WM 6 software developers: will you cross-train for WP7? - Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking

WM 6 software developers: will you cross-train for WP7? - Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking

This is a question for people who already develop apps for Window Mobile 6.X. Based on what we currently know about WP7 software development, do you plan to develop on that platform?

Who (developer) will come (created products) early in to the game (WP7) would most likely (have better chance) win (making more money).
Don't wait until there are 200,000 other apps.

I'm thinking about developing for WP7, but only because there will likely be not much competition at the beginning.
It's hard to make money in an app store that has already 200000 applications. WP7 will have a few hundred at best.
But despite that I'll likely develop for WP7, it's also likely that I'll switch to an Android device as my primary phone. That's because a platform with iPhone-like restrictions will not be able to suit my needs.
But since not much is known yet and things will clear up only at MIX, I'll wait until then till I answer this poll and the question about what I'll use for myself in the future.

Related

backwords compatible?

Hey Guys,
just starting a new threat to look for info and ideas about the next subject:
I am going to get a new phone in the next few months. Probable looking for an HTC with WP7.
I dont know if I will like it and I am wondering if these new phones could be flashed back to WM6.5.
Of course I would be willing to help with all kinds of WP7 ideas an tests, even though I am not a developper myself.
So, the statement for the new threat:
--Would it be possible/worhty to make 6.5 roms for WP7 hardware?--

Possible, sure. Likely, no. WM6.5 is, for most intents and purposes, dead. Highly unlikely that anyone puts in the time and effort needed to hack the bootloader, etc of specific devices in order to backport the old OS.

Sander101077 said:
Hey Guys,
just starting a new threat to look for info and ideas about the next subject:
I am going to get a new phone in the next few months. Probable looking for an HTC with WP7.
I dont know if I will like it and I am wondering if these new phones could be flashed back to WM6.5.
Of course I would be willing to help with all kinds of WP7 ideas an tests, even though I am not a developper myself.
So, the statement for the new threat:
--Would it be possible/worhty to make 6.5 roms for WP7 hardware?--
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think u can buy a 6.5phone now

If you're looking for backwards compatibility Windows Embedded Handheld 7 (based on WM6.x) is scheduled for the second half of 2011.

I've been following the conversations backstage and I don't think WM6.5 is dead at all. WP7 has a lot of shortcomings when it comes to business use. No copy/paste, less customization, etc. In fact, it is a dumb smartphone which is more geared for the iphone type consumer...those who would gladly trade endless customization and features for simplicity. Those who look at phones as fashion accessories and toys rather than something designed to get work done more efficiently. Sadly, the market for this is much much larger than the market for serious smart devices. Steve Jobs figured this out which is why the iphone is such a big hit, but most of us here have been looking at these folks going "wow, you can copy/paste now? Neat. I've been doing that for years!".
I had a list at one point which detailed all the things that WP7 does NOT do that 6.5 does and I can tell you that enterprise customers will not accept WP7 as a replacement to WM6.x. Many large companies out here are Microsoft partners with exchange servers, sharepoint, Office suitefor all employees and as a matter of IT support, they only support Windows Mobile so that their IT departments only have to manage MS products. If hey were to cut off SM6.x entirely while rolling out WP7, purchasing departments across the country would make a huge shift to blackberry. I'm certain that this is why RIM decided to go forward with plans for a new OS and why HP purchased Palm with their WebOS. They are both counting on MS doing this.
However, through conversations with various insiders at MS, it appears these fears are unfounded. Windows 6.5 is expected to continue being developed even into next year with possible future upgrades to the OS itself. WP7 will not support skins such as the HTC Sense interface, and because of the business users with business devices - particularly full qwerty devices like the Treo, Glisten, etc - they do expect to continue development.
I have heard rumors that there is actually a long development cycle planned for WM which involves the next iteration of Windows Mobile which will be renamed Windows 7 Professional. This would be in line with MS and their way of doing things and matches up nicely with Windows 7 and Windows Phone 7. I don't know how much of this part is true and how much is just rumors floating around backstage, but it makes a lot of sense.

kfreels said:
I've been following the conversations backstage and I don't think WM6.5 is dead at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..not dead....dying. The next iteration of 'WM' is BASED on 6.5.x and then in 2011 a version (based on WP7) with XNA and silverlight support is due.
Here's some info on the next 'WM' release....~note...this is not a 'WP' release so doesn't fall under the 'Windows Phone' umbrella, it's a new version of Windows Mobile - Embedded and it;s backwards compatible.
http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/press-releases/microsoft-outlines-commitment-future-enterprise-handheld-devices
..also mentioned here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=6917106&posted=1#post6917106

Moving to General .
I will delete this post with in a week or two, so it doesn't clutter.

kfreels said:
WP7 has a lot of shortcomings when it comes to business use. No copy/paste.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
God, I'm so tired of hearing this. There will be copy&paste, they said it often enough...
I had a list at one point which detailed all the things that WP7 does NOT do that 6.5 does and I can tell you that enterprise customers will not accept WP7 as a replacement to WM6.x. Many large companies out here are Microsoft partners with exchange servers, sharepoint, Office suitefor all employees and as a matter of IT support, they only support Windows Mobile so that their IT departments only have to manage MS products.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All the products you name (Office, Sharepoint, Exchange) are natively supported by WP7. Have you seen ANY WP7 demo video lately?

Microsoft: Bring on the Windows Phone 7 developers, developers developers

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...phone-7-developers-developers-developers/6867

Windcape said:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...phone-7-developers-developers-developers/6867
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the quoted materia:
ZDNet said:
Microsoft: Bring on the Windows Phone 7 developers, developers developers
On July 19, Microsoft began shipping out thousands of Windows Phone 7 (WP7) test units from LG and Samsung — running a near-final Technical Preview build of its new mobile operating system — to developers all over the world.
It’s crunch time for the Softies. They have developed a new phone platform from scratch that looks and feels different from what’s available from Apple, Android backers and RIM. They’ve built it, but will developers come? Microsoft is counting on its developer tools, its developer outreach programs and developer guarantees (in the form of payments if WP7 apps don’t sell as well as expected) to generate quantity and quality WP7 apps.
It’s no coincidence, as Engadget notes, that the packaging for the WP7 test units says “developers, developers, developers” on the box. (Sorry, there’s no Monkey Boy toy inside.) WP7 phone hardware and data plans are going to be key to determining how well WP7 will do versus its competition when those phones begin shipping in October in Europe and November in the U.S. But the number and kinds of apps that developers build are going to be make-or-break, as well.
There’s an evangelism team that’s been working for months to get developers on board with WP7. I’ve been talking to a number of them for the past few weeks so as to understand their big-picture goals and plans to try to win developers hearts and minds in a world where Windows Mobile is falling out of favor and iOS and Android are grabbing the attention and share.
Charlie Kindel, a 20-year Microsoft veteran who runs the Windows Phone Developer Experience, is one of the main forces behind Microsoft’s mobile developer outreach. After hearing about Microsoft’s renewed focus on mobile (and some of the big names named to run the development side of the project), Kindel joined the team in February 2009.
“Windows Phone is not an end game. It’s more of a means,” said Kindel. “Devs don’t think about apps being just client code any more. Over the past ten years, it has become the case that the core resides in the cloud, and rich clients ‘light it up’ for the user. That means it’s not so much about porting the same apps to different screens, it’s more about creating application components that cross all three screens. As your experience changes, what should an app look like and how do you eanble that? I want to make WP7 one of the screens that is supported.”
(The “cloud,” in this case, can mean Microsoft cloud services like Azure; cloud services someone else has built like Twitter; or services intrinsic to WP7, like notification, location, Xbox Live, etc., Kindel explained.)
I asked Kindel what has surprised him — and what he thinks might surprise others — about WP7. He talked about speaking to 7,000 mobile developers during a recent European tour. Relatively few had ever used Microsoft developer tools. (In one meeting, only about 10 percent had used Microsoft tools of any kind, he said.) When Microsoft showed them Visual Studio and Windows Phone development tools, “the reaction was one of disbelief,” he said, because “our tools were so much better.”
“Developers want to use the tools they already know, but at the same time, they want to know someone has thought holistically about the end-to-end process,” Kindel said. “Even though we are investing in all of these (development) areas, you don’t have to use all of our stuff.”
Microsoft’s message to developers considering WP7 is to use Silverlight or the XNA Framework to write applications and games for the forthcoming phones. And company officials are touting the transparency of the app approval process, as well as the fact that only Microsoft-certified applications will be available via the Windows Phone Marketplace as positives for developers and users.
No matter how good Microsoft’s developer story sounds, Kindel knows that it’s going to be tough to convince some developers there’s enough financial opportunity to make the development of a WP7 app worthwhile.
“The installed market is not very big, so we have to show them how much we’re investing to create a phenomenal user experience. We have to show marketing and engineering seriousness,” he said.
Microsoft hasn’t made any promises as to how many WP7 phone apps there will be out of the gate, or provided many names of developers already committed to the platform. Kindel said to expect a mix of big-name apps and brand-new ones.
“There are a type of apps users just want to exist — things like a service-enabled world clock or a level, for example,” he said. “Then there are apps no one has really thought about yet, with unique capabilities. We want there to be fantastic and beautiful examples of each.”
Who else is on Microsoft’s WP7 developer outreach team? It’s not just members of Microsoft’s Communications Business. I’ve got a “who’s who” post coming up, which includes WP7 developer team members from Microsoft’s Interactive Entertainment Business, Windows Live and the Developer Division.
In the meantime, any developers (or potential customers) have developer-focused questions for the WP7 team?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Viable development platform

Hey guys, question for those of you who already have apps created..
So far in the app store almost every app listed there is a "text based app that list of something". All the apps are like castrated silverlight applications, rather than an application designed for the phone. (seriously who needs to pay money for an xkcd app when you can just use the browser to visit xkcd.com).
To you app developers out there is this a viable development platform.. or should I be getting myself an android or iphone instead? I mean no sockets api.. come on.
I waited a year replace my BB with windows phone 7 and now that I have it in my hands.. not quite so sure it's going to be replaced. It's a really nice phone but the API is so restrictive

As a developer, the WP7 platform is very viable to me. I'm currently working on a game and will hopefully be submitting it for certification next week. I haven't used the Silverlight stuff yet, but the XNA part of the platform is an absolute joy to use. I'm a very long-time Android user and have owned a Nexus One since it launched. Even though I'm absolutely in love with my Nexus One, I will be jumping ship to WP7 solely because of how awesome the developer tools are.
I believe the Marketplace will start getting a bit more lively over the coming weeks. Developing good apps takes time. So, all the crappy ones will get posted first. I'm not saying all the current apps on the Marketplace are crappy, just that because the platform is so new, people are still working on their good apps. As far as I can tell, the platform has definitely attracted a lot of developer interest.
I program because I enjoy doing it; it's fun to me. However, not all programming is fun. For example, programming in Java (including Android development) is just not fun to me. I'm not saying that Java is bad language or that Dalvik is a bad runtime. I just don't enjoy developing for it. WP7, on the other hand, is great fun. I just really enjoy programming for it. Even if I was the only WP7 user in the world, I would probably still mess around with the platform just because I enjoy it and it's just a pleasant experience all around. Now, I know being a fun environment to program in doesn't automatically make the platform profitable for developers to focus on. I'm hoping, though, that the ease of development will attract a large number of developers and that will, in-turn, attract users. We'll see.
The API is pretty restrictive; I'll admit that. It is something you will have to consider when choosing a phone. If you want to write an SMS backup app or a ringtone changer, WP7 is not for you. WP7 has a lot of limitations at the moment and is missing some features I would love to have (socket support in the API being a big one.) However, I still see the platform as a whole as a step in the right direction. I hope it's successful enough that Microsoft continues to focus on it for a long time so we can see where it goes.
With Blackberry and Nokia trying to keep their customers from jumping ship, Android 3, WP7, and whatever Apple does with iPhone, 2011 is looking to be a very interesting year for smartphones. I'm definitely excited to see what happens with all of the platforms.
Note: sockets are supposed to be coming. I don't know if they're coming in the next update, but I have read that they will be added. Hopefully very soon.

I have to agree with what you just said...
I've been slowly learning how to use VS2008 for a while so I could make tools/games/media players for WM6.5. The problem was that the native UI was so ugly that I had to design everything from scratch if I wanted it to look pretty. The Direct3D tools for WM6.5 were hard to use because documentation was not easy to understand.
I just started using VS2010 and the difference is night and day... I'm learning to use XNA for 3D stuff and it's just so easy. There are video podcasts available as tutorials as well as all the stuff on websites. I, too, am having fun making this game...
On the other hand, I haven't tried iOS or Android programming.

Wm is still king

I am one of the faithful WM6.5 users. I do not care how cool my device is like most fake people that have moved on to Android & IPHONE cause their friends say they should. I feel that WM is still the best all around OS thought they all offer good things.
I would love to set goals for the future of WM6.5 like tryin to port FLASH 10.1. They did it for the IPHONE so it should be possible for WM. Also since we know software makers are walkin away from us for Android IPHONE and WP7 so i assume development for our devices will be done by the geniuses at XDA. I am not ready to walk away from this platform yet. I think we can keep it going for another year. Lets make 2011 the year of WINDOWS MOBILE. I want this thread to be dedicated to askin developers on XDA what new ideas they have for WM 6.1 & 6.5.
If you have ideas for games, ports, regedits, or programs to make our devices better please post below.
RULES:
DO NOT post tellin us what your favorite OS is or what the best OS is. Everyone knows that different people like different OS's.
DO NOT get upset if someone disagrees with your opinion.
DO NOT post unless you have something good to say about WM. This is a thread that is for people that want to better the WM OS not bash it. If you prefer Android or IPHONE then I am sure you can find somewhere to talk about how they are better than WM but do not do it here.
DO NOT tell us how WM is a dying OS, we know this already.
DO NOT post things such as your career or academic achievments and somehow link it to WM users being more or less intelligent then other users.
DO NOT post unless you love WM period!

WM is still very powerful operating system, but only if you can use it potential.
I wonder why people are more into simple-yet-dumb OS's which simply limit user.
On windows mobile, i can listen to music through bluetooth headset, share my 3g+ connection with laptop, browse html5 websites with flash and all of it on one device. And thats just beggining.
On the note to successor, WP7, where the hell is copy/paste? Dumb.
I love to copy commands from notepad to my remote desktop connection to use quick server commands.
BTW. I'm still laughing my ass off when i think about NO multitasking on iphone.

retsam88 said:
WM is still very powerful operating system, but only if you can use it potential.
I wonder why people are more into simple-yet-dumb OS's which simply limit user.
On windows mobile, i can listen to music through bluetooth headset, share my 3g+ connection with laptop, browse html5 websites with flash and all of it on one device. And thats just beggining.
On the note to successor, WP7, where the hell is copy/paste? Dumb.
I love to copy commands from notepad to my remote desktop connection to use quick server commands.
BTW. I'm still laughing my ass off when i think about NO multitasking on iphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We r using it to its potential as of now but it can be better. As I mentioned FLASH 10.1 which was ran on the HD2 in a video but was never released for WM instead went to Android and was ported to the IPHONE. I think we should start a movement to get these things workin on WM. There is alot of useless apps being made and I would luv to see the developers move towards making our devices better instead of making them "cooler."

I totally agree - I am using WM5/6 as target devices for my private and business projects.
But it seems like the wm programmers are in short the veterans of programming. A little crowd (did someone say 3 are a crowd?) of people that stand to their mobile os :-D

I've been using android for a while and I have to say wm has the throne in productivity. I mean, I can play in android but wm can satisfy my needs mare than any other os
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

I've had a WM device for 3 years now, and it's old news. There's not even one...ONE single good sports app. How is there not one. Developers don't care about WM6. It's been swept under the carpet and it's sad because I still have a Treo Pro.

I totally agree for this post !
I hope that we have soon the the new wm6.X builds (WM6.5 handset,etc...) with new features and new API !!!!!

Why they are moving for less sophisticated OS? That's easy to answer. When Palm was the king of the hill, do you know what was the best selling PDA they had? It was the entry level Zire22 (lowres screen, no sdcard support, ...). Why? Because the vast majority of users are lowend. They will never:
1. sync with their computers
2. install anything new, use what was given with the phone/pda
3. tweak it
We are NOT regular users, and also, we are NOT the biggest buying group. They are business oriented, will manufacture what sells.
You can see the same with games. Who remembers the best racing simulator ever done, GrandPrix Legends by Papyrus? It was so hard to drive that it fail miserably on sales, they shifted their focus to a more arcade kind of games (best sellers).

I totaly agree and i think the same way that Win Mo is the Best OS right now and will tell why.
1st because WinMo is fully Costumizable in every aspect not only visual, so WinMo is the base if you have a WinMo Device for few seconds you can make it look like iOS or Anroid or Windows Mobile 7 or.. you name it.. so the WindowsMobile 6.X give use the freedom and is like chameleon on the same time.
I dont like stupid OS like the iPhone just icons icons and icons everywhere..
Android... you move widgets and etc this is all of course now i have Android look with SBP shell and when im totally pissed of i aways can just uninstall it))))))))))))
Honestly i like Android only for the Speed, and if we talk here honest we all know that WindowsMobile 6.x is SLOW OS by saying slow i mean compared to Android or iOS but overal WindowsMobile is good OS for everyday use if you costumize and optimize it
The things that we can do with our devices NO ONE can do them with Android or iOS or WM7 this is the TRUE.
Im not programer but i believe that many interesting thing can be done if here have serious peoples who love WM 6.x
And i really think that WinMo is still the KING because give us Freedom.

Couldn't agree more!wm6.5.x is quite decent .But lack of latest apps will be a problem as many software companies are no longer providing WM supports.many of apps running on my Omnia2 are last released 1 or 2 years ago and some of them are just not designed for 800X480 screen.

I have been a WinMo supporter since 2003SE. And I recently upgraded from my Tilt2 to the HTC Surround. I have to admit WP7 just works better. But Do not get me wrong, I will never give up my Tilt2. I love that device. I love trying new ROMs, using RDP, and most of all the keyboard. And I will continue my support of WM until Microsoft officially calls it EOL.

You know why people move to android? It's easier to use, more finger friendly, widely supported in terms of games, based on linux (doesnt get much more open source if you really want to dig), and its generally more physically appealing. Even with SPB mobile shell Windows mobile 6.5 looks like crap. I have an HD2 but aside from theming it to look like WP7 I've been using it primarily for android because, hey, I like to have FUN with my phone. When is the last time a truly GOOD app was made for winmo? I remember warspear a few years back that's about it. You pull together enough people to completely rejuvenate a lifeless OS and I will eat my own shoe on youtube for all of you. Til then.
Android: Functionality/Fun
WP7: Ease of use/glorified feature phone
iphone: Overpriced status symbol
WM5/6: Flatline

i didnt like 6.5, i thought it sucked. i did like 6.1 tho.
either way its a dead os with no new apps being devloped or updated. will have to wait to see what wp7 brings

The things that we can do with our devices NO ONE can do them with Android or iOS or WM7 this is the TRUE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lmao. This dude is trapped in a fantasy world.
1. There's a reason that the Android section of this forum has more threads in Apps and Games, Themes, and Software development than Windows Mobile...and it hasn't even been around as long!
2. There's a reason everyone wants to mod their Windows Mobible devices to look like droids, AND even install the android os on their WM devices.
Tell me ONE thing, ONE THING that your WM6.5 or whatever it is can do, that an android phone can't, except make a less expensive paper weight?
I have a Palm Treo Pro, and as much as I love this phone, it's old news. I want a droid. WM is dead.

Long live to Windows Mobile!!
I think WM is far away to being considered as dead, of course MS wants that but it will depend on us users and Chefs & Devs to keep it alive!!
I still prefer it over WP7 and Android!
A voting for the best Developers award will be soon announced as a tribute to our beloved WM!

As much as I love WM, there is a simple fact, developers will develop for the popular platforms first and users will go where there are apps...just like games sell consoles, apps will drive smart devices.
WM is good, but MS has never made it easy to develop on, compact .net has always been lacking and you need a pro version of visual studio (with it's huge price tag). The fact that you can develop windows phone 7 using Visual Studio Express 2010 - which is free and that even the Pro version of Visual Studio 2010 does not support WM, shows that MS are doing their best to kill off WM, they've even removed many of the WebCasts for developing WM from their site so you can't even get the information you used to have available.
Add to that whole new area's of TV streaming devices and Tablets which are likely to support Android or iOS stuff and WM ends up being a smaller and smaller old and tired fish in a fast expanding pond of young competition.
You can see here, that the forum has already swung from WM!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=866626

I totally agree with meltwater. WM is going to die soon or later. In this moment I''m totally happy with my Touch HD, CHT 2.0 gave me all the flexibility on home page I was looking for. I can't find nothing on the other platforms I don't find for my actual phone, a part maybe something related to augmented reality.
On the other way I've already tried Android on my HD and works very well, considered all the limitations. Pity for camera and FM Radio, I use them so Android can't be for a daily use. But if they'll be able to solve last problems it's possible I'll start to use Android, more to start to use and learn the OS so to be ready when really new phones/tablet will come in the market. To say the truth I always liked big screens, so if next year a very good 7" tablet will be in the market with optimized Android (3.0?) and a price near 400 Euros, I'll definitely change the wagon.
About WP7, i appreciate Microsoft efforts, but I don't like at all . I've seen iPhone 4 and it's spectacular to see in use, nothing to say. But overpriced and not for me, similar to WP7 too many limitations.

meltwater said:
As much as I love WM, there is a simple fact, developers will develop for the popular platforms first and users will go where there are apps...just like games sell consoles, apps will drive smart devices.
WM is good, but MS has never made it easy to develop on, compact .net has always been lacking and you need a pro version of visual studio (with it's huge price tag). The fact that you can develop windows phone 7 using Visual Studio Express 2010 - which is free and that even the Pro version of Visual Studio 2010 does not support WM, shows that MS are doing their best to kill off WM, they've even removed many of the WebCasts for developing WM from their site so you can't even get the information you used to have available.
Add to that whole new area's of TV streaming devices and Tablets which are likely to support Android or iOS stuff and WM ends up being a smaller and smaller old and tired fish in a fast expanding pond of young competition.
You can see here, that the forum has already swung from WM!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=866626
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I feel that there are quite a few misunderstandings in this thread. The first is that if developers were going to wait for MS to come up with the goods in the first place, this forum would have never existed. In fact, we would have been relegated to overpriced and monetiseed structures for selling icons and ringtones like the Symbian people.
Secondly, a person's reason for getting an Android phone or iPhone are different to that of the Windows user. Blame it on the recession, blame it on the lower IQ of the average smartphone user, either way the basis of buying Android or iPhone is a product of good marketing and the science of hype,like buying an ipod when instead you could stick a stereo jack in your phone and have all the same stuff. I bought my first WM phone years before I saw an ad for it, because Im a bit of tech junkie and I jumped at the opportunity to have so much functionality in a mobile platform. The decorations came later.
Thirdly, the constant habit of WM users customising their handsets to look like other platforms is for entertainment purposes only, we knew we could always press the hard-reset button and put the hype behind us.
Fourth, Microsoft always does the same thing of taking away support or info when they bring out a new OS. As much as I love Windows Mobile, I dont like Microsoft. The only way to move new product is to stop support for the biggest seller, I remember when they did the same thing with Windows 98 when XP came out.
Conclusion: If youre looking to resell common-place technology (thats been around for years) to hyped-up half wits, then Android/iPhone is the way to go. Its hard to pull the wool over a real Windows Mobile user's eyes,unfortunately.

Windows FTW always

I started using windows mobile long long ago and for its time it was something epic. However, once other smartphones came into play they were just unable to keep the pace. Sure, your phone CAN do a lot more, theres customizations on windows phones that android may not have for a long time. However if they'd been smart and invested some time when phones became more finger friendly rather than still forcing stylus usage when devices with "touch" in the name came out then they'd be a lot better off. Android in some aspects will never catch winmo, you just can't get that open source and expect to have a clean user experience. In some ways we may never catch up to winmo, parts of what they did may still be considered revolutionary 20 years from now but in a lot of ways we passed up windows mobile 2 years ago when the g1 came to pass because we took what you could do, we made it easier to develop, and we made it user-friendly to start out with. Windows mobile will remain a developers phone... if you want to shell out an unreal price for software that you wont make money off of anymore due to it being a dead operating system.

Why I think WP7 users are worrying about nothing in terms of new apps neglect

It has been said that developers will code for Windows Phone 8 devices and neglect Windows Phone 7..
I totally disagree. If I was a developer I would code for WP7 and not WP8. Not immediately anyway. At launch of WP8, there would be millions more WP7 devices than WP8 devices so why limit my sales to WP8 devices only? WP7 apps work on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps ONLY work on WP8 devices. Therefore, I would code for WP7 devices which work on WP7 AND WP8. Makes total sense if I want to make more money from my app. I would wait several months before coding for WP8 to allow time for a large user base of WP8 owners to grow.

Considering WP7 market share is only 3.8% and the fact that it will continue to drop as people start to realize it's an orphaned platform, if WP8 is successful, I would think most developers would prefer to compile their apps for native WP8. The existing user base of WP7 phones will dry up quickly as people will upgrade at the end of their 1 or 2-year contracts.
For new developers, there's usually a good learning curve when it comes to an SDK, so I don't know why they would want to learn the WP7 SDK when they can jump right to WP8.

My company has developers that we are currently contracting for mobile development. We had an active project going on for WP7 for an enterprise app (business purposes).
The day of the announcement we halted all development... First idea was to stop coding immediately, get our hands on the new SDK, and re-write the app so it would be native to the new OS for when development is finished...
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
-We don't want to push this app for WP7 and have it not run natively on the new WP8...
-If we did stay with Windows Phone, we'd want it to be coded in the best way possible (using the SDK and coded best practice using the new development methods of WP8)...
-We don't want to halt development until we hear more as to WTF is going on with the SDK, development, and a product that isn't even out yet...
-We don't want to code for a platform that is obsolete (WP7).
And most of all, this applies not just to us, but to the typical dev writing a complex app... We don't have the time, funds, and budget to develop for both platforms WP7, and WP8...

Zhariak said:
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
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Click to collapse
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.

sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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Click to collapse
The only app I know of that is exclusive to WP7 is the Walgreen's app. If you're an old, broken down POS like me, it occupies the top left tile.

sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We are a small biz, this isn't your average tinker app... We chose a platform and OS to our liking... Don't have the resources to manage the same app over multiple platforms... That's the main reason why we aren't developing for both development methods for WP7 and WP8.

Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.

Laquox said:
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
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Click to collapse
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.

GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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Click to collapse
I can see that but we probably won't see a SDK for at least 3-6 months. No developer on the planet (that I can think of) is going to wait for that amount of time to get to market. And my take from the Summit was that the 7.5 SDK will not be obsolete as your app will run on WP8. By the time WP8 has a decent enough market share it will be time to refresh your app anyway (14-18 months from now) and then you can make the jump to the new SDK which from what I watched will be almost effortless and will allow native code.
Just my thoughts here.

GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.

Excellent post Wyn6. Well said. For anyone to say that WP7 SDK is dead..
well, they clearly need to change their mind pronto if they want to make money as a developer. I wish WP8 lots of success and think it will be successful, but there is still (and will be) plenty of life in WP7.

Very well said Wyn6. Can you please post it on some more threads here and around other forums where we have headless chickens running around wanting to jump the ship? I've run out of my thanks for today but will make sure they go where they are due. I will be quoting your post in numerous threads I've pulled my hair reading in past 48 hours! Hope you are ok with that

Wyn6 said:
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly what i want to say...
Countinuing supporting for Windows Phone 7 right now is the way the developer would do... Since Windows Phone 8/ Windows 8 user base would not reach to the point that WP7.5 has right now.

Wyn6 said:
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. I know in the video game console market there has been a long history of making new systems incompatible with previous generations of a console. The reason being is console makers wanted software developers to use the new console's new features. If left to their own devices software makers would be a lot slower to code solely for the new hardware. I don't know why smartphones wouldn't be the same.
The people that think they are clever waiting for Windows Phone 8 are going to be disappointed. The OS will have some great new characteristics that the MSFT built in apps will take advantage of on day one but I doubt there will be a deluge of Windows Phone 8 exclusive apps for a loooonnnngggg time. Who doubts this?

nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.

pillsburydoughman said:
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are right. Those 100,000 apps that school kids have made for WP7 in about 20 months might be better when a developer who pays $100 makes them. You will be alright.

Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.

nicksti said:
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.

lqaddict said:
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe people in here understand that if a software dev wanted to he/she could make software that would be compatible on WP7.8 and 8. What they are debating is if someone would. Because in theory they would want to include as many devices as possible.
Are OEMs going to make new handsets with WP7.8? If the answer is no then WP7 is dead. Dead as my goldfish Goldie.

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