Develop Bugs

My Thoughts on WP7

I will apologize in advance for this will be long and random because my thoughts bounce around like that
You know I've been trying to figure it all out lately. It seems a good portion of XDA (40% according to this poll) members are liking 6.5.3 moreso than 7. OK...fine. Then we have this huge population of people (34% according to this poll that plan on switching to another mobile OS. Not to mention the slew of people still pissed and wondering if the HD2 will be forward compatible. And the ever increasing amount of people still prefer Sense UI over WP7. Its all so much to address so I just stopped posting for a while...but I wonder?!?!? Is change really that bad?
Its like people have been *****ing for months wanting M$ to give us the scoop on WP7...we have it and we're pissed. lol. lets move past all this...I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people. Why don't we use this forum for sharing information and not bashing something that not out nor is it finished...we don't have even close to half of the info about this phone yet we are judging it based upon insubstantial information.
I remember when the videos started coming out, the guy at the booth mentions that copy/paste hadn't been implemented into the OS yet...then I read on this forum that there is NO COPY/PASTE. One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...so all current users can still have all the things they love currently for the next 10 years (with microsofts string of innovation..lol.) But lets be honest lets look at 6+ as a whole:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Blandness. This is the biggest issue. I've mentioned this before in other posts. Why is it everytime I want to accomplish anything in the OS I'm lead to an ugly white screen? Settings=ugly. SMS=ugly. Email=Ugly ANY SYSTEM MENU=UGLY. Its no wonder we all like Sense UI from HTC. Go to search and look up Contact Manager...see how many apps you get. Look up music players, lock screens, UI's etc. We got that by dozens. WHY? Now if you look at the scene currently...its because it gives us a choice to personalize, and I agree. But if you look back this was born out of a need for better rather than a need for different/personalization. Media player sucked...it was bland hard to navigate and generally a terrible experience. AC takes the best out the (Iphone) and creates it for WM (S2P)...sure it looks great but the need was much more for a BETTER player. Same can be said for S2U2 et al. HTC needed Manilla/sense to make our outdated UI look appealing/current. Everything about Sense is better than stock, Same can be said for Samsungs Touchwiz. These things were born out of necessity.
Terrible manufacturing. For all the HTC love out there, we all seem to let them get away with the fact that for the past 10 years (up until HD2) they have been giving us awesome software coupled with terrible hardware. It is a fact that we had incomplete/missing drivers and because of this alot of development was stalled or took forever to do. And image how much money HTC made off of shaving costs with shoddy manufacturing.
I won't got too indepth there but to keep it simple, M$ has those basic problems to deal with when making a new OS.
Now look at WP7, Easily top of the line spec sheet just for minimum requirements. I knew we were in for greatness when we got that bit of info. C'mon snapdragon as the minimum...awesome. This also gets rid of those Terrible manufacturing woes...so people can't just put out trash with the M$ OS on it. No more phones that crash from simple program openings. Also WVGA as the standard. No more need to build an app and then port it to other resolutions (WIN..) This coupled with the XNA/Silverlight development tolls make it possible to build for Xbox, PC, Mobile all at the same time...thats awesome and a huge win. Lastly, with Metro, there is no need for user skins on top of the UI. I know alot of you guys are newer to WM, but back in the day...I remember where the home screen was just "the homescreen"..the ugly green or blue homescreen with whatever info you needed on it (Weatherpanel FTW..anyone?) People realized how blah it was and you see where we are now. Look at Sense...its awesome because it gives you all the same info but it looks good and its faster. Metro has live tiles that give you access to EVERYTHING you need on your phone. Its not like the iphone where you check your SMS by tapping sms its something completely different, better. You go from the Hub into the universe that is you contacts, updated twitters, facebook, photos, sms, emails....everything at the touch of the finger...just by going into contacts. Thats awesome. Granted I don't uses twitter or facebook but its a nice touch. But if you look at it, there is still more room for innovation...HTC weather HUB anyone?
So yeah, a phone is a means of communications, a cell phone is a portable way of communication..Wp7 looks to be communication on steroids. I apologize for this extremely long message but i had to get out everything on my mind...in a place where people would read it. If you stuck it out, thank you. If you post telling me that was too long, you're absolutely right. Sorry

Good One..Well said, and I agree
devs, here do not trying to understand, if MS is closing one door, they are opening 100 doors as in the Xbox and other services can be synced among them, so this gives lot of opportunity to devs to come up with exciting creativve ideas.
Also, MS wnats to extend the scope with reaching out to all types of users and segments, and what they have showed here is the perfect thing.I am wwaiting for a review or hands on for a fully furnished and finished wp7 device.

I totally agree with you style. WM5 was a good os, but boring, Then here comes WM6.0 6.1 with touchflo. It was awesome, but the os sucked really bad, had a bunch of bugs and its just a let down. I had a htc 8125 which the phone itself was a resilient phone, but it just was sluggish with any of the OS except WM5 on it. I believe the phone couldn't exactly hold its own with the software but never the less it was slow running wm 6.5. The phone ran the os but I think windows had a bunch of problems. I am no longer using my 8125 cuz the poor thing died from a heart attack and major artery blockage from being used hard lol. I have a 8525 coming in and im planning on putting wm7 on it. Can't wait. I may be in for a let down but if I am then I still have a pretty cool phone coming to me, and it makes me look kinda cool for having it haha.

+1 good post b

A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.

gogol said:
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
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So true....but there will be a good amount of apps available on launch because its using the Zune software so it will be running Zune Apps...I have a few games on my Zune already...all are nice and smooth.
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
~style1~
Thank you guys for the comments, I already had my flame suit on..

Exactly i was thinking same. MS has to start from 0 ..... new os, new hw, new life.
I like the functionality of new OS but not the GUI . and i believe lot will change till final release. Still i will use wp7 if everything seems to work out.
personally i would like cab installation and customization on wp7
guess how cool it would be lil customization like Sense UI on wp7 .. or adding app by cab ....
but i think whatever wp7 will be, it will worth using.

style1 said:
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
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Hardware is up to par, only the buttons are not the same.
user Xmoo (does something with testing devices) stated on a dutch forum that there are HD2's running WP7 at HTC Taiwan.
Some user here stated (from internal sources) that it is defenitely possible to run WP7. All microsoft said till this date, that the HD2 doenst have the right buttons.
Im agree totally with you on this subject. Its certainly the only way for Microsoft to capture some decent marketshare.

@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.

pilgrim011 said:
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
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I don' remember reading or hearing confirmation that multitasking won't be available. They clearly stated many times that some kind of multitasking will be available. We shall know everything(or almost everything) after MIX.
Stop judging unfinished OS that you don't even know. What you're saying is pure speculation.

style1 said:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
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I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.

It is not specifically the OS, but the "platform" as a whole (screen size, screen type, number of buttons, processor speed, type of buttons, size of RAM, flip phone, slide phone, whatnot, etc).
And yes, it is painful to maintain a lot of builds specific for those kind of varieties.
Not to mention lack OS update because of phone operator / carrier lazyness (I bought my HTC Kaiser unlocked from HTC because I learned that T-Mobile is very slow giving update).
That's why I am glad that Microsoft is now taking control of the minimum hardware specification. Because that would be an advantage of current WM situation, especially to reduce fragmentation as much as possible.
Also the fact that Microsoft will provide OS update and hardware drivers (no more *****ing around about HTC missing drivers).
Instead of developer wandering around to "patch" their apps to work on fragmented platform, or figuring out tricks to over-come missing drivers. They can now enjoy leveraging their creativity for making consistent apps in well supported plaform (WP7).
RAMMANN said:
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
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style1 said:
I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people.
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The problem is not just that the HD2 won't get an upgrade, it's the combination of it not getting an upgrade plus the fact that WP7 will not be backwards-compatible with Windows Moble applications. That is something almost nobody saw coming.
The effect of the non-backwards-compatibility announcement has been to completely kill off Windows Mobile as a viable platform for commercial software development. (Look at Adobe, look at Skype - there will be plenty of other developers jumping ship, most of whom probably won't make any public announcement about it).
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
style1 said:
One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
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No, it's like you aren't paying attention.
There have been a number of announcements and leaks on the subject of multi-tasking, and we now have a pretty clear idea of how it will work. There can only be one foreground application. When a typical application is moved to the background, it will be suspended, but capable of being resumed from the same point when it is reactivated; it will not, however, be capable of actually doing anything while in the background. It will be possible for certain, select applications and services to actually run in the background rather than being paused, but this facility will be available only to applications developed by MS, or by their "partners" - i.e. phone manufacturers and networks.
style1 said:
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...
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Yes, but no one takes that claim seriously.

Shasarak said:
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
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If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Maybe we also forget that WM 6.5.x is brand new and just about to be launched. How many phones have you seen with a 6.5.3 stock ROM? There will still be plenty of new phones coming!
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....

RAMMANN said:
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
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The point is that no one realised WP7 would be "a completely different OS" - we were all completely blindsided by that. No one expected a situation where there wouldn't be a single WM6 application capable of running on WP7. If, as everyone expected and as HTC allowed HD2 buyers to believe, WP7 had been backwards-compatible, WM6.5 would still be a viable platform for commercial software: people could keep on developing software for WM6, secure in the knowledge that it would run just as well on WP7 when that eventually came along. The lack of backwards-compatibility has killed WM6 stone cold dead as a commercial platform: no sensible commercial developer will develop for it at all, anymore, they'll skip straight to WP7 (if they even bother with a Microsoft version at all). Until the no-backwards-compatibility announcement happened, an upgrade was much less important; now, it really matters.
RAMMANN said:
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
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That's such a ridiculous analogy I hardly know where to begin.... Well, for starters, consider just how much Windows 95 software actually ran under NT - pretty much all of it did, with the only exception being games. And for those who needed gaming support, MS continued with fresh releases based on the Windows 95 development stream - 98, 98SE even ME - all of which could run virtually all NT-oriented software as well. Those releases didn't dry up until after full support for DirectX (and even improved DOS emulation) ended up in the NT line.
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?

Shasarak said:
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
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Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications (yeah, we here will certainly do, but most users won't, and even most software companies won't). WM has been going along its way to oblivion in terms of market share, and, frankly, we didn't see many (if any at all) big software guys pumping investment into the platform anyway.
Apart from "big" Windows I'd guess the biggest MS-driven market is the XBox. So they chose compatibility with that "ecosystem" over the WM one. Disappointing as it is, I think that it was the right decision for MS really.

If I may address a few things...Aaron Woodman has gone on record saying that there will be multitasking on the phone. Let me just drop an excerpt:
"Among the details unveiled by him in that interview, we can count the fact that there will be multitasking in the new operating system, although previous rumors pointed otherwise. However, the approach on applications is a little different than before, as they will be included/integrated with the hubs Windows Phone OS 7 sports, and this is something that Microsoft is set to detail at MIX10. The main idea, however, is that apps will be there, and that they will be selected so as to be in line with the new user experience the company is trying to promote."
So maybe I as well as microsoft have NO IDEA WHAT MULTITASKING IS. I'm not trying to make opinions and substantiate them with evidence...I'm looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. M$ says there will be multitasking in their platform then I have to conclude that there will be multitasking even if I haven't personally seen the way it will be handled on a bigger scale. Trying to prove otherwise without any info is just reckless. Now of course it doesn't seem that they are multitasking in the traditional way and I am curious to see exactly how the system is multitasking but if I may speculate I think it deals with the back button. It seems everytime you switch tasks you press the home button then go into your hub of what you are going to do...once you finish you press the home button and go into the next task...since we know the back button doesn't lead to the Homescreen, maybe the back button leads through all the previous tasks in the order that you went through them. That would be simple and unobtrusive. Thats just my speculation based upon the videos I've seen so far...prove me wrong please.
Also about being blindside you're right it was a shock to most. I think M$ has gone on record saying they will still support WM as WPclassic(WPC) so i don't think you guys have just been outright abandoned...but. I wonder, with all the issues that you are labelling about WP7 but still complaining that the HD2 wont be able to upgrade to it, which side of the fence do you really sit on. You can't really be on both sides. But while I'm being prudent HTC has gone on record many times saying the HD2 will be upgradable to WP7, M$ has said that it doesn't plan on upgrading the device. They site the three button crap as a reason but interestingly enough Tony Wilkinson, Microsoft Australia's Business Operations Director, has said that "there are some hardware components that the HD doesn't have." Could this be why the HD2 coming to Tmoble seems to be a beefier version? We don't know but its always fun to speculate. Since M$ hasn't offically released a FULL spec list we have no idea but we will know at MIX10. Hell maybe M$ has no plan on upgrading HD2 but they are leaving it solely up to the manufactures to deliver on that which is why there are 2 conflicting views coming from HTC and M$...who knows right now. But based on the facts these are likely conclusions.
I won't bother with any other thing said because its more off topic..I don't really care whether people think that people will stop developing on 6.5.X just because WP7 is released... they obviously underestimate this site. Hell what more do people need?
~style~

vangrieg said:
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications
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HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.

Shasarak said:
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
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Some of them will, some won't. I am an HD2 user and I don't care, I don't want to own it for another year anyway, I'd happily exchange it right now if there were something better. I'm sure most HD2 users don't even know what OS their device is running (I know my wife wouldn't know). So we're talking about a few hundred thousand users max. And that's just the user side. A commercial WM developer network is pretty much non-existent right now, apart from SPB, Resco and a couple other small firms.

Well done. I completely agree. I'm looking forward to it. Most users are just bitter and don't want change. I think the main worry with the cooks or other users is that is that it won't offer the amount of customization of 6.5 and below, but they fail to forget that the Iphone is boring until you jailbreak, in the process opening up many possibilities. I think the same will be said for WP7S

Windows Phone 7 = bad iPhone

Below is just my opinion, and take it as such.
Windows 7 dissapoints me beyond belief. In fact, teverything about it is the "worst case scenario".
<rant>
1. Home page.. I can sum it up in "WTF". The home page that takes up about 80% of the screen (so even big screens look gimped, small and shifted to the side), with a huge area on right and up completely wasted for nothing. Ugly plain-colored squares, with no design consistency (big, small, long, tall) with pieces of information that make no sense.
2. Social networking - as for me, I really don't give a flying turd about my neighbor's ugly kid drawing an image of a bird on the wall with his drool. Nor do I care that much about viewing hundreds of pictures of my friend visiting his grandma. Thanks for covering my home screen with that.
3. Xbox - I don't even have an xbox, nor do I plan to buy one. Neither do most of the business-oriented people who buy a PDA. And even if I did, would I really be so obsessed about my "avatar" or "points" or whatever they use, that I need it on my home page?
4. Emailing - the heart of a PDA. For some people, even more important than the calling itself. By looking at the presentation videos 7's email system is complete trash. It gives you no real "sense" for the inbox, there is no good view to browse your emails properly. Swiping through pages to see "flagged" "unread" on different screens creates a feeling that you're not getting the whole picture, and you're missing stuff. Besides, it has no good integration with contacts that HTC's Sense provides pretty darn well.
5. Interface in general - animation effects blow. They are kind-of OK for today's standards, but when 7 is released, they will already be boring and plain. They are not looking forward, the "flow" of it is already outdated and will be completely destroyed by any new interface that Android or especially Apple will no-doubt deliver in near future. Besides, how awesome it is to see parts of words all the time? "Peop" turns into "ople", so if you slide left-and-right real fast, you can actually see a whole word..... freaking idiotic.
6. Customization... I'm just speechless. This is the only thing that I could raise as WM's, perhaps, only advantage over Android and iPhone. Now they are officially going over to the Apple's way of treating customers like money-packed down-syndrome drooling kids that fall into a seizure when they hear words "cab" or "tweak". After hanging in xda-developers for so long, and writing my own stuff for the PDA, this alone is way more than enough to make me never even look at WM devices again.
7. "Copy and paste" and "multitasking".... I cannot believe that there is even a controversy over WM device having those 2 features... I don't even know what else to say about this. Insane.
Microsoft is obviously a huge Apple fanboy now. They are accepting their market strategies and their development practices and are scared ****less to look ahead and develop something brilliant.
At this point, with current info, WM7 is nothing more than a bad, extremely poorly designed iPhone interface mod. It's already outdated, already looks inefficient, boring and just waiting to be forgotten. Heck, age-old HTC Home plugin looks way better than WM7, and is actually more useful for everyday tasks.
</rant>
Flame away.

Sadly I couldn't agree more... I had been waiting for the mytical complete revamping of the Windows Mobile OS, and when the first real info came out in Spain, I was stoked by what they were presenting (although I couldn't understand the oddly offset homescreen squares)... This week has been nothing but disappointment after disappointment It seems they took all the bad plays out of the iphone playbook (which apple has mostly since corrected) and decided to repeat them. I was hoping for an windows 'iphone' that righted all the wrongs of Apple:
-Controlled Interfaces (both in Syncronizing information with PC and in application installs)
-Real Copy and Paste
-File System
-Use as a USB flash Drive when connected to computer
-Removeable media
Windows Mobile, was ugly and slow, but useful once you knew it. I just feel now that this will be pretty, but no better than a 1G iphone

i dont disagree with any of your points

Yes, I also agree. Microsoft has just threw out everything, that was keeping Windows Mobile different, usable and customizable. I use copy&paste, multitasking and today plugins every day and I can't live without it. I won't use Windows Phone 7, I'd better wait if somebody makes a mobile phone running full desktop Windows (I think it will be someday, now we have HD2 with 1GHz CPU and we are also able to boot Ubuntu on HTC devices).

Microsoft is mitigating all of the flaws of Windows Mobile. You anti-WP7 guys seem to be forgeting that the WM platform was quickly becoming a marketplace failure. Whether you like iPhone or not, there are plenty of things Apple did right (which is why they're kicking a** right now). If you want to call modern smartphone users dumb, then you have to realize that the entire general public is "dumb" and "dumb" people is where the money is. Tech geeks are just not a large enough market to build a platform around. I bet in a few years, Android will become the NEW Windows Mobile (and I mean that in a bad way )
I for one, love the way MS is now focused on user-experience and integration (hubs) as opposed to a bunch of unrelated apps. I was wishing for that long before I knew what a iPhone or WP7 was.
Apple's idea of tying together all of it's products is a winning strategy. MS is the only company that can top Apple at this particular strategy: Zune, XBox, Office, Exchange, FaceBook (MS owns a huge share) and etc.. They have already opened up the platform for development even though the phone isn't even released yet.
MS seems to be really focused on people that actually use their phones to enhance their lives, as opposed to people using their lives to enhance their phones. Good job MS!

WhyBe said:
Microsoft is mitigating all of the flaws of Windows Mobile. You anti-WP7 guys seem to be forgeting that the WM platform was quickly becoming a marketplace failure. Whether you like iPhone or not, there are plenty of things Apple did right (which is why they're kicking a** right now). If you want to call modern smartphone users dumb, then you have to realize that the entire general public is "dumb" and "dumb" people is where the money is. Tech geeks are just not a large enough market to build a platform around.
I for one, love the way MS is now focused on user-experience and integration (hubs) as opposed to a bunch of unrelated apps. I was wishing for that long before I knew what a iPhone or WP7 was.
Apple's idea of tying together all of it's products is a winning strategy. MS is the only company that can top Apple at this particular strategy: Zune, XBox, Office, Exchange, FaceBook (MS owns a huge share) and etc.. They have already opened up the platform for development even though the phone isn't even released yet.
MS seems to be really focused on people that actually use their phones to enhance their lives, as opposed to people using their lives to enhance their phones. Good job MS!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whether MS is taking the most profitable approach or not, is a different topic. I do agree that majority of users are "dumb" and freak out at anything that takes more than 5 clicks to do. However, I HIGHLY doubt they can catch on to Apple and give simple users a better experience than iPhone already gives. If we consider the release timeframe, and high possibility of iPhone 2, MS has picked a wrong battle and will fail miserably while we all laugh our asses off at the fugly interface that WM7 has.
However, I'm speaking from my own perspective, and what *I* want and need in a phone. Fortunately for me, WM, even having worst interface ever (thankfully fixed by HTC), still catered to all my tweaking/developing needs. I'd even say to the needs of the majority of people at xda - this is a developer forum after all, not an Apple fan-club.
And from that I can assume that the approach that MS is taking will make "advanced" users like me and people here at xda to feel like MS has failed them and abandoned them, turning to "dumb users". And that never feels good.

DarkDvr said:
Whether MS is taking the most profitable approach or not, is a different topic. I do agree that majority of users are "dumb" and freak out at anything that takes more than 5 clicks to do. However, I HIGHLY doubt they can catch on to Apple and give simple users a better experience than iPhone already gives. If we consider the release timeframe, and high possibility of iPhone 2, MS has picked a wrong battle and will fail miserably while we all laugh our asses off at the fugly interface that WM7 has.
However, I'm speaking from my own perspective, and what *I* want and need in a phone. Fortunately for me, WM, even having worst interface ever (thankfully fixed by HTC), still catered to all my tweaking/developing needs. I'd even say to the needs of the majority of people at xda - this is a developer forum after all, not an Apple fan-club.
And from that I can assume that the approach that MS is taking will make "advanced" users like me and people here at xda to feel like MS has failed them and abandoned them, turning to "dumb users". And that never feels good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually love the new WP7 interface...giant words, big active tiles and all. I had Sense in my TP2 for about a month and finally decided that while it was pretty looking, it was not efficient at all. To much pressing and swiping to get to where I needed to go. Back to Titanium for me.
I think in due time, there will be a hacking community around WP7 just like this one...maybe even THIS one
Advanced users can fend for themselves. Isn't this how XDA grew? I'm sure it'll happen again with WP7.
iPhone 2 ? Naw, I think Apple has shot it's load and is just going to work on building and maintaining the market it has. I don't expect anything revolutionary out of Apple for a while (at least as far as smartphones go). I don't think they'll do what MS did and ditch the old iPhone for a new iPhone platform. MS was sort of forced to ditch WM if they wanted to compete.

WhyBe said:
I actually love the new WP7 interface...giant words, big active tiles and all. I had Sense in my TP2 for about a month and finally decided that while it was pretty looking, it was not efficient at all. To much pressing and swiping to get to where I needed to go. Back to Titanium for me.
I think in due time, there will be a hacking community around WP7 just like this one...maybe even THIS one
Advanced users can fend for themselves. Isn't this how XDA grew? I'm sure it'll happen again with WP7.
iPhone 2 ? Naw, I think Apple has shot it's load and is just going to work on building and maintaining the market it has. I don't expect anything revolutionary out of Apple for a while (at least as far as smartphones go). I don't think they'll do what MS did and ditch the old iPhone for a new iPhone platform. MS was sort of forced to ditch WM if they wanted to compete.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, in BEST case scenario (for MS), that's what will happen. However, for me, that's wishful thinking.
Will there be WM7 hacks? Yeah, of course. Question is, how easy/available/useful they will be. WM6 platform, even with all its deficiencies, is a nice and easy platform to tweak/expand. So far, WM7 looks to be complete opposite of that (just look at their idea of branding and marketplace), and few hacks that will be released won't make up for anything. Especially when 90% of all developers will switch to a more friendly platform (perhaps even Android).

DarkDvr said:
Especially when 90% of all developers will switch to a more friendly platform (perhaps even Android).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I, personally would want to develop for a platform where I can turn a profit. Is Android at that stage yet (I'm asking, I don't know). If Android is so open and customizable the way WM was/is, then inevitably it's going to suffer the same fate as WM.
It seems that MS is making WP7 very developer friendly. What's wrong with developing for WP7 ?

WhyBe said:
I, personally would want to develop for a platform where I can turn a profit. Is Android at that stage yet (I'm asking, I don't know). If Android is so open and customizable the way WM was/is, then inevitably it's going to suffer the same fate as WM.
It seems that MS is making WP7 very developer friendly. What's wrong with developing for WP7 ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android isn't going anywhere. It may not be as explosive as iPhone, but it's here to stay, if google does it right. And google pretty much always does everything right.
Problem with programming for WM7, and I'm going on a limited info that's curretly available, is that MS is putting down a "draconic" ((c) engadget) restrictions on anything that comes onto WM7 devices. Everything has to be within standards and everything has to go through the marketplace. In fact, reviewers are saying that methods that MS is implementing on WM7 infrastructure are much more strict that even Apple's. That spells "BAD NEWS" for me in big, bold letters.

DarkDvr said:
Android isn't going anywhere. It may not be as explosive as iPhone, but it's here to stay, if google does it right. And google pretty much always does everything right.
Problem with programming for WM7, and I'm going on a limited info that's curretly available, is that MS is putting down a "draconic" ((c) engadget) restrictions on anything that comes onto WM7 devices. Everything has to be within standards and everything has to go through the marketplace. In fact, reviewers are saying that methods that MS is implementing on WM7 infrastructure are much more strict that even Apple's. That spells "BAD NEWS" for me in big, bold letters.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the only way to ensure that the "dumb" consumers get a great experience. The average consumer doesn't want to tweak and figure out things. They want to quickly download intuitive apps that just work. Perhaps MS will be able to minimize "garbage apps" (though there are bound to be some). Look at the success of the App store. I think part of it's success is that their app store wasn't so fragmented like the WM market is. One place to download and purchase all apps for the platform (straight to the phone at that!) is a lot easier than endlessly Googling to find what you need on some random site. Again, this is catering to the "dumb" people and not the geeks.

WhyBe said:
This is the only way to ensure that the "dumb" consumers get a great experience. The average consumer doesn't want to tweak and figure out things. They want to quickly download intuitive apps that just work. Perhaps MS will be able to minimize "garbage apps" (though there are bound to be some). Look at the success of the App store. I think part of it's success is that their app store wasn't so fragmented like the WM market is. One place to download and purchase all apps for the platform (straight to the phone at that!) is a lot easier than Googling for an hour to find what you need on some random site. Again, this is catering to the "dumb" people and not the geeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, I won't argue that simplicity of use is paramount. However, I do see a trend of separation between regular users and developers.
And, although I do agree that developers seeking profit will develop on the most used platform, there is a also a huge factor of developers not wanting to use a device that limits their desire for customization.
I guess the question is which of those factors will overpower another. And will we have to buy 2 devices - one for "work", one for the "soul"

DarkDvr said:
Yep, I won't argue that simplicity of use is paramount. However, I do see a trend of separation between regular users and developers.
And, although I do agree that developers seeking profit will develop on the most used platform, there is a also a huge factor of developers not wanting to use a device that limits their desire for customization.
I guess the question is which of those factors will overpower another. And will we have to buy 2 devices - one for "work", one for the "soul"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the industry is headed towards the user-friendly way of doing things. Hackers will fend for themselves (as always). Smartphones are only going to get more popular to the point where they are as common as the regular cell phone. A typical WM device could never support that kind of market. Only devices like WP7, iPhone, Pre and etc. will be appealing to this huge market of non-geeks.

WhyBe said:
I think the industry is headed towards the user-friendly way of doing things. Hackers will fend for themselves (as always). Smartphones are only going to get more popular to the point where they are as common as the regular cell phone. A typical WM device could never support that kind of market. Only devices like WP7, iPhone, Pre and etc. will be appealing to this huge market of non-geeks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And that's excellent. However, that doesn't mean that the device should be "locked" and limited to modification. The idea behind the android is probably the most appealing to me - it's a very user-friendly interface that is completely open to any modification, including the end-user modification like moving stuff around, throwing widgets on the screen, etc.
In my mind, my perfect WM7 would be:
1. Build on a new platform, now the WinCE crap that gave us WM6.
2. Be very open to modification and adjustment, hopefully even moreso than WM6.
3. Not be locked in any way, allowing advanced users to tinker with devices.
4. For end users, come with an excellent user interface straight from the box. Openness to tinkering and ease of use are NOT mutually exclusive, they go hand-in-hand very well.
5. Platform absolutely must support all options available - meaning things like SDcard support, copy/paste, DEFINITELY multitasking (WTF, back to stone ages??), etc. Even though first phones might not have it all, there should be an existing support for it, so that companies/developers can take advantage of them.
I guess my ranting is due to the fact that Microsoft saw "gold" in Apple's ideas and went overboard with that. Along the way they completely ignored to include the potential into the device. Think of the military - you create, say, a tank - even if it's super-awesome today, if there is no room for potential improvements - it's a pile of useless metal in several years.

DarkDvr said:
And that's excellent. However, that doesn't mean that the device should be "locked" and limited to modification. The idea behind the android is probably the most appealing to me - it's a very user-friendly interface that is completely open to any modification, including the end-user modification like moving stuff around, throwing widgets on the screen, etc.
In my mind, my perfect WM7 would be:
1. Build on a new platform, now the WinCE crap that gave us WM6.
2. Be very open to modification and adjustment, hopefully even moreso than WM6.
3. Not be locked in any way, allowing advanced users to tinker with devices.
4. For end users, come with an excellent user interface straight from the box. Openness to tinkering and ease of use are NOT mutually exclusive, they go hand-in-hand very well.
5. Platform absolutely must support all options available - meaning things like SDcard support, copy/paste, DEFINITELY multitasking (WTF, back to stone ages??), etc. Even though first phones might not have it all, there should be an existing support for it, so that companies/developers can take advantage of them.
I guess my ranting is due to the fact that Microsoft saw "gold" in Apple's ideas and went overboard with that. Along the way they completely ignored to include the potential into the device. Think of the military - you create, say, a tank - even if it's super-awesome today, if there is no room for potential improvements - it's a pile of useless metal in several years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, we don't know what's truly under the hood of WP7 yet. We know it has multitasking, it is just highly restricted. Copy and paste can be implemented within the app (MS'es alternative to C&P seem pretty slick though). I don't see WP7 as a blatant copy of Apple, MS just acknowledged some winning points of the iPhone platform and followed suit and improved upon it (that's smart business actually). I think MS concept of the OS is far more advanced than what iPhone delivers. I think the Pre and WP7 are the first of the "new style" of OS'es. Android sort of reminds me of WM.
Again, I think all of the customization and openness hinders the platform because you end up with so many incompatibilities and inconsistencies in the user experience. Even HTC Sense "broke" alot of the things I was used to in the standard WM interface (MS Voice Command and PhonEx just didn't work properly or consistently, for example). God only knows what would "break" if I installed some other WM shell.
I love the premise in WP7 that apps are supposed to work together. I don't know how this is going to play out in the real world, but if this is facilitated at the OS level, I don't see why it shouldn't be a great feature.
Some of the so-called Apple limitations are actually advantages for them (single form factor, only one App store highly regulated, lo-res graphics for speed, locked-in iPod/iTunes audience, no multitasking to possibly damage the user-experience).
If an experience on a platform is going to be consistent and pleasurable, it has to be highly controlled. You can't have a free-for-all and expect everything to just work together nicely. WM and Android are perfect examples of free-for-all, let's see how they do in the current market.

Locked down OS?
Time for the next generation of hackers.
Get out the sharpening stone and hone your edge.
A system is meant to be broken, not remain intact.
Go XDA

Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I don't share yours though:
WhyBe said:
I think the Pre and WP7 are the first of the "new style" of OS'es.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see anything that's "new style" about it. Cut words, ugly squares, "pushable" buttons look identical to the labels, which creates confusion.. etc etc.
WhyBe said:
Again, I think all of the customization and openness hinders the platform because you end up with so many incompatibilities and inconsistencies in the user experience. ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So it's better not to have any at all? It's like saying "oh, we should have just 3 models of cars on the market, so that everything's consistent and buyers won't be confused". Openness and customization only help any platform greatly, it doesn't create incompatibilities and inconsistencies. Bad programmers do.
WhyBe said:
I love the premise in WP7 that apps are supposed to work together. I don't know how this is going to play out in the real world, but if this is facilitated at the OS level, I don't see why it shouldn't be a great feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're missing a word.. "I love the premise in WP7, that MICROSOFT'S apps are supposed to work together." We all know how bad their software can be, and now u won't even have a chance to fix it. Sit around for years, hoping that new version will fix the bugs and not introduce a mirriad of others.
WhyBe said:
Some of the so-called Apple limitations are actually advantages for them (single form factor, only one App store highly regulated, lo-res graphics for speed, locked-in iPod/iTunes audience, no multitasking to possibly damage the user-experience).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude you're so anti-choice. I have a very different view. Choice is what creates competition and improvement. It's what drives the progress. Single form-factors, locked software, penalties for tinkering (jailbreak) - it all hinders the progress, it cannot possibly be better.
WhyBe said:
If an experience on a platform is going to be consistent and pleasurable, it has to be highly controlled. You can't have a free-for-all and expect everything to just work together nicely. WM and Android are perfect examples of free-for-all, let's see how they do in the current market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Openness of current WM platform is about the only plus it has, not its drawback. I think that's pretty much established.
Besides, as I've said before, you don't have to pick between a smooth experience and openness for customization. WM7 could have an excellent setup right from the box, if you like what they've made, even maybe the one they have now. Nobody says that at the same time it cannot have support for developer's imagination. Nobody besides MS's analytics who decided that copying Apple will bring them a big buck. Honestly, no, it won't.

chiks19018 said:
Locked down OS?
Time for the next generation of hackers.
Get out the sharpening stone and hone your edge.
A system is meant to be broken, not remain intact.
Go XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
>.< That's not the point.

DarkDvr said:
So it's better not to have any at all? It's like saying "oh, we should have just 3 models of cars on the market, so that everything's consistent and buyers won't be confused". Openness and customization only help any platform greatly, it doesn't create incompatibilities and inconsistencies. Bad programmers do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All consumer cars have the exact same interface. Steering, acceleration and brakes...
You're missing a word.. "I love the premise in WP7, that MICROSOFT'S apps are supposed to work together." We all know how bad their software can be, and now u won't even have a chance to fix it. Sit around for years, hoping that new version will fix the bugs and not introduce a mirriad of others.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't had experience with BAD MS software. It's always worked for me. Now the third-party stuff...that's a different story. If things like social networking and cloud computing are implemented on the OS level (instead in the app), it will be easier for third party apps to work in conjunction. Bing on the OS level will be a lot better than a Bing app. Same for Voice Command (if MS uses it).
Dude you're so anti-choice. I have a very different view. Choice is what creates competition and improvement. It's what drives the progress. Single form-factors, locked software, penalties for tinkering (jailbreak) - it all hinders the progress, it cannot possibly be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This philosophy is failing WM and Android.

WhyBe said:
I haven't had experience with BAD MS software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then you've never used Windows ME or anything before Windows 98.
Let's just agree to disagree =)

is the MS-HTC relationship going downhill

think about it:
1-they are preventing HTC from making their own UI (the main difference between HTC and all the other makers). basically preventing them of having the advantage they had over other Winmo phone makers
2-they prevented hd2 from getting wp7 over really stupid reasons (it has 5 buttons instead of 3, and it has removable flash memory)
3-they only allowed capacitive screens for WP7. the UI with be big and too simplified like an iphone. this will render HTC patent for their future touch technology that allows for the use of stylus on capacitive screen to allow for accurate touch like resistive screens
4-htc has more Android phones in development.
5-none of the 3 demonstrated (samsung.Asus, LG) WP7 phones came from them.
6- they went on the record saying that Apple-HTC lawsuit might be a good thing.
I get the feeling that HTC are very annoyed with what Microsoft is going with WP7 like the rest of us

Exactly what I was thinking about... and I think it's Microsofts very dirty trick as HTC was keeping Windows Mobile alive so MS should be more grateful!

I'm sure their relationship is great and HTC has some wonderful WP7S phones in the works. I'm sure HTC knew details about WP7 phones long before we did. And they start designing them long before we are aware of them.
HTC and MS will be just fine.

No
1. They're preventing everybody. TouchWiz, Panels, all that. Consistency. HTC had just been the most drastic coverup that everybody latched onto and used to mock Microsoft.
2. HD2 is a different animal. HD2 will be an old old phone at the end of the year. Why would anybody expect official support? More to the point, do you really believe that HTC would prefer to send you free OS upgrades rather than have you buy a new HD3?
3. Huh?
4. Of course they do. Diversified strategy makes sense and they have the scale for it. Microsoft has multiple hardware makers and HTC has multiple software makers
5. Those guys were aching to get their machines in the limelight for once.. it's always about HTC. Last year they showed off 6.5 on a Diamond2 and TouchPro2. XDA readers are so attached to HTC the simple existence of 3 non-HTC phones bothers them
6. Context, context. It's not like they said "Yeah Apple, kick HTC's ass!"
I get the feeling HTC is ready to sell Windows phones like hotcakes again
THE GRIZZ said:
think about it:
1-they are preventing HTC from making their own UI (the main difference between HTC and all the other makers). basically preventing them of having the advantage they had over other Winmo phone makers
2-they prevented hd2 from getting wp7 over really stupid reasons (it has 5 buttons instead of 3, and it has removable flash memory)
3-they only allowed capacitive screens for WP7. the UI with be big and too simplified like an iphone. this will render HTC patent for their future touch technology that allows for the use of stylus on capacitive screen to allow for accurate touch like resistive screens
4-htc has more Android phones in development.
5-none of the 3 demonstrated (samsung.Asus, LG) WP7 phones came from them.
6- they went on the record saying that Apple-HTC lawsuit might be a good thing.
I get the feeling that HTC are very annoyed with what Microsoft is going with WP7 like the rest of us
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

ZaxXx said:
I think it's Microsofts very dirty trick as HTC was keeping Windows Mobile alive so MS should be more grateful!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dirty trick? Look at it from MS perspective: HTC is only known to you because at one point in time Microsoft picked them out of other Taiwanese manufacturers to be the guys to build the hardware for MS platform. They provided the platform which allowed HTC to become a relatively well-known brand (compare this to Apple's contract manufacturers). This was a fruitful partnerships for both companies. And what did HTC do? They were among the first to rush to support software which is a) free, b) opensource and c) coming from the largest and most dangerous official corporate MS hater in the world. Not only did HTC just release devices with that software, but they were key in improving it, whether by hiding the ugly default look or by compensating for the crippled unfinished nature of it (e.g. Exchange support). And it was also done with full knowledge of the fact that MS is having difficult time redefining their platform strategy, knowing that this was the perfect timing to hit MS when it's most vulnerable.
This is one of the larger stabs in the back in recent history of corporate partnerships. If I were Ballmer, I'd strike back with a vengeance, and that would be serious. If Jobs were Ballmer, you'd see bloodshed. Microsoft, on the other hand, is known to be very good in keeping relationships, and I think they're treating HTC very well. Maybe even better than they deserve.

What's with this whole imaginary HTC vs MS battle? Has there been some official "we are fighting" press release from either of them?
HTC is a hardware manufacturer which makes hardware for various platforms. MS is a software manufacturer that makes software for various platforms (they even have an iPhone app or two). These companies are fully aware what's happening years before the public is.
HTC makes money selling you NEW hardware (HD3)...not software updates to old hardware (HD2 this December). I'm sure HTC is hard at work on 2nd generation WP7 devices and is preparing to release is 1st generation of WP7 devices. There's nothing to fuss about, it's business as usual.
The money saved in the "free" Android OS is probably spent on development. This development cost is built into MS'es fee, so it's all a balance. The "free" thing is a misnomer. Somewhere in the development process Android has a cost.
HTC is fully free to put Sense in Android devices, let's see how Android Sense stacks up against WP7 next year The 3rd party UI shell game was a symptom of failure on MS'es part. They're now correcting this shortcoming of WM with Metro.

while HTC rather sell you the HD3 rather than upgrade the hd2, remember that equipped the hd2 with more than double the memory (576MB/1GB internal flash) than their previous phone. i find it hard to believe that they did that without having a plan to allow the HD2 to be upgradeable.
anyway, i really hate whare MS going with WP7, and i dont intend to get it with these many stupid iphonish limitations. its as if they dont know anything about what made their own winmo a good OS... but i digress

THE GRIZZ said:
while HTC rather sell you the HD3 rather than upgrade the hd2, remember that equipped the hd2 with more than double the memory (576MB/1GB internal flash) than their previous phone. i find it hard to believe that they did that without having a plan to allow the HD2 to be upgradeable.
anyway, i really hate whare MS going with WP7, and i dont intend to get it with these many stupid iphonish limitations. its as if they dont know anything about what made their own winmo a good OS... but i digress
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WinMo failed marketwise...face it. It's so-called advantages were also it's flaws.
Perhaps at some point in time before release dates were established, HD2 was supposed to be a WP7 phone?

Yeah, and also TMo HD2 has this Blockbuster app, right? That's a reason to have more storage already.

vangrieg said:
Dirty trick? Look at it from MS perspective: HTC is only known to you because at one point in time Microsoft picked them out of other Taiwanese manufacturers to be the guys to build the hardware for MS platform. They provided the platform which allowed HTC to become a relatively well-known brand (compare this to Apple's contract manufacturers). This was a fruitful partnerships for both companies. And what did HTC do? They were among the first to rush to support software which is a) free, b) opensource and c) coming from the largest and most dangerous official corporate MS hater in the world. Not only did HTC just release devices with that software, but they were key in improving it, whether by hiding the ugly default look or by compensating for the crippled unfinished nature of it (e.g. Exchange support). And it was also done with full knowledge of the fact that MS is having difficult time redefining their platform strategy, knowing that this was the perfect timing to hit MS when it's most vulnerable.
This is one of the larger stabs in the back in recent history of corporate partnerships. If I were Ballmer, I'd strike back with a vengeance, and that would be serious. If Jobs were Ballmer, you'd see bloodshed. Microsoft, on the other hand, is known to be very good in keeping relationships, and I think they're treating HTC very well. Maybe even better than they deserve.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very good points Sir. Good thing Ballmer is no Jobs. We'll see how hard HTC comes with WP7

WhyBe said:
Perhaps at some point in time before release dates were established, HD2 was supposed to be a WP7 phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it's more likely that the HD2 was designed to be a WM7 phone; its hardware design probably predates the decision to drop the Photon project in favour of WP7S.

Shasarak said:
I think it's more likely that the HD2 was designed to be a WM7 phone; its hardware design probably predates the decision to drop the Photon project in favour of WP7S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this, or the specifications for WP7 drastically changed during the last couple months. but what do WE know????? nothing!
I still think HD2 is a GREAT device for WM 6.5
It will suck with WP7 so why do you guys even think about it?

I think that HTC will switch definitely to Android/Maemo and BrewOS platforms after this.
Microsoft hasn't been loyal with HTC and neither with their customers: this non-upgradeability thing sucks and remember that if Microsoft is still selling Windows Mobile is only because of HTC that has developed an entirely new UI (Sense, HTCMessaging, HTCSettings, Connection Manager, CommManager etc.) that has given new life to Windows Mobile, making other OEMs such as LG, Toshiba etc. to develop their own UIs for selling Windows Mobile and literally saving the Microsoft's handheld OSes market.
And it's clear that the HTC HD2 has been assembled on the mainline of Windows Mobile 7, because WM6.5(.5) lacks of native MultiTouch features and other hardware that is in our HD2 and that only WM7 and Android can use.
I will never buy any other Windows Mobile device after this. I won't go with BrewOS, but surely I'll buy a device with an open platform OS (and opensource too, imagine what OS I'm referring to!).
Microsoft has been a really good company when Bill Gates was managing all.
Steve Ballmer has done a good job in the PC OSes market (remember that Windows7 was planned by Gates, not by Ballmer and yes, of course, it even depends on the Windows Team, but think on it), but now, I have to say, Ballmer is literally "shutting down" the Microsoft supremacy on all.
Good luck with your future Linux devices!

kholk said:
I will never buy any other Windows Mobile device after this. I won't go with BrewOS, but surely I'll buy a device with an open platform OS (and opensource too, imagine what OS I'm referring to!).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Symbian?
I like where it's heading... I'm getting an Android now, but I hope Symbian will get the developer support it deserves, cause the OS itself is great: youtube.com/watch?v=qapiWqJcAAE

Android 2.2 [Froyo]

Heya Minty here =D , Just sat here with a question
Now probably most of the devs here know that Froyo is 450% faster then Eclair
My question :
Are there any plans of getting Froyo on the HTC black*sheit*stone *coughcough* ?
And if so Is it going to run like hell or wha =D ?
Thanks =^.^=
\/ Peace!!!
Minty

thatd b f§$%in mint!!! =D

You can find the Review of the Froyo Android benchmarked with linpack >>Here<<<
And @ N!ghty Yeah it would be fecking Mint =D !

well, lets hope that someone will attend to the job then X=) :drool:

I kind of really hope so too =D , Now we all need is a Rom wich u just can flash on the HD , Instead of the Haret winmo Kernel killer, and i'm not getting rid of my blackbrick

It's not even close to 450% faster.
Don't believe all you read.

That test done at AndroidPolice.com is a single and not very significant benchmark. It's a program doing floating point math with matrices. This is not a representative example of the apps used on android phones.
Of course it's faster, Froyo uses JIT compiler, so the code is compiled once and the ran multiple times in native form. The standard java compiler has to translate the code everytime. There are other things that will influence the performance, like having good drivers and allow some apps and codecs to run native code.
The current situation is similar to what Microsoft intended to do with Windows NT, putting all third party code, including drivers, on a layer above the kernel. So that a faulty driver could not take the system down. But this lead to slow framerates on gaming, so people kept gaming under MS-DOS and not Windows. Microsoft had to allow some things so gaming was possible in Windows.

i also noticed the test was done using a google nexus one with a 1ghz processor, not on something like a hero that has the same 528mhz processor that our blackstone has.

Ofcourse, You're all right thats true, i just wish Google or HTC would release an official version of android for our blackbricks that would be killer, or release ALL info about the chipsets and radios used in our bricks =D *hey, we can all dream right ? * hehe

Gumshot said:
Ofcourse, You're all right thats true, i just wish Google or HTC would release an official version of android for our blackbricks that would be killer, or release ALL info about the chipsets and radios used in our bricks =D *hey, we can all dream right ? * hehe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, but they rather dont give a **** about ppl trying to put android on a winmo phone of theirs... its simply uneconomical

N!ghty said:
yeah, but they rather dont give a **** about ppl trying to put android on a winmo phone of theirs... its simply uneconomical
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quite right... and fair on HTC's part too. How are they supposed to just dream up a bunch of developers and testers to do a port? and then... they have to go through all the operator approval tests again... remember the operators subsidised the phones in many regions with the expectation for WinMo, not Android.
Folks just don't understand that a 'phone' is not just a phone.... it's a massive part of a whole telecoms industry that's VERY political and full of competition.
It's just not realistic to expect a 2 year old device to be supported with enhancements unless the business model is like Apple's where the entire ecosystem is around the apps and services (read Advertising).

Thanks everyone , i'm just thinking that i would go and get the new iPhone june/july , Registered as a dev there and for android too shame that HTC wouldn't do things like that but it could be expected obviously
Thanks everyone

Yeh, because going to an even more closed off platform is clearly the answer.
Thats why all those 1st gen iPhone's running on iPhoneOS 4.0... oh wait...
An android platform is hackable, so even if there isn't any official support, someone can mod it. I'm happily running 2.1 on my HTC Magic even though it's only supported at 1.6, I'm sure there will be a 2.2 release.

Quite right...
Apple do a sterling job of marketing and making very very good products appear to be out of this world products.
However, the facts are:
1) It's a closed platform
2) It's low resolution (but hides it well)
3) It is the most responsive UI in the world
4) It doesn't multitask well, not even in V4 which improves matters, but isn't WinMo
5) The functionality is superficially wonderful, below the surface it's limited.
6) Hacking is possible, but the customisation options are generally poor (accepted that folks are porting Android to it)
7) Apple's policy of 'our way, or go away' has merits. It does improve UI consistency, and the overall consistency of the product.... but it stifles innovation and has a very ugly habit of killing of competitive software that Apple doesn't want to give ground to.
For me, WinMo is STILL the best all round smartphone OS, but the UI sucks. And still sucks on WM7.
Symbian is slowly dying (too late for Nokia to save it now)
Android is interesting, on most of the best products at the moment, but still lagging behind WinMo in functionality, streets ahead in attractive UI, a little ahead in usable UI
For me, Android's the most likely to improve. The dev community is moving to it en-mass, and Microsoft still manage to clutch mediocrity from the jaws of greatness.
Apple will eventually discover what Nokia discovered... people just grow tired of the best device and want something new and different. Once everyone's got an iPhone, they want something different...

TheBrilliantMistake said:
Quite right...
Apple do a sterling job of marketing and making very very good products appear to be out of this world products.
However, the facts are:
1) It's a closed platform
2) It's low resolution (but hides it well)
3) It is the most responsive UI in the world
4) It doesn't multitask well, not even in V4 which improves matters, but isn't WinMo
5) The functionality is superficially wonderful, below the surface it's limited.
6) Hacking is possible, but the customisation options are generally poor (accepted that folks are porting Android to it)
7) Apple's policy of 'our way, or go away' has merits. It does improve UI consistency, and the overall consistency of the product.... but it stifles innovation and has a very ugly habit of killing of competitive software that Apple doesn't want to give ground to.
For me, WinMo is STILL the best all round smartphone OS, but the UI sucks. And still sucks on WM7.
Symbian is slowly dying (too late for Nokia to save it now)
Android is interesting, on most of the best products at the moment, but still lagging behind WinMo in functionality, streets ahead in attractive UI, a little ahead in usable UI
For me, Android's the most likely to improve. The dev community is moving to it en-mass, and Microsoft still manage to clutch mediocrity from the jaws of greatness.
Apple will eventually discover what Nokia discovered... people just grow tired of the best device and want something new and different. Once everyone's got an iPhone, they want something different...[/QUOTE
Good analysis and well said
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Yeah I couldn't agree more

the one and only
then one and only WinMo :

Fo shizzle my nizzle, LOL
@ontopic, Its such a shame that WM7 is not going to be availible for ours even too ( such a waiste and a shame

TheBrilliantMistake said:
Quite right...
Apple do a sterling job of marketing and making very very good products appear to be out of this world products.
However, the facts are:
1) It's a closed platform
2) It's low resolution (but hides it well)
3) It is the most responsive UI in the world
4) It doesn't multitask well, not even in V4 which improves matters, but isn't WinMo
5) The functionality is superficially wonderful, below the surface it's limited.
6) Hacking is possible, but the customisation options are generally poor (accepted that folks are porting Android to it)
7) Apple's policy of 'our way, or go away' has merits. It does improve UI consistency, and the overall consistency of the product.... but it stifles innovation and has a very ugly habit of killing of competitive software that Apple doesn't want to give ground to.
For me, WinMo is STILL the best all round smartphone OS, but the UI sucks. And still sucks on WM7.
Symbian is slowly dying (too late for Nokia to save it now)
Android is interesting, on most of the best products at the moment, but still lagging behind WinMo in functionality, streets ahead in attractive UI, a little ahead in usable UI
For me, Android's the most likely to improve. The dev community is moving to it en-mass, and Microsoft still manage to clutch mediocrity from the jaws of greatness.
Apple will eventually discover what Nokia discovered... people just grow tired of the best device and want something new and different. Once everyone's got an iPhone, they want something different...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A very board view. and true.

I'm living it differently. I own an Ipod Touch 1.0 gen (jailbreak), Touch Diamond 500 with Win 6.5 modded and I'm desperately and impatiently awaiting THE BATTERY FIX, lol, so that my batt can last all day on xdandroid 2.01. xdandroid is awsome!

Seems the press are already writing off WP7

See the linked article http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/26/windows_phone_7_sales/
WP7 doesn't appear to be doing very well. So many people want this to fail it amazes me!

That's truly sad. I'm actually a bit disappointed with the advertisements from Microsoft. Sure, the ads are broad casted a lot but there aren't any catchy ones like the iPod silhouettes and what not. MS needs to step it up when it comes to appealing to consumers through ads otherwise it'll be hard to dent the Androids hold over the smartphone marketshare.

Same here in France, with this article from a famous french magazine LE POINT: "What's wrong with WP7" (google translation)
http://translate.google.fr/translat...-qui-cloche-22-11-2010-1265610_47.php&act=url
Articles underlines some missing features when readers in the comments mainly insist on:
- the fact that WP7 is too locked, especially compared to Android
- WP7 is not designed for business

I guess that if it doesn't do well, those of us who have a wp7 device are going to be part of a pretty exclusive club! Still there is time yet, if MS produce the updates which add the missing features that all the naysayers continually whinge about and go up a gear on their marketing campaign WP7 will fly - it is too good a product not to!

I don't have a magic boll but I think that all of this will change in a couple of months

adesonic said:
I guess that if it doesn't do well, those of us who have a wp7 device are going to be part of a pretty exclusive club! Still there is time yet, if MS produce the updates which add the missing features that all the naysayers continually whinge about and go up a gear on their marketing campaign WP7 will fly - it is too good a product not to!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is reported that MS is in it for the win. I can only believe such criticisms will spur MS on to ever higher efforts. I agree, too, that most of the criticisms are about the lacking features. This will change when those features are added. I know I love the system but almost gave up on it...I was livid actually...when I saw it didn't have common voice nav. The copy & paste and multitasking, I was aware of it not having. But the voice nav, I wasn't aware of. It rocked me badly. I can only imagine what the general, unknowing, public might be feeling about the system...without all of these features.

I think for the sole reason of creating the hd7 and not allowing a hd2 upgrade they deserve to fail.

HTC deserve to fail for their mediocre WP7 devices. MS doesnt, but sadly they are depending on these hardwaremanufaturers.

nizzon said:
HTC deserve to fail for their mediocre WP7 devices. MS doesnt, but sadly they are depending on these hardwaremanufaturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
please tell me what is wrong with my hd7 ?

The press has pretty much written off Microsoft as a whole already. They need somebody to bark at and somebody to adore, if they aren't opinionated nobody will read their stuff.

twisted89 said:
I think for the sole reason of creating the hd7 and not allowing a hd2 upgrade they deserve to fail.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the hd2 was never in line for it MS has always said that this is a stupid argument the hd7 may have similar specs but the hd7 is a vast improvment in design
Everyone is always bashing MS but that's not stopped them they new that the haters would come but so to are the updates and tbh if less ppl have one then the more ppl there are who will be amazed when they see mine

WP7 is too important for Microsoft for them to give up on it. It's their only mobile platform that ties all of their online services together. If they want to compete with Google WP7 has to succeed. Microsoft can't afford for to let everyone use an Android phone with cloud services and search services all going to Google.
For those that are worried about bad press remember people said the same thing about the xbox when it came out and it's been a success despite having a horrible track record with hardware failures.
WP7 is a long term strategy for Microsoft. Poor sales in the beginning is hardly anything to worry about it.

lumpaywk said:
the hd2 was never in line for it MS has always said that this is a stupid argument the hd7 may have similar specs but the hd7 is a vast improvment in design
Everyone is always bashing MS but that's not stopped them they new that the haters would come but so to are the updates and tbh if less ppl have one then the more ppl there are who will be amazed when they see mine
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
vast improvement in design? how exactly? they moved a couple of buttons around!

There is no vast improvement in design but the simple answer is the hd2 doesn't meet the button requirements for WP7. There's no exceptions to the rules Microsoft has laid out.
twisted89 said:
vast improvement in design? how exactly? they moved a couple of buttons around!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

ceesheim said:
please tell me what is wrong with my hd7 ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe nothing wrong with yours, but I'm on my 4th one. The first one had data reception problems. The second one had dead pixels all over the screen and at the perfect angle you could see scuff marks on the screen. The third one had trash under the screen, on top of the actual LCD. There were tiny specks of something on it.
I always thought my HD2 was exceptional for quality, and it is. But I have not had fortune with HTC's latest offerings.

adesonic said:
Seems the press are already writing off WP7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Them again. And how many journalists are experts in anything?

The reports are just the typical anti-ms nonsense from the media...here in Canada it's hard to find the Samsung focus...the US launched with far fewer devices than demand.
MS is in for the long road...let's remember android for the first 2 years...

vangrieg said:
The press has pretty much written off Microsoft as a whole already. They need somebody to bark at and somebody to adore, if they aren't opinionated nobody will read their stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's getting to the stage where the Microsoft-bashing is beyond the joke.
Journos and many other people in the media are Apple supporters simply because it's the platform on which they create, design and produce their content. This is mostly due to the fact that Microsoft were years behind MacOS in regards to graphic design and publication software in the 90s. Apple is still deeply encroached, despite the fact that Windows has since caught up with, and arguably overtaken, Apple's ability in that industry.
However, the other 99% of the world is very happily using Microsoft products. I don't use Office because I have to; I use it because, to me, it's a damn sight better than any comparable product. I don't use Windows 7 because I have to; I use it because, to me, it's a damn sight better than MacOS or any other flavour of Unix / Linux. And I've started using Windows Phone 7 because, to me, it's a damn sight better than WM 6.5, Apple iOS, Android, Blackberry or any of the others out there at the moment.
You really just need two things for WP7 to succeed; it needs to be good, and it needs to be relentlessly promoted.
Microsoft have relentlessly promoted terrible products in the past, and they have naturally failed (case in point: Microsoft Bob). However, they relentlessly promoted XBOX for years as well, even when in the beginning it was a less-than-strong platform. But it's just as well they did, because now it's bloody brilliant and we have new technologies like Kinect to play with.
At the end of the day, the great news here is that WP7 is actually good; and since the WP7 platform is the future home of Microsoft's silverlight technology, and a main branch of their XBOX development, you can be sure as hell they will keep promoting it until it succeeds.

twisted89 said:
I think for the sole reason of creating the hd7 and not allowing a hd2 upgrade they deserve to fail.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That was a pretty crappy move, but that is more of an HTC crime, not MSFT.

The new WP7 is a good platform, but only in some ways.
MS does make a 'brand-new' OS, however, since its launch, there are these 2 questions from the consumers:
1) From the current iOS and Android users: 'Its functions is almost the same, but my phone(iphone) display is much prettier and more apps, why should I change?'
2) From the current WM users: 'Geez, lots of functions that we like are now gone, no file explorer, no tethering, no mass storage mode, no copy&paste, can't remove storage-card, have to have a live-ID, etc etc.... I might as well just wait til the first update and see....'
The phone manufacturers has invested tons of money to make up phones for WM7, however, the response from the market is nothing close to expectation, if there's no breakthrough on the up coming update from MS, manufacturers like HTC and samsung might also hold on to the WM7 platform too.
To write off a product, you don't need the press, or experts, the consumer market does.