Develop Bugs

Windows Mobile 6.6 in February 2010?

Not sure how true this is but I stumbled across it and figured I would share.
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20100114PD216.html
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-to-Launch-Windows-Mobile-6-6-in-February-132099.shtml

Hm, interesting stuff, I am thinking that maybe 6.5.3 has evolved to 6.6, but the extra support of Capapcative makes sense seeing as how Microsoft is looking at moving into that type of screen.
Honestly Resistive screens have come a long way and our TP2 is just about on par with a capacative screen but official support is the next logical step. I still don't like the enlarged buttons at the bottom though.

Why do they do this...finish one damn OS as best as possible and then move on. Windows has like 6 in development and we can't get one of them unless they are cooked beta releases...absurd.

If they do delay 7 until 2011, it will be the death of Windows Mobile. That pushes it to nearly 4 years to develop it. Apple and Google can come out with a decent OS in less than a year, why can't Microsoft?

It may be that mainly it's just a marketing decision. Marketing 6.5.3 as 6.6 gives it more appeal to the general public, more of a new step away from the "flat" 6.5.
And doesn't some flavor of 6.5 already have capacitive support, hence the HD2.

Xebec said:
Apple and Google can come out with a decent OS in less than a year, why can't Microsoft?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apple has complete control over the hardware. Android is a much simpler OS than WinMo. That is part of why.

This certainly doesn't make sense to me. Why is M$ bothering with WinMo 6.x at all? They should be allocating all available resources to WinMo7!
I like WinMo, but even I have to admit that it's glory days are long over. If it weren't for HTC and the XDA forums,
WinMo would have been dead a long time ago. Certainly, M$ knows this.
WinMo 6.1 is like a car crash victim. Apple and Android has ran over it at 80mph several times over. The WinMo 6.5 update is like applying a bandaid. It helps, but clearly it's not enough. Major reconstructive surgery is required in the form of WinMo 7. But instead of rushing to prep the O.R. they're applying another friggen bandaid in the form of WinMo 6.6!
This news is very disappointing to me. It appears that I have no choice but to jump ship to Android over the next several months. I had really wanted to give WinMo 7 a shot. But anyway, I still hope WinMo 7 turns out the be a success.

ZUUL42 said:
It may be that mainly it's just a marketing decision. Marketing 6.5.3 as 6.6 gives it more appeal to the general public, more of a new step away from the "flat" 6.5.
And doesn't some flavor of 6.5 already have capacitive support, hence the HD2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you know that "Windows 7" is really Windows 6.1? If you don't believe me, go on a Windows 7 computer and run "winver" (shortcut for Windows version).

Windows 7 uses Vista kernels, which was Win6. So Win 7 is 6.1 as it's simply a performance tweak with a few tweaks over vista.
I just believe Win 7 was what M$ aimed to to achieve while releasing Vista, and heavily failed.

Microsoft seems afraid to come out with anything really NEW. For years everything they've released has just been a patch on top of what's already there or a reaction to the competition eg Zune
They want to keep compatibility, even with software that's ancient and not even really used, but in doing so shoot themselves in the foot with layer upon layer of fixes that just end up with bloating and slow down. For instance, why on earth are they still using NTFS, is it really the best available with it's constant fragmentation leading very quickly to your system crawling along?
I read some article recently comparing the the time it takes to do simple tasks on a modern quad core machine with an old machine running Windows 3.1. Bet you can't guess which came out on top !
I think what their problem is is that 10 years ago they really were at the top of their game and ahead of the competition. Since then they have been resting on their laurels and don't want to rock the boat too much for fear of losing customers. They're more interested in keeping old customers who might open their eyes and look elsewhere if things change too dramatically. This is typical of a company that has grown too large where nobody wants to take a risk and stick their neck out.
It's a pretty sad state of affairs really since they used to do so well and obviously have the money and brains to do a lot better. I can't see anything changing much soon until their core business market (conservative and unadventurous by definition) starts to move away from Windows laptops, Outlook and Exchange Server.
Edit (just remembered):
Anyone heard of Gates' Law ? This is the man himself confirming what I have just mentioned :
http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/Gatess-Law.html
http://codebytez.blogspot.com/2005/08/gates-law.html

They are planning on using both OSs. Thus the continued development of 6.*.*

I'm sorry but the Gates Law thing is rubbish.
When I was doing my Masters I was using a 'state of the art' 386dx running an excel spreadsheet modelling fluid flow through soil under a dam. To obtain an accurate result he model had to be run overnight. I tried it again a few years afterwards on a Pentium 3 running the newest version of excel at the time and it took a few of seconds.
Now if the law had said that software doubles in size every 18 months then I coud believe that one

Seriously people, this is not a press release from Microsoft. While I don't doubt the 6.6 release, I would put absolutely zero faith in their opinion that this will push back WM7's release.

ohyeahar said:
This certainly doesn't make sense to me. Why is M$ bothering with WinMo 6.x at all? They should be allocating all available resources to WinMo7!
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Click to collapse
9 women can't make a baby in a month, and 10,000 devs can't make an OS in half the time as 5,000 devs.

Toleraen said:
9 women can't make a baby in a month, and 10,000 devs can't make an OS in half the time as 5,000 devs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said. Although the comparison is unfair it does make the point.

stunno said:
I'm sorry but the Gates Law thing is rubbish.
When I was doing my Masters I was using a 'state of the art' 386dx running an excel spreadsheet modelling fluid flow through soil under a dam. To obtain an accurate result he model had to be run overnight. I tried it again a few years afterwards on a Pentium 3 running the newest version of excel at the time and it took a few of seconds.
Now if the law had said that software doubles in size every 18 months then I coud believe that one
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're correct in that instance, but that is the processor not the software
The point I'm making is that Excel used to start from scratch to an empty spreadsheet faster than it does now.
I'm sure my old Hermes used to boot faster than my TP2. My first Nokia defiantly did !

OGIGA said:
Did you know that "Windows 7" is really Windows 6.1? If you don't believe me, go on a Windows 7 computer and run "winver" (shortcut for Windows version).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and if you go to settings/about on a winmo 6.5, you can see it is 5.2.xxx
doesn't necessarily mean you are using winmo 5
if you want more info you can see http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2009/10/the_story_on_th.html

OGIGA said:
Did you know that "Windows 7" is really Windows 6.1? If you don't believe me, go on a Windows 7 computer and run "winver" (shortcut for Windows version).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft could easily have called it Windows 7 internally, as well as in marketing. The reason they did not is not that, "it is really 6.1". Rather, Microsoft wanted to not "break" existing hardware/software that was programmed to look for a 6.x OS which would, then, not run under 7 due to the different major version number.
I think it's fair to say that just as XP was not really an incremental update to Windows 2000 (NT5 vs NT5.1), Windows 7 is also more than a mere incremental upgrade to Vista (NT6 vs NT6.1). The features and underlying OS changes, in both instances, bear that out.

Photon: What Windows Mobile 7 could have been

Pocketnow.com has a great story on Windows "Phone" 7 and details about what happened to Windows "Mobile" 7, codenamed Photon.
I think it's worth a read. I can add a little detail: Photon has been killed about 18 months ago. That's how long development of Windows Phone 7 took them. 18 months. And that's why the Windows Phone 7 they've shown at MWC looks so unfinished: Because it is.
Photon was the original Windows Mobile 7 project. An evolution of Windows Mobile 6. They were hard at work back then, trying to make Windows Mobile 7 competitive to iPhone OS. Windows Mobile 7 was originally planned to be released in mid 2009.
But at some point, they dumped the whole project and decided to start from scratch. Photon was dead. And Windows "Mobile" was doomed, making way for Windows "Phone". Instead of Photon, they released Windows Mobile 6.5 in mid 2009, a stop gap release to give them more time to finish their new Windows Phone 7 project.
Well, we all know how that turned out.
I personally think that they've made a mistake. I think Windows Mobile 7 (Photon) would have been competitive, as it essentially would have solved all of Windows Mobile's problems, but preserving the power of Windows Mobile, the reason we use and like it.
Windows Phone 7 will instead be much more closed and remove a great proportion of the power user features, that were the reason for us not to move on to other platforms, like the iPhone.
But what do I know? Windows Mobile 7 wouldn't have been much different from other platforms, like Android and iPhone OS. Sure, it would have had much more power user features, but it would have been centered around applications, like the others. It would certainly have gained a significant market share, but no dominance. With Windows Phone 7, instead, Microsoft is aiming higher.
But that also means a lot of risk. It means Windows Phone 7 might fail completely. In the end, it will come down to how good they are at getting developers excited about their new platform. That's where Palm failed, despite having a very compelling platform with webOS. Microsoft might fail the same way, though they have a much better starting position than Palm (more money, more resources, better developing tools).
In my opinions, they've taken too much risk while desperately trying to create something different from their competitors' app-centric platforms. As Engadget said it: Being different does not necessarily mean making a difference. If they can make a difference, they might dominate the smartphone market some time, like they dominate the desktop OS market. But if they fail to make a difference... well, Windows Phone might fall into oblivion, like Palm's webOS.
I like the Windows Phone 7 UI. I like it a lot. See my take on the interface quoted at the bottom of this post.
But Windows Phone 7 is very similar to Vista: Just like they killed the "Longhorn" project, they killed "Photon", and started from scratch. And just like Vista, what they're going to release by the end of 2010 will be an unfinished product.
They're trying to make you think that 7 is their lucky number, but actually, it might turn out that it's not, and Windows Phone 7 is just like Windows 6 (Vista).
Also, Windows Phone 7 is not that different from Palm's webOS: When the Palm Pre was released, webOS was a nice looking mobile OS, but lacking features and refinements. And lacking third party applications. Expect the same to happen with Windows Phone 7.
Here's the Pocketnow story: http://pocketnow.com/thought/thoughts-on-windows-phone-7-series-btw-photon-is-dead
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In short: This is easily and by far the best and most well thought through UI I've ever seen. Ever.
I particularly like
- the ability to pin pretty much everything to the first page (but unlike Sense, as many things as you want), whether it's contacts, programs or whatever
- the things you pin to the first page not being static, but also showing information - a very clever way to bring together the iPhone's icon-based home screen with Windows Mobile's information based home screen.
- the navigation through the pages, with the text on top going out of the screen to show you that there's more you can discover by swiping left/right
- the panorama backgrounds on all the screens (cover arts in music, a random picture in photos etc.)
- the ability for third party developers to integrate their stuff (like additional social networks or streaming services) into the hubs (I hope there will be a lot of freedom for third parties to do so!).
- the seamless integration of all kinds of services in general, whether it's Exchange, Windows Live (finally!!), Facebook...
I also particularly like that some good concepts from previous Windows Mobile versions have been preserved:
- long press menus
- softkeys
- quick search through any list (in WM6.5, it was the keyboard icon, now it's the required search button)
Those enable a consistent UI throughout all applications, contrary to the mess you find on the iPhone, where important buttons like "back" are in different places depending on the application you're in.
OK, enough of the praise, here's what I do NOT like:
- The all applications list: That should be a grid, cause there's lots of wasted space there.
- There seems to be no easy way to get to the music controls while music is playing in the background.
- Apparently there is no easy way to switch between running applications, this seems to work much like WM6.5, with the back button taking you to the application you used before. This is a mess, the back button should open some kind of task switcher instead.
Will that awesome UI be enough to keep me from buying an Android device? Well, ONLY if I get all the important applications from the beginning, like for example satellite navigation (TomTom, Copilot...) and ONLY if there are no restrictions on how I use my device - give me multitasking, unlimited access to the file system and registry, let companies develop competing applications (like browsers) etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Great writeup...it's obvious that in order to attain mass market share MS needs to develop an interface that just works straight out of the box. It has to work for all ages which is something Apple have done with the iPhone..simple and attractive with a huge incentive to keep ones interest high through their ever growing appstore. If they can get it right first time and with the enthusiasm from application developers they may well be onto a winner but the win may not come immediately.However, they need to make every step count along the way and the longer they take the bigger the gap to the lead.
I also believe MS may leave at least one door unlocked to get their OS to do what powerusers expect from it.
From what I've seen of the WP7 interface so far it looks pretty neat and I'm definately looking forward to it hopefully landing on my HD2 soon.

Uh... link's dead.

aussiebum said:
Uh... link's dead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Apparently pocketnow is in the process of moving to a new server and that article is on the new server. I can't see it either.
Microsoft is MASSIVELY different than Palm. In size, skills, and especially developer support and tools.
WebOS is a great OS but like you said, it's main failure is developer support. First, it's partially their fault due to the architecture. Until recently, you couldn't really write "native" apps using their SDK (people hacked it long ago but that's another story). Basically you were limited to little more than a web page with increased access to the phone. Meh. Also, WebOS has very minimal market penetration. Until recently it was only available on the US's #3 carrier and only later on select carriers abroad. Why develop software for a device that hardly anyone has? Apple was (as they always seem to do) able to drum up a large amout of support with very little reason to show for it. Microsoft will have a much more compelling story than Apple did with it's iPhone but will lack Apple's "it" factor (Jobs' RDF).
Palm is tiny. They don't have the money and patience like MS does to sustain a long, battle for the hearts and minds of phone users everywhere. Just look at what MS did with the Xbox. They didn't turn a profit on that unit until well into the Xbox 360. But did MS quit after the original Xbox was a failure? No, they tried harder. And now look.
Palm doesn't have the devloper tools. Yea, they can write plugins for Eclipse but they lack the ability to write extensive APIs and integrate them into Visual Studio. Do not underestimate the power of .net (figuratively and literally). Silverlight is fantastic as is XNA. If I can make a 'game' (although it sucked lol) anyone can.
No guts no glory. Microsoft is playing for keeps. I have no doubt that WP7 or WP8 will be successful.
FYI, Windows 7 is really Windows 6.1. And just like Longhorn, Photon was likely destined to be a failure. Vista was a necessary step to get to 7. The hatred for Vista is largely unfounded and 7 really is just Vista with the complaints fixed and a bit more modern UI.
We still don't know the story on app compat. It's running WinCE and it will support silverlight (.net) so there's little reason, other than wanting a complete clean break, that most old apps won't work. WinCE uses cab installs just like WM (because it is CE). I can write one app and deploy it to a bare WinCE 6.0 system or to WM6.5 (CE5). Maybe they will allow old stuff, maybe they won't. We won't know til next month. They very well may not have made this decision yet.
At one time the iPhone had 0 apps and WM had a **** ton. How long did it take for iPhone to build up a huge base of devs? I'm expecting a pretty solid selection of apps written for WP7 right from launch. Microsoft already has a lot of the key stuff onboard. I've got something in mind and will likely be doing one myself (something I started for WM6).

I agree.
I wouldn't worry about WP7 apps' database like the iPhone people will get interest in it, its potential is great when it comes to the new UI (the only thing we know for sure).
About the Photon project, why do you think that it's dead?
It seems that M$ is willing to keep the old branch of Windows Mobile by renaming it to Windows Phone Classic. Perhaps Photon is the final evolution of Windows Phone Classic. I don't think, IF they keep on developping, that they are going to stop to this current bad look and poor customization of WM6.5.3.
I don't think Windows Phone 7 was supposed to be WM6.1, if it was the OS would be ready a long time ago.
I apologize for my poor english, i hope you understand my thought.

X-On said:
About the Photon project, why do you think that it's dead?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been told by peole inside Microsoft that WM6.5 will live on for no longer than two years, more likely only 18 months from now. I've heard no word that there would be a successor.

freyberry said:
I have been told by peole inside Microsoft that WM6.5 will live on for no longer than two years, more likely only 18 months from now. I've heard no word that there would be a successor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Due to the limited versions numbers left between 6.5 and 7 it's not really assumed they will keep it going for too long. after 6.5.3 is gonna be officially released (this month?) my guess it that they're only fixing bugs and make it run on few more devices. in 1-2 years I don't think anymore OEMS will demand it and there'll be not a lot of phones with CPUs less than 1Ghz and such and they'll all run WP7. For MS it doesn't really make sense to keep it going any longer.....

WM6.5.x will be Windows Phone Starter Edition according to the latest rumors

Win_XP said:
WM6.5.x will be Windows Phone Starter Edition according to the latest rumors
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it's 'Windows Phone Classic'
source

Any chance of a Photon leak? Would be nice project for Xda Dev.

some screens ...

dark_sith said:
Any chance of a Photon leak? Would be nice project for Xda Dev.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We had old alpha versions. It was very unfinished, slow and buggy.
Cotulla has posted its screenshots above.

I think Photon looked good. They should at least have finished the work on it and released it instead of WM6.5.
Let those 1000 developers work on Windows Phone OS 7.0 and another 500 work on Photon, release Photon in mid 2009 as WM6.5 and Windows Phone OS 7.0 a year later.
That would have been perfect. Ah I'm dreaming...
Mamaich, any chance you could have another look at that dev document, whether third party applications get paused when sent to the background?
(i.e. whether or not developers are allowed to write programs like GPS tracking tools or FTP clients that can do their work in the background)

freyberry said:
Mamaich, any chance you could have another look at that dev document, whether third party applications get paused when sent to the background?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no such info in the docs I have. These are OEM docs, they have lots of information on WinPhone kernel, and only brief info on user apps.
I personally like WinPhone 7 kernel. It supports lots of different sensors, hardware accelerated Direct3D API (no OpenGL ES), multi-touch, almost all drivers are split in MDD+PDD model simplifying BSP development and ROM updates, redesigned security model.
Obviously we will hack WinPhone7 to enable running native apps (similar to "rooting" Androids that we have to do to install features like VPN client), and publish our own "native mode SDKs" here on XDA.

mamaich said:
There is no such info in the docs I have. These are OEM docs, they have lots of information on WinPhone kernel, and only brief info on user apps.
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Thanks a lot. We will have to wait, then.
Obviously, WP7 will be hacked and we will be able to develop native and multitasking applications. But I seriously hope that big, important applications like GPS navigation programs won't be restricted from running in the background... I'll contact MS concerning that issue

If MS continue with the Photon project, it would be more of the same.They would continue to loss marketshare. It may be technically more advanced for the WM powerusers. Unfortunately, it is a small minority for the market. the fact that Apple could sell their dump phone (1st iPhone) in millions and continue to do so well tells us what appeals to the the mass market. MS really has no choice but to follow the path they are doing now if they are to remain relevant to the mobile space. Yes, it is risky but the alternative is certain to fail.

freyberry said:
Thanks a lot. We will have to wait, then.
Obviously, WP7 will be hacked and we will be able to develop native and multitasking applications. But I seriously hope that big, important applications like GPS navigation programs won't be restricted from running in the background... I'll contact MS concerning that issue
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I assume that Navigation programs would belong to that type of application that would receive a multitasking permission by MS.... If that story about the permissions is true!? But looking at the already exisiting Designed for Windows Mobile or Marketplace submission handbook this pretty much fits in with MS's way of handling 3rd party applications.

from the picture. are thet from Windows "Mobile" 7 ?
I like these UI. Microsoft should place these UI to WM6.x if WM7 was killed

MrWhisper said:
from the picture. are thet from Windows "Mobile" 7 ?
I like these UI. Microsoft should place these UI to WM6.x if WM7 was killed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me only like other screenshots I've seen with the new bottom bar (battery and signal indication + start button in the middle. I don't know if it's even real. Whatever, I'm gonna make it happen on WM 6.5.x! I already managed to change look of the taskbar. the bottom bar will be next project.

RustyGrom said:
Apparently pocketnow is in the process of moving to a new server and that article is on the new server. I can't see it either.
Microsoft is MASSIVELY different than Palm. In size, skills, and especially developer support and tools.
WebOS is a great OS but like you said, it's main failure is developer support. First, it's partially their fault due to the architecture. Until recently, you couldn't really write "native" apps using their SDK (people hacked it long ago but that's another story). Basically you were limited to little more than a web page with increased access to the phone. Meh. Also, WebOS has very minimal market penetration. Until recently it was only available on the US's #3 carrier and only later on select carriers abroad. Why develop software for a device that hardly anyone has? Apple was (as they always seem to do) able to drum up a large amout of support with very little reason to show for it. Microsoft will have a much more compelling story than Apple did with it's iPhone but will lack Apple's "it" factor (Jobs' RDF).
Palm is tiny. They don't have the money and patience like MS does to sustain a long, battle for the hearts and minds of phone users everywhere. Just look at what MS did with the Xbox. They didn't turn a profit on that unit until well into the Xbox 360. But did MS quit after the original Xbox was a failure? No, they tried harder. And now look.
Palm doesn't have the devloper tools. Yea, they can write plugins for Eclipse but they lack the ability to write extensive APIs and integrate them into Visual Studio. Do not underestimate the power of .net (figuratively and literally). Silverlight is fantastic as is XNA. If I can make a 'game' (although it sucked lol) anyone can.
No guts no glory. Microsoft is playing for keeps. I have no doubt that WP7 or WP8 will be successful.
FYI, Windows 7 is really Windows 6.1. And just like Longhorn, Photon was likely destined to be a failure. Vista was a necessary step to get to 7. The hatred for Vista is largely unfounded and 7 really is just Vista with the complaints fixed and a bit more modern UI.
We still don't know the story on app compat. It's running WinCE and it will support silverlight (.net) so there's little reason, other than wanting a complete clean break, that most old apps won't work. WinCE uses cab installs just like WM (because it is CE). I can write one app and deploy it to a bare WinCE 6.0 system or to WM6.5 (CE5). Maybe they will allow old stuff, maybe they won't. We won't know til next month. They very well may not have made this decision yet.
At one time the iPhone had 0 apps and WM had a **** ton. How long did it take for iPhone to build up a huge base of devs? I'm expecting a pretty solid selection of apps written for WP7 right from launch. Microsoft already has a lot of the key stuff onboard. I've got something in mind and will likely be doing one myself (something I started for WM6).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree with all of the above, as well as my HD2, I have a Palm Pre and whilst I watched the WP7S presentation from MWC, I kept thinking - "that's like the Pre" Palm did a great job with the user interface on WebOS - it blows away the iPhone and Winmo for ease of use, but they did release an unfinished product (although they have managed to put a reasonable spin on the ongoing development by pitching "new features" into the mix every couple of months - things that should have been there day1).
MS are huge in comparison to Palm and provided they do not get bogged down with "big corp intertia", my guess is that the new OS will lauch complete with all bells and whistles intact.

My Thoughts on WP7

I will apologize in advance for this will be long and random because my thoughts bounce around like that
You know I've been trying to figure it all out lately. It seems a good portion of XDA (40% according to this poll) members are liking 6.5.3 moreso than 7. OK...fine. Then we have this huge population of people (34% according to this poll that plan on switching to another mobile OS. Not to mention the slew of people still pissed and wondering if the HD2 will be forward compatible. And the ever increasing amount of people still prefer Sense UI over WP7. Its all so much to address so I just stopped posting for a while...but I wonder?!?!? Is change really that bad?
Its like people have been *****ing for months wanting M$ to give us the scoop on WP7...we have it and we're pissed. lol. lets move past all this...I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people. Why don't we use this forum for sharing information and not bashing something that not out nor is it finished...we don't have even close to half of the info about this phone yet we are judging it based upon insubstantial information.
I remember when the videos started coming out, the guy at the booth mentions that copy/paste hadn't been implemented into the OS yet...then I read on this forum that there is NO COPY/PASTE. One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...so all current users can still have all the things they love currently for the next 10 years (with microsofts string of innovation..lol.) But lets be honest lets look at 6+ as a whole:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Blandness. This is the biggest issue. I've mentioned this before in other posts. Why is it everytime I want to accomplish anything in the OS I'm lead to an ugly white screen? Settings=ugly. SMS=ugly. Email=Ugly ANY SYSTEM MENU=UGLY. Its no wonder we all like Sense UI from HTC. Go to search and look up Contact Manager...see how many apps you get. Look up music players, lock screens, UI's etc. We got that by dozens. WHY? Now if you look at the scene currently...its because it gives us a choice to personalize, and I agree. But if you look back this was born out of a need for better rather than a need for different/personalization. Media player sucked...it was bland hard to navigate and generally a terrible experience. AC takes the best out the (Iphone) and creates it for WM (S2P)...sure it looks great but the need was much more for a BETTER player. Same can be said for S2U2 et al. HTC needed Manilla/sense to make our outdated UI look appealing/current. Everything about Sense is better than stock, Same can be said for Samsungs Touchwiz. These things were born out of necessity.
Terrible manufacturing. For all the HTC love out there, we all seem to let them get away with the fact that for the past 10 years (up until HD2) they have been giving us awesome software coupled with terrible hardware. It is a fact that we had incomplete/missing drivers and because of this alot of development was stalled or took forever to do. And image how much money HTC made off of shaving costs with shoddy manufacturing.
I won't got too indepth there but to keep it simple, M$ has those basic problems to deal with when making a new OS.
Now look at WP7, Easily top of the line spec sheet just for minimum requirements. I knew we were in for greatness when we got that bit of info. C'mon snapdragon as the minimum...awesome. This also gets rid of those Terrible manufacturing woes...so people can't just put out trash with the M$ OS on it. No more phones that crash from simple program openings. Also WVGA as the standard. No more need to build an app and then port it to other resolutions (WIN..) This coupled with the XNA/Silverlight development tolls make it possible to build for Xbox, PC, Mobile all at the same time...thats awesome and a huge win. Lastly, with Metro, there is no need for user skins on top of the UI. I know alot of you guys are newer to WM, but back in the day...I remember where the home screen was just "the homescreen"..the ugly green or blue homescreen with whatever info you needed on it (Weatherpanel FTW..anyone?) People realized how blah it was and you see where we are now. Look at Sense...its awesome because it gives you all the same info but it looks good and its faster. Metro has live tiles that give you access to EVERYTHING you need on your phone. Its not like the iphone where you check your SMS by tapping sms its something completely different, better. You go from the Hub into the universe that is you contacts, updated twitters, facebook, photos, sms, emails....everything at the touch of the finger...just by going into contacts. Thats awesome. Granted I don't uses twitter or facebook but its a nice touch. But if you look at it, there is still more room for innovation...HTC weather HUB anyone?
So yeah, a phone is a means of communications, a cell phone is a portable way of communication..Wp7 looks to be communication on steroids. I apologize for this extremely long message but i had to get out everything on my mind...in a place where people would read it. If you stuck it out, thank you. If you post telling me that was too long, you're absolutely right. Sorry

Good One..Well said, and I agree
devs, here do not trying to understand, if MS is closing one door, they are opening 100 doors as in the Xbox and other services can be synced among them, so this gives lot of opportunity to devs to come up with exciting creativve ideas.
Also, MS wnats to extend the scope with reaching out to all types of users and segments, and what they have showed here is the perfect thing.I am wwaiting for a review or hands on for a fully furnished and finished wp7 device.

I totally agree with you style. WM5 was a good os, but boring, Then here comes WM6.0 6.1 with touchflo. It was awesome, but the os sucked really bad, had a bunch of bugs and its just a let down. I had a htc 8125 which the phone itself was a resilient phone, but it just was sluggish with any of the OS except WM5 on it. I believe the phone couldn't exactly hold its own with the software but never the less it was slow running wm 6.5. The phone ran the os but I think windows had a bunch of problems. I am no longer using my 8125 cuz the poor thing died from a heart attack and major artery blockage from being used hard lol. I have a 8525 coming in and im planning on putting wm7 on it. Can't wait. I may be in for a let down but if I am then I still have a pretty cool phone coming to me, and it makes me look kinda cool for having it haha.

+1 good post b

A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.

gogol said:
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
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Click to collapse
So true....but there will be a good amount of apps available on launch because its using the Zune software so it will be running Zune Apps...I have a few games on my Zune already...all are nice and smooth.
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
~style1~
Thank you guys for the comments, I already had my flame suit on..

Exactly i was thinking same. MS has to start from 0 ..... new os, new hw, new life.
I like the functionality of new OS but not the GUI . and i believe lot will change till final release. Still i will use wp7 if everything seems to work out.
personally i would like cab installation and customization on wp7
guess how cool it would be lil customization like Sense UI on wp7 .. or adding app by cab ....
but i think whatever wp7 will be, it will worth using.

style1 said:
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
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Click to collapse
Hardware is up to par, only the buttons are not the same.
user Xmoo (does something with testing devices) stated on a dutch forum that there are HD2's running WP7 at HTC Taiwan.
Some user here stated (from internal sources) that it is defenitely possible to run WP7. All microsoft said till this date, that the HD2 doenst have the right buttons.
Im agree totally with you on this subject. Its certainly the only way for Microsoft to capture some decent marketshare.

@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.

pilgrim011 said:
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don' remember reading or hearing confirmation that multitasking won't be available. They clearly stated many times that some kind of multitasking will be available. We shall know everything(or almost everything) after MIX.
Stop judging unfinished OS that you don't even know. What you're saying is pure speculation.

style1 said:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
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Click to collapse
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.

It is not specifically the OS, but the "platform" as a whole (screen size, screen type, number of buttons, processor speed, type of buttons, size of RAM, flip phone, slide phone, whatnot, etc).
And yes, it is painful to maintain a lot of builds specific for those kind of varieties.
Not to mention lack OS update because of phone operator / carrier lazyness (I bought my HTC Kaiser unlocked from HTC because I learned that T-Mobile is very slow giving update).
That's why I am glad that Microsoft is now taking control of the minimum hardware specification. Because that would be an advantage of current WM situation, especially to reduce fragmentation as much as possible.
Also the fact that Microsoft will provide OS update and hardware drivers (no more *****ing around about HTC missing drivers).
Instead of developer wandering around to "patch" their apps to work on fragmented platform, or figuring out tricks to over-come missing drivers. They can now enjoy leveraging their creativity for making consistent apps in well supported plaform (WP7).
RAMMANN said:
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

style1 said:
I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people.
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Click to collapse
The problem is not just that the HD2 won't get an upgrade, it's the combination of it not getting an upgrade plus the fact that WP7 will not be backwards-compatible with Windows Moble applications. That is something almost nobody saw coming.
The effect of the non-backwards-compatibility announcement has been to completely kill off Windows Mobile as a viable platform for commercial software development. (Look at Adobe, look at Skype - there will be plenty of other developers jumping ship, most of whom probably won't make any public announcement about it).
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
style1 said:
One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
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Click to collapse
No, it's like you aren't paying attention.
There have been a number of announcements and leaks on the subject of multi-tasking, and we now have a pretty clear idea of how it will work. There can only be one foreground application. When a typical application is moved to the background, it will be suspended, but capable of being resumed from the same point when it is reactivated; it will not, however, be capable of actually doing anything while in the background. It will be possible for certain, select applications and services to actually run in the background rather than being paused, but this facility will be available only to applications developed by MS, or by their "partners" - i.e. phone manufacturers and networks.
style1 said:
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, but no one takes that claim seriously.

Shasarak said:
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Maybe we also forget that WM 6.5.x is brand new and just about to be launched. How many phones have you seen with a 6.5.3 stock ROM? There will still be plenty of new phones coming!
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....

RAMMANN said:
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The point is that no one realised WP7 would be "a completely different OS" - we were all completely blindsided by that. No one expected a situation where there wouldn't be a single WM6 application capable of running on WP7. If, as everyone expected and as HTC allowed HD2 buyers to believe, WP7 had been backwards-compatible, WM6.5 would still be a viable platform for commercial software: people could keep on developing software for WM6, secure in the knowledge that it would run just as well on WP7 when that eventually came along. The lack of backwards-compatibility has killed WM6 stone cold dead as a commercial platform: no sensible commercial developer will develop for it at all, anymore, they'll skip straight to WP7 (if they even bother with a Microsoft version at all). Until the no-backwards-compatibility announcement happened, an upgrade was much less important; now, it really matters.
RAMMANN said:
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's such a ridiculous analogy I hardly know where to begin.... Well, for starters, consider just how much Windows 95 software actually ran under NT - pretty much all of it did, with the only exception being games. And for those who needed gaming support, MS continued with fresh releases based on the Windows 95 development stream - 98, 98SE even ME - all of which could run virtually all NT-oriented software as well. Those releases didn't dry up until after full support for DirectX (and even improved DOS emulation) ended up in the NT line.
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?

Shasarak said:
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications (yeah, we here will certainly do, but most users won't, and even most software companies won't). WM has been going along its way to oblivion in terms of market share, and, frankly, we didn't see many (if any at all) big software guys pumping investment into the platform anyway.
Apart from "big" Windows I'd guess the biggest MS-driven market is the XBox. So they chose compatibility with that "ecosystem" over the WM one. Disappointing as it is, I think that it was the right decision for MS really.

If I may address a few things...Aaron Woodman has gone on record saying that there will be multitasking on the phone. Let me just drop an excerpt:
"Among the details unveiled by him in that interview, we can count the fact that there will be multitasking in the new operating system, although previous rumors pointed otherwise. However, the approach on applications is a little different than before, as they will be included/integrated with the hubs Windows Phone OS 7 sports, and this is something that Microsoft is set to detail at MIX10. The main idea, however, is that apps will be there, and that they will be selected so as to be in line with the new user experience the company is trying to promote."
So maybe I as well as microsoft have NO IDEA WHAT MULTITASKING IS. I'm not trying to make opinions and substantiate them with evidence...I'm looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. M$ says there will be multitasking in their platform then I have to conclude that there will be multitasking even if I haven't personally seen the way it will be handled on a bigger scale. Trying to prove otherwise without any info is just reckless. Now of course it doesn't seem that they are multitasking in the traditional way and I am curious to see exactly how the system is multitasking but if I may speculate I think it deals with the back button. It seems everytime you switch tasks you press the home button then go into your hub of what you are going to do...once you finish you press the home button and go into the next task...since we know the back button doesn't lead to the Homescreen, maybe the back button leads through all the previous tasks in the order that you went through them. That would be simple and unobtrusive. Thats just my speculation based upon the videos I've seen so far...prove me wrong please.
Also about being blindside you're right it was a shock to most. I think M$ has gone on record saying they will still support WM as WPclassic(WPC) so i don't think you guys have just been outright abandoned...but. I wonder, with all the issues that you are labelling about WP7 but still complaining that the HD2 wont be able to upgrade to it, which side of the fence do you really sit on. You can't really be on both sides. But while I'm being prudent HTC has gone on record many times saying the HD2 will be upgradable to WP7, M$ has said that it doesn't plan on upgrading the device. They site the three button crap as a reason but interestingly enough Tony Wilkinson, Microsoft Australia's Business Operations Director, has said that "there are some hardware components that the HD doesn't have." Could this be why the HD2 coming to Tmoble seems to be a beefier version? We don't know but its always fun to speculate. Since M$ hasn't offically released a FULL spec list we have no idea but we will know at MIX10. Hell maybe M$ has no plan on upgrading HD2 but they are leaving it solely up to the manufactures to deliver on that which is why there are 2 conflicting views coming from HTC and M$...who knows right now. But based on the facts these are likely conclusions.
I won't bother with any other thing said because its more off topic..I don't really care whether people think that people will stop developing on 6.5.X just because WP7 is released... they obviously underestimate this site. Hell what more do people need?
~style~

vangrieg said:
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.

Shasarak said:
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some of them will, some won't. I am an HD2 user and I don't care, I don't want to own it for another year anyway, I'd happily exchange it right now if there were something better. I'm sure most HD2 users don't even know what OS their device is running (I know my wife wouldn't know). So we're talking about a few hundred thousand users max. And that's just the user side. A commercial WM developer network is pretty much non-existent right now, apart from SPB, Resco and a couple other small firms.

Well done. I completely agree. I'm looking forward to it. Most users are just bitter and don't want change. I think the main worry with the cooks or other users is that is that it won't offer the amount of customization of 6.5 and below, but they fail to forget that the Iphone is boring until you jailbreak, in the process opening up many possibilities. I think the same will be said for WP7S

Theory Regarding the Lack of Bug Fixes and Slowness of Updates

Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.

randude said:
Ok, so here is my theory why it is taking Microsoft so long to release updates and bug fixes. I think the Windows Phone team is currently recoding Metro to run on top of Windows 8 instead of Windows CE. All the updates they are talking about down the road will be integrated into the new Windows 8 platform. Anyone else think this may be the case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That'd be EPIC if it were true.

I'm fairly confident that WP8 will indeed run ontop of Windows 8.

why ?
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I very much enjoy my WP7 device thank you. There is no reason for me not to want a WP8 next year.
In any case, merging Windows CE and Windows "proper" makes perfect sense. I see no good reason to maintain two completely different codebases (Windows CE and Windows 8) once Windows runs on ARM. In many ways there is no need for a complete rewrite as Windows CE (albeit very old) was always the ARM (or, mobile if you wish) version of Windows - it includes many of the very same underlaying principles.
What many people are missing is that WP7 is not an OS as such, the OS is Windows CE. WP7 is the shell. Porting this to Windows 8 should require much less effort than maintaining WinCE.
Since [most] all third-party WP7 apps are frameworked it also means any existing apps will work on WP8.
If done correctly (and I know, this is Microsoft we are talking about - chances are slim) it would also enable devs to code/design apps for Windows Phone and Windows Slate simultaneously. Rather than offer two different versions the app would adapt to the form-factor it's currently running on.

I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.

from what I've read, many people feel that Microsoft will release "Mango" as 7.5, and then WP8 to coencide with Windows 8...bumping up a version number doesn't mean it's a total rewrite...just that it adds enough features to be considered a major enough update to get a new number. For example, iOS 4 wasn't a rewrite of iOS 3, and android 2.x isn't a total rewrite of android 1.x

vetvito said:
I think they have to. Especially at the rate the competition is going, they will have to merge. They will have to do it fast, if they want to stay relevant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, and I'm sure Apple is going to have OS/X on Phones and Tablets next year.
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
You can use any HP touchscreen computer and see just how clunky a Win32 application is on a touchscreen computer. I don't see a majority of vendors running to revamp their application UIs to support touch, and a UI layer cannot do this on the fly due to the multitude of layouts, etc. used in Win32 applications.
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
That's why Apple is using iOS and not OS/X on their iPad. Icons and Widgets work better on larger tablet screens than Tiles, so while WP7 looks great on phones and certainly scales really well to larger/higher res displays... It would look terribad on a tablet, and lead to a ridiculous amount of wasted screen real estate.

I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.

ohgood said:
why would you want wp8 when 7 is still so immature ? a complete rewrite again ? id rather see wp7 mature and actually be updated as promised before a new version was beta'd.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
the NoDo update, that arrived so late, shall logically have solved must of the above mentioned bugs/issues. But it didn't.
What are MS waiting for? They behave like they have no competitors.

If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?

vangrieg said:
If the applications are all managed code than who cares whether it's WinCE or Win32?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.

Sure, but Silverlight can be updated with or without changing the underlying OS.

N8ter said:
I swear some of you people don't even think this through completely before making such baseless statements.
There's nothing saying they have to merge.
Windows just needed ARM support, which is basically done (and Microsoft probably was working on it for years beforehand - CE already basically worked on ARM and they've supported other platforms in the past) and of course another UI layer which they are working on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right - there is nothing saying they have to. It makes sense business wise though. Rather than having two teams working full out maintaining two similar yet very different OSes they can have one team working on maintaining one OS running on both platforms.
CE does run on ARM, it has done so for years and it's been in use in the enterprise sector for as long. Problem is, WinCE, even in it's later versions is old tech. Not just from a UI perspective but the core OS is old tech.
N8ter said:
However, this says nothing about the tons of Windows Apps which are optimized for non-touch keyboard+mouse use that will be basically broken on a touchscreen device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They won't be broken. They will function just as they have always done - with a mouse and/or keyboard. You can't take any old Win32 app and run it on ARM anyway, that's not the idea behind it at all.
N8ter said:
Most vendors will basically have to create a touch and non-touch version of their applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, no. They don't have to do anything of the kind. They can do so to stay relevant - especially if their app is the type of app that would be useful on a tablet, but they don't have to. Just because Win8 will have a tablet specific UI does not mean it will not also have the old desktop UI we're all used to. You need to make a distinction between OS and UI, they are two very different things.
arturobandini said:
That does not explain why MS failed to solve all the bugs listed here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=9153088&postcount=1
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Click to collapse
While I agree, there are still some bugs in the OS, NoDo did fix the major ones. Most of the remaining ones are non reproducible or actually "as designed". Also, many of them are not OS bugs but rather bugs that only appear on certain handsets.
PG2G said:
There are some differences between Silverlight on Windows Phone and Desktop. I believe Silverlight on Windows Phone is a fork of Silverlight 3, whereas the desktop is currently Silverlight 4. It'd be nice to see them converge at Silverlight 5 (crossing fingers for MIX 2011). I've heard plenty of rumors that Microsoft is at work on the compatibility issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, but that's of little concern really. As long as SLx is backwards compatible - which it will be, all existing apps will continue to run just fine. Also, with Silverlight finally coming to the Xbox they have all three screens covered (personally I would have preferred a new iteration of Media Center, but there's still time for that) - TV, Desktop and Mobile. The idea is that we as developers can code/design for the audience rather than the platform. Great things ahead if you ask me.

vetvito said:
I swear you must have misinterpreted my post.
Who said anything about OSX on a phone?
Jobs already said that wouldn't happen. IOS, WebOS(debatable) , and Android will continue to pave the future. Unless Microsoft does something, and I'm not talking about a Windows 7 tablet.
Windows is slow as hell compared to the competition. Look at Windows Media Center, and loom at Google TV, Apple TV.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...

N8ter said:
AppleTV and GoogleTV are Appliance products. Microsoft did have a TV thing a while back, but that's another story. Windows Media Center is fine.
If people aren't expecting Apple to put OS/X on tablets, etc. Why would you make a statement basically they have no choice but to merge WP7 and Windows eventually?
Also, I was talking about Windows 8 (which runs on ARM, and is coming with touch UI), not Windows 7...
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My choice of words was wrong. My bad. I was meaning that they should do something, something faster than what they are doing. Phones are moving closer and closer to PC capabilities.
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.

vetvito said:
Windows Media Center sucks balls compared to Google TV, and Apple TV. I'm seriously thinking about throwing my HTPC out the window. Its embarrassing. I mentioned it because Microsoft basically invented this market, and now they've been left behind. Sort of like what's going on now.
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Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.

emigrating said:
Windows Media Center is still the absolute best platform out there. Google TV has nothing on MC7. That said, they [MS] have definitely mismanaged the "platform", I say "platform" because Microsoft never saw it as a platform (God knows why?!). WES (Windows Embedded - which is basically a modularized version of Windows 7) should change this though. There were a few MC7 appliances on show at CES earlier this year and if they can deliver they will kill the competition.
From a WAF perspective nothing is close to MC7. From a live TV perspective the other platforms aren't even in the same ballpark.
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I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.

vetvito said:
I'd like to know more. Honestly elaborate more. Media Center is awfully slow compared to Google TV. I don't have a gtv, but I demoed it. You can search for shows and the web in a overlay of what you're currently watching on gtv. On my HTPC running windows 7, that's impossible. Starting Media Center is unbelievably slow, and browsing through media in media center is not fun. Its laggy as hell. On GTV its instant.
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If you find MC7 to be slow there is a problem with your machine (either hardware or software wise). I'm running it on several HTPCs in the house and there is no lag what so ever.
Comparing it to Google TV is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but that's pretty much it. Google TV does not have a live TV option as such - you have to feed the output of your DVR or whatever thru the gtv box. MC7 on the other hand accepts tuners (either local or remote) and acts as your DVR.
If you press the Guide button on your MC7 remote while watching TV it will overlay ontop of what you're watching, exactly like gtv. The guide is also one of the best in the industry (depending on your location of course). You also get [some] internet TV built in, but more can be added by installing a Hulu plugin. In addition you have Netflix etc.
I will agree that browsing the media on MC7 using the built-in functionality is rather lacking, but there are plenty of third-party apps that help with this. myTV is great for downloaded/recorded TV shows and My Movies is great for movies.
I've been using HTPCs for around 10 years and MC7 is IMO still the best option available and I've tried them all - multiple times

I'm running on a AMD 6000, dual core 3.2 ghz. 4gb of ram. That's more than enough for media.
Have you tried XBMC? It runs circles around Media Center. I haven't tried those plugins you mentioned, I will do that today.

Reminder: Don't expect the 8.1 Preview to behave.

It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.

SilverHedgehog said:
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
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expecting bumps. so far it's good and I am not experiencing any hiccups yet. I very much like the changes.
cheers

Well, I found it rather buggy - though considering how I use it, I'm rather surprised how well it works in 8.0. Still, a warning might be a good idea - I'm sick of people attacking companies when beta software is behaving like beta software.

It's also so limited in terms of the number of devices and regions it will actually install in, I rather get the impression it was a real rush job to try and show that improvements are at least coming at some point.

SilverHedgehog said:
It's a beta! It's buggy, it's slow (at least on a Surface RT).
If you use your tablet daily, stay away from this thing. Wait for the full release.
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I don`t stand by you .I think the RT 8.1 is perfect。The experience on my surface RT is nice

seven7xiaoyang said:
I don`t stand by you .I think the RT 8.1 is perfect。The experience on my surface RT is nice
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I second that.. My Surface is faster and smoother now. Especially with IE11. I have no more lags or getting the Browser to freeze. I love it!

I have the 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT and it seems fine. I wouldn't caution anybody against it based on what I've seen so far.
Tk

ToddKlindt said:
I have the 8.1 Preview on my Surface RT and it seems fine. I wouldn't caution anybody against it based on what I've seen so far.
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Jailbreak. 'Nuff said.

Using Spotify crashes the browser - worked perfectly in 8.0.

A reminder to all who find bugs: PLEASE report them to MS! This is our last chance to ask Microsoft to fix things while the software is in development. Once it ships and gets handed off to a maintenance team, changes will be much slower to arrive.
Note: while the continued restriction on running our own desktop apps is not strictly a bug, this is also a good time to complain to MS about that; it's a very easy policy for them to change, if they decide it would be worth it!

So far my experience with windows rt. 8.1 is very nice. I like the outlook 2013, the keyboard and the response time of the tablet.

GoodDayToDie said:
A reminder to all who find bugs: PLEASE report them to MS! This is our last chance to ask Microsoft to fix things while the software is in development. Once it ships and gets handed off to a maintenance team, changes will be much slower to arrive.
Note: while the continued restriction on running our own desktop apps is not strictly a bug, this is also a good time to complain to MS about that; it's a very easy policy for them to change, if they decide it would be worth it!
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You need to read up on win32 vs. RT as well as some basic application architecture, then you will see why your complaint isn't valid.
Just because it has a pretty desktop and a run box doesn't mean apps magically work... Code for winform apps has to be compiled for arm vs x86/x64 to function and that just isn't going to happen. Explorer is there for a shim/stopgap.. By win9, will likely be gone for good.
This is like winnt on alpha and 2008 on titanium all over again... Except its now in the hands of consumers that don't understand what's going on under the covers.
MS should have never put a traditional desktop/explorer in RT and just finished the port of apps to modernui because its confusing to the average user.
Just think if apple had a shortcut in iOS to give you a macosx desktop that didn't run Mac apps..
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

@libbycm: Despite being here even longer than I have, you appear to have no idea who you're talking to *or* what you're talking about.
I maintain the Ported Apps thread for RT, and have ported a few of them myself (and should get back into it with something more realistic than Chrome, which I still hope to get working Some Day Soon Now). I am quite *personally* familiar with the requirements of porting, the difficulties of working around missing functionality (almost all of which, it should be noted, is missing by design and not neccessity), and the realities of what an ARM processor can and cannot do.
First of all, .NET apps (including WinForms ones and even once that use COM or P/Invoke to system libraries) work just fine, no recompile needed. That's a pretty small portion of the overall Windows software ecosystem, of course, but it's a growing one and also it's one that would be seen as worth targeting by more developers if they saw an actual benefit to architecture-independent toolchains on Windows.
Second, and related to the first, .NET is far from the only architecture-independent language. Java (though IKVM, though .NET) kind of works on RT already; it wouldn't take much to make a serious platform worthy of an official port. Same for Python, and we already have Perl. Yeah, that's still miniscule next to the bulk of legacy x86 code, but it would nonetheless make RT a far more popular platform (for example, many of the Windows bittorrent clients are either Java or Python code, and some very popular games are written in those languages).
Third, even with the crippled tools that we have cobbled together to do our porting, and despite the fact that it's all done on our own time, we've managed a fair number of native ports already. There'd be far more if it weren't for the fact that we can't port closed-source programs (and many open-source ones don't happily compile under MSVC, which is the only RT-targeting compiler we have right now). Already, a growing number of programs are natively available on x64 - after all, it's just a drop-down selection and another click on "Build" in Visual Studio. Well, the same is true of RT. It wouldn't get legacy software, but there's no reason that *new* software released in the last half year - even proprietary commercial stuff - couldn't support RT. After all, it's more customer base for almost no additional work (supporting x64 is sometimes actually more work than supported ARM; at least ARM uses the same-width pointers as x86).
Fourth, legacy code is - by its very nature - older code and generally suitable for running on less-powerful systems. You mentioned Apple... but you failed to mention that when Apple went from 68k CPUs to PowerPC CPUs, and then from PPC to x86, they used mostly-transparent emulation layers to bridge those gaps. Yeah, the code ran slower, but it ran well enough for most purposes. Yeah, ARM is *less* powerful than x86, not more powerful (although you could argue that the same is true for some use cases when going from a G5 to a first-gen Core Duo), but we've also gotten better at this emulation thing. When Apple did it before, they hired the best folks in the business, and pushed the entire field of CPU emulation forward with their need to make it work. When Microsoft declined to do that, one guy on XDA took it upon himself, in his free time, with only a partial toolchain and no access to Windows internals, hacking on open-source pieces, and built a transparent emulation layer for RT. Microsoft's Windows application compatibility team almost certainly loses more man-hours in one day's bathroom breaks than @mamaich has been able to spend on that project to date, and yet some of those very same people who pushed the whole industry forward at Apple, doing things like inventing what is today called dynamic recompilation, now work at Microsoft. They have the expertise to make it work if they'd wanted to.
Fifth, Windows on Itanium failed (mostly; it's still being used, just not developed) because Itaniums were targeted specifically at the enterprise market but weren't very good even there; there's plenty of software for that instruction set in the aforementioned market. Alpha (never mind Windows on Alpha, which I actually know people who used and worked on) failed because DEC wanted outrageous sums of money for it, seeking high-end margins instead of embracing the commodity market. Had they done otherwise, they might even still exist as a company today. NT on MIPS and PPC was similarly niche, targeting brand new (and poorly-merketed) segments that didn't have great penetration in the ecosystem (NT for PPC was a server/workstation OS, not a MacOS alternative). Unlike all those achitectures, though, ARM is well established in the consumer market for commodity computers, and its market share there is growing. If Microsoft is serious about succeeding with RT (and I think they are), they should look at the success story in that market... and it's not Apple anymore. Despite Apple's huge first-mover advantage with the consumer market, Android is rolling over them. Yet Microsoft seems determined to repeat many of Apple's mistakes, despite having precious few of its advantages. They need to make themselves a better Android, not a me-too Apple clone.
Sixth, while Microsoft has made no secret of their desire to move to WinRT, I don't really forsee them having much more success with that than with their prior effort to move people to .NET; lots of small developers will go, but the big programs that are the movers and shakers of the Windows world will stick with the vastly more powerful, flexible, and (frankly) useful Win32 API. Porting an app to RT is a hell of a lot harder than porting x86 native code to ARM, though...