Related
Word on the street is the Kaiser will appear on September 3, 2007 via AT&T and be known as the 8925. See http://crunchgear.com/2007/08/09/breaking-att-tilt-price-and-launch-date-leaked/
So, question: Have any of our insider cooks gotten their hands on a Kaiser? And, if so, what's the process like for flashing one? As painless as the 8525, or a chore like the 8125?
While we're talkin' about it, what is the technological spec differences between the Kaiser and Hermes? Other than a fancy flip feature, I cannot see a spec which leads me to believe it's any better than the Hermes.
Thanks,
J
why don't you go read up in the kiaser section of Xda! this is the hermes part. the specs blow the 8525 away go do some research.
I did read up on it prior to the post. But, thanks for the words of wisdom.
Having read up on it, my thoughts are: you are easier to impress than I. As a slower CPU and larger RAM doesn't equal something blowing away something else. In light of that, I thought there was perhaps I was missing.
J
IronManDS said:
I did read up on it prior to the post. But, thanks for the words of wisdom.
Having read up on it, my thoughts are: you are easier to impress than I. As a slower CPU and larger RAM doesn't equal something blowing away something else. In light of that, I thought there was perhaps I was missing.
J
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wow u really need to learn how to read more before posting. the cpu on the kaiser is a qualcomm 400mhz dual core cpu as far as i know. our hermes have a 400mhz since core. difference is that the kaiser has 1 core to handle phone functions and another to handle programs making it superior to the hermes. go on modaco and read what paul has to say. when u add hsupa, 7.2mbps hsdpa, 256 rom, 128 ram, tilt screen, improved scroll wheel, slides other way, touchflo, gps, 3mp with a good night mode and good sensor, better keyboard, lights for function and caps above keyboard, and do all this in a thinner package then u know u got a good upgrade to the kaiser. by the way, roms will be just as easy to cook as on hermes. all u need is to get a kaiser to olipro to do cid and simunlock and hardspl and get a cook like me a kaiser and ull have great roms. i seen the roms and have dumped them so i know.
Thanks for the detailed reply. That's exactly what I was looking for!
As for the CPU, the wiki here states that it's a 384MHz, not 400. But, most other things I've seen say 400. I didn't know it was dual core, so appreciate that info!
And, with the specs as you detailed them, I'm now excited and thinking about an upgrade! But, the wiki's details are not so stimulating
Also, I would imagine you're right re: flashing, as the Kaiser is quite similar to the Hermes. I was just having horrible thoughts of flashing my kid's 8125 and hoping that I wouldn't be buying myself a headache if I purchase the Kaiser.
Thanks again!
J
woa!! its dual core... really awesome too bad the resolution stay the same as hermes if only it was better, like 640x480 or maybe more like toshiba portege G900 having a 800x480 resolution screen...
I can say it`s an awesome device !
IronManDS said:
Thanks for the detailed reply. That's exactly what I was looking for!
As for the CPU, the wiki here states that it's a 384MHz, not 400. But, most other things I've seen say 400. I didn't know it was dual core, so appreciate that info!
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From what I can recall, the Samsung chips outperform Intel chips by a good margin -- when the 300Mhz Samsung was introduced a few years ago it held it's own with the then industry standard Intel PXA 25x clocked at 400Mhz. A 200 Mhz TI OMAP conserves power better than an intel clocked to the same frequency. In that sense, comparing the clock frequencies isn't all that revealing.
Who knows how the Qualcomm chips perform compare to the Samsungs? For all we know a dual Core Qualcomm could be worse that the 400 Mhz Samsung in the Tytn. It's unlikely, but not unprecedented that WinCE PDA specs stagnate or get worse from one generation to another. When HP took over Compaq a few of the iPaq lines ended up with slower processors.
Personally, I'd wait to see some benchmarks on the Kaiser before I buy.
rob.ocelot said:
From what I can recall, the Samsung chips outperform Intel chips by a good margin -- when the 300Mhz Samsung was introduced a few years ago it held it's own with the then industry standard Intel PXA 25x clocked at 400Mhz. A 200 Mhz TI OMAP conserves power better than an intel clocked to the same frequency. In that sense, comparing the clock frequencies isn't all that revealing.
Who knows how the Qualcomm chips perform compare to the Samsungs? For all we know a dual Core Qualcomm could be worse that the 400 Mhz Samsung in the Tytn. It's unlikely, but not unprecedented that WinCE PDA specs stagnate or get worse from one generation to another. When HP took over Compaq a few of the iPaq lines ended up with slower processors.
Personally, I'd wait to see some benchmarks on the Kaiser before I buy.
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I've seen some benchmarks and they all SMOKE the Hermes.
http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/msm7200_chipset.pdf
thats the spec sheet for the processor. according to it there is a 400mhz application processor and 274mhz microprocessor. also shows hsdpa up to 7.2mbps and hsupa up to 5.76mbps. will be a nice phone with a awesome processor.
but again back to the threat subject - will it be a problem to change the radio rom on the Kaiser ?
I'm not sure if this is still relevant, but a thread at the beginning of June suggested that new handsets with 3G chips from Qualcomm were banned from the USA while a trade dispute was being settled. Has this dispute been settled yet? If not then you guys in the USA may not be seeing your Kaisers for quite some time.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=310885
The P4550 (aka Kaiser....AKA AT&T 8925 TILT)
Is being released September 3rd only at AT&T.
AGAIN 8925 TILT WILL BE RELEASED SEPT 3rd.
I work for AT&T Wireless....this what I was told.
herg62123 said:
The P4550 (aka Kaiser....AKA AT&T 8925 TILT)
Is being released September 3rd only at AT&T.
AGAIN 8925 TILT WILL BE RELEASED SEPT 3rd.
I work for AT&T Wireless....this what I was told.
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Click to collapse
Not anymore. It's now been moved back to September 17th so they can get rid of some of the excess 8525's. I heard this directly from an HTC AT&T rep.
Hi Chainfire,
Thank you for the clarification in the last thread on the different Qualcomm processor variants.
Admittedly I am still a little dubious about your specs because I'm sure I saw a datasheet for the 7200a that stated it was 90nm - however I know that you have been in this game for while (ROMs et al) so I will accept them and verify them when I get a moment)
I also agree that the TP2 did feel snappier than the TP1.
However your argument concerning the TP being a repackaged Tytn2 is a very weak one for the reasons you specified and many others.
The TP is clearly a different class of device in comparison to the Tytn 2 and definitely doesn't feel repackaged.
Also the phones have not simply been repackaged over the last few years, I've had most of them with considerable improvements in each until we reached the Qualcomm era pre snapdragon...
Also I'm not a fan for the 7200 series qualcomm processors for all types of video related reasons.
The snapdragon (also qualcomm) demonstrates innovation and shows promise as well as potential.
On another tangent I'm really loving the snapdragon capabilities they've demonstrated runing android in the netbook market at the moment too (720p hardware encoding and decoding according another engadget and gizmodo.
As usual - Time will tell - it never lies!
Question - Doesn't anyone else feel a little betrayed at the rate of hardware/software innovation in WM products at the moment?
I surely can't be the only one.
I've used these devices for ages and after seeing things like the Palm Pre and IPhone I feel a little frustrated.
qazzi76 said:
Hi Chainfire,
Thank you for the clarification in the last thread on the different Qualcomm processor variants.
Admittedly I am still a little dubious about your specs because I'm sure I saw a datasheet for the 7200a that stated it was 90nm - however I know that you have been in this game for while (ROMs et al) so I will accept them and verify them when I get a moment)
I also agree that the TP2 did feel snappier than the TP1.
However your argument concerning the TP being a repackaged Tytn2 is a very weak one for the reasons you specified and many others.
The TP is clearly a different class of device in comparison to the Tytn 2 and definitely doesn't feel repackaged.
Also the phones have not simply been repackaged over the last few years, I've had most of them with considerable improvements in each until we reached the Qualcomm era pre snapdragon...
Also I'm not a fan for the 7200 series qualcomm processors for all types of video related reasons.
The snapdragon (also qualcomm) demonstrates innovation and shows promise as well as potential.
On another tangent I'm really loving the snapdragon capabilities they've demonstrated runing android in the netbook market at the moment too (720p hardware encoding and decoding according another engadget and gizmodo.
As usual - Time will tell - it never lies!
Question - Doesn't anyone else feel a little betrayed at the rate of hardware/software innovation in WM products at the moment?
I surely can't be the only one.
I've used these devices for ages and after seeing things like the Palm Pre and IPhone I feel a little frustrated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why has this been brough back to life? DaveShaw closed the last thread, can't you respect that and leave it for a bit?
No clearly I can't.
While the TP2 isn't that bad a device - if all else fails I will probably end up with one - There is an underlying issue here that needs to be discussed and addressed that isn't only applicable to the Touch Pro 2.
And further more I'm not offending anyone I'm encouraging discussion that needs to be encouraged.
I've been here since 2004 and been using these devices before 2004 and am seriously wondering what's happening with WM in the industry lately.
- WM7 promised the world but has yet to see the light of day.
- We still don't have properly implemented VGA recording in our devices
- Rich application experience is only available through 3rd party programs and pluggins when it should be available at the OS level.
- Why on earth do some programmers know how to manipulate the hardware at OS level better than Microsoft, the people that make the OS (Example Point UI)
Seriously what is going on here?
Have you seen the Palm Pre?
Have you seen the Iphone?
Have you seen Android Cupcake?
What do we have?
Microsoft has given us a half a hearted attempt at an OS refresh (6.5) and embarassingly all our rich app experiences are provided by third parties.
Why couldn't HTC release Rhodium level hardware with Android?
As for processor specs:
From the MSM7200A datasheet that I "absolutely don't have":
7200: 90 nm CMOS (15 x 15 x 1.4 mm)
7200A: 65 nm CMOS (15 x 15 x 1.4 mm)
Some more interesting changes in non-A vs A are that the A has 24bpp display support for EBI2, and the memory is clocked at 166mhz instead of 128mhz (aside from the obvious 528mhz (533 officially) addition) and also uses a different GPS core. I assume all the latter is also in the 7201A but I cannot verify that, so...
As to the repackaging thing, perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not feel like the TP is a repackaged TyTN II, nor do I really feel the TP2 is a repackaged TP. But, if you say the latter you should also say the former - the thread starter only did the latter. Even if for one you may feel instinctively that it isn't repackaged and for the other you do, it's either both or neither, from my viewpoint.
I agree there have been many improvements, but most of them were not in the 'bare' hardware. And that was the discussion point of the thread starter, who stated in one of his posts that we were not talking about software. Obviously, casing, screens, etc have improvements as well as the software.
Again, I love the TP2. The first time I played with one was love at first sight.
As for video, the 7200 series is more than capable - just not supported very well. With fully optimized drivers and software, video playback should be much better than it is right now. Its the old trick of unleashing a little bit more potential with every device release to get people to upgrade. Sound business model, but obviously us techs frown at it.
As for snapdragon, I agree it has got awesome capabilities, but there are some caveats (note that I already played with snapdragon devices and it felt really fast to me... much faster than TP2).
Caveat #1: How will it stack up versus the Tegra? I've also seen Tegra (test) devices in action up close (no touching, though, and it was bigger than my pocket) and it did seem extremely awesome.
Caveat #2: It's still Qualcomm. While HTC is partially to blame for the whole mess the past few years, so is Qualcomm. Both of these companies continuously let us down performance-wise. Will the old dogs learn new tricks? Will major corporations ever actually care about their customers? Will they ever deliver what they promise? We are talking about HTC and Qualcomm here, and due to past experience I wouldn't put the chances of that very high.
Of course, Microsoft also has a big role to play in optimizing WM. It's a dog. But it's improving... I do have high hopes for WM7.
Do I feel betrayed? I don't think that's the correct word, but yes, I am disappointed (even if I do love the TP2 ). I think over time things will get better though. WM being the slow dog that it is, with the latest hardware and some effort it should still be technically possible to top iPhone performance by a large margin.
I can easily understand your frustration though. I am myself heavily invested in WM (my livelyhood actually depends on it) so I am also frustrated. It can be much better!
Hi Chainfire,
Oh - I see... Got you.
So the A supports higher bit resolution displays and has faster memory!
Ok I stand corrected about the MSM7200 series processors.
Somehow I'm not surprised the hardware is capable of good Video - I just haven't experienced it.. yet.. - But I also put that down to poor colaboration (possibly deliberately) on MS, HTC and Qualcomms part)
I also have been wondering about the Tegra but I see it taking ages to come to market based on NVidia's PDA GPU efforts before which eventually materialised in Dells axim x51v (PDA) initially and then imates 6150(Phone) ages after anouncement.
Obviously this could change.
I agree the Tegra is a worthy force to be reckoned with if implemented correctly - I unfortunately have only seen working examples of the Tegra on Youtube but what I have seen has been very very impressive GUI wise.
The Snapdragon looks kinda crazy too with its 1.3ghz potential when its already flying at 1ghz on the TG01 and the whole netbook angle/implementation of snapdragon.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what WM7 has to offer although I imagine it's must be a little difficult for you at the mo with the whole Android and apple app store gaining ground and making their mark in industry.
Anyhow I wish you good luck with your WM based business projects/ventures.
Maybe tp2 use msm7201A http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=522460
That would be interesting, it is listed as 7200A everywhere on the net. But as some people already have one, perhaps they should check the about screen?
Mine still not in...
EDIT: Checked FCC pics, that one indeed seems to have 7201A. Wonder if the EU version will also have this or have 7200A. We'll know soon enough I guess!
Chainfire said:
That would be interesting, it is listed as 7200A everywhere on the net. But as some people already have one, perhaps they should check the about screen?
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Click to collapse
UK version 7200A-528MHz, according the the About screen.
Hmm, that makes it likely the US versions will be MSM7201A and the rest of the world will get MSM7200A... Interesting!
out of interest im in uk and mine has the 7200A...
Hi,
Not to long ago samsung released their new dual core processor "Orion" with has some amazing specs. They says it will be up for mass production in frist half of 2011.
Both qualcomm and lg has also new smartphone processors coming next year.
Will future windows phone 7 devices feature this? The snapdragon in the current devices is kinda outdated...
My ultimate windows phone 7 phone would feature:
512 meg ram or more
at least 1GHz Orion or similar dual core processor
800 x 480 or greater super-amoled multitouch screen
4" screen
Sleak design in aluminium
Yeah.
WP7 will get put onto all the new software as its needs to compete with Android and the iPhone.
Although the 1GHz snapdragon is a little outdated now i think some people don't realise that it is still a beast of a processor, and WP7 has been specifically designed to run perfectly on it as it was the minimum requirement for Hardware Manufacturers don't forget.
Having Qualcomms "Still in Development" 1.5 Dual Core inside a device would be fantastic, but it's not going to happen anytime soon (2012 at the earliest) and for the time being that doesn't bother me the slightest as my HD7 runs smooth as anything with what it's got. I doubt a dual-core processor would increase the usuability of any of the WP7 Phones, the only thing it would do is reduce loading times of App's/Games/etc, which is currently only seconds anyway.
Agreed, I believe in Q2 2011, the processors will finally be available for manufactures
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Audio said:
Although the 1GHz snapdragon is a little outdated now i think some people don't realise that it is still a beast of a processor, and WP7 has been specifically designed to run perfectly on it as it was the minimum requirement for Hardware Manufacturers don't forget.
Having Qualcomms "Still in Development" 1.5 Dual Core inside a device would be fantastic, but it's not going to happen anytime soon (2012 at the earliest) and for the time being that doesn't bother me the slightest as my HD7 runs smooth as anything with what it's got. I doubt a dual-core processor would increase the usuability of any of the WP7 Phones, the only thing it would do is reduce loading times of App's/Games/etc, which is currently only seconds anyway.
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Click to collapse
True but what about Samsungs Orion then?
The other reason why im waiting for a New wp7 device is the lack of exchangeable storage on all devices...
my only concern is about the compatibility of the Phones with LTE technology as Verizon's LTE network will be up in my area by the end of the year.
i'm waiting 1G ram with using nvidia Tegra 2 cpu + 5-7 point mutil touch
CE7 supports multi-core ARM CPUs. There are plans to move WP7 to CE7 (it's currently on a CE6/7 variant) later on. That should happen before dual core chips are a reality so there's no reason Microsoft won't move to it. I would guess that would come with a major software and hardware spec update, maybe WP8. There's no point in tossing the current WP7 on much more powerful hardware because the software won't take advantage of it. Games and apps will still be targeted at the 1ghz SnapDragon so basically things will just load faster.
People really need to get out of this hardware spec mentality. It doesn't matter if the phone had a 100mhz CPU if it performs well. I know that's hard if you're a techy but you have to focus on the end result, not the pieces that make it happen.
hkcyber said:
i'm waiting 1G ram with using nvidia Tegra 2 cpu + 5-7 point mutil touch
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Is this for real? Why would you need 5-7 touch points? Can you even fit 7 fingers on a 4in screen?
I sure as hell hope that Microsoft won't allow this on Pad devices.
Sure the idea with Pad devices might be good, but not with an OS built for a 4" display.
Sir. Haxalot said:
I sure as hell hope that Microsoft won't allow this on Pad devices.
Sure the idea with Pad devices might be good, but not with an OS built for a 4" display.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, if MS comes out with a pad, I hope they alter the OS or make a new one optimized for a pad sized screen.
So,
I'm waiting for the Dell Venue Pro to be released, but it keeps getting delayed...
I'm wondering if some manufactureres would be releasing new phones close to the release of the dvp, thuss, maybe there would be some better phones by then...?
Anyone read something interesting?
quinstar said:
So,
I'm waiting for the Dell Venue Pro to be released, but it keeps getting delayed...
I'm wondering if some manufactureres would be releasing new phones close to the release of the dvp, thuss, maybe there would be some better phones by then...?
Anyone read something interesting?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's truly an interesting question for one reason: MS will be doing updating and all phones are suppose to be similar hardware wise...to avoid fragmentation. I believe, with the exception of screen types and camera res, that every WP7 phone currently released, and likely the CDMA versions included, use the same processing hardware.
The reason this is interesting is because, how will MS handle hardware evolution. These WP7 phones certainly can't remain the same forever. Eventually there will be 1.5GHz CPUs and higher res screens. How will MS handle incorporating phones equipped with higher speed CPUs and higher res screens into WP7 filled with the current tech. The whole point of WP7 is keep things level across the board. A current 1GHz SnapDragon certainly would not be level with a 1.5 or 2GHz FlamingLizard dual core CPU.
MartyLK said:
That's truly an interesting question for one reason: MS will be doing updating and all phones are suppose to be similar hardware wise...to avoid fragmentation. I believe, with the exception of screen types and camera res, that every WP7 phone currently released, and likely the CDMA versions included, use the same processing hardware.
The reason this is interesting is because, how will MS handle hardware evolution. These WP7 phones certainly can't remain the same forever. Eventually there will be 1.5GHz CPUs and higher res screens. How will MS handle incorporating phones equipped with higher speed CPUs and higher res screens into WP7 filled with the current tech. The whole point of WP7 is keep things level across the board. A current 1GHz SnapDragon certainly would not be level with a 1.5 or 2GHz FlamingDragon dual core CPU.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Phone 8 in a year?
It'll be like games consoles, a new one every 5 years or so. After all, with the OS being as fast as it is on 1GHz processors, nobody cares about 1.5GHz ones. Except geeks.
As a geek, I can say that I would insta-buy a FlamingLizard device. That name is just pure awesome.
Seriously though, certain hardware was specified because MS is providing the correct drivers to use that hardware correctly (glowers @ HTC). When new stuff hits, MS will pick a new item they like, make drivers for it, and tell OEM's what to use, just like they've done with the current line. MS has way too much invested in WP7 to let it get relegated to second-rate hardware. Even if Metro doesn't ask for a huge level of processing power, MS is heavily pushing live integration, and I believe that they will be all over stuffing powerful processors into phones in order to sell them as gaming platforms.
MS could go apples way.
Every year in november for example, ms could allow to use higher hardware.
Like: iphone 2g, 3g, 3gs, 4
And ms give us a wp7 version for each generation of wp7 phones
i think the best way for MS to give the hardware manufacturers more capabilities would be to set up benchmarking for all the different components. have the current components as the benchmark for example, and if they want to change say the CPU/GPU, it has to outperform the current benchmark. this way, it becomes a lot more like Android in the manufacturers can make the devices the way they'd like using the parts they'd like.
the only issue is, MS would need to be involved in creating every driver for every different component. i think at present it's quite restricted down to particular components so that you get a good boot up time and running experience, because there isn't redundant/generic drivers on the phone.
As far as I know the requirements aren't as specific as what people are saying, but more "Minimum Requirements"
From what I can remember it's something along the lines of
AT LEAST a 1ghz Processor
AT LEAST a 3.5" Screen
AT LEAST 8Gb Storage
etc etc.
So new devices can come out with faster processors, they wont though... Manufacturers will milk the cheapest hardware for as long as they can. I would expect a rehash of requirements each year.
The whole point of it all isn't really to keep things level, it's to make sure that underpowered devices aren't released that run the OS like crap (Eg Wildfire, Tattoo) and also so that devices aren't released running a version of the OS that's over a year old (Xperia X10)
yeah thats what I was wondering. Those were the minimum requirements not specific reqs as people assume. The hardware manufacturers just stuck to those to save costs. I'm sure if MS did not have these then they would have used even lower end crap, thus destroying any chance WP7 has of attaining success.
FL5 said:
As a geek, I can say that I would insta-buy a FlamingLizard device. That name is just pure awesome.
Seriously though, certain hardware was specified because MS is providing the correct drivers to use that hardware correctly (glowers @ HTC). When new stuff hits, MS will pick a new item they like, make drivers for it, and tell OEM's what to use, just like they've done with the current line. MS has way too much invested in WP7 to let it get relegated to second-rate hardware. Even if Metro doesn't ask for a huge level of processing power, MS is heavily pushing live integration, and I believe that they will be all over stuffing powerful processors into phones in order to sell them as gaming platforms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 for the flaminglizard dual core cpu. or even blazedmonkey dual core cpu. or bullsballz dual core cpu. so long as it's dual core, i'll buy it. hell, i might even buy it if it ran windows, then dump a android rom on it and have a flaming-dog-ballz rooted/ unlocked dual core cpu smash phone.
HA
ohgood said:
+1 for the flaminglizard dual core cpu. or even blazedmonkey dual core cpu. or bullsballz dual core cpu. so long as it's dual core, i'll buy it. hell, i might even buy it if it ran windows, then dump a android rom on it and have a flaming-dog-ballz rooted/ unlocked dual core cpu smash phone.
HA
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Click to collapse
LMAO...funny stuff!
cbebop7 said:
yeah thats what I was wondering. Those were the minimum requirements not specific reqs as people assume. The hardware manufacturers just stuck to those to save costs. I'm sure if MS did not have these then they would have used even lower end crap, thus destroying any chance WP7 has of attaining success.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think what certainly would have happened, at least with HTC is they would have 1 premier device, probably the HD7 in it's current iteration. The rest of the devices would then go from Bad to Absolute ****. The Trophy or Mozart would probably have a smaller screen and a severely slow processor by today's standards.
What will happen eventually is someone will realise that the majority of the handsets are the same and release something with better specs than the current bunch in an attempt to stand out from the crowd. My guess is it will be LG
Here's my take on it.
First half of 2011:
* Chassis 2 handsets start appearing, being technically the same as launch devices.
Come November 2011:
* WP8 devices come consisting of second or third gen snapdragons and/or introduce another SoC like Hummingbird or OMAP.
* Chassis 3 handsets also start appearing (tablets or gaming style deisgn like PSPhone maybe?)
My wishes:
* Resolution bump for tablets and smartphones
* Hero phone introduced by Microsoft (much like the Nexus series), Zune/xbox phone anyone?
edit: looks like WP8 will actually be coming out end of 2012 http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/windows-phone-7-mango-rumors
The following article is not even remotely related to E4GT (or Samsung for that matter) but I found it very interesting... There's a strong possibility of Intel dominating all mobile processors starting 2014 - 2015 ...
http://liliputing.com/2012/04/intel-pushes-atom-chip-for-android-devices.html
EDIT: I just noticed that the website (or maybe the user) removed the second post that I copied below.
You can skip the actual article, but read the comments (from user CyberGusa) :
While as for what advantages Intel can start to offer, it's what Chippy from UMPCPortal would call High Dynamic Range Computing (HDRC). Unlike ARM, Intel is fully capable of scaling from the mobile range to the full desktop range.
This will be especially true if Windows 8 is successful, as x86 can offer legacy support where ARM can't, and can provide the higher range performance that ARM is still many years away from being able to provide as their high end next gen offerings will only rival the present gen Intel ATOMs.
MS in particular is patenting a way to easily switch between CPU's when docking. So could make a Windows system literally scale from mobile to laptop and even desktop by just docking it.
The closest ARM based devices will get to this scaling is switching from a ARM to higher end Intel or AMD chip when docked but this will also involve switching from a mobile OS to a desktop one to fully take advantage of the switch.
Though Google is making progress towards making Android a more desktop friendly OS, like with Webtop and similar UI optimizations that take over when docked that would allow Android to take advantage of such scaling but would still be more limited than switching to a true desktop OS that isn't designed with the limits that a mobile OS will have to deal with no matter how the UI is altered and optimized,
Failure of Windows 8 though could well give ARM the advantage.
Intel though is hedging its bets with support for Android and of course the Tizen project. They already bought a company last year that provides them the option to easily switch between two OS instantly, without rebooting.
While they are compensating for what advantages ARM has over them by keeping ahead of the manufacturing shrink curve by at least a year.
So while ARM is heading towards 32 and 28nm productions, Intel is heading toward 22nm and that combined with the architectural updates could potentially start giving Intel the edge.
Mind also that there have been problems with the 28nm production and Intel has strategically not helped ARM with this issue. So time table for many gives them limited time for market penetration before Intel will be able to come out with their own 22nm chips and 14nm is scheduled for 2014.
Also consider that it's not the general consumer market at stake here but also the embedded and server markets, which could give Intel more of a advantage considering that x86 hardware can run pretty much any OS but ARM is still limited to OS already optimized for it.
While ARM is also depending on Windows 8 being a success to provide it a mainstream desktop OS to provide the ability to start competing in the traditional PC markets, and thus would also be negatively effected if Windows 8 fails.
So while ARM is looking good for the rest of this year, it remains to be seen if that will remain true next year and Intel should never be underestimated.
More comments from the same user (CyberGusa):
Right now Intel only has dual core in their higher end ATOM lineup and up to 8 cores for the server market, neither of which are competing with ARM yet.
The upcoming dual core Medfield is mainly just planned for the Tablet market and shouldn't effect the Smart Phone market.
So the main advantage of ARM solutions right now is that they're much more mainstream for the mobile market, with Intel only beginning to compete for the first time. Much like how Nvidia when they first introduced the Tegra and shows slow beginnings are not indicative of how they will do in a year or two.
While as already mentioned the Intel ATOM's are still using pretty much the same architecture as when it was first introduced to the market in 2008. This is like comparing the Cortex A15 to the older Cortex A8 based ARM chips and having the Cortex A8 solution still holds its own.
So having it even come in the same ball park is actually a testament to how much ARM still has to catch up for the higher performance range they're only now entering.
Mind beating the ATOM isn't really hard, as that's the bottom of Intel's chip offerings, with the Core i-Series offering multiples times better performance that ARM is still years away from even getting close to.
While the next gen ATOM's coming out next year are Intel's equivalent of a A15 update to the ATOM. Introducing many of the technology they developed for Ivy Bridge to the ATOM.
Like Intel's Tri-Gate Transistors, a HD 4000 based GMA, putting the entire lineup under SoC, offering a wider range of processor configurations, finally adding Out Of Order Processing to the ATOM, among many other improvements.
While ARM manufacturers are having problems, the delay in moving to 28nm being the most outstanding right now, which is why many are still opting for 32nm. Especially those who have yet to deal with the increased problem of power leakage as they continue to shrink the FAB.
Even Apple is still on 45nm with their latest iPad and had to increase the battery size by 70% to compensate for the increased power consumption of the retina display and the quad core GPU's requires.
So they may up their game but it's going to get harder for them here on out as ARM was designed for low power and low performance and need time to evolve to be able to apply itself to higher end applications.
While Intel already dominates the higher end and just wants to start penetrating into the lower end and that's going to be arguably easier for them to do than for ARM to keep on increasing its performance.
Mind, ARM is still a 32bit architecture and only recently introduced designs for 64bit. This means they're still years away from going fully 64bit and for now we're only going to see enhancements like 64bit memory management.
While it's not easy to continue providing increasing performance and still keep costs and power consumption low. Also ARM customizations has the down side of increased hardware fragmentation.
So it's not like Intel doesn't stand a chance, it's just going to take awhile to see if they can really start competing in the mobile market or have to stay in the higher end PC market.
Comment as you see fit, and keep in mind these are just opinions, not facts !!!
First...
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Even if Intel is not on top by then they will make sure the bar is set high. Good read.
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Good read. If Intel is truly interested in advancing the mobile field, I can see them doing big things in the future. At the very least, the competition they bring to the market will keep everyone else on their toes.
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intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
Oh and Intel is known for making low battery consumption processors. Can't wait for that by them making small chips only nanometers big
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kc_exactly said:
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
peryp9 said:
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since when Intel has Black Edition CPU?
And about locking out other video card vendors from the system, are you sure you know what you talking about?
locoboi187 said:
intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
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Click to collapse
Intel can school everyone else on microprocessor development, manufacturing, budget, evolution...but...x86 is known power hungry. I'm sure if they keep reducing their process (which they will) they can get x86 to match arm, energy consumption wise. But, on the same token, ARM will (WILL) get developed to a point where they will match x86 performance wise.
It's anybodies race. It's early (yes, very early) in the mobile computing game. Intel could very well pull through with it's very refined architecture....that's also regarded as crufty as fnck. The ARM architecture could very well also be refined to the point where they get as many operations per clock...both neck-and-neck on power efficiency.
All said, I'm both excited and doubtful in intel's ability. Microsoft is becoming irrelevant at an amazing speed...perhaps it's intel's turn as well. Wintel? Armdroid? A mix of the two?
Exciting times. Bring on the competition.
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xeon server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. They did not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did, they wouldn't pounce like they did on amd... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
lilotimz said:
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xenon's server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones , which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which did passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. Not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel Black Edition ... Intel Extreme Edition ... the idea was "top of the line". Look at the point I'm trying to make, not the wrong words I used.
Intel may claim that their integrated graphics are great for many thing, but look at the larger picture... pay premium dollar for the ability to use the video card of your choice !!
EDIT: The cheapest processor comes with integrated graphics, while the most expensive one comes without it. I remember when I bought my laptop a few years back (1st generation Intel i5). I was reading about Intel not allowing manufacturers to put other cards in order to bypass the integrated one. In the end, I bought this Intel i5 laptop with NVidia GeForce 325M with Optimus. Check to see how Optimus works with Intel's integrated card and you'll understand what I meant in my previous post.
In the end, the main point I'm trying to get across, is that Intel's products are great (except their video cards) but their marketing scheme will hurt the consumers if they take control of the mobile processor.
All the info by the commenter not withstanding, I have a hard time taking anyone who uses "effect" instead of "affect" seriously.
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