Currently I'm an HD2 user. I like the fact that Android has started to port onto the HD2. Still I know it's a long ways from being done or close to done and so far the only one I can think of being anywhere near done is the TP and TP2. Both have been out long enough to at least have the Android port worked on for a longer time. While I do read that it's good a lot of Android phone users suggest that the porting comes no where near close to how well the real Android phones work. Is this true? As far as apps and functionality and comparability goes how close is the Android port to the real thing? Would some of you rather have a real Android phone instead of this?
Phenomenon said:
Currently I'm an HD2 user. I like the fact that Android has started to port onto the HD2. Still I know it's a long ways from being done or close to done and so far the only one I can think of being anywhere near done is the TP and TP2. Both have been out long enough to at least have the Android port worked on for a longer time. While I do read that it's good a lot of Android phone users suggest that the porting comes no where near close to how well the real Android phones work. Is this true? As far as apps and functionality and comparability goes how close is the Android port to the real thing? Would some of you rather have a real Android phone instead of this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The closest to a native Android device would be the vogue. They pretty much have functionality everywhere and even flash to nand. In comparison we aren't too far behind as the things we are currently lacking is the camera.
Obviously there are bugs here and there but its still usable. Older builds are more stable and we've just recently jumped onto 2.2 Froyo so it will take some time to fix the bugs. We've actually accomplished something great and actually surpass a native android phone in benchmark scores even though our devices aren't hugely optimized. I've seen the HD2 video booting XDANDROID; i've even posted it in our 2.1 thread and from what i see its was running pretty quick during the SetupWizard. cough* cough* ...snapdragon ;p
Lastly yes i would never go back to WM or even get an iphone. I've bought a nexus one and have never looked back. From what i see once you go Android you don't go back and at Google IO they certainly showed us why.
I would love to start adding support for HD2 for XDANDROID. But i'm currently busy with my new role as Moderator
babijoee said:
The closest to a native Android device would be the vogue. They pretty much have functionality everywhere and even flash to nand. In comparison we aren't too far behind as the things we are currently lacking is the camera.
Obviously there are bugs here and there but its still usable. Older builds are more stable and we've just recently jumped onto 2.2 Froyo so it will take some time to fix the bugs. We've actually accomplished something great and actually surpass a native android phone in benchmark scores even though our devices aren't hugely optimized. I've seen the HD2 video booting XDANDROID; i've even posted it in our 2.1 thread and from what i see its was running pretty quick during the SetupWizard. cough* cough* ...snapdragon ;p
Lastly yes i would never go back to WM or even get an iphone. I've bought a nexus one and have never looked back. From what i see once you go Android you don't go back and at Google IO they certainly showed us why.
I would love to start adding support for HD2 for XDANDROID. But i'm currently busy with my new role as Moderator
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
buts thats interesting. You said you got a Nexus One is that because you just felt like the android porting for this phone wasn't good enough?
Phenomenon said:
buts thats interesting. You said you got a Nexus One is that because you just felt like the android porting for this phone wasn't good enough?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got a nexus one because its cool and has great specs and also because of the android ports. You cant stay on the same phone forever and it was time for me to upgrade and at the time TP2 or topaz didn't interest me. So i decided to wait for N1
For me it is very close to replacing WM on my raph110. Really, battery life issue is holding me back. I can turn off sync and run as "just a phone" for a long time, but as soon as I start to use it as a smartphone, I better make sure I am near a power supply.
As a phone its better than winmo IMO, making and receiving calls and SMS is downright clunky in WM compared to these android builds.
All it would take for me to switch is the ability to run with sync on, and use some moderate smartphone-y features here and there for an entire day and I am set. At the moment I use android when I am plugged in, then reboot into WM when I know I am going to be away from power for a length of time.
Compared to other android phones I have played with, the raph seems downright speedy. Most time when I have played with android phones they seem laggy and slow, where my phone with these android builds seems much more responsive and mostly lag free. I have considered picking up an Aria if I come across a cheap one but only because of the battery thing and no other reason.
To give you more info I have a Fuze (raph110) and run NRG's WM 6.5.5 / SenseUI 2.5 ROMs.
The best part of this project is you run WinMo in tandem - Android is simply running off of the SD card, so there's virtually nothing that would break your phone or SD card permanently. All of the outright hardware failures I've seen in any forum related to this project has been a simple hardware failure - nothing with Android broke the device basically.
So try it out! You've got nothing to lose. Then you'll have a much better idea of how 'functional' it is
Well I have tried it on the HD2, but nothing is exactly functional to say the least. I mean, it runs, but not much else to say about it. I wonder when they port and finish being able to get the antennae working, gps, camera, wifi, bt, etc. what all that will mean as far as how functional it will be. Will programs be able to be installed and USE all the functional devices? Games supposedly need OpenGl to work and I bet that is another can of worms. I'm all for it working and everything, but I wonder if when the project ends will it be that much better or am I better off getting a Nexus One in the end.
Phenomenon said:
Well I have tried it on the HD2, but nothing is exactly functional to say the least. I mean, it runs, but not much else to say about it. I wonder when they port and finish being able to get the antennae working, gps, camera, wifi, bt, etc. what all that will mean as far as how functional it will be. Will programs be able to be installed and USE all the functional devices? Games supposedly need OpenGl to work and I bet that is another can of worms. I'm all for it working and everything, but I wonder if when the project ends will it be that much better or am I better off getting a Nexus One in the end.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well I don't know if it'll *ever* be truly perfect compared to native devices... but looking at a) what we have working on our TP's and b) what the vogue guys have working on their devices....
Basically it looks like it'll be darned close to having an actual Android device... which is amazing, to say in the least. I'm not sure how long the vogue's battery lasts, but other than that and camera, our devices are fairly complete on the hardware front. Vogue's even have a functional camera!
3d is also working, so OpenGL will not be a problem It's just a matter of getting the 3d drivers for the GPU!
arrrghhh said:
Well I don't know if it'll *ever* be truly perfect compared to native devices... but looking at a) what we have working on our TP's and b) what the vogue guys have working on their devices....
Basically it looks like it'll be darned close to having an actual Android device... which is amazing, to say in the least. I'm not sure how long the vogue's battery lasts, but other than that and camera, our devices are fairly complete on the hardware front. Vogue's even have a functional camera!
3d is also working, so OpenGL will not be a problem It's just a matter of getting the 3d drivers for the GPU!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do you think it's worth holding onto the device and not just get an Android device just yet? How long would you all feel it'll be till Android is as usable on the HD2 as it is on the Vogue or any multi-boot device?
Also, still what about the programs? Like if you have a program like Shopsavvy and you have the camera working will it and should it work on the device like the Vogue? Or is it a no go because it's not a legit supported device?
Phenomenon said:
So what do you think it's worth holding onto the device and not just get an Android device just yet? How long would you all feel it'll be till Android is as usable on the HD2 as it is on the Vogue or any multi-boot device?
Also, still what about the programs? Like if you have a program like Shopsavvy and you have the camera working will it and should it work on the device like the Vogue? Or is it a no go because it's not a legit supported device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In the end its entirely up to you. The HD2 has started on its journey to port linux and there no timeline on when it will be done. Even our linux kernel is not complete but devs are working on it and it grows and grows.
So if you have the dough and time go and try out a android device and see what you think. If you like go buy it otherwise be patient like most other members and you'll see a functional port guarenteed.
Apps will work if you have the function available in most cases.
babijoee said:
In the end its entirely up to you. The HD2 has started on its journey to port linux and there no timeline on when it will be done. Even our linux kernel is not complete but devs are working on it and it grows and grows.
So if you have the dough and time go and try out a android device and see what you think. If you like go buy it otherwise be patient like most other members and you'll see a functional port guarenteed.
Apps will work if you have the function available in most cases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. I used XDAndroid on my Fuze to decide that Android was in fact for me, and I bought a Motorola Milestone. We have a mostly working system here, the battery life sucks and theres no camera (and there was no bluetooth when I upgraded, nor was there 3D obviously, and Cellular had problems staying connected) but I was able to get a feel for the Android system, the market, what was out there and decided to make a go of it. I've been quite happy. I keep coming back to see Android on my Fuze because I have a feeling that it'll make a good spare device, or a giveaway device, or whatever. Even if it is just an MP3 player with a prepaid SIM in it that I can leave under the seat of my car - I'll be getting more mileage on this device running Android than I would on Windows Mobile.
dieKatze88 said:
....I'll be getting more mileage on this device running Android than I would on Windows Mobile.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, Im just disolved now with WM, had a look at XDAndroid and am impressed big time.
Once this is an every-day OS to run (in terms of battery life and stability) I will have the device I wanted to start with....forward facing cameras for video calling (when its available), hardware keyboard and a nice form factor.
XDAndroid runs seemigly far nicer than the native OS the phone was designed for!!! Says it all!!
Phenomenon said:
Like if you have a program like Shopsavvy and you have the camera working will it and should it work on the device like the Vogue? Or is it a no go because it's not a legit supported device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Shopsavvy will not work properly on the Vogue because the camera on the Vogue has a fixed focus, and the barcode recognition algorithm in Barcode Scanner (ZXing) and Shopsavvy is not advanced enough to recognize blurred barcodes like RedLaser can on the iPhone 2G/3G. Once the camera works on the RAPH, Shopsavvy should do well on it since as far as I know the camera has autofocus.
Camera apps in general are hit and miss because Android has a rather poor camera API which exposes a lot of the underlying camera implementation (color space, framerate, encoding) to the app trying to use the camera - this is why whenever a new official Android phone comes out there are generally new versions of camera apps on the market (the Samsung Moment was the worst culprit of this - almost no camera applications worked out-of-the-box on it).
But as a rule of thumb - yes - the phone is running Android and the fine people working on development try to implement everything to spec, so for all intents it appears to an application the same as any "official" phone does. As a matter of fact, the Android porting community is doing *exactly* what a phone manufacturer does internally when releasing a new Android phone - just more publicly and with less documentation and more reverse-engineering.
I love xdandroid,i don't use camera so only the market bug in the latest froyo bulid is a bad thing for me,but i think that babijoee and all the xdandroid team can fix it.
the only thing that i wish is a flashable android so no more wm!
HELICOPTER88 said:
I love xdandroid,i don't use camera so only the market bug in the latest froyo bulid is a bad thing for me,but i think that babijoee and all the xdandroid team can fix it.
the only thing that i wish is a flashable android so no more wm!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What Market bug? Did you try deleting your data.img?
i think all the new problems may be due to old data.img
Since the framework and structure of the updates are always updated/changing we do require people to have a new data.img
If problems persist after making a new data.img then we will have to look into it
The camera and the extremely innaccurate battery meter are dealbreakers for me I really hope you'll manage to fix it soon, btw why not make a thread called "What we're working on", would be pretty interesting
arrrghhh said:
What Market bug? Did you try deleting your data.img?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah i deleted it,2 times.
the problem is when i try to log in with a google account or when i try to create one,i put username and password,i press next and after 5 minutes it says impossible to connect to google's server
i connect through wi-fi and connection works...maybe i should try to log in when no sim inserted,because doing a fresh install of android without sim solved this problem when i was using donut 1.6
HELICOPTER88 said:
Yeah i deleted it,2 times.
the problem is when i try to log in with a google account or when i try to create one,i put username and password,i press next and after 5 minutes it says impossible to connect to google's server
i connect through wi-fi and connection works...maybe i should try to log in when no sim inserted,because doing a fresh install of android without sim solved this problem when i was using donut 1.6
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hrm. I've never had a problem "signing into" the Market... I guess I didn't even realize it had to sign in, but it does make sense.
Try the trick w/o the SIM card. I don't have a SIM, and I've never been able to reproduce the error.
Mr.Sir said:
The camera and the extremely innaccurate battery meter are dealbreakers for me I really hope you'll manage to fix it soon, btw why not make a thread called "What we're working on", would be pretty interesting
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"Whatever we feel like today" doesn't seem very interesting.
Related
this is just personal opnion, but this version blows away the 3/31 build. i juss had issues with data not wrkn but i fixed it with the tips in the threads. I hear people talk of stability. well, to me, this new sense version moves way faster and smoother. really. juss make sure to cut off the 3d harware box..it isnt wrkn and will slow things up. i have more features working in this install than the 3/31 build.
my last install didnt load all the folders right and i never saw a keyboard selector or update. checked thru everywhere in device, no luck..but it still worked, i juss couldnt auto update and i was getting hung up trying to change the files. Now, with this new install...everything is perfect..lol i know have "andboot" folder....my last install named it "Android" and no matter how many different ways to change folder name or replace, it didint work. Now all i gotta do is auto update..which i did with this install also..wrks perfect. now my my dual boot wont recognize it...i tried to different versions the 1.05 and 1.06 Gene Y dual boot cabs, no luck..not worried though, i figure it soon enough.
almost half the day been on Sense...i always keep a charger close by. lol for all the skeptical people, wifi does work..i tested it..its pickn up signals...my 03/31 install didnt wrk..as far as wifi goes...im making and recieving phone calls...juss set your calls and txts and emails to vibrate...it works..all my data wrkn perfect...i got opera mini 5 up here along with a ton of stuff i downloaded..lol
A smart move to do is to use your Astro Explorer and press menu to back up data/apps..u can bck up all ur dwnloaded stuff from the market or wherever..and be able to reinstall them if u ever reinstall a new xdandroid version or somethng. ive did install/uninstall numerous times already..so knowing i still have my programs backed up is good. get opera if u havent....its way faster thn the android one. i got programs im dying to use once everything wrks on this build like my morse coder or the virtual walkie talkie apps..i cant say enuff how truly amazed with this forum, its members, and the Feats being accomplished here. and they do this for free...Unbelievable...THANK YOU DEVELOPERS N ALL WHO MADE THIS BUILD POSSIBLE. i cant wait to show this off to my pops and friends back home...ima blow their mind...
Im staying with Sense 2.1........cuz IT MAKES SENSE...lmao
to me this is better than last version and moves faster, at least on my tilt2 it does...oh and if u want true speed readings, get the Speedtest.net app frm da market..its free... if u think im pulling your chain on this build, juss look at da sig..im on android sense now on xda app..wit no problems..im goin crazy ova here on how cool this is...i just joined this site not too long ago n already got my phone on a whole new level of being upgraded..i got all da fixes. 3D DRIVERS...DA LIST Goes on and on..too cool
Sent from my Hero using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
How did you disable 3d hardware?
Love the sense interface on android
jebuske said:
How did you disable 3d hardware?
Love the sense interface on android
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
in your startup.txt change hw3d.force=1 to hw3d.force=0
psyopstt said:
in your startup.txt change hw3d.force=1 to hw3d.force=0
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or if you're using the startup utility then just uncheck the box.
i think I've confirmed that rooted apps and WiFi tethering works on this build. i downloaded barnacle wifi tethering app from the marketplace that said ur device needed to be rooted in order to work. well it seems to wrk. i know wifi wrks for sure and data, so therotically should. i gave my old tilt to my mom so cant test right this second but the program runs fine and commands say its broadcasting successfull. goodnight..lol
Sent from my Hero using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
Which installer did you use? The .cab or the .rar?
demandarin- would you say the new build is stable for the majority of Android features? What's your opinion on using it as your default OS system for the Tilt 2?
hey
this is a great version and i think its basically usable for people who arent dying for the GPS, bluetooth, and camera. the one thing that is killing it for me though is the lack of the speaker and headphone jack working. that is the only features preventing me from using it all the time.
i know these guys are making great progress but does anyone have any idea when theyre gonna at least solve that issue? because im sure that would bump up its mass appeal
Running_Roti said:
hey
this is a great version and i think its basically usable for people who arent dying for the GPS, bluetooth, and camera. the one thing that is killing it for me though is the lack of the speaker and headphone jack working. that is the only features preventing me from using it all the time.
i know these guys are making great progress but does anyone have any idea when theyre gonna at least solve that issue? because im sure that would bump up its mass appeal
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They work on this daily. It could be tomorrow, it could be never. There is no time line, or guarantee.
demandarin- would you say the new build is stable for the majority of Android features? What's your opinion on using it as your default OS system for the Tilt 2?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its pretty stable, to me. it isn't my default OS yet but keeping it on longer and longer everyday. I be pushing da limits on this build. as far as apps and modding Android within itself. essential functions wrk like being able to make/receive calls, txts,data,WiFi...I can even do WiFi tether wit app I found on marketplace. I had marketplace wrkn but I messed around and now its saying serve error but my gsm and data wrk fine...marketplace acts funny at times..lol ill get it wrkn again soon, already deleted data img. I get tired of reading all my settings and apn and downloads..I hve alot..there's some good tool apps on mrktplce
Sent from my Hero using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
eghoti1 said:
demandarin- would you say the new build is stable for the majority of Android features? What's your opinion on using it as your default OS system for the Tilt 2?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I personally think its SO annoyingly slow. I'm constantly waiting for screens and lists to populate, and it makes me feel like I am using WinMo again. Contacts take forever to load, and the sms app, takes FOREVER to populate. Then when you're trying to do something sense will force close itself, and then you find yourself staring at a black screen with "htc" on it, and you have to wait for it to completely start Sense again. Personally if I want sense UI, ill use WinMo ROM with it, at least everything works that way.
The AOSP 2.1 is WAY smooth, and SO fast, and a more "official" release. 110Mb free ram vs 45Mb sounds WAY better to me.
demandarin- would you say the new build is stable for the majority of Android features? What's your opinion on using it as your default OS system for the Tilt 2?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I personally think its SO annoyingly slow. I'm constantly waiting for screens and lists to populate, and it makes me feel like I am using WinMo again. Contacts take forever to load, and the sms app, takes FOREVER to populate. Then when you're trying to do something sense will force close itself, and then you find yourself staring at a black screen with "htc" on it, and you have to wait for it to completely start Sense again. Personally if I want sense UI, ill use WinMo ROM with it, at least everything works that way.
The AOSP 2.1 is WAY smooth, and SO fast, and a more "official" release. 110Mb free ram vs 45Mb sounds WAY better to me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried to get that version but the link was messed up or actn up...ill tke your advice and try it out..
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Reefermattness said:
I personally think its SO annoyingly slow. I'm constantly waiting for screens and lists to populate, and it makes me feel like I am using WinMo again. Contacts take forever to load, and the sms app, takes FOREVER to populate. Then when you're trying to do something sense will force close itself, and then you find yourself staring at a black screen with "htc" on it, and you have to wait for it to completely start Sense again. Personally if I want sense UI, ill use WinMo ROM with it, at least everything works that way.
The AOSP 2.1 is WAY smooth, and SO fast, and a more "official" release. 110Mb free ram vs 45Mb sounds WAY better to me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok well that is a damning summary coming straight from the horses mouth! Thanks for all the advice everyone, sounds like AOSP 2.1 is the way to go for stability. Can't wait to try this out. I won't have to switch between my G1 and Avantage for much longer.
i downloaded that 2.1 no sense last night after i posted. I installed it juss like any other build but couldnt get it to finish the haret loading. 3/31 2.01and the 4/23 2.1 w/Sense builds i had no problem installing and running. I even checked the folders and it was all correct, in the andboot folder with all the necessary files in it. Even updated the 2.1 AOSP b4 running it the first time. the first time right after haret started up, it got hung up in the beginning..so i rebooted to try again. this time the haret ran the loader all the way till the end and got hung up right b4 the startup screen. said something about trying to init. pid or something. it kept on searching and repeating the command but no luck. i shut it down after i seen it aint gonna load up..lol i really do wanna try this build also but get tired of uninstalling and installing and setting up all my settings again. i have a ton of downloaded apps for the android already. after no success, i just installed the sense one again. Wrks wit no problems..lol
Theres ways to make it run faster within the os itself. I found alot of good memory manager apps and startup auditors. The reason i believe it runs laggy at times is because of all the programs always starting up without u even doing anything. U gotta kill apps all the time. I cant remember the name, but i have this memory app tool that lets u set a minimum and maximum MB for ur programs. For example i set it to 50mb, the program starts killing off apps in order of priority in order to maintain at least 50mb threshhold. works pretty well to me. i might try that 2.1 no sense build again another day but im stickin with the Sense build for now. It has potential..lol
eghoti1 said:
ok well that is a damning summary coming straight from the horses mouth! Thanks for all the advice everyone, sounds like AOSP 2.1 is the way to go for stability. Can't wait to try this out. I won't have to switch between my G1 and Avantage for much longer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't get me wrong, Im not saying you shouldn't try it. Different people have different tastes, you might LOVE it!
demandarin said:
i downloaded that 2.1 no sense last night after i posted. I installed it juss like any other build but couldnt get it to finish the haret loading.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ill build a new cab within the next day or 2. You're not the only one that had problems with the AOSP .cab.
thanks,..im sure we all will be Patiently waiting..lol
Reefermattness said:
They work on this daily. It could be tomorrow, it could be never. There is no time line, or guarantee.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah im glad theyre working on it either way, but ill only start using it as my full time OS when they get that feature in at least. but it sure is fun to mess around with in the meantime
yeah, i believe its gonna come soon. I be away from my phone alot and need to hear it when a call comes in or i get txts, or "BACKGROUND Notifications"..lol that made me laugh...thinkin of somethin someone else told me in another thread.. I believe Reefer posted up the new cab for the 2.1 non-sense version. I havent gottn to try it out yet. Im still havin fun with the Sense version. Plus finding out how to cut the Sense UI off is a big plus for me. Now everytime my device boots into Android, It asks me what UI i want to use. Either Home, Sense, or Launcher. if i use home or launcher , it loads right up. Not like when using Sense and its loading forever. I like it cuz i have the option to choose.
Market filters:
When a user searches or browses in Android Market, the results are filtered, and some applications might not be visible. For example, if an application requires a trackball (as specified in the manifest file), then Android Market will not show the app on any device that does not have a trackball.
The manifest file and the device's hardware and features are only part of how applications are filtered — filtering also depends on the country and carrier, the presence or absence of a SIM card, and other factors.
Changes to the Android Market filters are independent of changes to the Android platform itself. This document will be updated periodically to reflect any changes that occur.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does anyone have any idea what the market filters are checking against?
That's not really a good reason to do anything, let alone not using 2.2
dik23 said:
That's not really a good reason to do anything, let alone not using 2.2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not being able to get apps? Did you read the link? Doubtful. Uh sure. Have fun with vanilla 2.2 and 0.0 apps.
I'm sorry, did you read your own link? If you had scrolled down, it shows several examples of what can be filtered. The filters are implemented by the application developer themselves, and if they don't, they still show up in the market.
Besides, filtering by the application has been in Android since 2.0. Any application that deems a device incapable of running it (for example, a lack of a light sensor) can stop itself from running.
some kind of filter (the ones I've heard of so far are incompatible screen resolution, unverified builds, and protected apps) is already being applied to 2.1 in the AOSP build. I couldnt see Yelp, the Android Community and TMZ apps for whatever reason
cashless said:
Not being able to get apps? Did you read the link? Doubtful. Uh sure. Have fun with vanilla 2.2 and 0.0 apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh yeah, how suspicious. French people couldn't possibly prefer apps in French and people with that new Dell pad thing probably still want SMS and contact apps.
Yeah
so you are saying not upgrade to 2.2 because marketplace will filter apps for our phone, but stick with 2.1 because it doesn't?
well genius, why don't you go and install http://www.appbrain.com/app/com.yelp.android on your phone and let us know how that 'no filtering' works out for you.
When I was running my Vougue we ran into this problem as well, its not a big deal at all. from what I remember it was checking about the build.prob and screen size that is setup in your startup. what I used to do was set my phone to my the specs for the G1, then install the apps after adjusting the density to fit everything on screen and then reboot using factory startup. it worked pretty well for most of the apps since many only blocked off whatever border the developer had.
heres the problem though but with the pace we are going it wont come up for a while, once we decide we have a rom stable enough to flash we lost the abilty to change the settings since WM is copletely gone and no haret was used. I switched over to the Touch Pro and we had the exact same problem which was solved in the EXACT way but we were not flashed still(TP2 still has a LOOOONG way to go sad to say), kept the touch pro 2 for only a few weeks before they replaced my Sprint Line TP with a Touch pro 2 due to all the TP1 problems and i'm still saddened by the slow progress. I am a developer myself and even an avid budsmoker and was still able to help out. now Refer has done a great job but from my understanding he is just doing most changes to the Android Filesystem, theirs a couple other guys working on the kernels which would be were all the hardware problems are going to be fixed from. no matter what build we use something in the kernel is either not right, or we dont have the driver in place for Android itself and since we have few Hardware level developers working on these things it seems to be low progress.
is it possible for palm web os on evo
No and if someone pulled it off there would be a cease and desist almost immediately
jesus h christ....seriously i want to know where people come up with this ****.
No.
Theoretically, they could put any Open Source OS on just about any hardware (so long as it is built for an ARM architecture CPU). If you want to have a closed source OS (like iOS, WinMo, WebOS, Blackberry OS [oh dear God WHY?!], Mac OSX Leopard, etc...) on your hardware, you'll pretty much have that pre-installed on the device. That's why you can put Android onto the HTC HD2, but you can't put WinMo 6.5 on the EVO 4G.
Bottom line, if you want WebOS+ Android, you'll have to buy Palm Pre if you even want a chance (though, why would you, why not just wait for some killer HP+Palm hardware?). You'd be much better off just trying to theme Android and looking for apps that can simulate the advantages of WebOS (pre home speeds up task switching, and TaskOS does an ok job too).
Just started using a pre, its really a good OS on some bad hardware, but its a good OS while android is a great OS. WebOS only has one thing on android and that is the ability to easily switch between open apps. i would even be satisfied with the way WinMo allows you to switch between apps and close them without even opening them.
*EDIT*
testing those two apps you mentioned, pre home does not work with killing apps for me, taskos seems to work much better, and it has swipe up and down for quick app killing/safelisting.
davebu said:
Just started using a pre, its really a good OS on some bad hardware, but its a good OS while android is a great OS. WebOS only has one thing on android and that is the ability to easily switch between open apps. i would even be satisfied with the way WinMo allows you to switch between apps and close them without even opening them.
*EDIT*
testing those two apps you mentioned, pre home does not work with killing apps for me, taskos seems to work much better, and it has swipe up and down for quick app killing/safelisting.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The pre's build quality was **** but its hardware is the same as the iphone GS. Why does it stutter and lag then? Because its terrible coded.
Y web OS? Isn't android OS good enuff?geeeez!!!
- sent from beneath the earth
zikronix said:
jesus h christ....seriously i want to know where people come up with this ****.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't use the LORD's name in vain. I can't stand when HIS name is used as a curse word. Nobody disses Mohmammed or Budda, yet folks want to diss Christ without thinking twice.
agonzalez1010 said:
Don't use the LORD's name in vain. I can't stand when HIS name is used as a curse word. Nobody disses Mohmammed or Budda, yet folks want to diss Christ without thinking twice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
/sarcasm???
tmacgarris6727 said:
is it possible for palm web os on evo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"evo you look good won't you back that nand up, damn that rom is fine won't you back that nand up, dude that's a sweet theme won't you back that nand up, what a cool lock screen won't you back that nand up"
Tilde88 said:
"evo you look good won't you back that nand up, damn that rom is fine won't you back that nand up, dude that's a sweet theme won't you back that nand up, what a cool lock screen won't you back that nand up"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol, Juuuvy!
The hardware and design of this phone are top notch - most features work really well except anything in regards to multi-tasking. I am very disappointed that its missing basic functionality I thought should be pretty standard these days especially on a flagship device. Case in point - Usa today app, its always been really nice while traveling since I can sync it before flying and read all the articles while in-flight on my iPhone during airplane mode, with the One X any open browser page or related app becomes a useless blank page when airplane mode is switched on. Heck even the picture I had open in the gallery section closed and took me back to the main gallery (picture) folder and of course this does not need an internet connection.
It looks like Sense 4.0 has eliminated multi-tasking, as much as I like the device otherwise I just cant give up so much basic functionality that I have been enjoying for years on other phones... Will probably have to return and go back to my iphone 4 for now.. Bummer -
It does not appear that HTC recognizes this short-coming as a problem and considers this normal functionality so I cant just wait for an update/fix...
Anyone else feel this way ?
Srgsx said:
The hardware and design of this phone are top notch - most features work really well except anything in regards to multi-tasking. I am very disappointed that its missing basic functionality I thought should be pretty standard these days especially on a flagship device. Case in point - Usa today app, its always been really nice while traveling since I can sync it before flying and read all the articles while in-flight on my iPhone during airplane mode, with the One X any open browser page or related app becomes a useless blank page when airplane mode is switched on. Heck even the picture I had open in the gallery section closed and took me back to the main gallery (picture) folder and of course this does not need an internet connection.
It looks like Sense 4.0 has eliminated multi-tasking, as much as I like the device otherwise I just cant give up so much basic functionality that I have been enjoying for years on other phones... Will probably have to return and go back to my iphone 4 for now.. Bummer -
It does not appear that HTC recognizes this short-coming as a problem and considers this normal functionality so I cant just wait for an update/fix...
Anyone else feel this way ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
multitasking is a bit of a joke on this phone. I hope HTC addresses this in a future update.
sent from my HTC One X
Since Sense + OS alone consume most of the ram (> 80%) on the device, I suppose integrated Android task killer is configured in some paranoid mode and is killing backgroups apps like crazy.
If this bothers you, I would install one of senseless ROMs on your HD2 and be happy Possibly there is also a way to make task killer more civilized in custom Sense ROMs.
Sadly, Sense 4.0 is quit bloated and One-X should have at least 1.5GB of RAM to begin with.
Yup, I agree, multitasking is really bad... All my dolphin browser pages reload if I click the home button and try to go back.
Sent from my HTC One X on Leedroid's ROM v5.1.0.
It will addressed with uopdates after all you bought a quad cote for multi tasking, some of xda chefs are communicating with HTC dev and we reported the very aggressive memfree values, also if you are rooted you can control them with supercharger script
Srgsx said:
Case in point - Usa today app, its always been really nice while traveling since I can sync it before flying and read all the articles while in-flight on my iPhone during airplane mode, with the One X any open browser page or related app becomes a useless blank page when airplane mode is switched on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I change the wireless state on my i9100 the same thing happens so it's Android, not HTC or the One X. Even if the USA Today home page was retained clicking on any of the stories would result in an error because there's no wireless connection available. Get an app like Pocket that allows you to save articles from across the web for offline reading. The CNN app also gives you the option to save stories offline.
The multitasking on this phone sucks period. There is not justification. I should not be here looking for an answer. XDA devs should be enhancing the phone not trying to fix basic functionality. I hope HTC solves this problem before my trail period.
mgfjd said:
The multitasking on this phone sucks period. There is not justification. I should not be here looking for an answer. XDA devs should be enhancing the phone not trying to fix basic functionality. I hope HTC solves this problem before my trail period.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do any of you understand how multitasking in Android even works? Even if a task is killed by the OS, apps developed that follow the published standard will re-launch in their last state in less than a second. And the better XDA devs should know that. So while HTC's memory management may be aggressive, there's more to it if individual apps aren't behaving correctly.
http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html
Srgsx said:
The hardware and design of this phone are top notch - most features work really well except anything in regards to multi-tasking. I am very disappointed that its missing basic functionality I thought should be pretty standard these days especially on a flagship device. Case in point - Usa today app, its always been really nice while traveling since I can sync it before flying and read all the articles while in-flight on my iPhone during airplane mode, with the One X any open browser page or related app becomes a useless blank page when airplane mode is switched on. Heck even the picture I had open in the gallery section closed and took me back to the main gallery (picture) folder and of course this does not need an internet connection.
It looks like Sense 4.0 has eliminated multi-tasking, as much as I like the device otherwise I just cant give up so much basic functionality that I have been enjoying for years on other phones... Will probably have to return and go back to my iphone 4 for now.. Bummer -
It does not appear that HTC recognizes this short-coming as a problem and considers this normal functionality so I cant just wait for an update/fix...
Anyone else feel this way ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're not happy w it, return it ASAP. Why do you have to care about what others think? It's your money, your experience.
Case closed. Meetings adjourned lol
louis.b said:
If you're not happy w it, return it ASAP. Why do you have to care about what others think? It's your money, your experience.
Case closed. Meetings adjourned lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its called a forum, in which I can and will reach out to others to get feedback on what I consider a situation with a very flawed segment of Sense which is making me contemplate returning an otherwise very nice device.
Look Apple has been doing this puesdo multi-tasking, app-pausing just fine since 4.0 what the heck is HTC thinking ? Browser tabs store just fine for days WITHOUT an internet connection. I geuss I am just expecting too much.
Sorry to interupt move along nothing to see here - lol
If you really want to pile-on, head over here. The XL'rs are far more up in arms than the X'rs.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1646409
I've asked the same questions of people that say the way multitasking is implemented is a real hardship but no one's answered. What's the harm? Of "X" hours a day using the phone, what percentage of your time is actually spent active in two (or more) apps simultaneously? And with a powerful processor it shouldn't matter whether a background app is in state or has to be restarted based on the way Android works (see below). I'm not trying to pick a fight I'm trying to understand the depth of the issue.
And since no one's read the article I linked to, here's the cruxt...
Once Android determines that it needs to remove a process, it does this brutally, simply force-killing it. The kernel can then immediately reclaim all resources needed by the process, without relying on that application being well written and responsive to a polite request to exit. Allowing the kernel to immediately reclaim application resources makes it a lot easier to avoid serious out of memory situations.
If a user later returns to an application that's been killed, Android needs a way to re-launch it in the same state as it was last seen, to preserve the "all applications are running all of the time" experience. This is done by keeping track of the parts of the application the user is aware of (the Activities), and re-starting them with information about the last state they were seen in. This last state is generated each time the user leaves that part of the application, not when it is killed, so that the kernel can later freely kill it without depending on the application to respond correctly at that point.
And based on this, the SGS3's handling memory managment just like the One X so there don't appear to be a lot of options for those with special multitasking needs.
greyhulk said:
The GS3 has the same multitasking "issue" as the One X. I have tested it. That's all the more reason why I don't expect HTC to fix it in an update. I believe it's how the manufacturers intend it to work, for better or worse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try to install Apex launcher free version and set it as default launcher. Reboot and see is situation get better. If works for you then it is sense problem.
It works like a charm on my X. No any problem for multitask.And it is so smooth.
Of course if you do want sense launcher then have to live with issue. But no harm to try Apex to see at least multitask can wrok or not
BarryH_GEG everything looks nice when you write it down like that but i remember SGS did better multitasking then my new double ram HTC One X, on daily basis it kills everything when i9000 never killed my GG chatting app or music player - both just should be ON all the time i was using them thats only 2 apps to handle
At a co-workers urging I installed Go-launcher today in hopes of a quick fix. yeah nothing, still re-renders everything fricken thing it touches.
Should I stil try Apex ?
Apex so far is best launcher for one X. I used it for 1 month. If it is not work for you I will post another solution which may help.
Apex- ok you might be on to something !
Can still hold app data while in airplane mode...
Srgsx said:
the One X any open browser page or related app becomes a useless blank page when airplane mode is switched on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If your rooted then flash Jan's Advance Notification toggle to enable Airplane Mode it will retain the webpage because you're not going into a different app.
Srgsx said:
At a co-workers urging I installed Go-launcher today in hopes of a quick fix. yeah nothing, still re-renders everything fricken thing it touches.
Should I stil try Apex ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont think this is caused by sense taking up too much resources. Seems to be an ics inherent thing. The sgs3 was just reported to behave the same way.
Oh yes i tried the ipad3 the other day. The display was perfect but what surprises me is it multitasks amazingly well. I can have 5 - 6 apps open including youtube and browser with multiple tabs and it switches between them smoothly without once quiting the browser. Really sad to see android/ ics regressed to this state that ios significantly beat it.
if it is ics problem why I can use mutlitask on my one X?
Raider0001 said:
BarryH_GEG everything looks nice when you write it down like that but i remember SGS did better multitasking then my new double ram HTC One X, on daily basis it kills everything when i9000 never killed my GG chatting app or music player - both just should be ON all the time i was using them thats only 2 apps to handle
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I keep asking the question "what does it mean?" and everyone keeps replying "it shouldn't be this way." If a doctor says "there’s something wrong with your liver," there's a big difference between hepatitis A and stage 3 cancer. Other than the perceived loss of something you had how does the way that the One X handles multitasking affect what you do every day? And how often is it a problem?
I had a i9100 and in practical use I don't notice a difference. The exception being the browser that stupidly reloads itself every time it restarts but it does that regardless of whether launched from recent apps or directly from the app drawer or a shortcut.
And if this is true it doesn't really matter what a Desire, HD2, or SGS did.
greyhulk said:
The GS3 has the same multitasking "issue" as the One X. I have tested it. That's all the more reason why I don't expect HTC to fix it in an update. I believe it's how the manufacturers intend it to work, for better or worse.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Looking and searching for days on this topic. Could not find word on anybody working on it.
It is pretty heavy handed for Google to issue an update that reduces to functionality to their device. I use Adobe flash may be 5% of the time on my phone, but still, if I don't use it at all, I will just use an iPhone. No point in letting Google make money from my searches.
It's not Google job to keep Adobe Flash Player updated.
k3lcior said:
It's not Google job to keep Adobe Flash Player updated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Adobe flash player doesn't have to be updated. Out dated versions work fine on Android 4.3. But compatibility is completely gone on Kitkat.
Yes, because Adobe is no longer updating it.
This is what Dolphin says on the developer's website (https://dolphinbrowser.desk.com/cus...id-4-4-how-do-i-enable-flash-player-?b_id=317) --
The Adobe Flash Player is no longer compatible with Android 4.4 Kitkat devices. Some critical APIs have been removed from Android 4.4 Kitkat that all browser cannot activate the flash player. We are working on to provide better video playing experience.
sparksd said:
This is what Dolphin says on the developer's website (https://dolphinbrowser.desk.com/cus...id-4-4-how-do-i-enable-flash-player-?b_id=317) --
The Adobe Flash Player is no longer compatible with Android 4.4 Kitkat devices. Some critical APIs have been removed from Android 4.4 Kitkat that all browser cannot activate the flash player. We are working on to provide better video playing experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, but is anyone working on this at the rom level?
which APIs and why are they removed?
Galaid said:
which APIs and why are they removed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Website rendering is no longer done by AOSP(which renders flash). Now it's done by chromium (which doesn't render flash)
Lolento said:
Adobe flash player doesn't have to be updated. Out dated versions work fine on Android 4.3. But compatibility is completely gone on Kitkat.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As someone else already said, it's not Google's job to keep Adobe's app updated.
You're basically relying on old technology that should have been gone for a long time already. If you think about it that way, ask yourself, why doesn't Windows rely on MS-DOS anymore (it was there in older versions, so why isn't it there now)?
And I don't see how switching to iPhone would help in any way, you can't sideload apps or have Flash at all actually. Do you really want to go from a 7" screen to a 4" one? And wouldn't you use Google on iOS too?
Bogdacutu said:
As someone else already said, it's not Google's job to keep Adobe's app updated.
You're basically relying on old technology that should have been gone for a long time already. If you think about it that way, ask yourself, why doesn't Windows rely on MS-DOS anymore (it was there in older versions, so why isn't it there now)?
And I don't see how switching to iPhone would help in any way, you can't sideload apps or have Flash at all actually. Do you really want to go from a 7" screen to a 4" one? And wouldn't you use Google on iOS too?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your argument is exactly why I will not longer consider Android as my next whatever device. Even when MS no longer base windows on DOS, the underlying DOS commamds are still supported.
Google is pretty heavy handed in trying force users to move away from flash. There are better tech available, I agree, but there asre still tons of websites using flash exclusively. These websites are completely essentially to the people who use it.
I also want to ask, aside from flash, objectively, what makes Android better iOS. Nothing, imo.
I believe App vs App, the quality of Apps on iOS is better than Android, even the Google one. I dont really sideload anything aside from flash, which i use to access sports websites.
Lolento said:
Your argument is exactly why I will not longer consider Android as my next whatever device. Even when MS no longer base windows on DOS, the underlying DOS commamds are still supported.
Google is pretty heavy handed in trying force users to move away from flash. There are better tech available, I agree, but there asre still tons of websites using flash exclusively. These websites are completely essentially to the people who use it.
I also want to ask, aside from flash, objectively, what makes Android better iOS. Nothing, imo.
I believe App vs App, the quality of Apps on iOS is better than Android, even the Google one. I dont really sideload anything aside from flash, which i use to access sports websites.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android gives you customization where as iPhone pretty much tells you how your layout is going to be. A lot more freedom on Android, that is the biggest difference for me. You're definitely on the wrong forums to start an iOS vs Android debate though.
Lolento said:
Even when MS no longer base windows on DOS, the underlying DOS commamds are still supported.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Last time I checked the 16-bit subsystem was no longer there in 64-bit Windows.
Lolento said:
Google is pretty heavy handed in trying force users to move away from flash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't understand why you keep blaming Google and not Apple, who ceased development on Flash for mobile devices 2 YEARS AGO
Lolento said:
Your argument is exactly why I will not longer consider Android as my next whatever device. Even when MS no longer base windows on DOS, the underlying DOS commamds are still supported.
Google is pretty heavy handed in trying force users to move away from flash. There are better tech available, I agree, but there asre still tons of websites using flash exclusively. These websites are completely essentially to the people who use it.
I also want to ask, aside from flash, objectively, what makes Android better iOS. Nothing, imo.
I believe App vs App, the quality of Apps on iOS is better than Android, even the Google one. I dont really sideload anything aside from flash, which i use to access sports websites.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So your willing to go pick up a new over priced device which gives you next to no freedom on it for customization, for a old, out dated, inefficient system of flash? Even though that device also has no flash support ? Glad we settled that.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda app-developers app
Joppykid said:
Android gives you customization where as iPhone pretty much tells you how your layout is going to be. A lot more freedom on Android, that is the biggest difference for me. You're definitely on the wrong forums to start an iOS vs Android debate though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not even an iOS or Android debate, I can pick up a Windows device, who knows.
Google removing flash support is the last straw for me. And I am surprised that no else see it as getting escalatingly worse.
Here are a few things that Google did this year.
1. Gmail exchange active sync support removed
2. Youtube comment ties to Google+
3. Google dropping voice support for third party apps
4. And now removal of the killer app, adobe flash, that brought me over from iOS in the first place
Also, i have been using android for the past three years. The level of customization on Android is more of a toy box than anything else. With the removal of adobe flash support, the core functionality is identical and i would even give Windows Phone an edge over both iOS and Android.
Lastly, btw, this thread is about whether any dev is working to bring adobe flash back to 4.4. I didnt start this debate.
Lolento said:
This is not even an iOS or Android debate, I can pick up a Windows device, who knows.
Google removing flash support is the last straw for me. And I am surprised that no else see it as getting escalatingly worse.
Here are a few things that Google did this year.
1. Gmail exchange active sync support removed
2. Youtube comment ties to Google+
3. Google dropping voice support for third party apps
4. And now removal of the killer app, adobe flash, that brought me over from iOS in the first place
Also, i have been using android for the past three years. The level of customization on Android is more of a toy box than anything else. With the removal of adobe flash support, the core functionality is identical and i would even give Windows Phone an edge over both iOS and Android.
Lastly, btw, this thread is about whether any dev is working to bring adobe flash back to 4.4. I didnt start this debate.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Couldn't agree more... If only iOS have a 5" phone, I'd have jump ship.
The customization advantage is getting lesser by the day...
Lolento said:
This is not even an iOS or Android debate, I can pick up a Windows device, who knows.
Google removing flash support is the last straw for me. And I am surprised that no else see it as getting escalatingly worse.
Here are a few things that Google did this year.
1. Gmail exchange active sync support removed
2. Youtube comment ties to Google+
3. Google dropping voice support for third party apps
4. And now removal of the killer app, adobe flash, that brought me over from iOS in the first place
Also, i have been using android for the past three years. The level of customization on Android is more of a toy box than anything else. With the removal of adobe flash support, the core functionality is identical and i would even give Windows Phone an edge over both iOS and Android.
Lastly, btw, this thread is about whether any dev is working to bring adobe flash back to 4.4. I didnt start this debate.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How is comparing pros and cons of two competing operating systems not a debate?
You asked "what makes android better than iOS, nothing IMO" I told you what I liked about Android over iOS. And you only mentioned iOS and Android in all of your posts, nothing about windows.
I understand that flash is a big deal for a lot of people. I am unaware of any devs working on it. Sounds like it may be tough with Google removing the framework needed for flash. I doubt many devs want to put time in to developing something that is starting to get phased out. Good luck in your quest to find flash.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Joppykid said:
I understand that flash is a big deal for a lot of people. I am unaware of any devs working on it. Sounds like it may be tough with Google removing the framework needed for flash. I doubt many devs want to put time in to developing something that is starting to get phased out. Good luck in your quest to find flash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not just starting to get phased out. As far as Google is concerned, you aren't supposed to keep using an app that hasn't been updated for 2 years (and if the only app using the framework was pretty much abandoned a long time ago why would they have to keep supporting it?)
Lolento said:
Even when MS no longer base windows on DOS, the underlying DOS commamds are still supported.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does that compare? Want me to list the hundreds of programs that no longer work in modern Windows incarnations? How about most Creative sound cards? Is that MS' fault? I wouldn't say that, but you probably would.
Google is pretty heavy handed in trying force users to move away from flash. There are better tech available, I agree, but there asre still tons of websites using flash exclusively. These websites are completely essentially to the people who use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So Adobe is moving away from Flash for mobile and you are saying it's Google's fault for not making sure every outdated app works on their newest OS version?
I also want to ask, aside from flash, objectively, what makes Android better iOS. Nothing, imo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"objectively" - "imo". 'Nuff said.
I believe App vs App, the quality of Apps on iOS is better than Android, even the Google one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And that's your right, but don't spin it as anything other than your own biased opinion. Also, I'm pretty sure those sports websites never worked on iOS devices, ever.
I think its a good move by Google, the faster website developers will realize flash is outdated the better for everyone, less users using flash content because its incompatible will force them to switch to html5, sooner or later.
Homever Adobe should stop supporting desktop version too, it would fasten up the process alot.
Again, I was not inviting a debate in my OP. But if it needs to continue, it can.
Firstly, on Windows platform, in every modern iteration, there is a compatibility mode that maintains (to a certain extent) backwards compatibility. This is how MS does business, they dont go out of nowhere to drop support for a key piece of software. My windows 7 setup is backward compatible to software back to Windows 95.
Google, on the other hand, drops third party support for anything that they have a market share strangle hold on. Mark my word on this. It started with exchange sync support for gmail, then google voice, it will not stop there.
I think everyone hopes that web devs will realize flash player is dead. This is wishful thinking. Just like I wish voice call and sms should be dead.
Fact is, there are still millions of websites that are still dependent on flash player. They are still essential to people who uses these websites. I really dont care if Google supports or not, my OP asked if anyone else is working on it.
I switched from iPhone to Android years ago because Steve Job's Apple is a bully in their vision of technology. I see google as going down the same path.
Google doesn't really make anything that blow people's mind. They make things that are cheap and are good enough. I can easily and happily switch. In fact, I already made up my mind to test out the Dell Venue 8 Pro with Win 8.1 since the holiday deals look pretty good.
Lastly, I think someone misunderstood the diff between 'objective' vs 'subjective'.