Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .
Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.
Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.
I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
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Click to collapse
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
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It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
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Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).
Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
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Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
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Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)
Related
In light of what I considered to be a couple of very disturbing developments, I think at this point, a dialogue/debate needs to be opened on what rights/copyrights a contributor has on the intellectual material he/she posts here.
Sakajati was abruptly censored when he suggested that future roms may be administered through a tool bar and not administered through this site.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3288089&postcount=10332
And the way that BeyondInvisible was driven off this site by the " takers " and not supported by this site. ( the people that stole his new pay/per icons and published them for free, should have been banned). http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=2798052#post2798052 because he dared suggest that it might be time for all the takers to pony up.
When your work becomes widely successful ala; olinex, jockyw, sakajati, MobileMatt, JCKOTZE, Schap, in the kaiser forums, at what point does toiling around in poverty while you work hard for others for free, become less attractive than selling your work?
Who now owns your work , you, XDA, is it copyrighted? When you decide to take it private what ownership rights does XDA retain?
If you request that XDA remove your work, can they leave an archive of it?
I love this site it is the greatest resource on the net for PDA's but I think these subjects could use a good going over by the Mods and the membership.
Dennis
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM... ask any Mod, we all get the emails. The action I took (editing the toolbar links) is the most benign available to Moderators. I could have closed the thread, and moved it to a Mod-only section while the investigation/discussion took place. Instead, I opted to merely edit out the download links.
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
Now while a decision has not yet been made, I can confidently say that if SJ had promoted his toolbar as a tool to help all users of his ROMs get the latest "breaking" new on development, and NOT required it in order to obtain the password required for flashing, then we [most likely] would have allowed the toolbar to stay linked on XDA.
I think part of the problem here is that many seem to think that they are entitled to what the chefs produce for nothing. The hours spent porting and testing should count for something but for many it is just expected. I for one have no problem contributing what I can when I'm able. It is too bad that more don't do this.
Kirby
Intellectual property laws protect the inventor/creator rights of ownership to their intellectual property in cyber media. So there is no fear but a concern for any coder that his or her work marketing could be abused or it could be stolen. That is the risk one takes without his or her choice when they share their creations with others.
I also read XDA rules, and it clearly states that soliciting anything for money is prohibited. many cooks are on the border line of asking for money rather encouraging donation for sharing the fruit of their work with others. I do not have a problem with that and believe the majority here share my sentiment. I have a problem however with someone begging for donation without any substantiating efforts, invention or creation to merit the donation solicitation. That being said, I believe SJ was a true gentleman in all of his posts and never infringed on callus donation request; having a tool bar that he feels if XDA was out ( and it was out few times in the past month) as an optional site but not alternative support site that can be accessed where members can help each other is not a bad idea.
We seem to forget sometimes that XDA site was created to help one developer another achieve excellence in the field of e-communication.
so again, I have no problem with SJ promoting his tool bar as long as it is not used to ransom donation for solving issues and i am sure like I said earlier, this is NOT SJ's intention.
NotATreoFan said:
Removing SJ's toolbar was NOT censorship, regardless of how you're trying to spin it. We received several complaints from users who don't feel comfortable being required to install a toolbar just to use their favorite ROM...
There is no justification for requiring users to install a toolbar into Internet Explorer (or any other browser in the Windows environment) just so they can have access to a Chef's ROMs.
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That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
JimmyMcGee said:
Your opinion is respected. But the appearance was that he WAS requiring people to use the Toolbar to get the Password for the ROM.
Sakajati can do what ever he wants with his ROM, if he chooses to require the Toolbar, that's his choice. If XDA, the people who maintain and provide some presence for his ROM here say that's not in the spirit of the community, then he can release the ROMs on his website soley.
Basically you have to follow certain rules to post your stuff on SourceForge, so think of at as the same thing.
You seem to be the only one with a problem. sakajati is a great guy and is being cooperative in the investigation.
There is written law and common law. This falls more into to "Common Law" area, which is why I said it was a Grey area.
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I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
denco7 said:
That was one of my major points, there " was " no requirement . because there " was no rom ". You struck preemptively to something that had not happened yet, because it might happen in the future. You squashed his right to promote a private project , as many many people do here, because a few ungrateful people complained that in the future they might have to obtain the rom it SJ's way.
Had he stated that the next rom would be available only by joining his website, would you have shut him down?
My question is, at what point does a chef have the right to take his work private, and how , without any interference from this site.
Believe me, I am not trying to "spin " anything against anyone, I have a great deal of respect for you and all you have done for this forum ( we miss your input in the Kaiser world ) I just thought that it was a heavy handed response ( and yes censorship ) to something that hadn't even happened yet.
A simple PM could have alieviated the situation for the time being, while the Mods figured it out. Not a head on erase everything, assault SJ's right to promote his work and wares.
And I would say again, that the integrity of this site depends on people to share openly and honestly without fear of unjustified reprisal, SJ has said that he will not for the time being, take any new roms private. I think that is enough for all his links to be restored. If not, what other definitions of censorship do you have ?
I brought this over from the Hyperdragon thread to here, to discuss.
I just want everyone to know, this has more to do with the big picture than it has to do with sakajati. This has nothing to do with NATF or with jimmy and I am probably not the only one who has a problem with the way it was handled. I am just the one with the big mouth. And we all know that sakajati would never say a word or give anything less than his full cooperation.
I just want someone to tell me not just for SJ, but for the good of the whole community and as a precedent for future complaints of this type, why SJ couldn't have been shot a PM asking what his intentions were, and if they approached a grey area, he could have been informed and he would have cooperated. End of any problem. It is not like there was any urgency, as I said before, there was no requirement because there was no rom.
And if people did over react then it is good for everyone to get a dialogue started. That is what this site is all about.
Thanks guys for doing a great job !
Click to expand...
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My Friend read this...
sakajati said:
Just uploaded the cab to download center. It will add [Slide down for call functions] feature.
*** Please all of you install my toolbar [mod edit: link removed], this is the tool that will keep you updated and you will receive alert/message via the toolbar for news and announcements regularly from me. If you're using HyperDragon ROMs, you have to install it since the next rom release will be password protected and you'll get the password only via this toolbar . No adware, spyware, crapware, underware, read the Toolbar Privacy [mod edit: link removed]for details.***
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Read the Green Parts. The general consensus is IF sakajati REQUIRES people to use the Toolbar to use his ROMs, he is no longer contributing to the XDA ROM Community.
sakajati is ALLOWED and not censored to require this if he so chooses. However the ramifications are, that he would no longer be allowed to advertise his ROM here.
The "common law" rule is, if you post a ROM on XDA, you are contributing to the community and the ROM shall have NO STRINGS attached. No requirement to Give Money, no requirement to have a toolbar installed.
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
But as NATF has said, no final desicsion has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
JimmyMcGee said:
If sakajati wishes to offer his toolbar as a way to stay in "constant contact" with him, then I don't see a problem. But the release of the ROM shall not be contingent on the toolbar. At least not while it is advertised on XDA.
But as NATF has said, no final decision has been made, I only type this reply to give full disclosure, to show that our intentions are not to censor.
Thanks.
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Since this has all been put to rest, I just have some final thoughts and then I'll shut up.
It was never about XDA's/Mod's disapproval as to what he intended to do, you all are entrusted with the success and smooth running of this site and have every right to administer this site as you see fit, (as I have every right to question why ) And it was not really about SJ, he was just the vehicle of my overall concern about creative people leaving this site because of real and perceived ( do it our way or get out ) disagreements.
I guess I just wanted to know, if people decided to take their projects private,such as a new rom, would they still be welcome here to support older projects or develop new projects here ( that fell within XDA guildlines ) and while supporting their projects, could they in a subtle non-commercial way, direct people to private/financially enhancing projects.
And of course I still object to the way it was handled, that sort of, " we are taking it all down until we decide " way of doing it, is something that happens to noobs that don't know any better. Not to someone who has done as much for, and contributed so much to the Kaiser community as sakajati has done.
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Oh yeah ........one more thing
And P.S. lets not get into calling ROMs Intellectual Property, because honestly, ROMs are Microsoft's I.P. All chefs do is tweak, improve and skin ROMs. And I don't mean to take anything away from chefs awesome work by saying that. So saying sakajati's ROM is his I.P. is like saying you taking you Toyota Celica, painting it Pink with Green Racing strips and boring out the engine, makes that car your I.P.
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Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
denco7 said:
The Mods always preach, " if you have a dispute with another member, take it to PM, " Unfortunately this great advise wasn't followed, and I am glad that SJ was not offended by this and did not pack up his toys and go home ( like unfortunately other members have done )
And I am sorry if " I " have offended anyone, that was not my intention. I love this site and think that discussions like this benefit the longevity of this site. I am glad everything has been resolved and I will shut up and go away now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not an issue of personal disagreement, it is a violation of our rules of operation. When we see questionable activity, we will always take the action of stopping the activity, contacting the OP, and trying to resolve it quickly. I am sure SJ understands this as well as anyone here that it was nothing personal, and simply just S.O.P. around here. It's a lot easier to take down a problem for a couple days, and then let it back up with an apology than it is to remove it after we've debated.
As for you question about prior contributions, of course anyone is welcome to support anything that they have and continue to offer that is in compliance with our rules here. Nothing even stops a user from selling some stuff, and giving others away. It's just that they can't post the stuff they're selling here, just the donation ware.
IP
I have just a couple points. The Phoenix team has a separate website we use for tracking bugs and other discussion so we don't clutter up this site. However our intent is to foster creativity, open communication and cooperation among users and chefs which we hope results in better products for the users of this site. So don't always think a private website like ours or SJ's is a bad thing.
However, I would like to point out what was only stated one time in the thread--the guts of these roms are the ip of microsoft and htc. Now as chef's we find other bits and pieces that are added--and these are the ip of their creators. Sometimes we contribute our own ip--like skins, icons and very specific know how to get the roms to help our devices perform at peak efficiency. But anyone who would try to take a rom private and sell it, would have some major issues without first getting license to do so from MS, HTC and those other people who own the other intellectual property.
There are many examples of apps that were developed by talented people here that have gone commercial. Those apps are still discussed and linked to here because they all have trial periods. There is nothing wrong with commercializing your own ip..The wrong comes when you commercialize ip that you don't own or haven't properly license.
So let's continue a great tradition of creativity. I believe that this site is the primary reason that HTC and microsoft keep trying to make a better operating system. This site is where many ideas come from. This site gives the OS life beyond the normal experience.
denco7 said:
(snip)
Oh yeah ........one more thing
Tell that to Chip Foose and Orange County Choppers. They take other people's parts, design and tweak and create masterpieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your telling me a Foose Design isn't intellectual property?
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Pfft Those Posers
some confused thinking here -
A cook can ask for a contribution for his time but there is no way he can claim that a cooked rom is his IPR because it's belongs to someone else start with - no licence to modify has been granted!
Now creating programs from scratch, that's a different issue and how they want to deal with payment is upto them.
my theory is whoever created the forum and then got ppl to volounter to mantain it
ITS THERE FORUM
Its really up to them what they want to do
hey, i recently joined this page on facebook (i've withheld the name of the page as to not seem like i'm here to promote it or such, not that it requires promotion with its 2 million members) and a many of us including the owner of the page there are a free-thinking bunch. The problem is that whenever some user finds something we say offensive, we get reported and are blocked from posting for 10-12 hours, sometimes entire days...
The gracious admin there took it upon himself to finance an entirely new site as a refuge for us. But most of lack the technical know-how of getting a site up and running. We have a few volunteers ready to devote their time and skills to help in the site's construction.
The owner suggested a forum-esque feel to the site rather than something like facebook itself and when anyone mentions forum the only thing my mind thinks is XDA!! This site is the epitome of what a forum should be about!!
So i was hoping if anyone could give me some sort of information as to what the site is based on (HTML, PHP, etc)? what type security measures should we be looking at? we read something about a using social networking engines to enable features like instant messaging...
i was hoping if someone could point me (and by relation, us) in the right direction.
Any help would be much appreciated.
psychocyst said:
hey, i recently joined this page on facebook (i've withheld the name of the page as to not seem like i'm here to promote it or such, not that it requires promotion with its 2 million members) and a many of us including the owner of the page there are a free-thinking bunch. The problem is that whenever some user finds something we say offensive, we get reported and are blocked from posting for 10-12 hours, sometimes entire days...
The gracious admin there took it upon himself to finance an entirely new site as a refuge for us. But most of lack the technical know-how of getting a site up and running. We have a few volunteers ready to devote their time and skills to help in the site's construction.
The owner suggested a forum-esque feel to the site rather than something like facebook itself and when anyone mentions forum the only thing my mind thinks is XDA!! This site is the epitome of what a forum should be about!!
So i was hoping if anyone could give me some sort of information as to what the site is based on (HTML, PHP, etc)? what type security measures should we be looking at? we read something about a using social networking engines to enable features like instant messaging...
i was hoping if someone could point me (and by relation, us) in the right direction.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This site is running on vBulletin 3.8.6 which is commercial software. There are free bulletin boards out there. As for security, this is a massive topic that I don't think anyone can summarise. Obvious things like good password policies (long and random, never re-used, etc) and keeping all software patched up to date are key. Other than that it all depends on the implementation. Also, there are penetration testing tools that you can find off the internet to test your site.
Dave
thanks a million Dave. i'll look into it and pass the message on to our group.
psychocyst said:
thanks a million Dave. i'll look into it and pass the message on to our group.
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What Dave said, but beware that your site is only as secure as the system it runs on.
Your system can be the most secure in the world, with lovely nice PHP code, the latest patched vBulletin install, and I might still get into it...
If you are using shared web hosting, and some peon is using an out of date wordpress install, they can likely wreak a fair bit of havock on a poorly setup server.
Unfortunately most shared hosting is poorly setup. If you have 2 million members, you WILL need dedicated server space. I would also suggest you need to seriously consider the undertaking here - 2 million people is A LOT, and I don't know how many simultaneous users you are talking about, but it sounds a big target...
You will need a fairly powerful server from the sounds of it. I would suggest looking at the available forum systems, installing them (free ones), or trying out the demos.
I assist in the running of a number of sites, from single figure numbers of visitors per day, through to hundreds of thousands/millions per day... The requirements for these differ HUGELY. While something free like SMF might be good for a site with 200 folk, it's not likely a good idea on a site with 100,000 visitors per day posting...
Consider backup strategies too, for WHEN the worst happens - not if... Where will you store backups? How will you secure them?
Finally, remember to look to the future. phpBB is pretty poor, I suggest avoiding it. But what will you move to next? Make sure you pick a system that ain't gonna die tomorrow... If it does, you are stuck without security updates, and you might find it hard to migrate to another one... Be sure to go with a system that has good support to migrate further if/when the time comes...
woah!! ok, this was a big help...although we have close to 2 million people signed on, only about 30 - 40% of those are regularly active and perhaps 100 or so who're almost always there...
i saw BBCode implementation at linux mint forums and found it a total fail compared to XDA...i had completely forgotten about the back-up portion...
knew i could count on XDA for a lil' help...God i love this site!!
psychocyst said:
woah!! ok, this was a big help...although we have close to 2 million people signed on, only about 30 - 40% of those are regularly active and perhaps 100 or so who're almost always there...
i saw BBCode implementation at linux mint forums and found it a total fail compared to XDA...i had completely forgotten about the back-up portion...
knew i could count on XDA for a lil' help...God i love this site!!
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Click to collapse
Haha no worries.
From those figures I would size the site based on coping with 5000 simultaneous users minimum. I doubt you will get as much tbh, as many people hit the homepage and look at the latest, then go to the next site they visit.
If you can afford, aim to cope with 10k+ simultaneous, to cover you for if you get a bout of publicity...
I'd reckon on a well-run server you would be OK with 8 to 16 GB of RAM, and a few hundred gigabytes of hdd. Bandwidth is hard to gauge without info on the site and content...
But I think it could be run for under $400 per month, and that is a very high estimate to cover things like multiple backup locations.
You will instantly ruin your site reputation if you need to use backups and they don't work...
If nobody is experienced in server management, hire someone to do it. These things are often best left to the experts where you are unsure... It will likely pay for itself in their expertise at least 3 times a month (or at least that's how often some of my clients proclaim I saved their "lives" )
I just wanted to vent off about a trend that is starting to p*** me off greatly.
It is these so called 'Devs' that are 'cooking' ROM's and claiming to be Developers, then expect some form of payment for their 'work'.
Now before I get flamed, I am not talking about the recognised Developers on here who do some fantastic, complex work. I am quite willing and often do, donate as a token of my appreciation for their work and to help cover development costs.
I am talking the 'chancers' who take either a Stock ROM or AOSP (or indeed, another Dev's ROM), theme it a bit, add in some fixes and apps from other developers, then release it as a fantastically named ROM and ask numerous times in the first post for a donation.
This then leads to a thread full of posts asking the 'Dev' for fixes, who usually reply something like, "I'll look into it ", then wait for a real developer to make a fix elsewhere, and then include it in their ROM, inferring that they have fixed it.
I should state here that the tipping point for me today was a cooked ROM I saw, where the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon, a 'wish list' for f*** sake.
I know the Mods on this site have more than enough work on their hands, but couldn't we have a sort of two-tier system, whereby the submitted work could be scrutinized and a decision taken as to whether it has been 'cooked' or 'developed'. Then the person submitting could be advised as to whether they can call themselves a 'Chef' or a 'Dev'. Also some advice could be given about donations.........
lease report any abuse of the donation rules to us so we can deal with it appropriately.
Thankyou for raising some very valid points as well. Unfortunately though it's simply not viable to evaluate all releases.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face......
Problem is you cant make it so only Recognized Devs can release ROMs either because there are so many good devs that are not recognized
Of course you are both correct. It would likely discourage people from trying to create ROM's and these guys (whether they cook or code) deserve all the plaudits they receive.
I should take a deep breath before sounding off .
That's what happens when you have to work over the holidays!
killall said:
...the guy is not asking for donations per se, but has a 'wish list' on Amazon
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Click to collapse
I saw that too. I think the only reason I didn't report it was because I was so flabbergasted! (Ask the mods, I'm not shy when it comes to reporting stuff )
The thing that really got me was that it was mostly stuff around the $40-$60 range, some more! If it were things like USB cables and screen protectors that were only a few quid a go then I could accept it, but not the stuff he was asking for.
Edit: Found it and reported it. Let the mods decide.
I never ask, in fact I'm dead against it. If I do something its for my phone. Of course I will share it, but I did it for me. A few people have asked so now I include a charity link in my work. That way I don't know who donates and I feel no obligation to them to do more, or edit it to there wants, also I might be doing some good in the world. I feel this is the way to go. I rarely donate for fear of abuse of the system. And yeah, I recently saw a guy post a unworking ics port. Let other guys in the forum fix then ask for donations.
Sent from my GT-S5830 using xda premium
We all know one of the biggest gripes about Windows Phone is the lack of a few key apps. I know that I frequently contact a few companies to let them know that I am looking forward to a Windows Phone version of their existing apps and I’m sure others do as well. So companies get a smattering of requests from some users here and there.
Just wondering if perhaps we focus on one or a few particular apps at a time with many people emailing, tweeting, comments on Facebook etc in a sustained way to let them see that there is actual interest from a large number of users in the Windows Phone community. Who knows, maybe if there is enough noise, some of them will rethink their stand.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but seemed like good place to see what people think.
Thoughts?
Bad idea. Software business works by different way. No one cares about your tweets or fb posts or forum noise - it's just a children game.
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
willp2 said:
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
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Click to collapse
Other than XDA, if you also post this on WPCentral forum, you will get much much much better and enthusiastic response for such requests. There is a list of app-requests somwhere in this forum too, if you wanted a place to pick apps-in-demand from.
I'm afraid you are mistaken. Companies are "listening" their marketing stuff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Neither facebook posts nor tweets can change company budget, marketing strategy or development roadmap. In fact, the most companies are controlled by the intelligent and informed people, so you may be sure they already knew about WP7 platform
P.S. Let me guess: you've never worked in software industry, don't you?
Thanks for the comments on WPCentral forum, good point. More regular users over there.
sensboston - You made my point exactly. Companies are listening to marketing staff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Those people, especially the marketing types pay attention to what the outside world is saying. If they see noise about a particular topic, it gets their attention.
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
Not that it matters or even relevant to what I'm talking about here, but I've been in the software industry for over 20 years.
willp2 said:
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
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Click to collapse
It's a completely different case. Yes, I agree - huge noise/rumors about critical bug in popular app/software can push (some) companies to force fix or workaround immediately (good example is a Nokia representatives, who's - I believe - are monitoring XDA forums daily)
But porting app to the different platform (especially to WP7!) is very complicated. Most primary titles are written on C++ and uses native code/API calls. "Porting" C++ code to C#/Silverlight isn't just "porting"; it's much more close to complete rewrite. Also WP7 platform support means an additional tier of Q&A and etc. and so on (if you are really worked more than 20 years in industry you can easily extend these requirements).
100 or even 1000 facebook posts and forum requests can't show you a real app demand but statistics can. Unfortunately WP7 market share currently is too small (at the end of 2011 it was about 2%).
I thought there was a similar thread already, but if not then perhaps we can do that. I heard a company saying, they'll port it to windows phone if they enough demands.
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
willp2 said:
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
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Click to collapse
I am not sure either but I think I have seen a similar thread, Anyway, if that cannot be found.
BTW it was I think Draw Something which said about the enough demand.
Maybe try crowd funding
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
rbrunner7 said:
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use, let alone donate to some fund for the possibility of an app being ported.
Standard contractor rates for a software engineer are about $100 to $150 per hour. Salaried devs make less, but the cost is close to the same for companies because of benefits packages. So, 1 day of dev time for 1 developer is going to cost around $1000. My guess is a crowd fund would not even reach $100. But even if $10000 were collected, that would only cover a team of 5 for 2 days. And, 5 days for 20 business days would cost $100000. And this is is exactly why companies have been slow to bring apps over. It's expensive.
The other aspect is that although the syntax is similar in C#, Java, and C++; there are enough differences to make it less than a simple task to just switch over. Most devs with experience have been doing either C# or Java or C++. Most have not been doing all 3. This means paying money and taking time to get the existing devs trained or hire additional devs and transfering domain knowledge to them. Both have costs. (Note: iPhone is Objective C, which is different, but also has similarities. Same issues though)
Many companies just don't have the resources to spend when the return on investment is not short term. Long term as more consumers buy Windows Phones, it will be more economically viable for companies to invest in porting the applications.
JVH3 said:
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He-he... Most users on the site are too lazy, greedy and irresponsible not even for donation but just for vote and review published here on XDA apps And some are so ungrateful that they forget just to say "Thanks"... Don't tell me about donations: I've collected money for Cotulla, for the Samsung's first freedom ROM for WP7... From hundreds of Focus owners here only 13 or 14 people are donated.
As for your arguments: it's 100% true for an adult professionals but of course not for 12-14 years old teens who "has over 20 years of software industry experience"
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
rbrunner7 said:
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
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Click to collapse
Not to be discouraging, but it is pretty unlikely to get $1000 in donation from users here. It you look at the weather city editor that I wrote (link to thread in signature) for Windows Mobile, I got maybe close to $500 in donations from the time I created it through the entire time I worked on it, supported it, and enhanced it. I created it because I needed it and turned it into more than I needed so others could easily use it. The donations came from maybe 20 to 30 users. It was downloaded by well over 10000 users.
If looking for money as the reward, you are much better off paying Microsoft the $100 and putting the app on the marketplace and charging a dollar or making it be ad supported.
You'll still get respect for making cool things and posting them here, but it's not going to make you rich. It's a great place to learn and get some experience making apps though. Lots of people are willing to help if you get stuck on something.
It's a nice thought but, in reality it wont work
I thought about doing this too...
If you got everyone to attempt to do it, it might but, if you only get 50 people to do it(and that would be a lot in a fourm to request something they might not be interested in) that is a little bit compared to their marketplace with iOS or Android.
I personally really want Cut the Rope but, after posting a handfull of times on their facebook page and even emailing customer service, no luck
Hello,
I just want to know since there was a set of prizes worth $4 million that I think was being sponsored by Samsung how much does XT a development make every year? Obviously you are under no obligation to tell me since it's probably a private firm or maybe ohm by a larger firm. I only ask because most of the money this page because the developers store their hard earned software here and the forms that relate to them and they publish the results of their builds to these forums.
If I don't have quite right please still free to correct me. Please send a no circumstances at defensively and trying to lose your cool. We live in the capitalistic country thank God at least for now until socialism tries to take over. Or continues to try to take over.
Great Darlas I just wondered if any of the money was shared with the developers make the site possible. Are any or all of the developers actually paid by the proceeds from the site? Is any type of compensation whatsoever to the developers for their hard work that make some money that is generated by ADS that the owners of the site profit from? With just for now a set of $4 million in prizes I would think that the amount of money that the site generates is astronomical. By the way where do I sign up for these prizes see in all the videos?
If the developers are not making any money from this, G is the way that they can be made possible?
This is a perfect site for making money because of all the ads in the fact that people come here almost every day for a new set of operating systems to put on the phone, and that the source code from one phone can be used for many phones in general, well at least 60 to 80% or more. Feel free to correct my figures.
Go
Btw your friends does not work very well with voice dictation
Especially with the program called Swype. Example if I
say period it's supposed to put a dot, if I say question mark it should put a?
I wouldn't complain except that you need your text boxes are extremely hard because we're you touch is not where the cursor goes. This makes editing impossible especially at the end of the line. As such ask for your patience because I'm highly disabled list nerve damage and it's very difficult to work your forums. It's not just with this keyboard software it is with others as well. Could you try to fix us as soon as possible
heartspeace said:
Hello,
I just want to know since there was a set of prizes worth $4 million that I think was being sponsored by Samsung how much does XT a development make every year? Obviously you are under no obligation to tell me since it's probably a private firm or maybe ohm by a larger firm. I only ask because most of the money this page because the developers store their hard earned software here and the forms that relate to them and they publish the results of their builds to these forums.
If I don't have quite right please still free to correct me. Please send a no circumstances at defensively and trying to lose your cool. We live in the capitalistic country thank God at least for now until socialism tries to take over. Or continues to try to take over.
Great Darlas I just wondered if any of the money was shared with the developers make the site possible. Are any or all of the developers actually paid by the proceeds from the site? Is any type of compensation whatsoever to the developers for their hard work that make some money that is generated by ADS that the owners of the site profit from? With just for now a set of $4 million in prizes I would think that the amount of money that the site generates is astronomical. By the way where do I sign up for these prizes see in all the videos?
If the developers are not making any money from this, G is the way that they can be made possible?
This is a perfect site for making money because of all the ads in the fact that people come here almost every day for a new set of operating systems to put on the phone, and that the source code from one phone can be used for many phones in general, well at least 60 to 80% or more. Feel free to correct my figures.
Go
Btw your friends does not work very well with voice dictation
Especially with the program called Swype. Example if I
say period it's supposed to put a dot, if I say question mark it should put a?
I wouldn't complain except that you need your text boxes are extremely hard because we're you touch is not where the cursor goes. This makes editing impossible especially at the end of the line. As such ask for your patience because I'm highly disabled list nerve damage and it's very difficult to work your forums. It's not just with this keyboard software it is with others as well. Could you try to fix us as soon as possible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you have failed to understand exactly WHY this site exists. Tip, it is not for the money....
mf2112 said:
I think you have failed to understand exactly WHY this site exists. Tip, it is not for the money....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do understand why this site exists period and I wouldn't be surprised that you actually make a lot of money orange that you barely break even . I am just curious to to know whether you make a lot of money are you barely breakeven. I only ask us because there was a set of $4 million in prizes being given away . Maybe that was just to third parties companies generosity. Does it hurt at all to ask these questions? /Can /will you answer them?
Also can you answer how I can sign up for the prizes?
heartspeace said:
I do understand why this site exists period and I wouldn't be surprised that you actually make a lot of money orange that you barely break even . I am just curious to to know whether you make a lot of money are you barely breakeven. I only ask us because there was a set of $4 million in prizes being given away . Maybe that was just to third parties companies generosity. Does it hurt at all to ask these questions? /Can /will you answer them?
Also can you answer how I can sign up for the prizes?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Never heard about the prize so I am not sure. It doesn't hurt to ask although I am not sure this is the proper forum for it, and I am not sure why you felt the need to inject a political message into it, that tends to be frowned upon here as the site is about mobile phones and mobile phones aren't political.
As for your other questions, you might PM svetius. You certainly won't get an answer about finances posted back on a public thread, and frankly I doubt you will get an answer to it at all since you don't need to know it. I apologize if that seems rude, but this is a business like any other and is under no obligation or duty to show anybody anything with regards to finances except the owners.
mf2112 said:
Never heard about the prize so I am not sure. It doesn't hurt to ask although I am not sure this is the proper forum for it, and I am not sure why you felt the need to inject a political message into it, that tends to be frowned upon here as the site is about mobile phones and mobile phones aren't political.
As for your other questions, you might PM svetius. You certainly won't get an answer about finances posted back on a public thread, and frankly I doubt you will get an answer to it at all since you don't need to know it. I apologize if that seems rude, but this is a business like any other and is under no obligation or duty to show anybody anything with regards to finances except the owners.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Those are the only two questions I'm really asking. Is this a for profit business? And that's a subquestion of that I wondered if the developers work for this business or if they work as a volunteer project? I know that if this is a for profit business it would not exist except for the developers putting up their ROMs and other support here for the many users. I think it would be good if it is a for-profit business Khala that perhaps the business gives some support monetarily to the developers. Is there is a 4 1/2 million dollar set of prizes as it said in the videos, I would love to be signed up for that and I wonder where I can?
I just think sites that are built upon the developers backs or other people's efforts should give back to those people more then just hosting in their software if and only if the company is profitable. On this page alone I see there are three ads. The other side is if this is a business and it needs help because it's not profitable and we can help it then maybe we can give donations? As this is a very valuable resource it to be nice to know what condition it send financially so it
doesn't fail to disappear like so many thousands of other business over the last few years.
HP
mf2112 said:
I think you have failed to understand exactly WHY this site exists. Tip, it is not for the money....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree.
I agree too
Sent from my MT11i using xda premium
The prizes in that competition are provided entirely by Samsung.
If it's the same competition I think you are referring to, you would need to publish an app on Samsung's store, and the most popular apps on a given date win...
Regarding developers, we have introduced a program recently to give a small number of developers phones and tablets to develop with. This is still a relatively small program, but I'm sure with time it will expand a bit, in a controlled manner
heartspeace said:
Hello,
I just want to know since there was a set of prizes worth $4 million that I think was being sponsored by Samsung how much does XT a development make every year? Obviously you are under no obligation to tell me since it's probably a private firm or maybe ohm by a larger firm. I only ask because most of the money this page because the developers store their hard earned software here and the forms that relate to them and they publish the results of their builds to these forums.
If I don't have quite right please still free to correct me. Please send a no circumstances at defensively and trying to lose your cool. We live in the capitalistic country thank God at least for now until socialism tries to take over. Or continues to try to take over.
Great Darlas I just wondered if any of the money was shared with the developers make the site possible. Are any or all of the developers actually paid by the proceeds from the site? Is any type of compensation whatsoever to the developers for their hard work that make some money that is generated by ADS that the owners of the site profit from? With just for now a set of $4 million in prizes I would think that the amount of money that the site generates is astronomical. By the way where do I sign up for these prizes see in all the videos?
If the developers are not making any money from this, G is the way that they can be made possible?
This is a perfect site for making money because of all the ads in the fact that people come here almost every day for a new set of operating systems to put on the phone, and that the source code from one phone can be used for many phones in general, well at least 60 to 80% or more. Feel free to correct my figures.
Go
Btw your friends does not work very well with voice dictation
Especially with the program called Swype. Example if I
say period it's supposed to put a dot, if I say question mark it should put a?
I wouldn't complain except that you need your text boxes are extremely hard because we're you touch is not where the cursor goes. This makes editing impossible especially at the end of the line. As such ask for your patience because I'm highly disabled list nerve damage and it's very difficult to work your forums. It's not just with this keyboard software it is with others as well. Could you try to fix us as soon as possible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BTW for typing via swype, have you considered trying the XDA app or Tapatalk? Much easier to use, as it's a native android app...
For the punctuation, I think that is a restriction of the voice to text software used within Swype, which I think is provided by Nuance.
I suggest you start typing your posts like everyone else if possible. Your voice dictated ones are horrible. They remind me of the kind of garbled messages spammers send or the garbage that results when lazy spammers scrap content and put it through an article spinner. Either that or get some decent voice dictation software.
BretonGirl said:
I suggest you start typing your posts like everyone else if possible. Your voice dictated ones are horrible. They remind me of the kind of garbled messages spammers send or the garbage that results when lazy spammers scrap content and put it through an article spinner. Either that or get some decent voice dictation software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm curious were you in a bad mood when you posted that, or were you just lacking enough charity to have any responsible foresight?
I use voice dictation because I had a bad operation which left me with severe nerve damage and muscle damage and muscle atrophy throughout my upper body; I am in moderate to severe pain about 24 hours a day even while undergoing pain management treatment. I used to run a worldwide software development organization with world-class developers for governmental programs. Forgive me if voice dictation is being my arms for now, and most likely rest my life.
But please if you can recommend voice dictation software better than Nuance on Android please do tell me about it. Google is still a large leap behind. I do not know of any others, do you? Perhaps this is a calling for you to write one to help many without the ability to type. What languages do you know? How proficient are you at programing? What is your background and education? I'm sure I can touch base with some of my old research buddies in the government who would love your donated time for such a project, if you have any programming skills or development background or even research background in linguistics, speech algorithms, or other related technologies.
hp
I suspect she is a teenager. There are quite a few here.
I don't know of any other voice dictation software, sorry. Never had a good opportunity to use it so I never investigated any of the available packages out there personally beyond a guick google once. Actually your posts were not any worse than many of the ones I read by the teenagers here with their abbreviations. :-/