Develop Bugs

Future Windows Phone 7 Updates

I was shocked to read this, but it is still up to the carrier to decide whether or not they want to release a windows phone 7 update according to this article.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3982/windows-phone-7-review/26
"Microsoft physically hosts the update, however it is the carrier’s call whether or not to release it to customers Given the ban on UI customizations and the unified hardware support, there should be no technical reason for a carrier to prevent an update from going out. The fact that Microsoft will deliver, with every update, a list of how the carrier’s own validation tests will run should guarantee that any failure to push out said update would be negligence on the carrier’s part. Microsoft went on to say that while it’s possible for a carrier to prevent a Windows Phone update from going out, it doesn’t believe it’s a likely scenario. While Microsoft didn’t say it explicitly, the implication is that Windows Phone won’t have the update issues that have plagued certain Android customers"
The situation is still better than what we get with Android, but the only thing I want my carrier in charge of us my actual wireless service.
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why would carriers deny an update? they are not creating it so they will approve it as long as it doesn't cripples their hardware...
the reason why they don't bother with android or windows mobile is because they need to create that update themselves...re-do the skin etc which costs $$$ so they are ultra slow regarding those OS...
with microsoft doing all the hardwork, carriers need to check whether the update is good for their device or not...
ps - this is why, everyone should buy an unlocked device..

powersquad said:
why would carried deny an update? they are not creating it so they will approve it as long as it doesn't cripples their hardware...
the reason why they don't bother with android or windows mobile is because they need to create that update themselves...re-do the skin etc which costs $$$ so they are ultra slow regarding those OS...
with microsoft doing all the hardwork, carriers need to check whether the update is good for their device or not...
ps - this is why, everyone should buy an unlocked device..
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They would deny it so that to get new features you have to buy a new phone...hmmm not liking this one bit..would sprint do suck a thing?

havox22 said:
They would deny it so that to get new features you have to buy a new phone...hmmm not liking this one bit..would sprint do suck a thing?
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if that happens then microsoft will tell the carriers to get lost...

powersquad said:
if that happens then microsoft will tell the carriers to get lost...
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I hoping the carriers can only stop people from getting it over the air, but not through zune

Quick note - this wasn't a very clear answer in several cases. According to several sources, including Jason Dunn's site, MS will push the OS updates, not the carriers. The carriers will have the option to roll up their updates into the WP updates so there's a common distribution method. Everything I've read recently strongly implies that the carriers will not be in charge of releasing updates. Hope that gives people some hope that we'll get updates in a timely fashion as defined by MS, not the carriers (who have a horrible track record of providing OS updates).

According to Paul Therrott's conversation with MS, Carriers could hold up one and only one update. Not sure why'd they want too, but who knows.....time will tell.

From a recent interview done on Engadget on The Engadget Show, it has been said by Microsoft that they will push updates. Only the user is able to decide whether or not to update.

havox22 said:
I hoping the carriers can only stop people from getting it over the air, but not through zune
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Carriers have no say over updates through zune since it isn't using their network.

[OFFICIAL] Microsoft Post about NoDo, Phone Updates ect.

http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...1/03/10/phone-updates-process-and-timing.aspx
At least somebody has been hired to start saying something

There’s one more thing I want to clear up. I’ve seen a lot of speculation on blogs and forums lately about whether carriers can “block” an update. We work closely with carriers to test and schedule updates. They may ask us for a specific date to start an update. They may ask for updates to be bundled together. But you should ultimately receive all the updates we send out.
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Damn you Carriers!
This short pause should in no way impact the timing of future updates, including the one announced recently at Mobile World Congress featuring multitasking, a Twitter feature, and a new HTML 5-friendly version of Internet Explorer Mobile.
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I sure hope so...
This is just what I expected, But I don't think it can penetrate the people's stupidity. Hopefully this can SHUT some of the people UP.

At least someone at Microsoft said something about the updates, even though it doesn't say a whole lot.
Lets hope they become a bit more vocal about things, instead of relying on rumors to become news.

His post was full of words, but didn't really tell us anything at all. I think he's probably a politician at heart.

1. they test updates at ms
2. carriers also test the updates, some carriers take longer than others
3. carriers can request a certain date updates will be allowed. e.g ATT can send an update a week earlier than Verizon (you will get your update but carrier decides when)
4. updates can sometimes include firmware from specific phone manufactures
5. updates are targetted to specific phones. just because LG phones got an update does not mean HTC phones will get an update. see point (2)
6. the snafu about the last update made them pause to make sure this update goes well.
7. The next update is copy and paste, improved market search and other improvements
what do you mean he didn't say anything?

Wow, I'll be honest, I'm both speechless, and pretty much satisfied.
This is exactly what they should have done. Wow. I'm seriously blown away that Microsoft actually did this. Very impressive.
Good enough for me.

i'm still not satisfied with these explanations. these excuses are to buy time and make microsoft look good. microsoft test update in lab > manufacture and chipmaker test their firmware > carrier test it on their network > users get update. they went thru at least 3 phases of testing and tell me none knows of the issue with samsung wp7? they were way behind schedule and have to rush the update so it wasn't properly test. NoGo was supposed to be out january. still NoShow.

akachay said:
i'm still not satisfied with these explanations. these excuses are to buy time and make microsoft look good. microsoft test update in lab > manufacture and chipmaker test their firmware > carrier test it on their network > users get update. they went thru at least 3 phases of testing and tell me none knows of the issue with samsung wp7? they were way behind schedule and have to rush the update so it wasn't properly test. NoGo was supposed to be out january. still NoShow.
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perhaps, but given your logic shouldn't the manufacturer (that being samsung) had picked it up when they were given the update and told MS about it before it hit a whole lot of samsung users? MS don't create the phones themselves (unlike Apple, which everyone seems to be comparing MS' update system to), so therefore the complexity of the updates in general are increased to a great magnitude with the additional layers that they need to help satisfy.

akachay said:
microsoft test(s) update in lab > manufacture(rs) and chipmaker(s) test their firmware > carrier(s) test it on their network(s) > users get update
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There's a step missing for a good test - between network testing and end users, a quick release to power user early adopters needs to happen.
These are people who ideally have the technical proficiency to help troubleshoot any issues encountered (in other words, they know how to file a bug report, and also how to follow troubleshooting instructions from MS).
Whiny *****es would of course be excluded.
MS used to have a system like this for their MSN software products (such as MSN messenger). I thought it worked really well as a participant, but then they ditched the program - IMHO they invited too many whiny non-technical people and just got sick of placating them.

I really don't think this addresses the issue. Tell me MS didn't know how this would work from the beginning?? If they did know, why did they advertise the system the way they did? They made frequent and aggressive updating as a main feature of WP7. Yet that "aggressive" updating is more like super timid updating.
Either MS didn't know what it was getting into, or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.

or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
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*poots left over smoke out of his arse.

MartyLK said:
Either MS didn't know what it was getting into, or they knew and are trying to blow smoke up our rears.
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I would bet money it's the former.
They probably had meetings, layed it all out on spreadsheets, powerpoint presentations, etc. Had engineers give reports. Marketing specialists chime in on what's needed to win. And they thought it would go smooth as butter.

Ok.. time to give a fack with this guy..

So, was there anything we didn't already know?

The fact that MS had to push a pre update update is amusing, & the update was for every phone not just Samsung. Obviously MS never tested the update process before the launch of WP7. The Samsung issues show that MS & its OEM partners don't communicate well with each other. A good example of this is SD card support, if MS doesn't want it why is it there & how did Samsung get away with putting it in? Is MS not in charge of WP7 & the user experience, which a buggy SD card will impact?

Now, that said, I think it's worse than I thought.
So they need to adjust WP7 OS to every device out there, and with approval from carrier?
So, that means.. that this is almost exactly like Android. Or at least seems like Android. They are going to release tons of phones, and then, forget our humble phones.
Really, do you guys think MS is going to worry with an outdated smartphone? That don't even sell in stores anymore?
Crap ;/

After reading some of the comments posted there, it is clear that folks do not understand that the difference between Apple updates and Microsoft updates is that Apple controls the entire chain from nuts and bolts to software. They are updating ONE piece of hardware.
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.

With this PR blog post having 100+ replies with more than 90% of them being not positive, and Paul Thurrot's "Still No Update" post (which I'm assuming is what pushed MS to respond) having 150+ replies, maybe they'll finally start to "get it".
But I doubt it...

pbratton said:
After reading some of the comments posted there, it is clear that folks do not understand that the difference between Apple updates and Microsoft updates is that Apple controls the entire chain from nuts and bolts to software. They are updating ONE piece of hardware.
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
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It seems you may not understand why the comparisons are valid. "Chassis 1" was suppose to be MS's answer to Apple so that they, like Apple, could update all phones at once.
Anything extra the OEMs add should be on them (ie. LG with DNLA) and MS should ONLY be responsible for updating the core OS. Acer, Asus, HP and Lenovo all update their own drivers while MS updates Windows. It should be the same exact process with WP7.
BTW, Apple is updating THREE pieces of hardware and many revisions of each. MS is updating ONE uniform OS AND they've been in the mobile OS business since 2003. They should have known how to run things by now.

pbratton said:
Microsoft is updating MANY DIFFERENT hardware types from many different manufacturers. Thus, 'issues' will occur.
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Also, it's not like MS has no experience here. They've rolled out updates to different hardware types before as part of the Zune updates that have happened occasionally (I think about twice a year, just like Xbox - autumn/spring) since launch.
So yeah, they have carriers in the mix now. That's really the only complexity added over the Zune updates that have been largely trouble-free.

You know what, this is exactly what microsoft needs to do with WP

one sided promise from microsoft (re:updates) is pure fail. all parties should be brought onboard and each held accountable
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-partners-with-oems-and-carriers-to-guarantee-android-upda/

Wow, I saw AT&T on the picture, I must relook at it.

It will never happen because all the OEM's and carriers involved seem to want Microsoft and WP7 to fail.

Look at the Zune hardware. My brother had a Zune since Day 1 and he got every update and new release from Microsoft, no problem. I don't think it's a Microsoft issue, I think it's a carrier issue.

Well, that announcement says Android phones will be supported for 18 months. It doesn't say updates will be instant, OEMs won't take weeks to develop ROMs and carriers won't take weeks "testing" them.

vangrieg said:
It doesn't say updates will be instant, OEMs won't take weeks to develop ROMs and carriers won't take weeks "testing" them.
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if you read the live update, it says:
"12:34PM New guidelines! Man, this is going to be huge. Google's laying out a timeline for how long it'll take a device to get updated once a new build is let loose, as well as how long it'll be updated beyond that."

Google and Apple are both more powerful and influential in the mobile space than Microsoft right now. I don't think Microsoft is really in the position to dictate anything to anyone right now.

And what exactly are these guidelines? Three days for a new ROM from HTC with a new Sense on it?
I mean, this is great news for Android, but there's nothing so far that says anything real about what the update experience will be.
I know it's trendy to bash MS, but WP7 has seen four updates already. And the last one was cumulative, by the way.

I don't know, I have been receiving my updates when MS release them; other than the first one that took one or two weeks every other have been the same day (but I’m not in USA).

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-clarifies-18-month-android-upgrade-program-details-far-f/
When pressed about how long it'd take updates to flow to phones after given the thumbs-up by Google itself, there's no hard news to report. In fact, the details there are still being hashed out.
To quote Google, "It's a logistics problem." We can only imagine. Trying to get every Android partner to follow a timeline for releases has to be a complete and utter nightmare, but the company seems certain that these stipulations won't cripple anyone's ability to innovate on their skins (or have too little time to make the needed changes).
We would've loved to hear a specific figure that we could start holding phone manufacturers to, but alas, it isn't to be. The only hard number thrown out today is 18 months. That's how long future hardware will be in the support cycle (at least, anyway), so you'll "soon" be able to count on your next Android device receiving all applicable updates for 1.5 years after purchase.

The guideline is yet to be hashed out. That's why they practically included everyone in the group to come up with a guide line. The only reason AT&T is included is because AT&T wants to make sure the final guideline doesn't put it in the spotlight again, like must release updates within 6 months of Google release That will never happen. I'm pretty sure the final guide line will be 12-month (from Google release the code and you see it on your phone), i.e. totally worthless and waste of time. Android is an open source platform, Google has no say about who can use the code and when they need to release the updates. The only thing Google can do is withheld Android market support.

And if they take longer than the set time frame? What happens?
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Nothing would happen. It is called guide line, not rules.

Well then, that'll really be a game changer then... /sarcasm
Where is the news in this?
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munkeyphyst said:
Well then, that'll really be a game changer then... /sarcasm
Where is the news in this?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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There is none. FWIW MS has "guidelines" on updates as well, i.e. that carriers cannot block two consecutive updates.
-R

I smell a publicity fail from Google.

Well I have a wp7 and an android phone, I have to say there is no reason the OEMs cannot make their addtions such as the sense UI to be a replacement, that can be removed and updated seperately from the core OS. If they did that then it would allow for quicker updates.
In the past there were almost no updates done to phone other than small ones that were carrier specific (ie settings or patches) but major upgrades did not really happen. I would not be surprised if eventually updates to the phones to start costing money, much like a new version of OS X or a new version of windows does on a PC.

It's not a timeline.
It's just enforcing devices to be supported for 18 months.
It doesn't mean the manufacturers/carriers will have x amount of days after an android update to release said update. They can still release a phone with FroYo, and take 17 months to release gingerbread for that phone.
Also, it depends on whether the device's hardware supports the update and knowing Andorid manufacturers like HTC they'll just put a ROM chip too small to take any major updates in the phone, etc. Your Evo 4.0 can't support Sense 3.0? Good luck getting that update! HTC will not "downgrade" an Evo 4G from Sense 2 to Stock Android...
They are still trying to get the details panned out, but I'm not getting my hopes up. There are still phones out there sending SMS/MMS to the wrong contacts because the manufacturers don't even prioritize security updates for their phones (which, IMO, is a MUCH bigger issues than even large feature updates...). Android is a huge, hot mess when it comes to updates.

bill.g said:
Well I have a wp7 and an android phone, I have to say there is no reason the OEMs cannot make their addtions such as the sense UI to be a replacement, that can be removed and updated seperately from the core OS. If they did that then it would allow for quicker updates.
In the past there were almost no updates done to phone other than small ones that were carrier specific (ie settings or patches) but major upgrades did not really happen. I would not be surprised if eventually updates to the phones to start costing money, much like a new version of OS X or a new version of windows does on a PC.
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Are you a developer?
Those aren't themes. They're deep customizations many of which have access to parts of the system that would require a "normal" app to run with Super User permissions. You can't release much of that as an App in the marketplace... Not to mention, they would just end up getting pirated by everyone and at worse breaking a bunch of phones that weren't designed to run the software (freezing them, reboot loops, making them unbootable, etc.).
There's also the issue of drivers, because different manufacturers use dispirate hardware configurations with screens, SoCs, cameras, etc. from dispirate sources. Getting all of that to work on an update is MUCH harder than getting the skins functional.
You people (generally speaking) really think the skins are the issue? They are not. Android (specifically, Linux) is the issue. The skins are easy as hell. The latest Epic 4G Gingerbread Leak has a working TouchWiz, but most of the phone/smartphone functionality is broken. That's a great example on just how easy porting the skins form version to version is. Skins typically aren't that sensitive to kernal ABI changes - device drivers ARE.
The fact that Android is based on Linux by default ensures that updates will have issues because it inherits many of Linux's issues. A Windows Mobile 6.0 update could in many cases just reuse drivers developed for Windows Mobile 5.0the same way Windows 7 can use many Windows XP drivers without any issues.
Linux doesn't have this type of backward/forward compatibility. That's why those leaked updates often have close to nothing working on them (No Wifi, no calls, no this, no that, etc.). Linux doesn't have a stable ABI for driver developers. Kernel updates can break any and/or everything. This means that the turnaround for updates is much longer than it will be for something like WP7.
The biggest issue with Android is the fact that Manufacturers and Carriers do not even prioritize critical security updates, and Google seems intent on not patching and quickly propagating patches for exploits used to root devices. Which is nice for tinkerers, but can be an issue when a malware uses that exploit on someone's device to perform malicious actions...

N8ter said:
It's not a timeline.
It's just enforcing devices to be supported for 18 months.
It doesn't mean the manufacturers/carriers will have x amount of days after an android update to release said update. They can still release a phone with FroYo, and take 17 months to release gingerbread for that phone.
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I'm pretty sure they said timely updates. Which means they are going to work out some sort of guidelines on how long it takes for the updates to get pushed out. What that actually is remains to be seen though.

Ballmer: Windows Phones aren't selling very well, but we're not worried

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/15/ballmer-windows-phones-arent-selling-very-well-but-were-not/
Thoughts?

I don't see how it could have been different:
- WP pre-mango is lacking
- advertsing went from light to inexistant
- there haven't been new handsets (ports to other carriers don't count)
- manufacturers aren't bothered
- carriers aren't bothered
- some services and apps are limited to the US
- XBL has been poor overall
- there's a new android phone almost every week
I'm sure I could still go for a bit but yeah, no surprise there.

Peew971 said:
I don't see how it could have been different:
- WP pre-mango is lacking
- advertsing went from light to inexistant
- there haven't been new handsets (ports to other carriers don't count)
- manufacturers aren't bothered
- carriers aren't bothered
- some services and apps are limited to the US
- XBL has been poor overall
- there's a new android phone almost every week
I'm sure I could still go for a bit but yeah, no surprise there.
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If I were a financial analyst interested in MS's mobile performance for whatever weird reason, I'd certainly ask what's going to be different from now on to change the situation.
If Nokia and Mango are everything Microsoft has to offer, prospects are rather weak in the near term. Nokia is struggling across the world and across the whole line of its products. Mango brings changes which aren't visible easily, and they matter for those who already use the product.
Neither carriers nor OEMs (apart from Nokia) are excited about WP7 any more than they were a year ago. Services are still limited. XBL didn't really change at all. Android handsets will still be popping up every week. There are a few new handsets which will basically replace year-old devices, but Titan and Radar seem to be really overpriced and not anything groundbreaking. Nokia doesn't seem to be able to offer much until next year, one device with limited distribution won't be a game changer.
Improved international presence will certainly increase the numbers, but that will double sales in the most optimistic scenario. Other than that, I don't see anything. Those "hundreds" of salespeople MS is hiring to work with retail worldwide is nothing unless each one of them is capable of being present at hundreds of places simultaneously. That Microsoft will suddenly learn how to do marketing properly is absolutely unbelievable.

vangrieg said:
If I were a financial analyst interested in MS's mobile performance for whatever weird reason, I'd certainly ask what's going to be different from now on to change the situation.
If Nokia and Mango are everything Microsoft has to offer, prospects are rather weak in the near term. Nokia is struggling across the world and across the whole line of its products. Mango brings changes which aren't visible easily, and they matter for those who already use the product.
Neither carriers nor OEMs (apart from Nokia) are excited about WP7 any more than they were a year ago. Services are still limited. XBL didn't really change at all. Android handsets will still be popping up every week. There are a few new handsets which will basically replace year-old devices, but Titan and Radar seem to be really overpriced and not anything groundbreaking. Nokia doesn't seem to be able to offer much until next year, one device with limited distribution won't be a game changer.
Improved international presence will certainly increase the numbers, but that will double sales in the most optimistic scenario. Other than that, I don't see anything. Those "hundreds" of salespeople MS is hiring to work with retail worldwide is nothing unless each one of them is capable of being present at hundreds of places simultaneously. That Microsoft will suddenly learn how to do marketing properly is absolutely unbelievable.
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Despite all the doom and gloom, I for one am glad I have a choice and am not forced to use an iphone or android if I want a modern smartphone OS. The anti-MS, anti-WP7 bias is real and true (not least here on this forum) but as long as there is a WP OS that is supported by Microsoft, sales numbers and popularity notwithstanding, that is all I will be buying.

Well the fact that Windows phone 7 wasn't selling well was an already known fact. they only manage to get their moneis from royalties.

efjay said:
Despite all the doom and gloom, I for one am glad I have a choice and am not forced to use an iphone or android if I want a modern smartphone OS. The anti-MS, anti-WP7 bias is real and true (not least here on this forum) but as long as there is a WP OS that is supported by Microsoft, sales numbers and popularity notwithstanding, that is all I will be buying.
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Well, so will I. The topic is about sales though, and I'm not too optimistic about this area now.
I'm sure WP7 won't be abandoned anytime soon so it's not that big of a deal for me personally, but low sales do affect me and you, at least indirectly. I'm less than happy about device selection, for example. Another problem is that MS has been given a lot of credit by developers, but this can't last forever. Sales will have to pick up to keep apps flowing to the platform.

That's what happens when they release a smartphone with no features (no common features of the day).
They can't expect to gain any kind of a market when the competition has everything the user wants and their offerings don't.

MartyLK said:
They can't expect to gain any kind of a market when the competition has everything the user wants and their offerings don't.
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I bet the name of the OS hurt sales 10 times more than the feature set.

As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy. Zune never caught on, but I was happy with that. When WP7 came out, I passed those on to other family members and they enjoy them. I've come to the point where what you like doesn't affect my enjoyment. Heck, if the WP7 marketplace is compatible with windows 8 I doubt I'd care much if WP7 died.
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macjr82 said:
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy.
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Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.

Peew971 said:
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
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..why to be so anxious? Mango is right on the door steps, Samsung, HTC and others are coming with new devices this year. Nokia will be on the market soon...
So the OS and Hardware are at the same level as Apple and Android... And I think you also got the news that WP7 apps will also run on Windows 8...So what do you think the developers will do.....?

macjr82 said:
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy. Zune never caught on, but I was happy with that. When WP7 came out, I passed those on to other family members and they enjoy them. I've come to the point where what you like doesn't affect my enjoyment. Heck, if the WP7 marketplace is compatible with windows 8 I doubt I'd care much if WP7 died.
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well windows phones aren't selling but it isn't due to product its due to a lot of other factors...

I'm not worried. WP7 isn't going anywhere and when Windows 8 and WP8 are released that fact that both will be able share apps will push the sales of WP8 devices.
PCs, Slates, Mobile, Xbox. One UI to rule them all.

FTC said:
the OS and Hardware are at the same level as Apple and Android...
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Software is pretty close, hardware isn't.

I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.

Peew971 said:
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
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Sorry but this is Microsoft we are talking about. They have too much money to ever lose Dev suport.
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RoboDad said:
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
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Windows Mobile wasn't really succeeding that much for years and it didn't stop them.

That's true, but the market is different now than it was then. Look how quickly they pulled the plug on the Kin.
And, at its peak, Windows Mobile was quite a bit more successful than WP7 is right now. That's why I think the next 6 months are so crucial.

version numbers dont matter
In this segment, version numbers don't matter. Ms could name it wp99999 (5 9s reference) and no one would care. Its about innovating and unfortunately hardware specs... the UI can only go so far in convincing folks.
Kin has already been mentioned...
I read balmers comments too- that does not sound like an executive with any confidence in a product to me. If he isn't behind it, who is ? Developers won't matter if the os gets the axe from upstairs. Also, it looks very bad to investors and other workers when a failing segment gets money poured into it.
What to do ?
Open the floodgates, subsidize phones for $1 each out the door, and pay off every hardware maker to make more phones.
Will it happen ? Nope.
The people want BOOM! Today, not promises of it sometime soon.

RoboDad said:
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
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Click to collapse
Absolutely no chance MS is just going to just up and stop developing WP7. Especially in just 6 months. First thing that comes to mind is how they approached the original Xbox. Lost millions (if not billions) for years but stuck with it. The outlay for WP7 is hardly in the same territory so cost wise thats not a reason for them.
If OEM's bail, we know Nokia wont be one of them. For them to do a reversal would be the death knell for them so no matter what they are going to stick with WP7, even if they have to give it away.
Another reason is WP is becoming a critical part of the ecosystem MS wants to pitch to consumers and businesses. If they abandon it are they going to be using iphone or android to push MS services and software? Even when WM was unpopular they still had some place for it, I dont see them using a competitor's smartphone as the focus for their software. Its one way they can get consumers and businesses into the MS world (as apple is doing) so it would be hard for them to essentially just give up a crucial way to get more people using Microsoft software and services.
Worse case scenario, I see MS and Nokia going it alone, but when it comes down to it thats not a bad combination. I know this forum would love to see WP7 go away, but history has shown us how persistent MS can be, and this is one sector of the market that is too important to think they would just walk away. Windows Phone is a long, long way from going anywhere.

Is Nokia causing fragmentation on Windows Phone with their exclusive apps? YES

Saw this great article (http://www.wpcentral.com/nokia-causing-fragmentation-windows-phone-their-exclusive-apps) and it's worth discussion. Actually I'm pissed about what Nokia is doing. Is it by force to use a Nokia device?? If I dont, why I'm I being punnised for it by not getting some good apps?
Nokia has made moves to gain some big titles (and leverage) for their hardware. Who does it hurt? Who does it benefit and is it a good thing? I say a BIG NO, it's not a good thing. Good for Nokia but not for the OS (Windows Phone)
The real deal is, Nokia’s strategy to get these apps and games on their hardware will definetely hurt Windows Phone and I can see Nokia's Version of Windows Phone coming out real soon and it aint good.
Pissed this morning, Always Nokia, Nokia, Nokia all ove the news with exclusive good apps.....WTF

All of the applications will be timed exclusive to nokia phones. Since the applications will be arriving sooner or later to other windows phones, i see no harm is being made. That being said, i think this is nokia trying to make developers care for the windows phone platform and is helping them to develop their applications for windows. That is probably why they get a timed exclusive for their phones. In the end, every windows phone user will be benefited as more applications will arrive to the platform!

I do not see why this is a bad thing.
1. Every manufacturer has their exclusive apps. Nokia is not the first one to do this, it's what manufacturers need on WP7 to differ themselves from each other.
2. Some of these are not even proper exclusives. These are timed exclusive and will be available to other phones at a later time as well.

I agree with you but wait for a year or what? Why do I have to wait soo long to get a CNN or ESPN app on my phone? How many people can just wait for apps they want desperately? I just can't wait and I just can't get a Lumia device so what? How about we that fall in this category?

Kenzibit said:
I agree with you but wait for a year or what? Why do I have to wait soo long to get a CNN or ESPN app on my phone? How many people can just wait for apps they want desperately? I just can't wait and I just can't get a Lumia device so what? How about we that fall in this category?
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ESPN has another app, and is also available online. CNN can be pulled into any RSS reader. Are these the only examples you have?
If so, the argument is very weak.
For the apps that dont exist - would they at all anyway if not for Nokia? Would you get them any sooner if not for Nokia? At all?
I see no validity in the argument for fragmentation. App availability by region has always been there. Is China causing fragmentation in WP7 because Twitter and Facebook have been removed for any handset sold in China?

Kenzibit said:
I agree with you but wait for a year or what? Why do I have to wait soo long to get a CNN or ESPN app on my phone? How many people can just wait for apps they want desperately? I just can't wait and I just can't get a Lumia device so what? How about we that fall in this category?
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Because Nokia is investing the time and money to develop these apps in the first place or at least is incenting the content owner (CNN or ESPN) to create these apps.
as eknutson described it already: If not for Nokia, you'd probably not see these apps at all or at least a lot later, when the OS has seen a wider range of adoption.
Let me also point out that some apps are not even without an alternative. Take the announced "BOX" app: Why wait for an official app, if "Boxfiles For Box.net FREE" does the same job?
If you managed to live without a paypal app this long, why not another 6 months?

hMM
i have to admit the ESPN app on Nokia is nice, I just used the switcher app in the forum.

LOL, what is all the nonsense about fragmentation?
You act like the apps won't work on other WP devices.
Nokia coughed up their own money to make the developers bring these apps to WP and you want them to then share with other OEMs?!?
OEMs who have been in the game significantly longer and have simply twiddled their thumbs and blamed MS for all WP woes while pumping out me-too devices as opposed to innovating?
BE REAL!
Thank Nokia for giving these developers the incentive to give WP the time of day.
Once they begin working on their apps, they will realize just how easy it is to code for the OS, leading to more apps in the future as opposed to the current developers having to rely on APIs that blocked all the time (Pandora, Instagram) so they too can produce their own original apps for the platform.
Plus fragmentation refers to the OS version, not the apps themselves.
And if you're so mad about it, go buy a Nokia device.

Well let's see, either Nokia gets them first by paying cash out of their own pockets and then in time shares it with the OEMs who couldn't care less about doing anything for the platform, or we don't get them at all because no OEM cares. Without Nokia, WP7 really would be a lesser OS. Don't get me wrong, I used a DVP for almost a year before the first Nokia device got sent my way, but Nokia made WP7 MUCH better.
Not only does this give us the games, it builds the framework to create future versions of the game. This is helping WP7 perpetually, now stop getting angry that you picked up a piece of recycled android hardware and be happy for all that Nokia has done for our fine OS.

Other OEM's are free to make deals with big development companies too...

But they won´t, take a look at HTC for example, they could make deal with Route 66 about navigation, for example one/two free maps, but no, they offer you trial, and then you must pay.

Excellent comments so far but I still don't think it's fair for people to benefit more than others on the same OS. In the Android world, I think it's about OS customizations and not apps benefits. All apps are acquired by everyone, the only difference being your customizations and experience.
Secondly, I know some HTC and MS workers will see this post, after all they are here with us under disguise ;-)

Yea, right, I hate everyone who owns an HTC because he has an sound enhancer...wait, I don´t, I don´t even hated LG for having DLNA app in front of many others...just think please!
Some companies put simply more effort into the platform, HTC puts it into the Android OS, Nokia is so far first OEM whose commitment can be really seen, and you want to hate just because of that? Gimmie a break.

It could encourage HTC and Samsung to retreat even more from Windows Phone, if their sales get that much worse in comparison.
And if they instead take the initiative and start on the same strategy then that would be fragmentation, just like the article says. Temporary fragmentation, to be sure, but what happens when someone realizes that "I either buy HTC and get this and this app, or Samsung and get this and this app, or Nokia and get this and this app"?

thebobp said:
It could encourage HTC and Samsung to retreat even more from Windows Phone, if their sales get that much worse in comparison.
And if they instead take the initiative and start on the same strategy then that would be fragmentation, just like the article says. Temporary fragmentation, to be sure, but what happens when someone realizes that "I either buy HTC and get this and this app, or Samsung and get this and this app, or Nokia and get this and this app"?
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Going on this way Android should have failed real quick then. But apparently it's alive and well...to me stepping up the competion always leads to a win for the user. Without HTC and other OEMs skinning the older, fugly and piss poor versions of Android there would have been no Android boom at all IMHO. Thanks to them actually investing on the platform, it is now the most relevant phone OS in the world. Not bad heh?

vnvman said:
Going on this way Android should have failed real quick then. But apparently it's alive and well...to me stepping up the competion always leads to a win for the user. Without HTC and other OEMs skinning the older, fugly and piss poor versions of Android there would have been no Android boom at all IMHO. Thanks to them actually investing on the platform, it is now the most relevant phone OS in the world. Not bad heh?
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I'm not talking about skinning (which the user can rationalize as "am i buying this look or that look?" ) but apps actually being unavailable depending on which phone you buy. Say all manufacturers start advertising very hard: "come to us; the others don't have these apps!" Unfortunately, this is negative advertising, and incoming users would start wondering "eh, why don't i just go to iOS, where i'll have all of them?" that's the essence of fragmentation.
Of course, the other alternative (that nobody else bothers to escalate) is almost as bad.
sent from my Terran Command Center.

This thread must be a wind-up. Seriously -- no one could be complaining about "fragmentation" due to one OEM deciding to bring more value to their own handsets.

Kenzibit said:
Is Nokia causing fragmentation on Windows Phone with their exclusive apps? YES
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Click to collapse
I don't understand your use of the word "fragmentation." At present if a developer chooses to make an app that works on ALL Windows Phones they can. If some developer is sitting on their @$$ and only servicing the iphone market and a manufacturer makes a deal and pays the developer to make an exclusive app for their phone I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they are saying, hey ebay I know you have a Windows Phone app. Why don't I pay you to pull it and only make it for my handsets.
HTC can join the party or fold. By Nokia enticing developers with ITS OWN MONEY they are only expanding the Windows Phone eco system. I don't really see a time in the future where so many apps are bought up everyone has a hard time getting an app on their phone. Once a critical mass of apps are on Windows Phone more handsets will sell and developers will create apps without incentives. Heck if someone enticed epocrates to create a Windows Phone version of their software I would buy that brand of phone. That would be better than the current state of affairs (ie nothing).

sitizenx said:
I don't understand your use of the word "fragmentation." At present if a developer chooses to make an app that works on ALL Windows Phones they can. If some developer is sitting on their @$$ and only servicing the iphone market and a manufacturer makes a deal and pays the developer to make an exclusive app for their phone I don't see what the problem is. It's not like they are saying, hey ebay I know you have a Windows Phone app. Why don't I pay you to pull it and only make it for my handsets.
Click to expand...
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Same result either way: the app is available only for Nokia (at least temporarily). If you agree the latter is fragmentation, then you'll agree the former is. Fragmentation for a good reason is still fragmentation.
Right now it's not that worrisome; what is worrisome is if the others happen to respond in kind. Then we'll really have fragmentation of apps - "such and such is available only on HTC Windows Phone, such and such only on Samsung Windows Phone, and such and such only on Nokia".

That's not "fragmentation," it's "exclusivity."
Different issue.