Security is an important aspect of anything that gets used by anyone, at any given moment around the world. For developers of applications that get purchased through a digital storefront, like Microsoft’s Windows Phone 7 Marketplace, making sure that it’s not easy, next to impossible in fact, to steal apps and put them on a device free-of-charge is just as important. But, as WPCentral reports, it looks like the Digital Rights Management (DRM) security tools set in place by Microsoft have been cracked!
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Fortunately, though, the program that is being used to do so is not known to the general public. In point of fact, the “white hat” developer that created it is just showing it as a proof of concept. If the program were to make it out into the world, then it would be possible for some people out there to strip the DRM from applications available in the Windows Phone 7 Marketplace, and then download them for free.
As of the time of this writing, Microsoft hasn’t made an official comment regarding the security hole. WPCentral has been in contact with Brandon Watson from Microsoft, but so far they have not heard back from him. The video demonstrating the proof of concept program making short work of DRM for the Windows Phone 7 applications can be viewed below.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=flqB9WCkGiQ
The depressing thing is it's so disturbingly easy. I stumbled on it getting HTC Apps to work on my Samsung, and it's far too easy. I think it'll probably be a matter of time before piracy becomes public on WP7, so to speak.
And for any doubters as to whether it is genuine (seen a few in my travels) - It works. A paid-for, commercial application running in the Windows Phone 7 emulator, after being deployed from a cracked XAP.
Still, it's good to see that WP7 seems to attract the sort of user that isn't a rabid pirate. Despite the ground being laid for some time, and despite people having independently developed methods of piracy, No-one has yet put such information into the public domain, seeking a way of solving the problems, rather than exploiting them.
Microsoft have made an official comment, by email to every developer, on the 16th November, titled "Windows Phone 7 App Protection". It included a white paper on the topic which pretty much said it was easy to steal apps but was a limited risk because of a developer unlocked phone is needed, a limit to how many side loaded apps, basically a couple of steps which would turn off the casual pirate.
I suppose what's new here is a simple one click tool that exploits MS's oversight in this statement: "all signed applications on an unlocked phone still require a license acquired through Marketplace to run". Basically they didn't realise that if you strip the signature, no license is required.
Another thing is they shouldn't have made paid apps on unsecured URLs, they should have put more effort into a secure download system like Apple or pretty much anyone else has.
I guess the main problem, that was a fatal flaw in the design of the platform, is they don't allow native apps only .NET apps, which means almost every single app available can easily be decompiled back to source form. It's a much bigger problem if other developers can steal your code than a few users stealing your app. It's for this reason WP7 can't be taken seriously as a development platform. Oh also it means 3rd party apps launch too slow compared to the built in ones, 1 minute to launch Tetris what a joke.
If you could somehow exclude the paid apps from this "FreeMarketplace" it would be really helpful for people who live in countries where the marketplace isn't as good content wise as in the usa.
That way everyone could download those free apps without the region problems.
These are just my thoughts on this. I'm not a developer or anything so I don't really know if this is actually possible without hurting the developers in any way.
indiekiduk said:
Microsoft have made an official comment, by email to every developer, on the 16th November, titled "Windows Phone 7 App Protection". It included a white paper on the topic which pretty much said it was easy to steal apps but was a limited risk because of a developer unlocked phone is needed, a limit to how many side loaded apps, basically a couple of steps which would turn off the casual pirate.
I suppose what's new here is a simple one click tool that exploits MS's oversight in this statement: "all signed applications on an unlocked phone still require a license acquired through Marketplace to run". Basically they didn't realise that if you strip the signature, no license is required.
Another thing is they shouldn't have made paid apps on unsecured URLs, they should have put more effort into a secure download system like Apple or pretty much anyone else has.
I guess the main problem, that was a fatal flaw in the design of the platform, is they don't allow native apps only .NET apps, which means almost every single app available can easily be decompiled back to source form. It's a much bigger problem if other developers can steal your code than a few users stealing your app. It's for this reason WP7 can't be taken seriously as a development platform. Oh also it means 3rd party apps launch too slow compared to the built in ones, 1 minute to launch Tetris what a joke.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You still need a dev unlocked device to sideload the cracked apps. Chevron7 doesn't really do the job as the phone relocks itself every week? which gets a bit annoying and might put people off, and also delete all the sideloaded apps with it. Imagine that, all your save games, app settings and history being reset every week.
Unless someone improves on Chevron7 I don't think piracy is much of a danger.
thats a great revolution, wp is now jailbreaked )) have funnn
digger1985 said:
You still need a dev unlocked device to sideload the cracked apps. Chevron7 doesn't really do the job as the phone relocks itself every week? which gets a bit annoying and might put people off, and also delete all the sideloaded apps with it. Imagine that, all your save games, app settings and history being reset every week.
Unless someone improves on Chevron7 I don't think piracy is much of a danger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it relocks, it doesn't delete any sideloaded apps, it just prompts you to uninstall when you attempt to run them (though you can escape from the prompt of course). Also, you can avoid it relocking by putting the phone in Flight Mode before syncing.
hounsell said:
I stumbled on it getting HTC Apps to work on my Samsung, and it's far too easy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
THAT is very useful. Sharing HTC, LG and Samsung oem apps across platforms should be allowed.
hounsell said:
If it relocks, it doesn't delete any sideloaded apps, it just prompts you to uninstall when you attempt to run them (though you can escape from the prompt of course). Also, you can avoid it relocking by putting the phone in Flight Mode before syncing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum).
As far as I understand, that's it, nothing more. No DRM crack, no "apps cracked", no "security hole" - just nothing!
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative. In theory it's possible but... We saw a lot (no, A LOT!) of commercial native apps for win32, mac etc. successfully cracked and hacked. Just visit any pirate tracker for proof. So, it's not a "big .NET problem".
digger1985 said:
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Without real hack (hacking license verification etc.) it's not possible. Simple downloader described here as "WP7 ultimate crack" can't help. If you want you may search my posts here, I've already posted direct link to HTC's youtube xap...
I think it's real.
Another guy also did the same
http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/70704.aspx
He cracked an app on request and loaded into the emulator.
sensboston said:
Without real hack (hacking license verification etc.) it's not possible. Simple downloader described here as "WP7 ultimate crack" can't help. If you want you may search my posts here, I've already posted direct link to HTC's youtube xap...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe Hounsell managed to run the HTC stocks app on a Samsung
http://www.neowin.net/news/htc-wp7-app-ported-to-other-wp7-hardware
digger1985 said:
I think it's real
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Real what? Read my post above... If someone "hacked" non-obfuscated small application by removing or blocking IsTrial() requests, it's not a real hack.
Ask this guy to "hack" NeedForSpeed Undercover ;-)
sensboston said:
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative. In theory it's possible but... We saw a lot (no, A LOT!) of commercial native apps for win32, mac etc. successfully cracked and hacked. Just visit any pirate tracker for proof. So, it's not a "big .NET problem".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You didn't see any source code for commercial native apps because there are no automatic tools that do it, but you can see source code for all WP7 apps, using a free utility called Reflector. You choose the app, and it generates a visual studio project containing the code, simple as that.
In my experience developers don't readily use .NET obfuscators because they generally introduce instability which leads to increased development time.
indiekiduk said:
You didn't see any source code for commercial native apps because there are no automatic tools that do it, but you can see source code for all WP7 apps, using a free utility called Reflector.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Huh? HexRays has an ARM decompiler which can produce readable C. It is possible to get back to similar to the source equivalent (with a lot of manual tweaking). If MS used a strong packer on the native code then it would make reversing it much harder/time consuming. At the end of the day it still needs to execute.
I've used .NET Reflector for years (and I do have another one, for Java/.NET written by my friend - sorry, can't announce it here).
My question is: have you ever tried to disassemble and re-assemble big, obfuscated application? Or you just theorizing? I did, and it's very complicated/not possible (at least by using Reflector tool only). This method is good for small non-obfuscated application only.
For the topic: here is my "proof of concept"
- use this url to browse Zune market for apps:
http://catalog.zune.net/v3.2/en-US/apps?q=Ebook Reader&clientType=WinMobile 7.0&store=zest
replace Ebook%20Reader to any your search term, don't exactly know about "store" field and en-US. You'll get an XML in response with found apps info.
To get an app full download url, I believe, you'll need some additional requests but I don't have time (and interest!) now to play with Wireshark and track Zune's and WP marketplace requests...
sensboston said:
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum)
As for .NET apps vulnerability: does anybody here have an experience to disassemble and compile back a really complicated and large application, obfuscated by the latest commercial version of Dotfuscator (actually, the wp7 devs can obtain it for free until March 2011)? I've tried once (of course I'm not a "some hat - white or black, just a pro developer)... Results are negative.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? You should be able to decompile it and recomplie it with Reflector though, right? Even if the actual meaning of the code is hard to deduce after that point.....The CIL is stack-based, so you should be able to break it up into functions if nothing else.....
sensboston said:
This "proof of concept" shows only one thing (according to youtube video) - guys intercepted search requests from Zune, parse the responce and make a simple app to duplicate Zune's functionality. Anyone who can spend 30 minutes to WireShark and couple hours for coding can do the same app (actually, I've already posted a direct URL's to the marketplace apps on this forum)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya, this guy is lame. Let's ignore him and get back to work getting real stuff done.
n0psl3d said:
It is possible to get back to similar to the source equivalent (with a lot of manual tweaking) ... At the end of the day it still needs to execute.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This ^^
Reflector is great, but it's not a one-stop-recompile-shop. It still takes a massive amount of restructuring to get even an un-obfuscated application back together.
Also, WP7 business logic is almost always in the cloud. For 90% of applications, XAPs are basically just UIs - especially with the intense restrictions imposed on development right now.
digger1985 said:
Any chance of sharing the (Free) HTC Youtube app? That's the only I desire desperately.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've got it running, but it doesn't function at the moment because HTC decided to use their own native functions tied to their driver, rather than the inbuilt .NET classes. All the network requests the app makes fails. Thinking of possible ways round this, but it would probably end up being so much work, it might just be quicker to create a clone.
Blade0rz said:
This ^^
Reflector is great, but it's not a one-stop-recompile-shop. It still takes a massive amount of restructuring to get even an un-obfuscated application back together.
Also, WP7 business logic is almost always in the cloud. For 90% of applications, XAPs are basically just UIs - especially with the intense restrictions imposed on development right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Reverse-engineering, and even modifying an existing app is one thing in Reflector, but copy/pasting code will never work in large quantities, it's just not that accurate in my experience. So sure, your tips and tricks might not be safe, but your app as a whole isn't going to be just duplicated and reuploaded to the marketplace.
Of course, "cracked" for piracy is a whole other matter.
Related
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series. The interface of the new mobile operating system has been changed though, so the user interface for these applications will have to be changed as well.
"So there is no reason why programs written for Windows Mobile 6 cannot run on the new version of the OS", said Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands to Tweakers.net. "The interface is complete different though, so the applications will have to be changed somewhat before being ready for Windows Phone 7 Series".
It is still unclear how developers can port their user interfaces to the new version of Windows Mobile. Microsoft will only disclose how applications can be developed and distributed at their developer event Mix2010.
Microsoft announced it’s new OS on Monday afternoon at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. The OS is primarily aimed at synchronisation and integration with Microsft-services like Windows Live, Bing, Zune and Xbox Live. Aside from those Windows Phone 7 Series can also synchronise with Google-accounts and facebook.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source
So in summary, while none of the current applications will run on it, the underlying non-UI APIs will be compatible. So if understand correctly, porting would just a case of redeveloping the UI then recompiling, rather than starting completely from scratch. This acts to filter out apps with no more developer support, and promote a consistent UI.
Doesn't sound too bad to me.
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
elyl said:
That might explain why TomTom was seen on that screenshot of WP7 running on the HD2 (although, it could be a fake!). TomTom takes control of the screen, so uses no WM interface elements. So, it might be able to run full-screen apps/games without changes.
But, who knows...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was just thinking the same except if you use the included .net controls, there's no reason that the OS couldn't just reskin them automatically to be at least somewhat more in line with the WP7 styling.
This would be excellent if it's true - and I can't see why it wouldn't be. The UI may be new but why throw away a perfectly good underlying core.
What would also be ideal is if the "multi-tasking" involved an app being set to pause in the background by default, but with a "keep me running" API call available for apps that needed it. I'm sure most apps hog resourses not because they need to but because the developer hasn't really thought about how the rest of the device performs when his app has been left running.
Makes sense, WindowsCE core is still the same
Zaim2 said:
Applications that were made for Windows Mobile 6 are compatible with Windows Phone 7 Series
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely wrong statement due to incorrect translation. Original: "De interface van Windows Phone 7 Series is totaal anders, waardoor er in elk geval iets aan de applicaties moet gebeuren voordat ze geschikt zijn voor Windows Phone 7 Series"
Even google translates it correctly:
"The interface of Windows 7 Phone Series is different, which in any case something should happen to the applications before they are suitable for Windows 7 Phone Series".
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010 that proves that none of the existing apps would be compatible with WinPhone7. And the only programming suite that is available to "generic" application-writers is Silverlight+XNA. Native apps are prohibited. Only OEMs and MO are allowed to create them (and even they have a set of limitations).
We would not have even source code compatibility - as all our C++ apps have to be converted to .NET.
mamaich said:
We have some "ms confidential" documentation dated January 2010...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What the heck? And you say that only now? What else is in there? Any word about how background tasks are handled? Please give us some more information, or maybe, can you upload that documentation?
freyberry said:
maybe, can you upload that documentation?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, there's certainly a way to remove that information. But anyway, what about background tasks? Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
mamaich said:
Obviously I cannot. As it would reveal the person who provided it.
Just to prove that such info really exists - see attached screenshots.
I really hope that the community would force MS to change such a dumb idea to limit independent software vendors to create only managed apps. Prohibiting C++ as a developing language, and "hiding" Windows API from programmer would force lots of developers to abandon this platform. The main reason of success of old WinMobile OSes was the ability to recompile "desktop" apps to WinMobile with just a minor set of changes (ANSI->Unicode + some interface changes).
P.S. I don't read PMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, I can't believe noone has picked up on this
freyberry said:
Are third party applications allowed to run in the background?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background. I never programmed Silverlight and XNA and can't tell how multitatsking is made in them.
WinPhone 7 == Zune Phone. Both are based on CE kernel, and they should have lots of common in implementation of multitasking, clipboard, etc.
OS itself supports multitasking, see attach. But "Windows Phone OS 7.0 Application Platform" that we'll be forced to use to create apps may force our application to be paused in background.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
I’m not sure this is a big deal. I can see them saying a lot of native C++ apps may have compatibility issues. I could go either way on it with the limited amount of information I have on this. I’ll have a better opinion at and after MIX
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation. Personally, I hope you get into trouble for breaking your contract - they trust you and you're posting it? Yuck.
To be fair, though, every app we’ve written has been managed, and Microsoft hasn't t said P/Invoking is verboten, so what would be the problem?
There’s probably exceptions for games and the like, and the documents you've scanned even say a waiver is available to use the Native APIs. So I don’t know what you're complaining about…
Microsoft's dev teams have been listening to developers - why not get them to chime in and also give them a chance to hear you. Posting confidential Microsoft documents, assuming those are real, is not the way to get them to listen
Best,
-Auri
freyberry said:
The question is, can we write applications that are not automatically suspended when sent to the background? What are the policies on this?
It says multiple processes can run at the same time, but it does not say whether they get suspended automatically.
Is there any info on this? Maybe in the "Scheduling" section?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Personally, I like Android's approach to this, where Services can run in the background, but UI apps are allowed to be "put to sleep" while other apps run. But then again, we may see a lot of that come into play come MIX and "Answer Time"
Best,
-Auri
Well, I am now both excited and nervous -I think I will just cool my jets until MIX10 and just enjoy the eye candy for now. At worst - if the interface is nice, but the core is crap I am sure some of the boys here at xda will make us an inteface port for 6.5.x that acts and looks like the new hotness with the old compatibility. - lets see MIX
AuriRahimzadeh said:
Note that this could be old documentation, and it’s pretty annoying you're leaking confidential documentation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
mamaich said:
Docs are dated 2010.
I'm not leaking the documentation. I'm sharing the information that anyway would be opened in some days, maybe weeks.
And screens are posted here just as a confirmation of my words. You may think that these pics come from my mind and are made with photoshop - it is your opinion.
I really think that WinPhone 7 would be a failure similar to desktop Vista. Of cause some people would like it, but most would stay on WM 6.x and wait for the next version.
Regarding P/Invoke. As far as I've seen, "unsafe" operations are prohibited in XNA and Silverlight. Otherwise we would be able to call coredll funcs and run native apps (and do everything else that is allowed in our chamber).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mamaich any though of a WP7 ce6.0 bsp for all the current cortex A8 devices running on a ce5.2 bsp, will the new kernel support them natively or will extensive bsp/bootloader hacking be required?
P/invoke surely is a limitation of .NET CF, rather than Silverlight/XNA libraries?
I think it would be a bit stupid to remove P/Invoking, because it's just not realistic to rely on .NETCF alone which has soooo much stuff stripped out to minimize size.
Will we be seeing a whole new .NETCF so soon after 3.5? I highly doubt it...Unless MS have been working overtime the past year
Shame, time to stop mobile development altogether if this is true. When we developers are considered as dumb earning pipes for companies who in their arrogant big ways think they have all the wisdom, and app developers only make annoying software that makes their precious leaky OS'es crash, it's time to move on. i would have been talking about IPhone, Android etc, but sadly we must add Microsoft to the list also.
Then there's the $1195,- and airplane tickets we have to pay to get to the Mix2010 in oder to maybe maybe get to be a "partner" with access to limited native API's (probably only reserved for the big companies) and don't even bother talking about giving away 30% of our earnings to a company that last year made how many billions of profits was it ?
Time to start an XDA OS based on REAL Linux maybe ? NVidia have a nice dev-board available for $400,- with Tegra on it. That's what I call developer friendly.
Cheers !
Regardless of how this will play out, I'm pretty sure of two things:
1. Closing down the OS may be beneficial for the majority of users by bringing stability, ease of use, UI consistency, etc. Even though I don't like it.
2. Because the OS itself is multitasking, any and all restrictions may be hacked around, and a "jailbreak" will be possible.
Depending on how this whole thing will be implemented, jailbreaking and using "illegal" apps may be a major PITA (think iPhone 3GS/tethered jailbreak) or as easy as a few registry tweaks/installing additional certs/whatever. If Apple didn't chase JB with every update it would be a rather good platform for both mainstream "ordinary" users and those who want rather unusual things from their phones.
We'll have to wait and see how it evolves really to make a final judgment.
I'm trying to gauge interest in developing manila/sense tabs, I'm looking for:
1. people interested in working on the facebook tab
2. people who want to make other tabs
3. people who are app developers who want to tie into tabs
4. we also need some people comfortable doing window apps
(I think we need help getting started with the Manila Kitchen GUI tools - currently command-line). There is plenty of guys who have worked on the tools and know tons about manila, just need a framework in which to tie into.
Please state if you are expert or beginner or willing to learn.
I think in most areas, support can be given to most to get them started (even if it's not your area of expertise) and will probably prove a good learning experience.
Now, just need to work out how to make this a poll...
OK, you can select more than one option at time:
- Expert can be considered Expert/Intermediate skill, i.e. you've made something and it works quite well.
- Beginner would be someone who has done small tweeks or done simple programs.
Ahh, forgot window app developers, in this case, register your interest (if you are), in the TouchFLO/Manila/SenseUI social group (a great bunch of guys who helped me from knowing nothing about sense):
Project: Manila GUI Kitchen Environment.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=223
Links are not working for me :/
I'd be interested in working on a Phone tab. something that included not only a call history, but some dynamic icons that showed (at the very least):
Missed calls.
Voice mail.
SMS/MMS
Email
It's amazing to me that this was on earlier versions of Manila/TF3D but isn't on the newer versions. This entire concept was supposed to be designed for a pda/PHONE converged device, but the phone side of it has been weakened on every upgrade.
AdamiX said:
Links are not working for me :/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll ask the group admin about it, perhaps you have to join as a member first...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/group.php?groupid=131
Trident said:
I'd be interested in working on a Phone tab.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can point you in the right direction if you need it, my method for working with manila at the moment, is decompile everything and then use a good search tool to find the kind of code I need. Seems to work quite well and you can find some interesting functions/features, I've also found using the registry is quite handy for experimenting since you can test out calling different apps with different arguments and also jumps to sense pages (which are internal URLs). Also it can give you a view of values which are being used internally.
So far getting interesting results on the poll!
Looks like a good mix of people which is great!
1. Those interested in taking the facebook tab further, I'm just working on a few bits at the moment for it (trying to tie in the last bits of HTC function), but will happily pass it on when people want me to. [I released it much sooner than I planned, but felt mean waiting any longer]
2. Those interested in learning about manila then have a look through my tutorials and that will hopefully get you started (I was a total beginner too when I started them). Please let me know if there are bits missing or bits which don't make sense etc, it's aimed at people who have done a little programming or at least get the general idea. If it's not clear enough then an entry level tutorial would be welcome (I've avoided too much click here, type this type detail because there is too much to explain in one go).
(leave feedback on the tutorial thread)
3. Those interested in developing manila and wm apps for using tabs, I'm hoping to build a "Custom Manila Interface Tab" which will ultimately provide an API type interface for apps. Will probably need a lot of work, so once I've done a basic proof of the concept, which will be very simple and populated via registry keys (i.e. simple list display which can be populated via a normal app) I will then open it up for group development.
4. Those interested in WM app development, hopefully with the new tab it will be easy to get started with some basic ideas and try them out. As the new tab (or it can be used as a sub-page) develops we will need to know what kinds of things we want to display.
i.e. for the facebook tab I can see this being used as a simple way for a external app to list notifications, comments and all kinds of information.
5. Windows application development, let me know if you can get on the group, I really hope that once given a framework a GUI can be put together. The mode9Editor is an excellent example (I think the author is on the group) and the CMD line kitchen is another amazing tool which brought together all the other fantastic tools (again I think most the original authors are there). Given a good start with a solid base, the GUI could become a very powerful tool!
-------
Developing wm is much easier than working with the manila files, and even HTC tend to tie into dlls/exes quite often to do the leg work, but it doesn't appear to be consistent (each module does things slightly differently) so a direct API would be a massive task. So hopefully an interface tab will bridge the gap, it'll probably provide a good point of reference for useful manila functions too. With the addition of a good GUI editor, I'll look forward to having fun making some really amazing apps (no not a fart selector app...).
Great thread meltwater, you may end up being the driving force of a whole new Manila experience
smeddy said:
Great thread meltwater, you may end up being the driving force of a whole new Manila experience
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, the guys before me have been that (would have been no hope without the tools), but hopefully we've got some interesting ideas on the table!
Excellent results on the poll.
Here is an update of what's currently happening:
1. Facebook Tab
I'm currently continuing development on the tab myself, since it is still providing me with useful knowledge on working with manila. It serves as a good driving force for me to try out more stuff.
[MOD][SENSE2.5TAB] Basic Facebook Tab - Developer Thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=663494
2. Custom Manila Interface Tab
I should be able to start work on this once I've learnt enough from doing the changes on the facebook tab. Currently my understanding of manila isn't quite good enough to tackle this yet, it's a big job particularly when the manila code isn't that easy to work with when there is no api.
The concept here is to make a basic tab where the content can be defined by a normal windows mobile app. This should allow many more tabs to be created, without specialist knowledge of manila code.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Something similar to this, but populated by an external app.
3. Manila/Sense Kitchen GUI
The group still needs someone to help kick off the project with some help in building the basic framework for the application. I really hope that this can be achieved, moving the whole process into a graphical app will really help with dealing with the difficult editing of the manila files particularly when defining the graphical components.
Please feel free to give feedback on what you think about my plans. Also if you want to get started on some simple(ish) stuff, there's bits in my tutorials etc.
Ok, trying to get a working development environment for windows mobile, is quite difficult if you don't have a full copy of Visual Studio. For now I will use a trial version, but after I'll post/link to tutorials on how to do it without Visual Studio and some initial steps for Windows Mobile development.
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/mobile/WiMoSansVS.aspx Is a good starting point...
Hi everyone,
Thanks for filling in the poll. There are plenty on here who would like to know how to get started etc with manila, windows mobile development etc.
Short of writing a "how to" which covers everything, which I don't have time to do at the moment, what do people need/want to know to get them started???
This thread can be a simple Q&A section if people need help with the initial steps...
I would love to help but I have too much going on for now :/
This thread may not get noticed but since I started it to talk about and get developer interests I will post here anyway.
Since I've released the latest version of the facebook tab I have started work on my 2nd Tab Project. (Still developing the facebook tab v2.0 too).
The new tab will work along the same lines as Custom Manila Interface Tab concept but for now I have a specific application in mind. Hopefully we can keep this one open and the basis of the tab can be extended and reused to form other tabs working on the same principles.
So what do I need?
Well I have the very basics of the tab working, so I need some windows mobile developers to assist with creating a supporting app which will feed the data to the tab. They will need to handle xml data and potentially HTTP GET requests (I guess), we can go as fast or as slow with it depending on the developer(s) (I've got some ideas on how to start off slowly just like I did with the facebook tab, so beginners would be able to do it, they just need time and willingness to learn). I might start writing it myself but my time is limited and it would be nice to have this tab open to everyone (unfortunately I get too attached to my code/ideas when I've been working on them too long so want to avoid getting in too deep with that part - that is what happened with the FbTab).
What is it?
Not quite ready to announce what the tab will be but I've carefully chosen a good project.
What now?
PM or post here and I'll get back to you.
I'm not sure yet how this will work, but probably create a google code project so that anyone can contribute. Will create a developer thread for the project and once things are up and running a release thread to handle the releases/support etc.
Ideally, this project will be open as possible and allow new developers to have a go. There is plenty which can be done, by all ranges of skill levels. It would be excellent to have a wiki attached to the project which explains how it is put together etc, would be great to provide a stepping stone for future developers to get working with windows mobile and sense.
Also need suggestions on where to host the project, GoogleCode, CodePlex etc require change management software which I'd like to avoid. Perhaps something like 4shared maybe or dropbox?
wow
wow very good.
New to Winmo developement, but willing to seriously learn
meltwater,
I am new to the Winmo developement, but am taking it up in a serious manner. I am willing to take on new tasks with some support. I have the full version of Visual Studio 2010 and can allocate alot of time currently to any projects that you are looking for. Again, I would need to have some support, or be pointed in the right direction, but am very willing to assist. I will do what research I can and ramp up to begin as soon as possible.
One note..I am currently enrolled in school for programming, part of the cloud of programmers that work with Microsoft through VS 2010, and am working to become more proficiant with the WinMo SDK.
Can I help?
Mxdadevolper said:
meltwater,
I am new to the Winmo developement, but am taking it up in a serious manner. I am willing to take on new tasks with some support. I have the full version of Visual Studio 2010 and can allocate alot of time currently to any projects that you are looking for. Again, I would need to have some support, or be pointed in the right direction, but am very willing to assist. I will do what research I can and ramp up to begin as soon as possible.
One note..I am currently enrolled in school for programming, part of the cloud of programmers that work with Microsoft through VS 2010, and am working to become more proficiant with the WinMo SDK.
Can I help?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That sounds perfect, just the sort of thing I'm after.
I'm no where near being expert anyway, as I've mentioned a few times, the facebook tab is my 2nd windows mobile app, the 1st being "hello worlde", however I've learned tons doing it and I think it's not too bad (a lot of it is still unreleased). I have a long background in embedded software though.
One thing, visual studio 2010 is no good for windows mobile development, it only supports windows phone 7 not windows mobile (MS killing WM dev much?). Fortunately you might be able to get a FREE student licence via MS Dreamspark, although sounds like they might be able to provide what you need. The work I am doing is in C#.
I put together a little of the support code for the tab last night and the concept appears to work fine. I'll start up a project thread soon, still trying to work out what is the best place to hold/manage the code, want to avoid change management systems:
I don't want to install extra software to handle it
It creates an extra barrier to people having a try
This means codeplex, sourceforge and gogglecode aren't suitable. At the moment 4shared seems like a good choice (simple online storage area) or DropBox which I also use (which could be easiest).
Opened up the developer thread, project details will come soon.
meltwater said:
That sounds perfect, just the sort of thing I'm after.
I'm no where near being expert anyway, as I've mentioned a few times, the facebook tab is my 2nd windows mobile app, the 1st being "hello worlde", however I've learned tons doing it and I think it's not too bad (a lot of it is still unreleased). I have a long background in embedded software though.
One thing, visual studio 2010 is no good for windows mobile development, it only supports windows phone 7 not windows mobile (MS killing WM dev much?). Fortunately you might be able to get a FREE student licence via MS Dreamspark, although sounds like they might be able to provide what you need. The work I am doing is in C#.
I put together a little of the support code for the tab last night and the concept appears to work fine. I'll start up a project thread soon, still trying to work out what is the best place to hold/manage the code, want to avoid change management systems:
I don't want to install extra software to handle it
It creates an extra barrier to people having a try
This means codeplex, sourceforge and gogglecode aren't suitable. At the moment 4shared seems like a good choice (simple online storage area) or DropBox which I also use (which could be easiest).
Opened up the developer thread, project details will come soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds Great!! I'll be looking for the thread and details. I also have been working in C#, so I think that we'll learn alot together.
Count me in... can supplement SenseSDK if needed!
Ed
eboelzner said:
Count me in... can supplement SenseSDK if needed!
Ed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hopefully a lot of the new tab will be within sense itself with a hidden support app to drive it, although later on it will probably use the SDK for configuring and managing things. Although that is only a rough idea at the moment. (will send you some details - will update the dev thread tomorrow and announce the project).
However, the facebook tab v2.0 is attempting to make extensive use of your sense SDK and greenhacks extended controls. I've currently pushed my ability to the limit with the interface though, hopefully when greenhack releases the latest extended controls I can fill in some of the missing holes. Still experimenting with the GUI aspects and possible concepts for how it should work. Will have think about the GUI again, there are a few areas which I've not quite been able to do what I was aiming for, which the Sense SDK might be modded to achieve.
I'm kinda aware though that a lot of the effort to implement the features for the facebook tab v2.0 will already be done by the Xda Facebook app being produced (so eventually we may tie it in to the tab after v2.0). The new project will hopefully help me expand what I can do with sense and allow better integration of apps.
New RSS Tab project is GO GO GO
[MOD][SENSE2.5TAB] RSSTab - Developer Thread
Thread has all the files ready to go, just not sure what people are waiting for...is it that scary?
Really?
meltwater said:
Also need suggestions on where to host the project, GoogleCode, CodePlex etc require change management software which I'd like to avoid. Perhaps something like 4shared maybe or dropbox?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why on earth would you want to avoid Source-code Version Control? SVN, GIT, and even CVS are an absolute God-send to any development group. i can see one or two pro's to avoiding it if you're the only developer on the team, but any more than 1 dev contributing code to a project turns it into a nightmare without a SVC ...
phalacee said:
Why on earth would you want to avoid Source-code Version Control? SVN, GIT, and even CVS are an absolute God-send to any development group. i can see one or two pro's to avoiding it if you're the only developer on the team, but any more than 1 dev contributing code to a project turns it into a nightmare without a SVC ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well can't that be handled by a decent web-based on which does it on the server side?
I know you are totally right, version control is very important (I've used many on a professional basis), but do I really need to force all the developers (and myself) to install full SVN programs?
I was hoping there would be a web based version control system which allows you to check in/out files purely using a web browser.
Any suggestions would be appreciated...I've only used closed corporate solutions before so new to open-source.
CVS idea
Guys,
Can we use CodeBeamer for something like this? From what I'm reading this might allow us the versioning control. It could be downloaded for free for up to 6 users.
Any thoughts?
Here's the link for the version that I was thinking of.
http://www.intland.com/products/cb-mr/overview.html
Source: pocketnow.com
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
As Chuong reported earlier today, a handful of tech reviewers have gotten to spend a couple of weeks with a Windows Phone 7 prototype devices made by Samsung called the Taylor. Overall the sentiment towards Windows Phone 7 is positive: reviewers agree that the operating system is generally well thought out, that it performs very well (with nearly no lag when jumping around the operating system), and that it has the potential to be a true contender in the mobile platform space.
After digging through several of these reviews, it's clear that there are a handful of features still missing from Windows Phone 7, some of which will be addressed by the time the platform launches this fall, but many of which will not. Here's a list:
- No Twitter integration
- No copy and paste
- No third-party multitasking
- No Flash, Silverlight, or HTML5 support in the browser
- No dedicated YouTube application
- No robust document editing capabilities in Office
- No way to stop Facebook contacts from mixing with global contacts
- No global email inbox
- No threaded email
- No organization of the full program list (it's alphabetical)
- No way of knowing if a long press is available
- No universal search
Some of these aren't too big of a deal and are very specific to use case scenarios that not everyone will experience (like adding multiple email accounts to a phone, etc). But some of the big ones like the lack of multitasking and Twitter integration could provide a reason for potential buyers to go with another smartphone platform.
ATHiEST said:
- No way to stop Facebook contacts from mixing with global contacts
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can do it relatively easily if you don't use Facebook directly but via Live, I think.
My 2 cents:
- No Twitter integration
Stupid when Facebook is there
- No copy and paste
Discussed so many times yet still unbelievable.
- No third-party multitasking
May be in the future?
- No Flash, Silverlight, or HTML5 support in the browser
Very bad indeed.
- No dedicated YouTube application
Will be I believe.
- No robust document editing capabilities in Office
Crazy.
- No way to stop Facebook contacts from mixing with global contacts
That will be a really annoying thing. What if I DON'T have Facebook??!!
- No global email inbox
??
- No threaded email
I don't care.
- No organization of the full program list (it's alphabetical)
Again a stupid, strange step BACKWARDS
- No way of knowing if a long press is available
Hmmm....
- No universal search
Awesome :-(
To sum it up, well....
I have to touch it of course.
But comparing this to WM 6.5 I see the main change will be interface itself.
Regarding functionality - so many things missing as hell.
yup, W7 is looking like a bag of sh*t
ATHiEST said:
- No Twitter integration
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's already several Twitter apps for WP7 - The notification system allows seamlessly integration.
ATHiEST said:
- No copy and paste
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the 2000 other threads on this -- c&p is pointless, and not needed. I'm tired of repeating the arguments in every bloody thread.
ATHiEST said:
- No third-party multitasking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same as above.
ATHiEST said:
- No Flash, Silverlight, or HTML5 support in the browser
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong. No HTML5 support, mainly because it's still a draft.
ATHiEST said:
- No dedicated YouTube application
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Write one, or let Google do that. I don't think Google would like Microsoft to write one for sure.
ATHiEST said:
- No robust document editing capabilities in Office
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Invalid. Better Office integration than any other phone on the market.
ATHiEST said:
- No way to stop Facebook contacts from mixing with global contacts
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Invalid, as there's no public phones out, you can't know this, thus it's a lie.
ATHiEST said:
- No global email inbox
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong
ATHiEST said:
- No threaded email
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The email application ain't done yet, where's your proof?
ATHiEST said:
- No organization of the full program list (it's alphabetical)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use the search-button
ATHiEST said:
- No way of knowing if a long press is available
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neither is on any other phone in the world.
ATHiEST said:
- No universal search
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uniform search-api and seach-button support for all applications. Universal makes little sense.
ATHiEST said:
Some of these aren't too big of a deal and are very specific to use case scenarios that not everyone will experience (like adding multiple email accounts to a phone, etc). But some of the big ones like the lack of multitasking and Twitter integration could provide a reason for potential buyers to go with another smartphone platform.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Multitasking is the LEAST important problem. When do you fools start realizing this?
And again, Twitter is just yet-another-application. Android and iPhone don't have Twitter support either, there's just 20 different Twitter apps for each platform.
@Windcape
As well as you have great valid points,
I must say that this of your sentence:
"c&p is pointless, and not needed. I'm tired of repeating the arguments in every bloody thread."
Where did you get that?!
It's a CRUICAL feature on any device.
Maybe you're this person who don't use it, maybe you never do
any serious stuff on your device, but why do you spread here such a false and pointlesss information?! It's the same as you'd say that a phone doesn't need a speaker.
It's the basic function, present on any mobile OS since 2000,
and also supported even by those who wanted to omit it and tell people they know better.
It's a BASIC function with any txt work, whether it's office, mail.
Man, how hard is it to get it? Or what false logic brought you to this senseless conclusion?
I hope you'll never be responsible for any serious development with such false statements.
No, it's not a crucial feature. The navigation-handlers allows for much better transitions than using c&p.
A smartphone is not a PC -- People use it differently, and copy&paste doesn't make sense. A lot of you might think it's easy to implement for text, and partially is (WP7 only supports Unicode, there's your first challenge), but for random objects (images, binary, etc.) it's a completely other story.
Instead of just repeating yet another "omg no copy&paste", then perhaps read some of the lengthy discussions about the subject, instead of believing in it in blind faith.
I would ask the relevant user groups, and have their reaction. Nerds who think they need c&p, but actually never use it, are not a relevant user group. Ask people who got a iPhone or Android if they uses copy&paste often, or if they missed it on previous versions of the iPhone. They'll probably say no.
Hell, where I need it most is in my browser, and Android's default browser have such terrible support, that it doesn't work anyway. I'd rather have a navigation-handler auto-converting emails to click-to-open-email-application links.
This argument is getting tiresome. Can we move on to something else? Like complaining about lack of socket APIs and SL4 support?
Windcape - some of those are legit. There is no way to downselect your FB friends, no threaded email, and no unified/global email inbox. See the many reviews for evidence. While it's not quite done, it's pretty darn close. They have to give the OEMs lead time in order to be able to manufacture devices with the RTM code on it.
But to the OP et al, see this post on WMPowerUsers which echos my sentiments very closely. Basically, calm down... take a deep breath.
Windcape said:
No, it's not a crucial feature. The navigation-handlers allows for much better transitions than using c&p.
A smartphone is not a PC -- People use it differently, and copy&paste doesn't make sense. A lot of you might think it's easy to implement for text, and partially is (WP7 only supports Unicode, there's your first challenge), but for random objects (images, binary, etc.) it's a completely other story.
Instead of just repeating yet another "omg no copy&paste", then perhaps read some of the lengthy discussions about the subject, instead of believing in it in blind faith.
I would ask the relevant user groups, and have their reaction. Nerds who think they need c&p, but actually never use it, are not a relevant user group. Ask people who got a iPhone or Android if they uses copy&paste often, or if they missed it on previous versions of the iPhone. They'll probably say no.
Hell, where I need it most is in my browser, and Android's default browser have such terrible support, that it doesn't work anyway. I'd rather have a navigation-handler auto-converting emails to click-to-open-email-application links.
This argument is getting tiresome. Can we move on to something else? Like complaining about lack of socket APIs and SL4 support?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Listen, are you reading with comprehension?!
Who gave you the right to call me nerd huh?
I think you're rather nerd who doesn't really speak on the topic.
Don't tell me or anybody else how we actually use our devices!
How do you know? Have we met?
You're incompetent troll, like somebody else stated in other thread.
Maybe go to other forums instead of telling complete lies here.
Also your sentence:
"I'd rather have a navigation-handler auto-converting emails to click-to-open-email-application links."
Has NOTHING to do with work on txt!
Please move away from here with your "maybe" and "probably".
If it's actually based on hands-on reviews, then I'll agree it might be considered a problem.
The thing is, half of the articles out there complaining about the phone, is basing it off data from Feburary/March, or unlocked emulators -- both I consider highly invalid.
And I'm calm, I'm just annoyed we got 50 threads with focus on multitasking and c&p, which is the most irrelevant problems there is from a developer perspective.
I find it much bigger issues that the phone only support Unicode, don't have socket APIs yet (because it runs SL2/SL3, and not SL4). And a few other things here and there which is vital to application development.
People keep nitpicking about the least important issues, which sadly removes focus from the important problems.
doministry said:
Listen, are you reading with comprehension?!
Who gave you the right to call me nerd huh?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We're posting on a forum for mobile hackers, that means we're nerds
doministry said:
Don't tell me or anybody else how we actually use our devices! How do you know? Have we met?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's more likely that technical interested people focus on more technical features.
Most people who buy a iPhone 4 don't buy it because it can do copy&paste, but because it looks awesome, and have a fantastic screen (Retina Display).
doministry said:
"I'd rather have a navigation-handler auto-converting emails to click-to-open-email-application links."
Has NOTHING to do with work on txt!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It have everything to do with regular phone use. Copying links, email addresses and phone numbers.
The phone isn't meant to be a Blackberry replacement, or a notepad replacement for editing Excel spreadsheets on the run.
One last thing:
You can implement copy&paste internally in your application. It's just c&p data between applications that's not supported.
I guess that helps a lot for your office/spreadsheeting edition, no?
ATHiEST said:
- No Twitter integration
- No copy and paste
- No third-party multitasking
- No Flash, Silverlight, or HTML5 support in the browser
- No dedicated YouTube application
- No robust document editing capabilities in Office
- No way to stop Facebook contacts from mixing with global contacts
- No global email inbox
- No threaded email
- No organization of the full program list (it's alphabetical)
- No way of knowing if a long press is available
- No universal search
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- Twitter will be back working with Windows Live soon. Twitter changed their APIs a month or two ago, and Microsoft need to update things to make it work again.
- Copy and Paste is coming in a future update
- Multitasking is also planned to be out in a future update
- Flash is coming in a few months after launch, Silverlight we don't know about
- We may see a YouTube app come from Google after launch, if not flash will work in the browser so that's all good
- As a start, the Office tools on Windows Phone 7 are good for basic editing, and collaboration. More features may come, but I do question if you need much more really, with such a small screen.
- We know when adding a Google account, you can choose to add all or only some of these options: Contacts, Calendar, Email. It is possible facebook integration can be done in the same way, but I don't use facebook, so I am not too fussed. However thanks to the Quick Jump List controls, you can click the letter in the blue box, and choose a letter to find your contact. Or even press the search button to find a contact.
- I actually prefer the idea of having a separation between my Live Mail and Outlook Email inboxes, and is a great way to maintain your work life balance if you are using the Phone for work, and personal uses. You do have a combined calendar, which does make sense, because you only have on schedule at a time
- Threaded mail, or conversation view, will be coming, you should know this as Outlook and Hotmail now support it.
- This one I agree with, I would like a button appear below the arrow on the left, to switch to flat list, category, favourites, or alphabetical sorting, using the Quick Jump Lists.
- Well, this is a trial and error thing, you don't get told when you have a right click menu available, there is no indicator, you just expect it and find it for yourself.
- If the Hub/App doesn't have internal search, the search button will pull up bing. In future dev tools, they will provide an API to override the search button as you can the back button presently. Patience, my friend, Patience!
Windcape said:
c&p is pointless, and not needed. I'm tired of repeating the arguments in every bloody thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windcape said:
Write one, or let Google do that. I don't think Google would like Microsoft to write one for sure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, these two statements contradict each other somewhat. By far the two most often reasons for me to watch a video on Youtube are a) watching embedded videos on web sites and b) getting a link in an email. Now, pray tell, how am I going to watch those videos in a third party application in a sandboxed environment without a way to open a URL directly in this application or without an ability to copy and paste this URL there? Let's say on many web sites I can search for the video if it's properly named, but what about this link in an email? Am I supposed to memorize it and type into the app? Or maybe write it down on a piece of paper?
I would certainly prefer it if links to videos opened directly in this Youtube app (or better yet, a standalone flash/video/html5/whatever player), that would be a "smartlinking" scenario that I would prefer to c&p. But that's not available either. C&P may be a kludge, but in the less than perfect world we live in those are often needed.
Windcape said:
And again, Twitter is just yet-another-application. Android and iPhone don't have Twitter support either, there's just 20 different Twitter apps for each platform.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now let's be consistent please. If we like the way data from multiple sources is integrated in WP7, a Twitter app isn't a perfect solution.
Twitter will be there though. It will be supported in Windows Live or separately. It's missing temporarily in the current version as Twitter changed their API or something like that.
@Windcape
Are you a tard??
a) I didn't write the review so stop quoting me as if I wrote the list and the trying to contradict me.
b) Dont need copy and paste? are you on crack? You must be because I can see endless list or reasons why its a MUST!
c) The review is NOT from a emulator its a HANDS ON review of a prototype phone!
Also people remember this isnt a list of what will NOT be in WP7, its basically a round up of features currently still not in WP7, OBVIOUSLY its not finished and will have more to come.
Either way I still think the OS looks like sh*t, But the flashaholic in me will still end up flashing it to my HD2 when/if its ported.
a) It's easier to quote you to respond to the points. Why is that a problem? Wasn't the whole point with quoting the important points of the article to turn them into a discussion?
b) No, and there's little reason to be rude.
c) O'rly
vangrieg said:
Now, pray tell, how am I going to watch those videos in a third party application in a sandboxed environment without a way to open a URL directly in this application
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A 3rd party application will be able to register a navigation handler so you can open youtube links in a youtube application if necessary. Just like Skype plugin for PC browsers today.
vangrieg said:
but what about this link in an email? Am I supposed to memorize it and type into the app?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Navigation handlers will also apply to emails.
Basically you'll just have to click it. Much easier than copy, change application, paste, and activate it.
vangrieg said:
that would be a "smartlinking" scenario that I would prefer to c&p. But that's not available either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it is? That's how it's intended to be, and why Microsoft don't consider c&p a priority atm.
vangrieg said:
Now let's be consistent please. If we like the way data from multiple sources is integrated in WP7, a Twitter app isn't a perfect solution.
Twitter will be there though. It will be supported in Windows Live or separately. It's missing temporarily in the current version as Twitter changed their API or something like that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, on the "other" mobile platforms Twitter is just yet-another-application. If Microsoft integrates it in Windows Live, it's just better than the others.
It's not a loss either way.
Windcape said:
A 3rd party application will be able to register a navigation handler so you can open youtube links in a youtube application if necessary. Just like Skype plugin for PC browsers today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That would solve the problem indeed, but could you provide a source for this information? This is the first time I hear about a way for a third party application to meddle with IE/mail client behavior in WP7, and when I asked Brandon Watson he said nothing like that would be possible.
Dude, there is a edit button, no need to keep double posting. Oh and YES "rly", read the topic.
btw, what about copy and pasting files?, or even blocks of txt's like in a document or web page for example or am I missing something here, that seems a pretty simple but integral part of windows to me, ffs this isnt apple its windows.
Applications have access to the internet, and files on the internet, it just cannot run in the background or access local files outside of its own local isolated storage. (unless there is a task, launcher, or chooser available to apps)
Native Twitter feeds will be coming soon, Windows Live had it until Twitter changed some APIs, and it will be brought back.
Microsoft have not said Copy & Paste is not a priority, only that in order to get the phone out in time for an Autumn/Winter release, and that it will be coming soon.
*** EDIT ***
Please click THIS link (then click the I need an answer button) to ask Microsoft to resolve this issue
*** EDIT ***
People love to say that we should all give Microsoft a break. WP7 is new, they are releasing improvements.
Yes, this may be true for silly things like copy-paste and multi-tasking. These will be coming in the future. woot.
The real issue are the features that will never be coming because Microsoft have decided we're all too stupid to ever have a need for them.
Allowing users to manage their own file system is a major one and has vast implications. I don't think Microsoft will ever open up the file system because they haven't designed it as a file system that is ever meant to be accessed by users.
We've all heard that this means you wont be able to get certain file types onto your phone throuigh any means other than email or download.
We all understand by now that we will never be able to use the phone as a portable storage device.
What most users don't understand though is this:
If you have ebooks/comics on your computer, you will most likely never be able to read them on your device.
Instead: you will have install an application that will make you re-purchase them from the internet. There are some ebook readers that will allow you to download free eboks from places like project Gutenberg, so we'll all have to either enjoy reading Black Beauty and anything else that was written before 1950, or we will have to re-purchase books we already own. The same will go for your cbz/cbr files.
Does this sound like a money making racket to you? It does to me!
You will never get a 3rd party application that can load external files (that aren't images) - Hoping for a hiking app that can load those GPX routes you have on your harddrive? - You're better off getting an android.
You will never be able to swap out memory cards. You will never be able to upgrade your phones storage (unless you format it and start again)
You will not have a computer in your pocket. You will have a powerful brick that has been severely cripled. Thankyou Microsoft
There is some hope. Microsoft could create a shared space/partition on the phone that allows users to manage the files within, and allows applications to access it. This could be done while still keeping the rest of the areas in the phone secure. As developers we need to petition Microsoft to allow the platform to become as powerful as we need it to be.
We don't want another Kin.
We want an ultra-portable computer that is simple and easy to use when it needs to be, but is also powerful and flexible at other times as well.
If you care about the future of this platform, please go to this forum and petition Microsoft to not forget about us power users and to build flexibility into the platform
AceofSpades25 said:
We want an ultra-portable computer that is simple and easy to use when it needs to be, but is also powerful and flexible at other times as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why not just buy a device running an OS that gives you these things already? All the "power users" on WM didnt stop its failure, so I dont see MS caring too much about that demographic.
efjay said:
Why not just buy a device running an OS that gives you these things already? All the "power users" on WM didnt stop its failure, so I dont see MS caring too much about that demographic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because my new work phone has to run WP7. No choice there. I am a software engineer and it is being seen as the business phone of the future.
Also, it is a joy developing for Microsoft platforms. Using managed code in visual studio envoronments is heaven. I don't think I could be bothered to write using the low level code needed for Android.
So I want to develop for WP7, but I also Microsoft to open it up and make it more powerful
People keep going back and forth about things like copy&paste or multitasking but hardly anybody understands what really matters.
People just don't get what "file system access" means. They're either too lazy to think about it or not intelligent enough.
It's not about digging through folders. No "normal" user wants to do that. It's about ease of use, which is important to everyone.
The lack of file system access makes the user experience a nightmare. Not because you can't dig through folders, but because you cant just copy a file like an ebook to the phone and read it there. Instead, you will need complicated workarounds like emailing files to yourself.
Other things will even remain impossible.
FINALLY someone who understands what really matters.
AceofSpades25 said:
People love to say that we should all give Microsoft a break. WP7 is new, they are releasing improvements.
Yes, this may be true for silly things like copy-paste and multi-tasking. These will be coming in the future. woot.
The real issue are the features that will never be coming because Microsoft have decided we're all too stupid to ever have a need for them.
Allowing users to manage their own file system is a major one and has vast implications. I don't think Microsoft will ever open up the file system because they haven't designed it as a file system that is ever meant to be accessed by users.
We've all heard that this means you wont be able to get certain file types onto your phone throuigh any means other than email or download.
We all understand by now that we will never be able to use the phone as a portable storage device.
What most users don't understand though is this:
If you have ebooks/comics on your computer, you will most likely never be able to read them on your device.
Instead: you will have install an application that will make you re-purchase them from the internet. There are some ebook readers that will allow you to download free eboks from places like project Gutenberg, so we'll all have to either enjoy reading Black Beauty and anything else that was written before 1950, or we will have to re-purchase books we already own. The same will go for your cbz/cbr files.
Does this sound like a money making racket to you? It does to me!
You will never get a 3rd party application that can load external files (that aren't images) - Hoping for a hiking app that can load those GPX routes you have on your harddrive? - You're better off getting an android.
You will never be able to swap out memory cards. You will never be able to upgrade your phones storage (unless you format it and start again)
You will not have a computer in your pocket. You will have a powerful brick that has been severely cripled. Thankyou Microsoft
There is some hope. Microsoft could create a shared space/partition on the phone that allows users to manage the files within, and allows applications to access it. This could be done while still keeping the rest of the areas in the phone secure. As developers we need to petition Microsoft to allow the platform to become as powerful as we need it to be.
We don't want another Kin.
We want an ultra-portable computer that is simple and easy to use when it needs to be, but is also powerful and flexible at other times as well.
If you care about the future of this platform, please go to this forum and petition Microsoft to not forget about us power users and to build flexibility into the platform
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
once u get file system root access, u can change alot of things
but since i'm not going to go there anymore (winmo is enough lol), i would just prefer ms lets us have a simple windows explorer that blocks out the system files.
i'm not interested in dissecting your DLLs just to take a look, i just want to get my files, whatever file it is, INTO THE PHONE!
The biggest problem with WP7:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Sad thing is people are willing to accept mediocrity. They're best solution to everything WP7 is to say , its coming. Or they down play another OS.
crow26 said:
The biggest problem with WP7:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Archives?? (e.g. rar/zip/ace etc.)
Game save files??
Bluetooth??
FTP Managers??
Download utilities??
Torrents??
vetvito said:
Sad thing is people are willing to accept mediocrity. They're best solution to everything WP7 is to say , its coming. Or they down play another OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Completely agree!
vetvito said:
Sad thing is people are willing to accept mediocrity. They're best solution to everything WP7 is to say , its coming. Or they down play another OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In this case, you can't even say it's coming. This is the single biggest problem with WP7, it makes the OS all but useless and it will never be solved, because it's all about protecting copyrighted content. They don't care that the user experience is a nightmare, as long as they can lock down their content.
That's why closed systems suck.
You know how easy it is to copy or sync anything (!!!) to an Android phone? A breeze. And you get the choice! A simple drag&drop? Or do you prefer a sync software like Windows Media Player? You have more than one computer that you want to sync with? No problem. The open OS does it and it's incredibly easy and user friendly.
Microsoft must change their policies before it's too late. We don't want another Apple.
I can't believe that this arguement is still going.
We had all of this when they first announced WP7. Have people not done their research?!?!?
It sounds to me like you're all expecting too much from an OS designed FOR THE MASSES not people as technical as us.
Windows Embedded Compact (7) was announded at the same time but people seem to have forgotton about that. IT is designed for people like us...well enterprise mainly. Allowing file system access, installation of 3rd party apps etc and also having some of the features of WP7.
Here's some past links:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=705248
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=706387
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/products/windowsce/compact7.mspx
crow26 said:
In this case, you can't even say it's coming. This is the single biggest problem with WP7, it makes the OS all but useless and it will never be solved, because it's all about protecting copyrighted content. They don't care that the user experience is a nightmare, as long as they can lock down their content.
That's why closed systems suck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nows the right time for the dev community to petition Microsoft. They have a forum for this and they *say* they are listening to our feedback.
Just like the Android developers did, if there are enough of us asking for it, they will have to listen.
http://forums.create.msdn.com/forums/98.aspx
@welki1979
You don't get it.
It's not about digging through folders. No "normal" user wants to do that. It's about ease of use, which is important to everyone.
The lack of file system access makes the user experience a nightmare. Not because you can't dig through folders, but because you cant just copy a file like an ebook to the phone and read it there. Instead, you will need complicated workarounds like emailing files to yourself.
Other things will even remain impossible.
"The masses" don't want to jailbreak their phones. They don't want complex workarounds. They just want their stuff on the phone, but WP7 doesn't let them!
File system access is NOT a "pro" feature! It's a feature for "the masses", because it makes the phone easier to use.
welki1979 said:
I can't believe that this arguement is still going.
We had all of this when they first announced WP7. Have people not done their research?!?!?
It sounds to me like you're all expecting too much from an OS designed FOR THE MASSES not people as technical as us.
Windows Embedded Compact (7) was announded at the same time but people seem to have forgotton about that. IT is designed for people like us...well enterprise mainly. Allowing file system access, installation of 3rd party apps etc and also having some of the features of WP7.
Here's some past links:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=705248
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=706387
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/products/windowsce/compact7.mspx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Welki... it does not complicate the UI or make the phone any more difficult to use to allow the user the *option* of managing their file system if they choose to do so.
You say we should use WEC, but where are all the great devices that run it. We don't want a full blown version of windows on a device, we want something sexy and finger friendly (like WP7) that is powerful and unlimited at the same time.
This isnt too much to ask for, it could be done easily by MS
AceofSpades25 said:
Welki... it does not complicate the UI or make the phone any more difficult to use to allow the user the *option* of managing their file system if they choose to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not even about managing files. Just look at Android: You never have to dig through folders and arrange files. The OS does everything for you.
(of course you have the option to do it, but that's not the point here)
On Android, it doesn't matter where the files are located on the phone. What does matter is how easy it is to put them onto the phone.
That's why file system access is important. Android makes it incredibly easy to put any content onto the phone, because it allows file system access and does the job of indexing the files for you.
"Normal" users don't want to dig through folders. But they want their content on the phone and they don't want silly workarounds like emailing files to themselves, just because the phone doesn't allow file system access.
crow26 said:
It's not even about managing files. Just look at Android: You never have to dig through folders and arrange files. The OS does everything for you.
(of course you have the option to do it, but that's not the point here)
On Android, it doesn't matter where the files are located on the phone. What does matter is how easy it is to put them onto the phone.
That's why file system access is important. Android makes it incredibly easy to put any content onto the phone, because it allows file system access and does the job of indexing the files for you.
"Normal" users don't want to dig through folders. But they want their content on the phone and they don't want silly workarounds like emailing files to themselves, just because the phone doesn't allow file system access.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
when you say "normal" users are you speaking of the the majority or the few who are on xda. because ios has never allowed file access and where is it today?
I am speaking about the majority. Those who don't want silly workarounds. Those who just want their phone to work.
I don't know whether you've ever used an iPhone, but the lack of file system has in fact created huge issues there. Every time you download an app you have to figure out how the f*ck to get the content onto the phone, because the ***** phone doesn't allow file system access and ***** iTunes doesn't support the files you want.
"Normal" people don't want that. They don't want to figure out how to put the content onto the phone every time they download a new app. They just want it to work.
Apple and Microsoft don't care about the users. They just want to protect their copyrighted music and videos, that's why the don't allow users to touch the files on the device. They don't give a ***** about the users.
With an Android phone, no matter what content you want to put onto the phone, you just drag&drop it there and you're done. Everyone knows how to do that, because everyone knows how to use USB flash drives.
Or if you want to download a document from the web, you just click "download" and you're done. It's immediately there in all the apps that are associated with that document (e.g. Adobe Reader), because Android does everything for you. It's incredibly simple.
You can't do that with an iPhone or WP7 phone.
rruffman said:
when you say "normal" users are you speaking of the the majority or the few who are on xda. because ios has never allowed file access and where is it today?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are a lot of people that jail break ios precisely because of this.
It is popular, because they got the UI right at a time when there were no better options. Because of this, loads of developers got on board, with so many devs, the app concept became the bigest driver for iPhone sales.
If IOS had allowed file access, it would only be in a stronger position. As it is, many technical users hate the platform because of this. It is starting to loose out to android because of this
Many people hate iOS for the lack of file system access. Not only technical users. It would have been a much bigger issue, but iOS had no competition in 2007/08, that's why people put up with the problem.
Today, there's a lot of competition and people aren't going to accept such issues, which make the user experience suck.
I would say this is probably down to developers.
iTunes for idevices does allow transfering of files, just not file system access. For example: programs like VLC...BUT vlc had to be approved by Apple and Apple allowed direct file transfering via iTunes.
This will probably come from MS with apps too. The feature is probably there but not without a suitable app for it....correction -- - "suitable APPROVED app" (that can plug into Zune)
Going on what you're saying 'normal users' would prefer this method...not file system access....like those with iPhones (seeing as it's easier to drag into iTunes/Zune than go through folders).
For the time being, there's also things like Dropbox which is used by a lot of people I know with iPhones and Android devices to transfer files....I have it on my iPad, and the link on my HD2 so I can transfer stuff (seeing as bluetooth transfers between apple and non-apple devices doesn't work)
Ive had so many apps that suck so bad, they are so buggy and barely work. Such as Opentable, podcast, and several others. Makes me weary to even purchase full apps even though you can try them. Most apps available suck anyways.
I need:
Best buy app
Chipotle app
Panera bread app
Good podcast app
Good radio app
Good turn by turn navigation app
Opentable that actually works
and im sure there are several apps that I would like to use but not yet available, marketplace is full of bull crap. lets get some stuff people will actually use on a daily basis.
This whole market place concept is a bust.. just because it worked for iphone dosent necessarily mean it will work for wp7. They said marketing stuff like 'oh we have 6000 applications in marketplace!' Reality is its not even worth except for more than 1-2 of them to even download and waste time on.
937dytboi said:
Ive had so many apps that suck so bad, they are so buggy and barely work. Such as Opentable, podcast, and several others. Makes me weary to even purchase full apps even though you can try them. Most apps available suck anyways.
I need:
Best buy app
Chipotle app
Panera bread app
Good podcast app
Good radio app
Good turn by turn navigation app
Opentable that actually works
and im sure there are several apps that I would like to use but not yet available, marketplace is full of bull crap. lets get some stuff people will actually use on a daily basis.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zune is great for podcasts. What do you want a podcast app to do? The Maps app has great TBT nav - no voice, though.
937dytboi said:
Good radio app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm going to guess you don't like the radio that's already in there.
This is the kind of thing that may suck on WP7 phones for a little while...but i expected that didnt you?
The iphone apps were all full of crap when they first came out....it took time for people to get used to making them, I think the promising thing is that big companies are starting to bother making apps, so it shows people are getting serious.
I read it in an article that MS is a software company and if theres anyone who is going to be able to make it work at this sort of 'late entry' into the market its them.
I have at least 12 APPS I really like and that I use all the time
I think we are just guna have to wait for a bit
The marketplace idea is not a bust.
Developers who want to earn money selling their apps and games have a better chance when all the customers are funneled to one place, as opposed to having to search obscure sites, to find their product.
At that point, it's up to the developer to try to make a compelling enough product for the customer to think it's worth purchasing.
For the customer, they could go to one place to look for anything that is currently available for their phone. They can try out any application without risk, and if they feel that the product is worthy, they can purchase it easily. The rules for purchasing each app/game will be universal. They don't have to go through different payment processes with different companies.
Purple11 said:
Reality is its not even worth except for more than 1-2 of them to even download and waste time on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This and more and more and more.
OP and hater beneath him, you're just being a little narrow minded tbh.
given that A LOT of the applications are data based, how is your network coverage? is it quite patchy? if so, this would explain why a lot of applications appear very bad constantly not responding/loading data.
as for the market place, i think it's a bit of a good and bad thing. the iPhone model is good for itself, but WP can't copy it completely because of the differences it has. for example, WP offers in app trial mode. this needs to be made more promonent and needs to encourage the end user that these apps work as a trial. with this, then more people who list their apps as a paid app would get better usage as people don't instantly think they have to pay anything to use it.
i personally don't buy any app unless i get a bit of a play with the app first. but the problem is, i have to go to each app to see if it has trial available. the market place needs to adjust to this variable in greater force because it's actually what makes the WP market place a great prospect and cancels out the duplicates which you see in the iOS market place (the free and paid version of apps).
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Other than Adobe Reader all other software you mentioned are useless to me. I am a smartphone user, not an Iphone user.
Oookayyy... so what do you want then?
zukа said:
Oookayyy... so what do you want then?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better: Calendar, Appointments, Time Management, Alarm, Wallet, Book Keeping, Expense Records, Maps, Navigation, SMS/Mail Organizing, Dialer, Auto-Call Record, Call Management, Data Management etc etc you should get an idea ..
Purple11 said:
Better: Calendar, Appointments, Time Management, Alarm, Wallet, Book Keeping, Expense Records, Maps, Navigation, SMS/Mail Organizing, Dialer, Auto-Call Record, Call Management, Data Management etc etc you should get an idea ..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of which is part of the core OS - now if all you want are better implementations of the above, feel free to discuss what, specifically, needs fixing in the core experience.
If you ask me, the calendar, appointments, time management, alarms and email are all working fine out of the box - sure, we need better exchange support (server search etc), but it does what it's supposed to for now.
As for Book Keeping / Expense Records (why are you listing both?) - there are apps for this.
Bing Maps is included out of the box. Navigation may be poor, but there are apps for this that help somewhat.
In any case - if you need enterprise features like what you've listed above you're really not part of the target audience for WP7 at the moment. Something which has been very clear ever since the February unveiling of WP7 last year.
emigrating said:
Really? So which one or two out of the following do you feel is worth downloading?
Twitter
Facebook
Youtube
Microsoft Tag Reader
Adobe Reader
Shazam
IGN
IMDb
eBay
Flixter
These are just some of the apps I couldn't live without - however, if you manage to witter it down to 1 or 2 I'll post an updated list of all my "important" apps. Although, IMO, 99% of people would have maxed their 2 apps from the top 5 in the list above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See we are just two different people, KI dont have a twitter or Facebook account. So thats useless to me, Shazam I wont really use. But everything on your list is fine. My problem is that some apps that ive downloaded seem not to work like advertised and they crap out by running slow or not working at all. But I think im jumping the gun here, I just think we should have a better marketplace selection but I have to realize that the marketplace has just really opened to be honest. Just felt I needed to gripe about my experience
What's also a problem (for now) is that development for Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc. A lot of "normal" Windows / .NET developers are early adopters of the platform and are having their go at developing a Windows Phone app. Unfortunately they don't always consider the limitations that the platforms has. They'll use a lot of heavy animation, request huge amounts of data, use imagery not optimized for mobile use. Thus: crappy apps.
I think over time this will all settle and the apps will become better.
That said, Microsoft does need to increase the overall app performance on the phone. There's a noticable difference between the built-in (native) apps and the managed apps.
stringray said:
What's also a problem (for now) is that development for Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc. A lot of "normal" Windows / .NET developers are early adopters of the platform and are having their go at developing a Windows Phone app. Unfortunately they don't always consider the limitations that the platforms has. They'll use a lot of heavy animation, request huge amounts of data, use imagery not optimized for mobile use. Thus: crappy apps.
I think over time this will all settle and the apps will become better.
That said, Microsoft does need to increase the overall app performance on the phone. There's a noticable difference between the built-in (native) apps and the managed apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight! You would think the web designers who use that stuff can create better apps, guess not.
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
I remember going to Tech Days (microsoft developer conference) and hearing them bragging about how their app reviews ensured that only quality apps were released but lately the amount of **** apps that have been appearing on the app marketplace makes me think they are just auto approving anything without even checking to see if it works.
pillsburydoughman said:
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight! You would think the web designers who use that stuff can create better apps, guess not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zero windows applications use Silverlight. WPF maybe, but Silverlight is a web-only subset. What stringray actually said was:
Windows Phone is so similar to developing for regular Windows environments: same tools, same programming languages, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which is correct. Visual Studio is the primary development tool for desktop and C# is very popular development language for desktop.
The rest of what you said is probably true. But you can never test an app and say that it will never crash. Do you remember WM6.5 when you downloaded an app to find it didn't even launch on your device? Well at least it's filtering out all that crap
Silverlight is not only for web development. I believe since Silverlight 3.0 you can use them as desktop applications as well.
pillsburydoughman said:
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
Click to expand...
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How is the way you pay and get verified the reason why the apps are MS' fault?
Yea, they check them but rarely have I seen an app crash (actually I haven't yet but I'm not going to state that all of them have).
I just want to quickly point something to the ones you have hated apps.
Why don't you give feedback to developers? I have given serveral and emailed several feedback and have gotten a response each time. And each time, they take my feedback into consideration and either plan to implement them in the future.
As the end-user don't we want the best product? To get the best, we have to critique and help evolve the marketplace/apps. Only this way do developers know how to improve and what needs to be improved.
Otherwise they believe everything is dandy.
pillsburydoughman said:
this is blatantly false. First of all unless you're doing game programming you can only make Silverlight apps. Most regular windows applications do not use silverlight!
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Well, Silverlight development does resemble WPF programming a lot (afterall, it is a subset of WPF). And we've been doing WPF programming for years now, haven't we? Actually, if you stick to simply placing controls on a page and adding event code it resembles WinForms very much. And that last thing is what I see happening a lot. Many developers create some spaghetti app, which totally messes up tombstoning or page navigation.
Once developers get more comfortable with Windows Phone (Silverlight) programming, they'll see that things like the MVVM pattern, async processing , etc. actually do make sense and can be very helpful. And that's when the good apps are starting to get made.
Secondly the reason for crappy apps is entirely microsoft's fault. To get your app published, you need to pay 99$ a year for a developers license and get your identity verified by some thirdparty. After that when you submit an app, it is supposed to get reviewed by a team at microsoft to verify that your app meets many of the app guideliness set (like not crashing!).
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In general I think they do a really good job. Of course they had to learn in the beginning and a lot of faults were made. But the test department is getting better and better. The reports you get when an app fails certification are often very detailed.
Don't forget they check apps against the Guidelines. I agree there are a lot of stupid apps (Peace Sign app, anyone?). But those apps do follow the Guidelines.
Crashes are hard to predict and it's not that easy to test for them. Personally, I haven't experienced much app crashing on my device. In fact, I've seen more apps crash on my iOS devices than on my WP7.
Microsoft has said they collect crash dumps from all apps on the phone (at least, if you've opted in for that). I hope that someday they'll give us developers access to those dumps, so we can do post-mortem analysis of our app's crashes.
But lately the amount of **** apps that have been appearing on the app marketplace makes me think they are just auto approving anything without even checking to see if it works.
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Totally disagree. The apps may be not to your liking, but most of them do work according to the Guidelines. And did you give feedback to the developers of those apps? They often actually listen!