Develop Bugs

Ehm, why shouldn't we switch?

Hi there, this post is basically dedicated to current users of windows mobile, who bought their phone because of the virtues an open plattform offers. People like us aren't happy with the direction ms is heading with windows phone 7 and hope that the realize their wrong doing by reimplanting things like multitasking, deep-customization, file-system access, native coding or simply copy, cut and paste.
But why should we buy a windows phone 7 device and hope they transform it to something that resembles wm6 offer time when we could just switch to another plattform?
I mean...
- booth the devices we own and the software we use are not compatible to wp7.
- Android basically got every of the above features wp7 is lagging.
- Android devices are aviable or will be released from every major windows mobile manufacture.
- A lot of software studios will produce for Android.
- Through the ndk Google offers there will probably be more windows mobile software on Android than on windows phone in a year from now.
The only thing wp7 got IMO is the ui, and as we all know from endless debates with the iphone-guys ui is a matter of taste and can be ported...

If you're not a Google or Java hater and Android does what you need... don't hesitate.
Android is good. I'm right now playing with an older Android phone, and although it is very slow (old QCOM processor) and has a small screen, I find the experience to be better than the experience I have with my HD2.
I don't have the slightest doubt anymore that Android is better than iPhone OS or WP7S.
It's smooth.
It has a great, flexible home screen (who needs tiles when you got widgets?).
It has by far the best solution for notifications.
It multitasks.
It has a Marketplace and allows you to side-load apps.
It allows you to access the file system.
It copies and pastes.
It has an NDK.
It is available right now and only getting better.
What you don't get is integration with Microsoft's services, like Windows Live and XBox Live. Of course, there's a good chance that you don't care about them.

I've never used an iPhone but I've dabbled in Android for a while. Mostly, through the Poly port for Kaiser. Here's my views on WM6.5 vs Android.
Windows Mobile GOOD
#1 WM5 sucked. Very unstable, and scrolling speed is very slow. WM6 wasn't much different. WM6.1 become stable, but speed still suffers. WM6.5 very stable, but speed suffers. WM6.5.3 is very stable, and the speed is very fast, including scrolling.
#2 True freedom. You have 3 ways to install applications, and the choice for it to be on the SD card or internal memory. Copy and Paste, and all that jazz.
#3 Customization! Like Mc Donald's says, have it your way.
#4 Huge selection of apps.
Windows Mobile BAD
#1 Lots of problems with 3D acceleration support. Mainly due to OpenGL ES drivers.
#2 Only way to upgrade OS is through custom built roms on XDA-Developers. No support from MS, HTC, and etc.
#3 Majority of applications were written in 2003, and have since been abandoned.
#4 With Phone7 coming soon, developers will completely abandon WM6.5, and move onto Phone 7.
Android GOOD
#1 Based on Linux, which means lots of community support.
#2 Already has an established amount of useful applications.
#3 Very customizable. I've seen some impressive 3D stuff.
#4 You can install applications from the SD card.
#5 Copy and paste exists.
Android BAD
#1 Applications must be installed into main memory, unless you partition your SD card.
#2 Very reliant on a internet connection to do a lot of things.
#3 No Offline GPS option for the Nav.
#4 Google might try to take away the "Google" experience from rom cookers.

#3 No Offline GPS option for the Nav.
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There's IGO8, Copilot... and some others. Or did I get you wrong?
#1 Applications must be installed into main memory, unless you partition your SD card.
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Not anymore, afaik.
#4 Huge selection of apps.
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That's even more true for Android.
But this is not WM6.5 vs. Android. WM6.5 is doomed, so the time will come when you have to switch.
WP7S is not worth waiting for, it's just an iPhone OS clone. So, in my opinion, there's no reason not to switch now, if you want to.

What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile? You know it's headed in that direction now. There's like 3 or 4 different versions of the OS and the app community isn't doing well. When WP7 gets its footing in the market (iPhone already has), it's going to be really difficult to compete with these. Perhaps Android will be relegated to low-end smartphones

C:Sharp! said:
There's IGO8, Copilot... and some others. Or did I get you wrong?
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I mean the built in Nav software, which the new one is pretty cool. I could use Ndrive, but I really like the built in Nav.
Not anymore, afaik.
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Maybe it's because I'm using a port for the HTC Kaiser. If that's the case, that can be scratched off the list.
WhyBe said:
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile? You know it's headed in that direction now. There's like 3 or 4 different versions of the OS and the app community isn't doing well. When WP7 gets its footing in the market (iPhone already has), it's going to be really difficult to compete with these. Perhaps Android will be relegated to low-end smartphones
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Won't happen for various reasons. Windows Mobile was never really taken seriously by Microsoft until now, but Android has Google behind them.
It's a lot like what happened to Internet Explorer. When Microsoft won the browser war between Netscape, they left it completely alone. Suddenly FireFox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera are kicking it's ass. Same thing happened with Windows Mobile. iPhone, and Android appeared and took Microsoft by surprise.
Also, since it's linux based, it can never truly die. The community has it's hands on it now, and they'll never let go. Don't be surprised if we see Linux distros in the Future for many phones. Something like Ubuntu or Slackware could become common to see on cooked phone roms, in a couple of years.
iPhone and Windows Phone 7 will still be popular, but does anyone truly believe that phones with so many restrictions will last? I'm sure Microsoft is betting that the Xbox feature will grab people, much like Apple is betting on that their fan base will always grab customers.

Won't happen for various reasons. Windows Mobile was never really taken seriously by Microsoft until now, but Android has Google behind them.
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Google has one success, that is it's search engine. This does not automatically mean success with other endeavors.
It's a lot like what happened to Internet Explorer. When Microsoft won the browser war between Netscape, they left it completely alone. Suddenly FireFox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera are kicking it's ass.
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Nothing is kicking IE's ass. What world are you living in?
Same thing happened with Windows Mobile. iPhone, and Android appeared and took Microsoft by surprise.
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MS deserved it.
Also, since it's linux based, it can never truly die. The community has it's hands on it now, and they'll never let go. Don't be surprised if we see Linux distros in the Future for many phones. Something like Ubuntu or Slackware could become common to see on cooked phone roms, in a couple of years.
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It may not die, per se, but it definitely will never be big. Niche product at best. There's too much confusion in open systems. How many incompatible Android OS'es are out now? Modern smartphones will win or lose based on their apps. Androids app situation sucks right now.
iPhone and Windows Phone 7 will still be popular, but does anyone truly believe that phones with so many restrictions will last? I'm sure Microsoft is betting that the Xbox feature will grab people, much like Apple is betting on that their fan base will always grab customers.
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This is smart business. Use your existing successes to build a customer base. All smart companies do this...even Google.

WhyBe said:
Google has one success, that is it's search engine. This does not automatically mean success with other endeavors.
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Gmail
Google Map
Chrome Web Broswer
Google voice
YouTube
All this is offered for free.
Nothing is kicking IE's ass. What world are you living in?
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This world.
If you added IE6+IE7+IE8, then you can say it's more popular then FireFox. You have to wonder, if people are still using IE6 then it's most likely they probably don't know about other web browsers, or don't even know what one is. You know the type, logs on twitter, facebook, and myspace and uses AIM to chat to people.
It may not die, per se, but it definitely will never be big. Niche product at best. There's too much confusion in open systems. How many incompatible Android OS'es are out now?
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No more then Windows Mobile will have. We'll soon have legacy Windows Mobile 6.5, and Phone 7. Neither are compatible.
Modern smartphones will win or lose based on their apps. Androids app situation sucks right now.
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Not sure about Windows Phone 7, but iPhone has it horrible right now.
No porn apps
No emulators
No web browsers
No flash support
Android may not have as many pull my finger apps or farting apps as iPhone, but at least we can have all of the above. iPhone and Phone7 owners will be able to have 100 different choices of how to make fart noises from their phone, while I'll be able to view flash websites. While iPhone and Phone7 will enjoy half ass made games for their phones, eventually Android will get a Playstation and N64 emulator. I consider any Genesis or SNES game to be far superior then any 3D accelerated game they can put on those phones as is.
The biggest blunder from Apple was them pulling the porn apps. Everyone knows the internet and DVDs became popular due to porn. Enforcing that rule is sure suicide, despite the horrible image of me walking into a public bathroom and finding someone wacking off to porn on their Android phone.
When Mozilla ports FireFox to Android, I'll be able to use ABP and NoScript to have a truly secure surfing experience. While IE on Phone7 fails horribly on the Acid3 test. As it is IE9 gets a 55/100 on Acid3.
Just from what I've mentioned I say there's plenty of incentive to go with an open OS. Jail break your iPhone or **** break your Phone7, but you'll be in this endless battle between Microsoft or Apple.

Dukenukemx said:
Gmail
Google Map
Chrome Web Broswer
Google voice
YouTube
All this is offered for free.
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Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
YouTube they bought for a ridiculous amount of money, and it's a cash disposer. Yeah, we all enjoy it, no doubt about it. The more we enjoy it the more money Google coughs out on it. Windows Mobile is a bigger success than this.
Google Maps? You forgot Gmail. Some 90%+ of Google's income comes from its home page. Not even Adsense, which ads a few percentage points. So no, Google hasn't had a single success in any area apart from search, even though they've been trying to diversify like crazy because they are really scared of what may happen if they lose their search engine domination. The problem is, by doing all this free stuff everywhere about the only thing they achieve is that they technically cannot "fail". Sure, you don't set revenue targets, you just burn cash, what's a failure?

I love WM 6.5.3 and right now my phone (TD2) is just perfect the way it is. And if someday I want something to change then I can just flash a new ROM, install a cab or write another tool on my own.
I hate Android because your applications are running in a Java VM and you can't access the OS kernel functions like you can with WM.
Though yesterday I just for fun run Android on a Touch Diamond. I have to admit the UI is really nice done, even though it isn't THAT MUCH different compared to the user experience you get with 6.5.3. Some window animations here and there and I love it like you can pull down the taskbar and I like the multiple homescreen thing. Though I couldn't do a lot of things with it because for most things it needed a data connection (I didn't plug in a SIM card) and USB/WiFi didn't work. Also it asked me to sign up for Google account all the time. On 6.5.3 on the other hand some things are quite better implemented, for example start menu or Sense. I also like it that you can reach all functions through your touch screen. On Android you're always forced to use the hard keys to close a window or get out of an app. After all I wonder if it's possible to hack into the taskbar or bottom bar like I do on WM but due to Java VM environment I doubt you can do that.
After all, right now there's no reason why I should switch to Android. However I don't know what the situation will be in the next 1-2 years. So in the end all I can say: On the longer run it might be the only OS able to replace 6.5.3 in the future but right now it's just too limited for my taste (in other words I can also say it doesn't give me enough features to forget about some limits). But I definitely keep an eye on it

vangrieg said:
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
YouTube they bought for a ridiculous amount of money, and it's a cash disposer. Yeah, we all enjoy it, no doubt about it. The more we enjoy it the more money Google coughs out on it. Windows Mobile is a bigger success than this.
Google Maps? You forgot Gmail. Some 90%+ of Google's income comes from its home page. Not even Adsense, which ads a few percentage points. So no, Google hasn't had a single success in any area apart from search, even though they've been trying to diversify like crazy because they are really scared of what may happen if they lose their search engine domination. The problem is, by doing all this free stuff everywhere about the only thing they achieve is that they technically cannot "fail". Sure, you don't set revenue targets, you just burn cash, what's a failure?
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+100
Thanks Vangrieg, you beat me to it

vangrieg said:
Chrome Web Browser? A success? You must be kidding me. No, I'm not saying it's a bad product. But can you imagine how much money a promo campaign like Google did for Chrome, would cost a third party? So you spend billions of dollars (even though "virtual" in this case) and get absolutely laughable market share. Success?
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It is success, even though the way to reach it is.... strange!?
But are Microsoft doing any better? They're just buying off companies if they need a new feature.

Google is buying new companies if they need a new feature - Android and YouTube are good examples. Microsoft isn't much better, but they have at least 2.5 sources of income - Windows, Office and Server/Tools. Now, that's a much better success because they sell that stuff. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free, having a huge pile of cash and the world's largest web ad brokerage to not get a sizable market share. Yet Google does it all the time with Buzzes, Waves and all that acid-driven stuff that even tech savvy people rarely understand. And yeah, they'll muck up more than once with Android, the patent protection issue for OEMs is just the first bell that rang.

vangrieg said:
.. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free ...
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xda-developers provide a lot of free stuff, are they losers too? I don't think so

XDA is not a business, we're here for fun. Oh, and one little nuance, XDA doesn't have 20 billion dollars to burn and can't put an ad on every freakin' web site out there.

Dukenukemx said:
Windows Mobile BAD
#1 Lots of problems with 3D acceleration support. Mainly due to OpenGL ES drivers.
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That's not a deficiency of Windows Mobile, it's a deficiency of phones manufactured by HTC. Users of the Toshiba TG01 and Acer neoTouch are very happy with their 3D support, and indeed with their hardware-accelerated video playback of virtually any codec and wrapper format.

vangrieg said:
Google is buying new companies if they need a new feature - Android and YouTube are good examples. Microsoft isn't much better, but they have at least 2.5 sources of income - Windows, Office and Server/Tools. Now, that's a much better success because they sell that stuff. You have to be a complete loser to provide something that usually costs money for free, having a huge pile of cash and the world's largest web ad brokerage to not get a sizable market share. Yet Google does it all the time with Buzzes, Waves and all that acid-driven stuff that even tech savvy people rarely understand. And yeah, they'll muck up more than once with Android, the patent protection issue for OEMs is just the first bell that rang.
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I don't understand it as well, but seems like it's working for them. Microsoft offer more products because they are around way longer. Google are only here for roughly 10 years. Look up what MS had to offer after 10 years of existence, which was in 1985.

Actually, if you carefully listen to what Google execs say, it's not working for them. They are very nervous. I agree that one of the key problems is that they just started to diversify. They are doing too many mistakes though which are relatively easy to avoid. It's actually a funny phenomenon you can often see in companies driven by engineers because they're so into technologies and inventions and such that they just can't resist pushing their cool new things out the door. Google is in fact a lot like Microsoft, only less mature and disciplined, in this regard. A contrast to this approach is Apple where hardly anyone ever sees a beta product, and the company is incredibly focused.
Apart from product development, there's one more thing where Google doesn't have a lot of experience, and that's partnering with others. Jobs once said that he absolutely admires Gates's abilities in this regard, saying that in fact, with all the spats, fan base animosity, tensions and all, Microsoft is the only long-term partner Apple has had through all these years, and the partnership works amazingly well for both parties. He even noted that MS is the second largest developer of software for Apple products after Apple. Google has a long way to learn how to maze through all these issues and make lasting relationships. It's one thing to attract everyone with a free product and give OEMs better bargaining position against Microsoft with a mobile OS, it's a totally different thing to carry it on to market leadership with so many conflicting interests and challenges.
Sure OEMs flirt with open source OSes, IBMs and HPs of the world are investing a lot of resources into Linux development and all, but at the end of the day which OS shows up as "recommended" on their web sites? Sure HTC is all about Android, Open Handset Alliance and all that PR stuff these days, but what does its CEO say when asked why HD2 was a WM device? "We have to take care of Windows Mobile first".

WhyBe said:
What happens when Android becomes the NEW Windows Mobile?
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This is not going to happen.
Contrary to what some people believe, "fragmentation" does not hurt Android much and it's not what made Windows Mobile die.
Windows Mobile died, because it got zero support from Microsoft over many years. There was no money and no developers. They could easily have made it competitive to the iPhone within a year. But they didn't. It took them one and a half years to even figure out what to do and end all the internal battles, which is an eternity in the mobile space.
Google stand behind their mobile OS and you can be sure that they will fix any problems that emerge. If fragmentation becomes too much of an issue, they'll fix it. If the UI gets outdated, they'll fix it. Microsoft didn't fix anything.
And aside from that, it will take Windows Phone 7 at least another year, to even become an option. Handsets must be launched, bugs will have to be fixed and the Marketplace has to be filled. Only then will it be competitive, if ever.
That's plenty of time before you can even consider Windows Phone 7, thus switching to Android now is not wasted money.

RAMMANN said:
I don't understand it as well, but seems like it's working for them. Microsoft offer more products because they are around way longer. Google are only here for roughly 10 years. Look up what MS had to offer after 10 years of existence, which was in 1985.
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How can you compare this?
A lot of what Google has done the last 10 years is based on what MS and others made possible the first 10 years.
It's like saying that Ferrari has accomplished more then Ford because they have made better and faster cars the last 10 years then Ford did the first 10.
Ferrari might not have existed today if their wasn't someone that made engines and wheels before them.
Android is the first (open source) Linux OS that has been sold on a device. although you call it open source it's not more open the WM or iPhone.
Google is controlling the development of the OS and anyone can make applications for it.. whats the difference now between android, WM or iPhone? and witch one of them is most open source? all of them have the same. A company that develops the OS and developers making the apps.
I only see MS going less open source with WP7.
and to not having porn apps and other stuff on iPhone well jailbreak and you have it.
Now some will say you can't do anything without jailbraking an iphone. Well without Hard spl you are also kind of sucked on WM.
Android has already several updates and can't be run by all older devices.
WM also have a few updates but a wizard that is quite an old device can run WM 6.5.

Is there anything good about WP7

Ok now... we all have heard whats bad, or not so good or what can be improved with WP7.
But on the other hand anyone has good news for all of us to contiune with windows and not jump ship to android or iPhone. At the moment I dont see the why I would want to buy an WP7 yet! maybe in few years when it matures as an OS.

Windows phone 7 gives you a lot of choice in hardware devices, unlike the iPhone, unless you don't mind being stuck with one manufacture (see how that turned bad with the iPhone 4 reception issue). I think this is a big point especially for people who like physical keyboards and different shapes or colours.
Now you are thinking "Android offers a wide range of hardware as well, so what is the difference?" One thing if find bad about the Android ecosystem is OS fragmentation. I know being open source is a big plus, but in this case it backfired because anyone can put the OS on any device, so we ended up with a lot of devices not getting upgraded by their OEMs/carriers rather than let Google handle updating devices.
Microsoft is tackling this problem by putting minimum device requirements so that any update Microsoft releases, it can be easily pushed to all kinds of devices.
So overall, I think Microsoft is approching this market in a balanced manner, they are not extermly closed (think Apple) nor very open (Google). Which is a good thing for developers and end users.
There are a lot of other things, like Windows Live and Xbox integration (if you care about those).

From a developer point of view, it's also the most attractive mobile platform that ever been made. It's amazingly easy to make complex apps and games, and it's a standard way of doing it, opposed to iPhone and Android's "lets reinvent the wheel" technologies.
Plus, it's the only phone development environment that have a visual editor (Expression Blend), which is a big plus for rapid development.
(Not to mention, you don't have to buy a Mac to code for it!)
From a consumer point of view, it's a strong phone, works with all existing services, specially all Microsoft ones, but also all the others. It'll be the first phone with Windows Live Messenger available on, and Zune integration.
Basically you get all the power of Microsofts platforms, in a single device, without the limitations of Apple. Everybody who's used to using Windows will get a greater experience with this phone, than any other phone on the market.
So it's a win/win/win, situation

I'm getting one just for the fact it has Zune on it, this alone makes it worthy of a purchase if you use multimedia heavily.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the things the OP consider "bad" is what the majority considers "good"

Windcape said:
So it's a win/win/win, situation
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Hahaha.
Good points.

The biggest thing is the UI. Frankly put; it's innovative, attractive, intuitive, and just works really well. When you get your hands on one and play around with it for a few minutes you'll see.

I'm stoked about Window Phone 7. I know if won't have as much freedom out the door as Windows 6.5 but I've seen the demo's and from what I can see it looks great. Here's my top 10 good list:
1. Actual Xbox Live integration with achievements
2. Finger Friendly
3. Sharp modern UI
4. Hubs that bring in a multitude of information that covers the work of many apps, but all in one place.
5. Good minimum requirements
6. Easy and well thought out development tools.
7. Everything about Zune all in one Hub.
8. Great Social networking integration
9. Multiple exchange accounts, emails and calendars.
10. Great use of Office on mobile.

What draws me to WP7 is really metro. I've tinkered a lot with windows phones over the years leveraging different UIs, skins, themes, etc. But really my favorite UI for my phone thus far has been titanium. I prefer the typography. Being that wp7 is a titanium enhancement, it suites me very well.
darkmurder said:
I'm getting one just for the fact it has Zune on it, this alone makes it worthy of a purchase if you use multimedia heavily.
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You should be able to use Zune with any windows phone. I have zune pass and use my omnia II to play the drm music, so you don't have to wait for wp7 to have a "zune" phone.

WTB Zune Pass in Europe already!

Windcape said:
WTB Zune Pass in Europe already!
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It's great, my only compliant is that you have to backup your mp3s if you purchase them or when you use your credits. It doesn't let you redownload them, probably because of some legal nonsense.
It's not too bad with 25GB from Skydrive, and using the Gladinet client to map your cloud drive to a physical drive.

let's stop being "real" and start being realistic
I have a vague feeling that people on this topic are working for the Microsoft development team...
as a faithful user of the most advanced pocketpc ever built ever since it launched (htc universal or jasjar) I'll just reply to those "strengths"
First ond foremost, the windows mobile had its success because users were able to hack it and expand it BEYOND of what they payed for. if we limited ourselves to what M$ provided, this site wouldn't exist and the HTC would have gone bankrupt.
1. Actual Xbox Live integration with achievements
You have Xbox and yet you are going to be playing on a phone?
2. Finger Friendly
in addition to every single SW company having developed the touch finger application keyboard, there are devices with their own keyboards, which actually work MUCH better then the touch mode ever will because you can feel the keys and you're able to predict where the next one is, at least until they invent the physically morphing touch screen.
3. Sharp modern UI
simplistic doesn't mean modern....ever! there is a FLAT SQUARE and Arial TEXT on it...that's a post-it for retarded. SPB mobile shell for instance gave the smooth design and modern hi-tech look to 6.1 phones. their only limitation was the processor and the memory. but that's how the digital revolution started - microsoft made ever more demanding OSes and Intel made processors to match. If you start spinning in circles around an antiquated graphics and limited applications, why would they innovate?
4. Hubs that bring in a multitude of information that covers the work of many apps, but all in one place.
apps that cannot be made by anyone else without a license by microsoft. and no one is using microsoft products on their pocketpc's because they are inefficient, large and expensive.
5. Good minimum requirements
nokia's s40 phones require even less resources, and offer greater UI, usability and stability. and they are as customizeable as the win 7, and yet people don't seriously consider using them as a PDA capable to integrate with the market's dominant and upcoming applications.
6. Easy and well thought out development tools.
We'll see...
7. Everything about Zune all in one Hub.
Zune is a MUSIC PLAYER! PERIOD! it's function is to play music! what everything?
8. Great Social networking integration
if you're referring to that travesty of facebook integration, I used the Windows Live Messenger Beta and let me tell you how it works: the system makes assumptions that videos and most popular items demand our attention, and they are in big, while the rest is small, so it's not about keeping track of your friends, it's about flashing content to a moron public.
9. Multiple exchange accounts, emails and calendars.
Will we be able to activesync our device over the wi-fi or via internet??
10. Great use of Office on mobile.
I would gladly pay good money to see a microsoft developer use a touch-only phone to create and modify a corporate-standard excel or even word file...

Dude you are in the wrong thread.
This is where you should post -> WP7 is complete FAIL
vk2000 said:
I have a vague feeling that people on this topic are working for the Microsoft development team...
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Take of your foilhat.

vk2000 said:
I have a vague feeling that people on this topic are working for the Microsoft development team...
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Click to collapse
I'm not, but I'll apply for a position in 2 years time when I'm finished with my second bachelor.
vk2000 said:
if we limited ourselves to what M$ provided, this site wouldn't exist
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Funny, I thought that Windows Mobile development was the original topic of xda-developers. It's not like the name itself says so, no no.
vk2000 said:
1. Actual Xbox Live integration with achievements
You have Xbox and yet you are going to be playing on a phone?
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Yes. Welcome to 2010.
vk2000 said:
3. Sharp modern UI
simplistic doesn't mean modern....ever! there is a FLAT SQUARE and Arial TEXT on it...that's a post-it for retarded. SPB mobile shell for instance gave the smooth design and modern hi-tech look to 6.1 phones. their only limitation was the processor and the memory. but that's how the digital revolution started - microsoft made ever more demanding OSes and Intel made processors to match. If you start spinning in circles around an antiquated graphics and limited applications, why would they innovate?
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I see you have zero experience in usability or design. Go read some Jakob Nielsen, and come back when you find yourself in a suitable position to discuss usability design on phones.
vk2000 said:
4. Hubs that bring in a multitude of information that covers the work of many apps, but all in one place.
apps that cannot be made by anyone else without a license by microsoft. and no one is using microsoft products on their pocketpc's because they are inefficient, large and expensive.
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Clearly you been living in a cave for the last five years. The developer license also grants you the ability to host your applications on the marketplace, and is common practice for all mobile developers. Even Google have it for Android.
vk2000 said:
5. Good minimum requirements
nokia's s40 phones r equire even less resources, and offer greater UI, usability and stability. and they are as customizeable as the win 7, and yet people don't seriously consider using them as a PDA capable to integrate with the market's dominant and upcoming applications.
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See again you completely misunderstood what the customers want. And the minimum requirements is so you don't get ****ty phones like all Android devices from 2009 / early 2010.
vk2000 said:
6. Easy and well thought out development tools.
We'll see...
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No, we already seen. Visual Studio and Expression Blend goes years back, and is popular and known development tools. Microsoft have the largest developer community on earth (MSDN), and they are so far the only who managed to actually create so much community around their technology and tools. Even the Linux community can't follow here.
And most of the developers in MSDN are professionals, so it's used for solving real-life problems. And if you're a consumer, and not a developer, you won't understand the importance of this.
Also XNA available on WP7 means it's the first phone with a gaming framework available from day one.
vk2000 said:
7. Everything about Zune all in one Hub.
Zune is a MUSIC PLAYER! PERIOD! it's function is to play music! what everything?
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Click to collapse
No, Zune is a online music-service, a desktop music player ,and a music-player device. And in WP7, the online service and desktop client will work along with the phone. A lot of us like to use our smartphones for music, for example, while biking to work or studies.
vk2000 said:
8. Great Social networking integration
if you're referring to that travesty of facebook integration, I used the Windows Live Messenger Beta and let me tell you how it works: the system makes assumptions that videos and most popular items demand our attention, and they are in big, while the rest is small, so it's not about keeping track of your friends, it's about flashing content to a moron public.
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Click to collapse
Microsoft don't make assumptions, they got detailed statistics over the functionality people use in Windows Live Messenger. Just because you don't behave like the other 300 million users, doesn't make it wrong.
It's designed for the average consumer, and they done a very good job with that. More consumers = more people to buy our apps = more money for us.
vk2000 said:
9. Multiple exchange accounts, emails and calendars.
Will we be able to activesync our device over the wi-fi or via internet??
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Both
vk2000 said:
10. Great use of Office on mobile.
I would gladly pay good money to see a microsoft developer use a touch-only phone to create and modify a corporate-standard excel or even word file...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Phones are less meant for modify, as for accessing the information in the said data.
It's handy if you're on the road, and want to pull out some data to compare with people you're discussing with or similar.

vk2000
3. Sharp modern UI
simplistic doesn't mean modern....ever! there is a FLAT SQUARE and Arial TEXT on it...that's a post-it for retarded.
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You nail that one!

Actually the font is Segoe WP. And the flat squares will be replaced with images and partially display icons among others.
Which makes it even better than just a bunch of techno-color icons.

clearly you guys are either very young or like to suck up to your (hoped) employer a lot
quoting the only author you know, doesn't make you smart, it makes you a charlatan. you should find a good dictionary if you don't know what that word is, since you clearly don't understand what I am saying anyway.
If you're going to play games on something small, you should buy a PSP
and
I've been following the IT development ever since I was 8 and computers ran on Windows 3.11
I don't require a degree in design to state clearly as a user who is going to pay 300-1000 euros, that a PDA should be
1) USABLE
2) reliable
3) USABLE
4) customizable and upgradeable
the fact that people are buying does not mean that the product is good, they're either poised with offensive marketing, like apple does, or they don't have any better choice! Statistics are meaningless more often then not, and you would know their significance if you studied statistics, 4 different types of sociology, macroeconomics and international financial relations, on your way to your M.Sc., like I did
games on the phone existed since Sun decided to make Java for mobile markets, so... a decade of "nothing new" to you . if windows 7 was able to reach the sophistication of the mobile gaming consoles, it would have been something, otherwise it's a child's toy, not suitable for business!
given you know nothing about the mobile market before you learned to talk and talk-back, I'm not surprised you would be satisfied even with yet another shade of "solitaire"
and as for my design capabilities, my photographic portfolio and web-design are always a winner what do you got to offer besides a big tongue and lack of arguments?

Windcape said:
Actually the font is Segoe WP. And the flat squares will be replaced with images and partially display icons among others.
Which makes it even better than just a bunch of techno-color icons.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
we went from 3d transparent and interactive icons BACK to a SQUARE 1, junior...
you should familiarize yourself with the hard work of so many people on this forum who are trying to change the OS from "default to outstanding" for free and for the benefit of everyone

So you think your personal preferences makes up for the 300 million target users that Microsoft have in the Windows Live and Zune cloud?
You think you can invalidate a business-model just because someone done something similar before? You think the phone sucks because you don't like it, even you haven't got the slightest idea how it works, how to develop for it or how to sell applications for it (or for phones in general).
From a consumer, business and software-engineering point of view, WP7 is damn near perfect.
So how about you let us know how old you actually are, and what you actually study, if you absolutely want to include personal attacks in your qq'ing.

vk2000 said:
we went from 3d transparent and interactive icons BACK to a SQUARE 1, junior...
you should familiarize yourself with the hard work of so many people on this forum who are trying to change the OS from "default to outstanding" for free and for the benefit of everyone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And do you have any idea why they did this? Have you ever read a usability study of a smartphone? Have you ever done a usability study of any device, or interface at all?
Or could it be that the professionals know more than you do.

How can we support WP7 to make sure it succeds? ( and actually gets a version 2 even)

Ive showed my support by getting one myself, most, no, ALL people who have seen my phone are impressed with it. there are also tons of GOOD reviews for WP7 and the devices themselves have received good reviews....so what going wrong? anything we can do?

Open up the API so we can develop more useful applications for the phone!

From a uk perspective, there are 2 issues IMHO.
1) the marketing, not visible enough and not helped by sales staff in carrier shops and online not knowing about wp7 and/or actively selling against it. All the phone shops in my loca mall still have huge iPhone 4 banners in the window and that was launched months ago.
2) if anyone does get as far as thinking about getting a wp7, they come to a site like this to research it and are immediately greeted by loads of posts about wp7 being crap because you can't sync with outlook 1995 via a piece of string attached to a commodore PET running dos 1.0, and WP7 being crap cos you can't load custom roms etc.
I like wp7 and I want Microsoft to fill the gaps with the missing features, what concerns me is that if all the negativity results in poor sales, MS will have less incentive to spend money on the platform. We have to "evangelise" with positive posts on forums like this highlighting the many good features of the platform, and where we criticise, it should be constructive. I have used all the main mobile OS's, I think wp7 has the most promise and am proud to say I am a fan.

you are spot on! the UK marketing is EXTREEMLY poor and whats with 8GB?? how can we make MS take notice of whats really going on over here in the UK?

I havev16gb on my hd7, I don't use it all (only 4th at the mo).

go into t-mobile stores and tell the reps how much you like it. It seems like T-Mobile employees have been instructed to be anti-WP7. The 3 stores I went to to buy a case, screen protector, and the phone itself all seemed to bring up the problems with WM 6.5 when I was looking at the phones.
All of them were also surprised that I liked the phone alot and couldn't believe I used to have a nexus one and then a vibrant. When I bought the phone the sales rep kept trying to talk me out of it also. I've also seen plent of people posting the same comments about t-mobile here on this forum.

What are some creative apps that can be done quickly to fill in gaps?
I'd say one way to get some sustainability is to work with companies that currently have iphone/droid apps and offer services to help deliver a WP7 app - either through custom work for them directly or seeking out a new open source project/effort.
i've been communicating with NPR myself to get the framework for an open source npr app. If people go to npr.com and see a winodws phone app listed there they may feel a tad more comforatable that their phone is feature rich and relevent. Same could be said for other popular institutions that have apps available where there is no current wp7 branding

One of the things I find disheartening is the misunderstanding that 7 can't do something just because the 6.5 way to do that job can't be copied over. Case in point: MyPhone. There are plenty of threads where folk get riled up because they can't believe that MS could forget to make 7 compatible with MyPhone! What's even more disturbing is the lack of responses in those threads about how MyPhone is utterly obsolete now due to Live.
To reiterate what has been said already, those of us that have actually used 7 need to get out there a lot more and help answer questions and concerns, especially when they're just flat-out wrong or based on misunderstanding. If anything, that's what's gonna help with understanding of adoption of the platform.
As far as success goes, though, I don't really see any need for worry. MS is obviously expressing a serious desire to compete here, and is laying out the resources to do it right. They did it with the Xbox when folk thought they were crazy and couldn't possibly break into that market, and they're coming in fierce with 7 now.
At this point, we only need to be honest. Let it be known what you like and dislike, and help folk around you to make informed decisions.
Also, have lots of fun playing with the things. People respond well to information, but a smile is also very telling, and infectious.

FL5 said:
Case in point: MyPhone. There are plenty of threads where folk get riled up because they can't believe that MS could forget to make 7 compatible with MyPhone! What's even more disturbing is the lack of responses in those threads about how MyPhone is utterly obsolete now due to Live.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not true. There's no document or text message backup with Live. Those are critical features that must be implemented to make it a real My Phone replacement.

jeffgeno said:
That's not true. There's no document or text message backup with Live. Those are critical features that must be implemented to make it a real My Phone replacement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I like how you dismissed everything pertinent in that post to pick out that one part to whinge about, managing to both miss the point entirely and not contribute to the topic.
That being said, I guess I need to look into how to back up SMS. Not something I usually worry about, as I view SMS as disposable data (and partly because winmo got me used to having to clear SMS to prevent lag. Not really relevant anymore, I suppose), but it might be handy info in case I need to answer a question.

Buy games and apps on the marketplace. If this phone is going to survive we need developers writing quality apps. When you do download an app/game rate it and leave comments. Even if the app/game is free let the developer know there's interest in it.

this thread is a repeat of before... but as i said before... the best way to get people into windows phone is to let them use yours. i've shown my phone to a lot of my friends and all of them really like it. a lot of them iPhone users. let them play with your phone, the messaging, email, even facebook app. it's a risk to you cause they could do stuff to your wall but in the end it shows them what it's like. sure, they're not rushing out to buy it now, but at least it's now in their sights and they can think whether they'll stick with the sea of icons, or have a river of them (jokes of course, river being the app list... come on MS implement serach...).

It's really up to MS and the hardware partners.
Case in point..the new Nexus phone for Android from Samsung. The prototype for this phone has been around for a while. Why wasn't this also the Samsung's WP7 offering? 16 GB storage and a sweet body.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Focus, but seeing that Nexus made me cuss a bit.
HD7 - screen issues. HTC surround - speakers are a gimmick and again, lousy screen - compared to the S-Amoled of the Focus. Kick ass hardware is a must.
MS needs to get on the ball and get updates out fast and regular. They have to keep WP7 users interested and invested. That means better communication with us. Let us know in no uncertain terms what is being worked on and it's progress.
If people are confident that MS will keep upgrading/updating the OS, they will jump on board.
Get those missing features into the OS. Roll out those performance enhancements - for God's sake fix the issues with MarketPlace! It's hard enough to be behind on features, MS also has to integrate stuff that's ahead of the competition.
Advertising - the ads for WP7 are not getting the job done. Granted, it's tricky to advertise a brand new OS that's suppose to get MS back in the game while the OS itself is behind the others in features, but there is a huge market out there that won't miss those features. Show the People and Photo hubs in action..show the FB integration in greater detail.
Of course, open up the APIs. I cannot fathom why this is seemingly not a priority.

WP7 suffers from the same issues as Zune did. If they don't open the API then WP7 will fall by the wayside just like Zune.

votum said:
WP7 suffers from the same issues as Zune did. If they don't open the API then WP7 will fall by the wayside just like Zune.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't know what you're talking about but I love my Zune HD and use it daily.
As for Zune falling by the wayside, it's on Xbox and WP7. It's all around and it's somehow on the wayside somewhere? Be real.
As for the APIs, devs seem to be so lazy anyway, I doubt open APIs will bring about the AP revolution you think will happen.
Even offerings from MS have been half-hearted. A lot of APs really could have benefited from the Live Tile technology but for some reason, chose not to implement it.
Devs need to love or at least appear to love what they're doing if we want quality apps.
Apps done right are a joy on my HD7 and I do not regret buying this phone at all. It's just pleasant surprise after pleasant surprise with this OS and I expect the manufacturers of handsets to step up to the bar after they realize it's here to stay. MS will continue to invest heavily in mobile as it is the way of the future. We've only had WP7 for not even 2 months, give it time!

lekki said:
Don't know what you're talking about but I love my Zune HD and use it daily.
As for Zune falling by the wayside, it's on Xbox and WP7. It's all around and it's somehow on the wayside somewhere? Be real.
As for the APIs, devs seem to be so lazy anyway, I doubt open APIs will bring about the AP revolution you think will happen.
Even offerings from MS have been half-hearted. A lot of APs really could have benefited from the Live Tile technology but for some reason, chose not to implement it.
Devs need to love or at least appear to love what they're doing if we want quality apps.
Apps done right are a joy on my HD7 and I do not regret buying this phone at all. It's just pleasant surprise after pleasant surprise with this OS and I expect the manufacturers of handsets to step up to the bar after they realize it's here to stay. MS will continue to invest heavily in mobile as it is the way of the future. We've only had WP7 for not even 2 months, give it time!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dunno man,
ask 100 people if they have a Zune or an iPod and or use Zune or iTunes and see what the response is...

orangekid said:
I dunno man,
ask 100 people if they have a Zune or an iPod and or use Zune or iTunes and see what the response is...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you have a point in that the market is flooded with iPod/iPhone which results in more people using iTunes (so it's a bit of a loaded question).
but yea, as good as the Zune is for those that have it, the marketing that Apple does is just a lot better. I think it was wise that MS move their Zune to windows phone. It is a really good peice of software and many find it better than iTunes (on Windows). But of course, if you have an iPhone (or i product) you're locked into using iTunes, as you are with windows phone. So this is why the numbers for iTunes are so high. If that wasn't the case, there would be far fewer people using iTunes that's for sure.

blahism said:
What are some creative apps that can be done quickly to fill in gaps?
I'd say one way to get some sustainability is to work with companies that currently have iphone/droid apps and offer services to help deliver a WP7 app - either through custom work for them directly or seeking out a new open source project/effort.
i've been communicating with NPR myself to get the framework for an open source npr app. If people go to npr.com and see a winodws phone app listed there they may feel a tad more comforatable that their phone is feature rich and relevent. Same could be said for other popular institutions that have apps available where there is no current wp7 branding
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
there is a npr app in the marketplace. good reviews too.

[Q] Why is microsoft putting its software on iOS?

Microsoft seem to be putting their software onto apples phone, http://wmpoweruser.com/how-to-alienate-your-customers-101/
whats next microsoft office on iOS if this continues then there will be on reason to get a wp7 device, after all, the iphone has a better gpu, far more memory (i live in the uk so 16gb is the max 8gb is the norm) so why would i want to buy a wp7 device again if MS starts doing this???

Because they're a software company?

davidebanks said:
Microsoft seem to be putting their software onto apples phone, http://wmpoweruser.com/how-to-alienate-your-customers-101/
whats next microsoft office on iOS if this continues then there will be on reason to get a wp7 device, after all, the iphone has a better gpu, far more memory (i live in the uk so 16gb is the max 8gb is the norm) so why would i want to buy a wp7 device again if MS starts doing this???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
why is office on mac os?
why should they not?
WP7 has a different user experience and i like it much more than the android/ios experience....wp7 wouldn`t a good plattform if only the apps are the pros for it.

And why not give iOS users possibility to like office and maybe consider wp7 for their next phone then?
Well, might never happen, cause most applers stay applers...
Sent from my HTC 7 Mozart using Board Express

Geez. Why should you buy a WP7 rather than iPhone? Because the user experience between the two devices are completely different.
Obviously apps are going to be cross platform, Microsoft is after all a software company. Now, one could argue that they should perhaps do what Google does - and wait with releasing their apps on other platforms until they absolutely have to, but this is the iPhone we are talking about - they have to.

Good Point bro!!!
And because in the futur all softwares will be able to run all platform.

0711 said:
why is office on mac os?
why should they not?
WP7 has a different user experience and i like it much more than the android/ios experience....wp7 wouldn`t a good plattform if only the apps are the pros for it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why is there iTunes Windows? It is slow by the way.
I am sure that companies do this so that user can have options and maybe pick the companies OS next time.

Peew971 said:
Because they're a software company?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then why do they not port Halo to PS3 for example? Like you said, they are a software company, and could easily double the revenue. MS are idiots for not porting Xbox games like Halo to other platforms.

Keep in mind that the software developed for the iPhone was a separate team from those working on Wp7.
Also, if iphone users start to use a bunch of microsoft apps, maybe they will think "maybe I should be using a microsoft phone" and then buy a windows phone. Sure it could go the other way as well... but I'm an optimist.

To make money, as what pretty much most if not all paid apps are for.

digger1985 said:
Then why do they not port Halo to PS3 for example? Like you said, they are a software company, and could easily double the revenue. MS are idiots for not porting Xbox games like Halo to other platforms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Too much work? Maybe they figured that game exclusivity is what drives the console sales.

canadariot2312 said:
Too much work? Maybe they figured that game exclusivity is what drives the console sales.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is all about the market share, and profit.

canadariot2312 said:
Too much work? Maybe they figured that game exclusivity is what drives the console sales.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But porting apps over to iOS is not? How come they can't figure out that app exclusivity also drives phone sales.

digger1985 said:
But porting apps over to iOS is not? How come they can't figure out that app exclusivity also drives phone sales.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because console games are complicated and require certain components to work. Every smartphone uses the same SoC set no matter what OS they run whether it would be snapdragon, omap, a4, etc. The consoles are made differently, the 360 with tri-cores and the ps3 uses something really confusing. Than again, Final Fantasy did appear on the Xbox, but Sony didn't exclusive rights to that game.
I would imagine that it is miles easier for porting apps, or maybe they want to do something like having an app on a certain phone will just run better as oppose to something not native.

kabumm said:
And why not give iOS users possibility to like office and maybe consider wp7 for their next phone then?
Well, might never happen, cause most applers stay applers...
Sent from my HTC 7 Mozart using Board Express
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't . Don't get me wrong, I loved my iPhone (until Apple butchered it with iOS 4), but when I went to go snag an iPhone 4 and got to play with it side by side with the Samsung Focus, the choice was clear--Focus is a MUCH nicer device, with a nicer screen and of course, Windows Phone 7 itself--which makes iOS look antiquated and stale.
That said, I also have a 2010 Macbook Pro 13" which I got purely so I can submit apps to the iOS store, but I can't stand Mac OSX, it's a ****in' turd. So I'm glad the laptop runs Windows 7 nicely enough, LOL.

digger1985 said:
Then why do they not port Halo to PS3 for example? Like you said, they are a software company, and could easily double the revenue. MS are idiots for not porting Xbox games like Halo to other platforms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
MS also makes the hardware for the XBOX. And they sold the hardware at a loss. Their revenue model was dependent on software attach rates being high on the console. People often choose game consoles based on exclusive games. MS could spend millions marketing Halo because they know that the reason people buy XBOX consoles is so that they could play awesome games. Period. Everything else the XBOX does is just gravy.
People buy smartphones for so many different reasons.
MS can't invest millions of dollars into the promotion and marketing of a single app, because a large portion of customers won't care about it.
Bing and One Note are fighting for mindshare. You can't have a killer phone app if nobody even knows what it is.
The only way to market and advertise how good Bing and One Note could be is by putting it the hands of the most people possible. And for now, that's on the iPhone.

Reflexx1 said:
People buy smartphones for so many different reasons.
MS can't invest millions of dollars into the promotion and marketing of a single app, because a large portion of customers won't care about it.
Bing and One Note are fighting for mindshare. You can't have a killer phone app if nobody even knows what it is.
The only way to market and advertise how good Bing and One Note could be is by putting it the hands of the most people possible. And for now, that's on the iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are using a smartphone for a single app, than you need to rethink.
I heard that you can get Bing on Android devices as well, although not many people actually want it (seeing that it is a Google phone). I think putting Microsoft software on other OS' is not a bad idea. After all, you see Microsoft everywhere.

Reflexx1 said:
MS also makes the hardware for the XBOX. And they sold the hardware at a loss. Their revenue model was dependent on software attach rates being high on the console. People often choose game consoles based on exclusive games. MS could spend millions marketing Halo because they know that the reason people buy XBOX consoles is so that they could play awesome games. Period. Everything else the XBOX does is just gravy.
People buy smartphones for so many different reasons.
MS can't invest millions of dollars into the promotion and marketing of a single app, because a large portion of customers won't care about it.
Bing and One Note are fighting for mindshare. You can't have a killer phone app if nobody even knows what it is.
The only way to market and advertise how good Bing and One Note could be is by putting it the hands of the most people possible. And for now, that's on the iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You comment doesn't make any sense. They sell hardware at a loss and make money from games. Keeping Xbox exclusives would make sense if they made money from the hardware. Since they make money from the games, they should be doing everything to port games to other platforms as well.

Thing is, Microsoft is the top player in the console industry - so they don't have to port games to other platforms. The increase in revenue would likely be offset by the increase in development cost to support the PS3 and/or Wii. Not to mention the fact that Microsoft Game Studio titles do drive console sales (I know plenty of people who have bought an Xbox 360 purely because of Halo for example); higher console sales lead to higher revenue (even if they did initially sell hardware at a loss) as people pay for the XBL Gold service, spend money in the Xbox marketplace and purchase Xbox 360 games (for which MS get's a license fee no matter if it's an in-house title or not).
This is pretty much how the printer/ink/toner industry or coffee-pod industry works also. They sell the hardware at little to no profit but you are tied in to buying their ink/toner or coffee-pods for the lifetime of the product. It's actually cheaper for me to purchase a new CLP every so often than it is to buy new toner - when I then sell the old printer online I more or less come out at zero cost.
In the smartphone sector, Apple is the king of the hill and it only makes sense to have their software available. Apps do not drive phone sales; UX (User eXperience) does. Keeping a title exclusive to WP7 makes no sense at all. At the same time, it does not make sense (business wise) to support all possible smartphone platforms out there, only iOS and Android has a valuable marketplace (app wise) so those are the platforms to support - this is why Google hasn't released their apps as official WP7 clients thus far; Windows Phone 7 doesn't have a big enough marketshare that it pays for them to spend development dollars on it. Once the OS gains momentum (if it does) Google will rather quickly release what they have to offer.
All said, I do agree it's painful when "better" software appears for the iPhone rather than their own OS, WP7, but this goes back to the fact Microsoft are so large. There is no single person making decisions, they have COO's and project managers en masse, often trying to out-do eachother or vote other projects down as they step on their own projects toes. Microsoft is filled to the brim with highly competent people, but they operate like a bureaucracy. Ask anyone who's ever worked there and they'll all more or less tell the same story - the layers of hierarchy is killing creative output.
How many times has Microsoft not come out with killer products which has failed miserably in the marketplace because upper management hasn't seen or understood the possibility. Take Media Center for example, it has given the best UX for DVRs for years - still, they never took it to the next level and now it's almost too late. With a lot of luck their embedded Media Center's showcased (in a back-room no less?!) at CES may make a dent in the market, but it's highly unlikely as they missed the boat. GoogleTV, AppleTV, Boxee and a whole lot of other players are now ruling the roost.
That's exactly what they did with the mobile sector also - they had great ideas and were the top players years ago. But they became complacent and stopped innovating. Then other players came along and completely killed them; what was WM's marketshare last year? How much of that was made up of HD2 sales which were re-flashed with Android?

digger1985 said:
Then why do they not port Halo to PS3 for example? Like you said, they are a software company, and could easily double the revenue. MS are idiots for not porting Xbox games like Halo to other platforms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is off topic but why would you want to port Halo to the PS3? Halo is more aimed at muliplayer and as everyone knows Playstation sucks at on-line gaming.

Official: Mango Public Unveiling on May 24th

Just under 2 weeks now .
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-slates-mango-vip-unveiling-for-may-24-in-new-york/9389

does the developers kit mean that develpoers will get mango on their wp7, or they can only make wp7 apps? As I can sign up to become a developer for free due to dreamspark?

andoridkiller said:
does the developers kit mean that develpoers will get mango on their wp7, or they can only make wp7 apps? As I can sign up to become a developer for free due to dreamspark?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt it. I expect it'll just run in the emulator.
Also, you have to submit an app if you're signing up through DreamSpark to get your identity verified by GeoTrust.
Casey

I'm excited to see what they announce. All the features leaked over the last few days are already nice (plus all the Developer goodies announced at MIX), but you know thats just the tip of the iceberg, and they will probably have one or two major things to announce as well.

Probably the best thing they can do right now. The OS is dead until Mango/Nokia. When Nokia devices hit with Mango I expect to see a huge spike in sales and development.

Casey_boy said:
I doubt it. I expect it'll just run in the emulator.
Also, you have to submit an app if you're signing up through DreamSpark to get your identity verified by GeoTrust.
Casey
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes Developers will get an image to install on there test phones this has been stated several times including at mix11.

vetvito said:
Probably the best thing they can do right now. The OS is dead until Mango/Nokia. When Nokia devices hit with Mango I expect to see a huge spike in sales and development.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The OS is far from dead, and a steady marketshare despite the disgusting drop in Windows Mobile sales shows that. Microsoft is basically countering the complete loss of Windows Mobile market sales with Windows Phone, which can't be an easy task, to be honest. People don't see this. And all the reports I've read show this, aside the biased blogs which look like they were written by users on this site.
But, I do agree with the huge spike coming with Mango and Nokia. Microsoft has developed a steady foundation where many developers have seen the ease in development for the platform. Therefore, once the available apis are there, I see them all joining the platform. After all, they're here to make money, and the more OS platforms they're on, the more potential they have.
Honestly, the phone is fine as it is now, it does everything the real public wants, aside from chat and Words With Friends -.- and things like AIM are basically dead to the American teenage market, where FB Chat has taken over and Skype. Come Mango, the "missing" features will flood in, and with Verizon's marketing history, and Nokia's dominance, I think the outlook is significantly more positive than some on here would lead you to believe.
This is Microsoft, they don't lose.

FiyaFleye said:
Honestly, the phone is fine as it is now, it does everything the real public wants
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No it's not, most people have issues with Live Tiles and Notifications and that's a big deal. When you get an eBay "outbid" notification after the auction is over you would agree it is totally pointless.
aside from chat and Words With Friends -.- and things like AIM are basically dead to the American teenage market, where FB Chat has taken over and Skype.
This is Microsoft, they don't lose.
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To be fair AlphaJax is just as good as Words With Friends .
You're totally wrong on AIM, there are enough people who can't be bothered to go through facebook to chat with their friends. Have you seen how popular BBM is? Not to mention WLM and Google Talk.
Come Mango, the "missing" features will flood in, and with Verizon's marketing history, and Nokia's dominance, I think the outlook is significantly more positive than some on here would lead you to believe.
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Partly agree, Mango will make it a great OS and that's the OS that will sell people, not Verizon (which is US only) or Nokia, although they will help.
This is Microsoft, they don't lose.
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I'm a MS fan too but can't occult Windows Mobile 6.5, Zune or Kin as overall failures.

The problem with Skype isn't really its existence or lack thereof. It's the fact that major players like Google and Microsoft do not have decent mobile clients. Windows Live Messenger supports VoIP and Video Calling. So did Google Talk and look how long it took Google to add it into Android. I'm unsure if Micorsoft is adding this in Mango, but we don't know all the details.
Read reviews online. Most people who post them want Skype for the Video Calling and Free Skype to Skype VoIP. With the proliferation of Smartphones these days, in many cases it's just dumb to pay Skype anything when you can have your friends install the app and do it all for free, Lol.
Google and Microsoft have the capacity to offer those same services with a better user experience. They just need to get off of their asses and do it. Skype hysteria is completely due to services like WLM and Google Talk sucking on smartphones.
Then again, Skype would probably file AntiTrust suits against them if they did that
I've never understood people who were all "SKYPE SKYPE SKYPE!" when they really should be saying "fix your fking mobile clients so we don't have to install this boring battery hogging app that restricts functionality on various platforms because they have carrier deals" and things like that.

Peew971 said:
No it's not, most people have issues with Live Tiles and Notifications and that's a big deal. When you get an eBay "outbid" notification after the auction is over you would agree it is totally pointless.
To be fair AlphaJax is just as good as Words With Friends .
You're totally wrong on AIM, there are enough people who can't be bothered to go through facebook to chat with their friends. Have you seen how popular BBM is? Not to mention WLM and Google Talk.
Partly agree, Mango will make it a great OS and that's the OS that will sell people, not Verizon (which is US only) or Nokia, although they will help.
Unnecessary fanboyism. I'm a MS fan too but can't occult Windows Mobile 6.5, Zune or Kin as overall failures.
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People is very inclusive. I had to intentionally break my Live Tiles for them to stop working. But, I do agree Push Notifications needs work, however, this is not a vital piece of the phone, and none of the major apps even use it. I do get extremely irritated when Microsoft can't communicate with my phone and it returns back to the server that I can't be reached... It should continue to try... Which is unfortunate as it takes Rowi & such to provide fixes, which shows its possible to make them more reliable for now. Second, BBM isn't AIM, I would argue that GTalk or whatever the hell it is would be more important than AIM, and there are already alternates. I believe AIM is the only major player with no support, third party included, on the OS, but you need to understand that THIS generation of American teenagers relies more on FB & Skype/Oovoo than I did on AIM 10 years ago... AlphaJax may be as good, but it doesn't have the cross-platform ability of WWF, nor its popularity. Potential iPhone customers want to see the name WWF, and Angry Birds, not Alpha Jax and Chicks&Vixens...
For you to downplay the Verizon inclusion, or Nokia deal is ridiculous tho, and we usually agree issues from what I've seen. Verizon singlehandedly blew Android up. ALONE, Lol. They made Motorola relevant again too. Verizon and AT&T jumping on the WP7 bandwagon is important, extremely. Microsoft is an American company, and as we saw with Xbox, their American success determines how hard they pursue the rest of the world. WP7 MUST be a success here, and I believe it will be... Android is also in trouble, lots of it, legal wise from what I keep reading.
Fanboyism? WinMo was a success until the market changed lol, a huge success. They just didn't want to jump into the consumer market the way they should have, but WinMo was huge... So huge that it's still being developed for on here, when it's pretty useless when it comes to the average consumer. Kin was a failure because I'm almost positive they were using it as a guinea pig for their cloud services... Which sucks for those customers. The Zune wasn't a failure either, they just didn't back it with the necessary advertising. But as far as a product, it was extremely successful, and it most cases, better than the iPod... And it led the way to this OS...
Microsoft has a history of pouring money into things it wants to succeed until it gets it right... I just see that. Apple got "lucky" with the iPhone, and they've run with it. And the iPhone has singlehandedly made they cool enough to own all of their products. But I see Microsoft's attempt to integrate everything now as a "we'll own these markets if it kills us" approach.

FiyaFleye said:
People is very inclusive. I had to intentionally break my Live Tiles for them to stop working. But, I do agree Push Notifications needs work, however, this is not a vital piece of the phone, and none of the major apps even use it. I do get extremely irritated when Microsoft can't communicate with my phone and it returns back to the server that I can't be reached... It should continue to try... Which is unfortunate as it takes Rowi & such to provide fixes, which shows its possible to make them more reliable for now. Second, BBM isn't AIM, I would argue that GTalk or whatever the hell it is would be more important than AIM, and there are already alternates. I believe AIM is the only major player with no support, third party included, on the OS, but you need to understand that THIS generation of American teenagers relies more on FB & Skype/Oovoo than I did on AIM 10 years ago... AlphaJax may be as good, but it doesn't have the cross-platform ability of WWF, nor its popularity. Potential iPhone customers want to see the name WWF, and Angry Birds, not Alpha Jax and Chicks&Vixens...
For you to downplay the Verizon inclusion, or Nokia deal is ridiculous tho, and we usually agree issues from what I've seen. Verizon singlehandedly blew Android up. ALONE, Lol. They made Motorola relevant again too. Verizon and AT&T jumping on the WP7 bandwagon is important, extremely. Microsoft is an American company, and as we saw with Xbox, their American success determines how hard they pursue the rest of the world. WP7 MUST be a success here, and I believe it will be... Android is also in trouble, lots of it, legal wise from what I keep reading.
Fanboyism? WinMo was a success until the market changed lol, a huge success. They just didn't want to jump into the consumer market the way they should have, but WinMo was huge... So huge that it's still being developed for on here, when it's pretty useless when it comes to the average consumer. Kin was a failure because I'm almost positive they were using it as a guinea pig for their cloud services... Which sucks for those customers. The Zune wasn't a failure either, they just didn't back it with the necessary advertising. But as far as a product, it was extremely successful, and it most cases, better than the iPod... And it led the way to this OS...
Microsoft has a history of pouring money into things it wants to succeed until it gets it right... I just see that. Apple got "lucky" with the iPhone, and they've run with it. And the iPhone has singlehandedly made they cool enough to own all of their products. But I see Microsoft's attempt to integrate everything now as a "we'll own these markets if it kills us" approach.
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- Teenagers might rely more on facebook but remember teenagers aren't the target from what MS stated last year. IM might still be the best option.
- Agreed on WWF, didn't know it was cross-platform. Don't get me started on Xbox Live.
- Maybe it's best to focus on other territories just as much, if not more than on the US. Verizon isn't in Europe but Android are still selling like hot cakes.
The key IMO is to have the best possible OS and as many carriers onboard as possible. I'm not downplaying Verizon, just stating doing well in the US isn't the end of the road (e.g. the Xbox 360 is behind the PS3 in worldwide sales).
The Nokia deal is great but many people have stayed with Nokia for Symbian (oddly enough) so not all users will carry over to WP7.
Let the OS do the talking is what I say, more than Verizon and Nokia.
- Yes Winmo was a success, I specifically said Winmo 6.5 which was an attempt to stay relevant in a changing market. That didn't work.
Zune was/is a great player (I went through 2) but it wasn't a success, which was the point I was arguing.
Kin was a failure, I'm sure they believed in it. Just like Zune it can bring great features to WP7 though.
So you must admit that your "MS never lose" was a bit pushing it, I'm sure other people can find other examples.
I'm just as optimistic as you are probably for WP7, it's just that I don't see it as a walk in the park at all.

you need to understand that THIS generation of American teenagers relies more on FB & Skype/Oovoo than I did on AIM 10 years ago... AlphaJax may be as good, but it doesn't have the cross-platform ability of WWF, nor its popularity. Potential iPhone customers want to see the name WWF, and Angry Birds, not Alpha Jax and Chicks&Vixens...
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Is this a teenage phone? You may be on to something here.
For you to downplay the Verizon inclusion, or Nokia deal is ridiculous tho, and we usually agree issues from what I've seen. Verizon singlehandedly blew Android up. ALONE, Lol.
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So verizon made a ton of different Androids, and sold them around the world to zillions of people. Don't let a single ad campaign fool you. You have to forget about HTC, Samsung, and Motorola to say that. I can guarantee you, it won't happen for WP.
Microsoft is an American company, and as we saw with Xbox, their American success determines how hard they pursue the rest of the world. WP7 MUST be a success here, and I believe it will be... Android is also in trouble, lots of it, legal wise from what I keep reading.
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OMG, the Xbox crutch. Stop it. Microsoft is a consumer failure, and you guys rely on this one product to measure its success.
Also, you know Oracle had to drop 98% of their claims against Android.
Fanboyism? WinMo was a success until the market changed lol, a huge success.
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A huge success? Please stop it. The sales have never been great. The HD2 is the highest selling Microsoft phone EVER.
Kin was a failure because I'm almost positive they were using it as a guinea pig for their cloud services... Which sucks for those customers.
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No, the company you praise called Verizon made Kin fail. It had a high ass smartphone data plan.
The Zune wasn't a failure either, they just didn't back it with the necessary advertising. But as far as a product, it was extremely successful, and it most cases, better than the iPod... And it led the way to this OS...
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It was better than the iPod, it just didn't do as much as the iPod. Zune wasn't a success either. Stop it. Everyone knows it wasn't.
Microsoft has a history of pouring money into things it wants to succeed until it gets it right... I just see that.
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Name 4 consumer products that succeeded from Microsoft. Products that don't involve another corporation or OEM, Microsoft consumer products. I'll start
1. Xbox
2. ?
3. ?
4. ?
Apple got "lucky" with the iPhone, and they've run with it. And the iPhone has singlehandedly made they cool enough to own all of their products. But I see Microsoft's attempt to integrate everything now as a "we'll own these markets if it kills us" approach.
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They got lucky with the iPhone? Sure my friend, lets not go there.

Peew971 said:
- Teenagers might rely more on facebook but remember teenagers aren't the target from what MS stated last year. IM might still be the best option.
- Agreed on WWF, didn't know it was cross-platform. Don't get me started on Xbox Live.
- Maybe it's best to focus on other territories just as much, if not more than on the US. Verizon isn't in Europe but Android are still selling like hot cakes.
The key IMO is to have the best possible OS and as many carriers onboard as possible. I'm not downplaying Verizon, just stating doing well in the US isn't the end of the road (e.g. the Xbox 360 is behind the PS3 in worldwide sales).
The Nokia deal is great but many people have stayed with Nokia for Symbian (oddly enough) so not all users will carry over to WP7.
Let the OS do the talking is what I say, more than Verizon and Nokia.
- Yes Winmo was a success, I specifically said Winmo 6.5 which was an attempt to stay relevant in a changing market. That didn't work.
Zune was/is a great player (I went through 2) but it wasn't a success, which was the point I was arguing.
Kin was a failure, I'm sure they believed in it. Just like Zune it can bring great features to WP7 though.
So you must admit that your "MS never lose" was a bit pushing it, I'm sure other people can find other examples.
I'm just as optimistic as you are probably for WP7, it's just that I don't see it as a walk in the park at all.
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XBL is hindered by the lack of APIs, we both know that. We're going to see multiplayer the second Mango lands, I'll bet anything on that. Also, the OS can do all it wants, but when HTC and such put horrible quality cameras, and hardware on these devices, it's going to hinder their sales. I've been fortunate, but others haven't in terms of cameras and such.
About Android, they're about to have that success because of their explosion here though, and that's my point. Microsoft needs to succeed on its turf before it can succeed everywhere, same as Google did with Verizon.
And the PS3 might be ahead in lifetime sales, but my point is that now the 360 is the #1 platform afaik... And has been for a significant while now. And like I said about the Kin, I don't think they ever cared about the Kin, just what it offered, and how they could test their cloud services... At least it seemed like it. they released the Kin after development of WP started... Which leads me to believe they weren't in it for the long run.

vetvito said:
Probably the best thing they can do right now. The OS is dead until Mango/Nokia. When Nokia devices hit with Mango I expect to see a huge spike in sales and development.
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It's not dead. Not by a long shot..
WP7 has slow adoption rates but it's doing fine. The general public who buys most of this stuff has no idea Mango exists or what it would do for them.
WP7 is a great, feature rich, easy to use and elegant OS. It has what it needs to excel it just needs more advertising and some kick ass hardware like Android has been getting.
Updates like Mango only appeal to the very small number of enthusiasts such as ourselves.

It depends on how you define dead. Form a development perspective it's dead. There are too many things you simply can't do on the platform, nad there are too many apps that are impossible to port due to the lack of APIs. From that point of view it's dead. Mango will change that. Mango will also make the platform more desireable because it won't be seen as a dead end for so many people, as WP7 currently is with it's limitations and lack of top/useful apps.
If you mean dead by ceasing to exist than that's not possible, not even Windows Mobile is dead yet, if going by that definition.
But there cannot be much momentum for WP7 until Mango hits. The OS was released in a state that simply doesn't allow it at the moment.
If you look at WP7 and Mango the way Microsoft looks at them: two completely different OS releases instead of a base OS and an update or SP, then the average consumer who brought these devices and were forced (using the term loosely) to use it in its current state should be pretty pissed, IMO. I think Microsoft would have struggled to sell half the devices they did if they told users up front they'd have to wait a year for a decent feature update before it RTM'd...
The way they view it, trying to justify the current state of the OS with Mango is like trying to justify RTM Vista using Windows 7 as a rebuttal. It just doesn't work, especially when users have months of this clunky user experience to look forward to before they get an update, and lord knows how to carriers will handle that...

N8ter said:
The problem with Skype isn't really its existence or lack thereof. It's the fact that major players like Google and Microsoft do not have decent mobile clients. Windows Live Messenger supports VoIP and Video Calling. So did Google Talk and look how long it took Google to add it into Android. I'm unsure if Micorsoft is adding this in Mango, but we don't know all the details.
Read reviews online. Most people who post them want Skype for the Video Calling and Free Skype to Skype VoIP. With the proliferation of Smartphones these days, in many cases it's just dumb to pay Skype anything when you can have your friends install the app and do it all for free, Lol.
Google and Microsoft have the capacity to offer those same services with a better user experience. They just need to get off of their asses and do it. Skype hysteria is completely due to services like WLM and Google Talk sucking on smartphones.
Then again, Skype would probably file AntiTrust suits against them if they did that
I've never understood people who were all "SKYPE SKYPE SKYPE!" when they really should be saying "fix your fking mobile clients so we don't have to install this boring battery hogging app that restricts functionality on various platforms because they have carrier deals" and things like that.
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windows Live/Massanger whatever you call it will be built in/integrated in the contacts/people tile.
MS is trying to buy Skype, or joint venture, so u will see video call on WP7.5 devices...

N8ter said:
It depends on how you define dead. Form a development perspective it's dead. There are too many things you simply can't do on the platform, nad there are too many apps that are impossible to port due to the lack of APIs.
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Last time I checked, Marketplace was doing just fine for a platform that's 6 months old. I agree there are gaps in functionality and things devs can't do, but does it warrant the term "dead" really?
N8ter said:
But there cannot be much momentum for WP7 until Mango hits. The OS was released in a state that simply doesn't allow it at the moment.
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Mango schmango. WP7 won't have any serious marketshare until it gets dozens of devices and worldwide distribution. Even if it were the most functional thing in the world it would still need it, otherwise it's doomed to linger in the WebOS type of marketshare limbo.
Oh, and a couple of "flagships", too.
N8ter said:
If you look at WP7 and Mango the way Microsoft looks at them: two completely different OS releases instead of a base OS and an update or SP, then the average consumer who brought these devices and were forced (using the term loosely) to use it in its current state should be pretty pissed, IMO.
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Why should I be pissed, sorry?

vetvito said:
Probably the best thing they can do right now. The OS is dead until Mango/Nokia. When Nokia devices hit with Mango I expect to see a huge spike in sales and development.
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Waiting for this but i'm not holding my breath. With their track record, this Mango update could get released waaay late 2011 or early 2012. Maybe when the flagship Nokia/WP7 comes out with better specs than what is present (3year? old specs), and IF they expand their marketplace/zune support to include my country, with way better apps and games that are worth the Xbox Live logo ( Lunar Lander anyone?) i'll consider picking one up again (gave my HTC Trophy to my sister).

Seriously, this is just a preview. Stop complaining people.
We are going to have everything we asked for!
Messenger, Skype, Twitter and Facebook inside our OS like no other.
Better push notifications, faster, more reliable.
API, API, API and more API.
IE9
Multi Task for third apps(!!!!!!!!!!!)
New languages, dictionarys, markets..
And bug corrections.
What more do you want? Microsoft wouldn't announce something like "Oh, and it download embedded images from email. It's magical!".
Or you expect they to mention something stupid like that?
Wait and try the OS by yourself.
Usually, I'm complaining about MS and their failures. But.. Seriously, they're doing everything fine about Mango. At least, until now.
I bet someone will say "oh, it doesn't have video chat". Screw it. No one uses it. Even the 'Almighty' Android doesn't have it. Guess just now, and just for Nexus S. No one really care. It's just to say "I have it!".
Stop complaining for nothing. Microsoft is doing great!

vetvito said:
^ I can agree with that. Early adopters will be the one's screwed over.
I also believe Nokia will be the only maker of WP devices, if not the only, they will be the most dominant. That is if, they stop their other projects.
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Why? I think the samsung devices are doing fine, once mango has more languages a new major part of the world will start buying the devices. Right now if a phone is not in your native language a lot of people are not interested thus it is not marketed in those countries (half of europe). Imagine these markets which are very wealthy countries (some of the most wealthy countries actually) start to buy wp7. In these countries the design of the software is very important, maybe even more important than the features and if HTC will also design good devices along with Samsung I think they will stay. The people who've seen my phone asked me what it was and if I like it. I say yes, however native language support + multitasking + next level apps (all comming with mango) will really make it a superb platform.
Most guys here are phone tweakers, dont forget the majority of the customers are not like us and if they see some well designed apps like IMDB they are sold.
The reality at the moment is no native language for those countries, buggy features because of the system locale settings, no marketing/advertisement, no possibility yet to BUY apps (yes this is very important for a smartphone). Once Mango drops the word will spread and it will surely count. Samsung who sells a lot of its devices on these markets will see boosts in sales, I can see people being done with android or BB or iphone after those years of the same lay-out, so a change to WP7 will be very logical and if all desired features will be there people will enjoy it and tell their friends,