according to microsoft, windows8 will be for phones, desktops, tablets, everywhere windows lives now. after watching 3-4 demos on youtube there are a few things that makes me wonder about:
1 filesystem access - it shows the table accessing a usb stick and drag/drop copying
2 explorer (the file explorer)
3 full desktop shell as an app
4 wireless status as a widget
5 a much more customizable 'home' or whatever its being called now
if you've seen the videos, or had your hands on one - what do you think the possibilities are for wp7 evolving into a full blown OS like what is being demo'd as windows8 ?
do you think wp8 will be a registry restricted (mild restriction to prevent confusion) version of windows 8 ?
would you be interested in a full blown (non-phone specific) wp8 handset, essentially a desktop in your pocket, able to use a keyboard and mouse with ?
is the tablet version (form factor) more appealing as a full OS, instead of a phone (form factor) to you ?
^ why ?
hmmm
...I believe that a lot of peoples are having problems to understand:
- WP7x is the OS for smart phones
- Windows 8 is the OS for tabletts and desktop PCs with the possibility to interact - but only to a certain extend - with WP7x It definitely won't replace WP7x. and the features you are mentioning will not be build into WP7x. At least not for the time being or if so, only via some homebrews by our xda-developers friends..
Yeah the OP got somethings wrong there. This is what MS envisions:
Phone: Windows Phone 7/8
Xbox: Xbox metro dashboard (coming this fall)
PCs (including desktops, laptops, slates/tablets etc.): Windows 8
What Windows Phone 7/8 and Windows 8 will have in common is probably the way apps are written (at least C# or VB + XAML) and the interactivity using SkyDrive.
Windows 8 will of course things like File access and the traditional desktop, but WP will not and there is no need to do so.
A phone should stay a phone and a PC should stay a PC.
Sent from my GT-I5800 using XDA App
FTC said:
...I believe that a lot of peoples are having problems to understand:
- WP7x is the OS for smart phones
- Windows 8 is the OS for tabletts and desktop PCs with the possibility to interact - but only to a certain extend - with WP7x It definitely won't replace WP7x. and the features you are mentioning will not be build into WP7x. At least not for the time being or if so, only via some homebrews by our xda-developers friends..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is correct.
slimshady322 said:
Yeah the OP got somethings wrong there. This is what MS envisions:
Phone: Windows Phone 7/8
Xbox: Xbox metro dashboard (coming this fall)
PCs (including desktops, laptops, slates/tablets etc.): Windows 8
What Windows Phone 7/8 and Windows 8 will have in common is probably the way apps are written (at least C# or VB + XAML) and the interactivity using SkyDrive.
Windows 8 will of course things like File access and the traditional desktop, but WP will not and there is no need to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, do you have any links for future reading ? (Thanks used)
Based on what I've read, I don't think the OP has really missed anything, but may have misinterpreted the timetable. Even Paul Thurrott has made that same speculation.
Microsoft is planning to have a single ecosystem for all platforms (including phones). They have stated as much. Whether they will "get there" with Windows 8 is doubtful, but they will get there.
One common speculation is that, as a first step toward ecosystem unification, Windows 8 will be able to run any WP7 app (and, presumably, some Windows 8 apps will also run on phones).
I don't really have any links, but it seems obvious that MS is trying to get their metro interface into all their devices (Xbox, PC and phone). The similarities should be striking.
As others have said, Windows 8 will not be on phones, but their will be things shared for example with SkyDrive, you can upload your photos from WP7 and you can also directly view photos from SkyDrive (and other locations) on Windows 8. Xbox uses SkyDrive to save game files etc.
I personally doubt that Windows Phone 7 app will run on Windows 8. If you look at the current developer tools, there are a lot of differences between WP7 and Windows 8. Yes, they both can use C# + XAML so you can share code, but you will have to do device specific changes.
MS might make this easier in the future but some adjustments will probably have to be made. If they simply made some kind of WP7 emulator for Windows 8, things would not fit the entire screen and you might see too many pixels.
And finally, yes I have also heard the rumor that MS wants to have one OS for all devices: the PC (including tablets), the Xbox and phones.
However, this is still far off and will not be coming in Windows 8 or Windows Phone 8 (Apollo). It has been rumored to be the masterplan for way ahead (like 2016 with Windows 9, Windows Phone 9 and the third Xbox (however these things will be called)).
But what works right now are all the live services. For example I could add a contact on my WP7 and then have their numbers etc. available on my Windows 8 slate without the need to manually transfer the contact over.
I would love the OP's dream come true but I don't think so. It doesn't look like WP8 will go Android route (but what do we know in the end).
There are enough people in MS industry thinking better what users want than users themselves and claiming that a phone should be dumb enough.
What I see from Windows 8 previews I'd say it can be amazing OS anyway.
slimshady322 said:
I personally doubt that Windows Phone 7 app will run on Windows 8. If you look at the current developer tools, there are a lot of differences between WP7 and Windows 8. Yes, they both can use C# + XAML so you can share code, but you will have to do device specific changes.
MS might make this easier in the future but some adjustments will probably have to be made. If they simply made some kind of WP7 emulator for Windows 8, things would not fit the entire screen and you might see too many pixels.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Building a wp7 emulator into Windows 8 would not be that difficult. Running a WP7 app could create a rectangle in the center of the screen that matches the dimensions of a WP7 device, and darkens the remaining screen while the app has focus.
slimshady322 said:
And finally, yes I have also heard the rumor that MS wants to have one OS for all devices: the PC (including tablets), the Xbox and phones.
However, this is still far off and will not be coming in Windows 8 or Windows Phone 8 (Apollo). It has been rumored to be the masterplan for way ahead (like 2016 with Windows 9, Windows Phone 9 and the third Xbox (however these things will be called)).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is kind of what I was thinking too. Not for Windows 8, but very likely for Windows 9 (or maybe they could accomplish it in a ".5" release, but I doubt that).
The point is, assuming WP7 survives the next few years (which is looking much better as Mango gets closer), there will be a time when Microsoft has a single OS that spans all devices.
RoboDad said:
Building a wp7 emulator into Windows 8 would not be that difficult. Running a WP7 app could create a rectangle in the center of the screen that matches the dimensions of a WP7 device, and darkens the remaining screen while the app has focus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it would work but it would be just like iPhone Apps on the iPad, webOS phone apps on the Touchpad or android phone apps on an android tablet.
Working, but not looking very good.
I have currently one app in the windows phone marketplace and I would like to bring it to Windows 8 as well but I will do some adjustments. Just one example:
Many apps feature lists that are scrollable vertically (like the contacts list). Tapping on one item opens up another page with details.
On the phone this works fine, but on Windows 8 there would be a couple of problems:
1) Windows 8 rather has lists that you scroll horizontally (the new Grid View in the developer tools)
2) You would waste a lot of screen space. A better solution would be to have a split view with the list on the left and the details on the right. Thus, the list would stay visible.
Acutally when writing about this I though of a very good example: the settings in WP7 and Windows 8.
WP7:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
A list of the different things you can scroll and tapping brings you to the selected item (as seen on the right)
Windows 8:
The list is only on the left and you can still see the list while opening up single item.
TL;DR: Basically what I want to say is that while WP7 app might work on Windows 8, it would be better if developers for Windows 8 (and there are many) were to adjust their apps to make them work better on Windows 8.
I don't think Windows 8 needs WP7 apps, many apps will probably be ported and adjustments will be made and there will be many Windows 8 developers that did not develop for WP7.
RoboDad said:
That is kind of what I was thinking too. Not for Windows 8, but very likely for Windows 9 (or maybe they could accomplish it in a ".5" release, but I doubt that).
The point is, assuming WP7 survives the next few years (which is looking much better as Mango gets closer), there will be a time when Microsoft has a single OS that spans all devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would really like MS to do this, but is has to be done good and not the way webOS or Android did it.
One app could then be written for all devices and all the app would have to do is adjust itself according to screen size. You could share most code for all version and only have some layout changes that depend on the resolution.
We can dream, but MS has been screaming the same story for over a decade.
The touch optimized part (basically "what looks like wp7 atm) of Win8 will be on tablets, pcs and phones. While the non-touch optimized part will be exclusive to pcs.
Related
Hi All,
It's all great to hear Microsoft officially announces the "Windows Phone 7 Series". Another Mobile OS, put there to compete with other OS's.
But I want to know one thing =>
Am I the only one that find the general UI of "Windows Phone 7" unattractive, "nothing special" and bore-some?
The moment I saw the "Start screen", I said to myself: "Damn, is this the UI Microsoft wanna use to show its competitiveness to other OS's??? ". From my point of view, the look of winmo 6.5.3 on the freshly announced HTC HD mini is WAY BETTER than that of Windows Phone 7.
This is just my opinion, now, what's your opinion about the UI?
johnlujl123 said:
Hi All,
It's all great to hear Microsoft officially announces the "Windows Phone 7 Series". Another Mobile OS, put there to compete with other OS's.
But I want to know one thing =>
Am I the only one that find the general UI of "Windows Phone 7" unattractive, "nothing special" and bore-some?
The moment I saw the "Start screen", I said to myself: "Damn, is this the UI Microsoft wanna use to show its competitiveness to other OS's??? ". From my point of view, the look of winmo 6.5.3 on the freshly announced HTC HD mini is WAY BETTER than that of Windows Phone 7.
This is just my opinion, now, what's your opinion about the UI?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would disagree. I like the visuals. On the contrary, the look is NEW and NOT FAST!!
Everyone has there opinions and taste. I honestly love what MS has done with the revisions. I think visuals are truly innovative and elegant. The animations are uncanny. I do agree the home screen is dull and boring, but the rest of the OS is vibrant. Here's some screen shots from my post. Head over to my post to see the rest, there's like 20 more photos...: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=634429
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
I do like it as well...looks fresh but whether it is good to use on a daily basis remains to be prooven!
And BTW: the look of the new SenseUI Builds really annoys me! til Version 2.1 everything was fine...but the new ones??? No way.
I won't talk about looks here, because that's personal taste.
Moreover, what counts is functionality - how easy and fast it gets the job done.
This is easily and by far the best and most well thought through UI I've ever seen.
I particularly like
- the ability to pin pretty much everything to the first page (but unlike Sense, as many things as you want), whether it's contacts, programs or whatever
- the things you pin to the first page not being static, but also showing information - a very clever way to bring together the iPhone's icon-based home screen with Windows Mobile's information based home screen.
- the navigation through the pages, with the text on top going out of the screen to show you that there's more you can discover by swiping left/right
- the panorama backgrounds on all the screens (cover arts in music, a random picture in photos etc.)
- the ability for third party developers to integrate their stuff (like additional social networks or streaming services) into the hubs (I hope there will be a lot of freedom for third parties to do so!).
- the seamless integration of all kinds of services in general, whether it's Exchange, Windows Live (finally!!), Facebook...
I also particularly like that some good concepts from previous Windows Mobile versions have been preserved:
- long press menus
- softkeys
- quick search through any list (in WM6.5, it was the keyboard icon, now it's the required search button)
Those enable a consistent UI throughout all applications, contrary to the mess you find on the iPhone, where important buttons like "back" are in different places depending on the application you're in.
What I do NOT like:
- The all applications list: That should be a grid, cause there's lots of wasted space there.
- There seems to be no easy way to get to the music controls while music is playing in the background.
- Apparently there is no easy way to switch between running applications, this seems to work much like WM6.5, with the back button taking you to the application you used before. This is a mess, the back button should open some kind of task switcher instead.
I love the new start menu in Windows Phone 7. Titanium didn't display enough information on the home page, requiring you to hover over items to see information. Windows Mobile 6.1 today screens were too small to tap. Sense is either functional (icons for quick launching) or informational (clock), but never both at the same time. Why doesn't the launch icon for Messenger show me the latest messages I have? Why don't my contacts' icons show me the latest interaction I had with them?
Windows Phone 7 adds all of those in a simple, attractive UI. You can give a Windows Phone 7 to any person and they'd probably be able to use it, but give Sense to a person and they might not. (you might think the contrary... I thought Sense was easy to use, until I saw my peers struggle with it and typing on the keyboard... on a HD2...)
Agree with you all!
Yes, you guys are right! Looks are personal taste!
But right now, which OS would you choose, out of the following: Windows Phone 7, WebOS or Android?? My choice goes to Android!
freyberry said:
What I do NOT like:
- The all applications list: That should be a grid, cause there's lots of wasted space there.
- There seems to be no easy way to get to the music controls while music is playing in the background.
- Apparently there is no easy way to switch between running applications, this seems to work much like WM6.5, with the back button taking you to the application you used before. This is a mess, the back button should open some kind of task switcher instead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure how important the applications list is going to be going forward. With the way apps can integrate into the "hubs" I think you will not be using this list very often.
I'm hoping the music controls function like the ZuneHD. The ZuneHD has a dedicated media control button that brings up a screen overlay when pressed. This overlay allows you to pause/play, skip/fast forward/rewind and increase/decrease volume. Also, on the ZuneHD, you can pause and play a song by tapping the album art.
I am very eager to see how the multitasking works/doesn't work when they show the SDK at MIX next month.
Overall, I love the UI. It seems like an evolution of the ZuneHD to me.
johnlujl123 said:
Yes, you guys are right! Looks are personal taste!
But right now, which OS would you choose, out of the following: Windows Phone 7, WebOS or Android?? My choice goes to Android!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android, of course. WP7 is OS for feature phones (dumbphones) just like iPhone OS is.
johnlujl123 said:
Yes, you guys are right! Looks are personal taste!
But right now, which OS would you choose, out of the following: Windows Phone 7, WebOS or Android?? My choice goes to Android!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android
I actually have three upgrade eligibilities this year. If the rumor about the SE X10 coming to ATT is true, that will be one of them. I will also wait and see what Android phones HTC sends to ATT.
I will also, without any doubt, reserve one of the upgrades for WMP7. I had very low expectations for MS and WMP7 but I was very impressed with what they showed on Monday. I can't wait for MIX to see the rest.
Of course, I'm a phone whore so I am never completely satisfied anyway!
In my opinion I think the UI looks awesome. It's unique, fresh, new, & looks like nothing else (excluding the Zune HD). the start menu & the App list look a little bit dull but the whole Hubs system just looks wonderful. I like the new idea of the context menus. WinPho 7 is not evolution from the previous WM, it is Revolution.
From a UI perspective I really like the thought behind it. It's pretty much a directory structure that's self organizing with a 'splash' screen for each directory. I have alot of applications stored on my wm device that I store over various folders. Directories are a good way of organizing sizable amounts of information. This UI is basically an improvement to that age old structure, putting some transparency on this structured yet intuitive setup.
It's visually impressive, yet does not have that bells and whistle feel that can get stale.
But I take objection to their comments that a phone is not a PC. That's the wrong message to send. A PC just stands for personal computer...you can't get more PC than a handheld device. It's clearly a PC, the message they should send is that it's not a desktop, it's not a laptop, it's a handheld device. While still a PC you expect a suitable UI to pair with each version of a PC you interact with.
From a marketing perspective, I think the windows phone 7 would mesh well with their 'I'm a PC' marketing campaign. A commercial seeing someone working on a desktop/laptop and then using mobile office, and exchange to take that to your phone would be a great commercial to make.
Microsoft is missing the picture with that overly simplistic comment.
If I could carry the power of my desktop with me, I would just need different display devices with the appropriate UI to interact with my PC. That's really the destiny of computers...well not even to carry the hardware, but to just have different methods of display and interaction with a single device. So you can sit down at a kb and mouse, or pick a up a multitouch display, or take a handheld on a train with you but still have common storage, and processing.
Great UI.
But I am not happy that it requires a minimum of 1GHz processor. Even then the graphics rendering especially the Album scrolling is not very fluid. That was very cleary observed in Joe's Demo considering that he hand only a handhul of pictures. My iphone has @3500 pictures and I can scroll through it like water flowing across the screen.
This version of WP7 is not my favorite. I like the other betas.
chiks19018 said:
Great UI.
But I am not happy that it requires a minimum of 1GHz processor. Even then the graphics rendering especially the Album scrolling is not very fluid. That was very cleary observed in Joe's Demo considering that he hand only a handhul of pictures. My iphone has @3500 pictures and I can scroll through it like water flowing across the screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And this was a demo of pre-release software. I wouldn't put any weight behind the peformance that was shown in the demo. It will almost certainly be much improved before the RTM.
naplesbill said:
And this was a demo of pre-release software. I wouldn't put any weight behind the peformance that was shown in the demo. It will almost certainly be much improved before the RTM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I definitely hope that is the case. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Rim1Flex said:
This version of WP7 is not my favorite. I like the other betas.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How about "accidentally" uploading one for the HD2?
freyberry said:
How about "accidentally" uploading one for the HD2?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It won't work it needs 2GHz processor. You will have to overclock,haha just kidding.
My biggest concern with this new OS is the "need" to integrate with social networks. I'm by no means interested to see the status messages my friends/collegues post on facebook, twitter, linkedin, myspace etc. Also, WM7 is pointing towarsds xbox live integration, which will -as I understood- in basics also be used as a new "Microsoft hardware only" social network.
Another thing that bothers me about the new UI is that it looks slowish, even in a demo.. Doesn't look too appealing yet so far!
Cool...
10things im waiting for
1.a good 10+ megapixel phone
2.a good 3+ megapixel front camera for 3g calls
3.facetime like service
4.unlocked marketplace for India
5.bluetooth/wifi/3g gaming
6.xbox controller
7.Nokia E90 like hardware and many other form-factors
8.high fps slow motion camera
9.wireless charging
10.Augmented Reality Games with wireless AR goggles
11.User Modes: "Admin" "guest" "user"[dont reply about security breaches. still its cool to have when Apple can snoop me on my gps]
Admin: Selecting few contacts and granting them admin previledges should allow them to control your mobile remotely and read/write gallery, contacts, sms, reset[everything]
Guest: if you select few contacts as "guest" they can be controlled by you...
you can set rules "do not disturb" from "9AM till 6PM" and "sat,sun" etc
Users: if your friend wants to borrow your phone for a week. dont panic. just create a user and insert his sim. he can use all the phone features except admin settings. all your data will be hidden
after return you can delete his user account or just switch over to yours.
The xbox thing is coming. You can control some kinect games with WP7. The rest sound good. Not sure about 11. Sounds a bit too complex for a mobile OS
12. Wi-Fi hotspot (built in, not carrrer addon)
13. direct file access (use part of storage to be able to use a WP7 device as a USB drive and access it on phone)
14. Remote Desktop app (RDC)
tomakali said:
Cool...
11.User Modes: "Admin" "guest" "user"[dont reply about security breaches. still its cool to have when Apple can snoop me on my gps]
Admin: Selecting few contacts and granting them admin previledges should allow them to control your mobile remotely and read/write gallery, contacts, sms, reset[everything]
Guest: if you select few contacts as "guest" they can be controlled by you...
you can set rules "do not disturb" from "9AM till 6PM" and "sat,sun" etc
Users: if your friend wants to borrow your phone for a week. dont panic. just create a user and insert his sim. he can use all the phone features except admin settings. all your data will be hidden
after return you can delete his user account or just switch over to yours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't want my data in someone elses hands. better to fully backup the phone, wipe, let the friend use it, and restore later imho.
moving the phones restore image off to a computer is a good idea too.
15. More "open" OS for 3rd Party Apps (like install a ".cab" in WM6.5)
16. Custom Ringtone, no need to "developer unlocked and then install XAP..."
17. An Official Windows Phone Device Center, like Windows Mobile Device Center for WM6.5. Sync to Office, Outlook...
18. A "Task Manager" so we can shut some **** stuffs off to save battery. (which i found really usefull in WM6.5) . Also have a option to shut down the application completely while using it
19. Bing support in Asia ( better be, but i am not going to stay at my hometown for a longtime, i will stay here, where Bing does support, LOL)
20. Better build-in Facebook (Not Facebook Apps), notifications, images, video, view post... all from People Hub ( i found the Facebook Apps is kind of annoying if you don't have 3G and have to use EGPRS...)
21. Hopefully, Microsoft will let HTC build their custom Windows Phone 7 version, or modifield deep down inside the "Cores" of Windows Phone 7, so we can get something like a HTC Sense for WP7, or HTC Sense Metro-UI Style.
22. Support better Multi-Tasking
23. Upgrade Security Level for WP7 if possible ( i thought about this when i read the thread of somebody here lost his HD7 and found out that he could not find his phone or lock it Through Live because everything based on the Simcard Inside)
24. Better MMS Build-in system (sometime, i find it really hard to download the picture that my friend send to me through MMS)
25. Video Call ( i have seen the new HTC's Device that run WP7, has the 16MP Camera. It has the front camera, so hopefully we gonna get it)
26. Improve/Optimize Performance... I don't know why, maybe because of WP7, maybe because of the maker, but my WP7's Fruit Ninja is not as smooth as iPhone's or Android's Fruit Ninja.
Strike_Eagle said:
15. More "open" OS for 3rd Party Apps (like install a ".cab" in WM6.5)
16. Custom Ringtone, no need to "developer unlocked and then install XAP..."
17. An Official Windows Phone Device Center, like Windows Mobile Device Center for WM6.5. Sync to Office, Outlook...
18. A "Task Manager" so we can shut some **** stuffs off to save battery. (which i found really usefull in WM6.5) . Also have a option to shut down the application completely while using it
19. Bing support in Asia ( better be, but i am not going to stay at my hometown for a longtime, i will stay here, where Bing does support, LOL)
20. Better build-in Facebook (Not Facebook Apps), notifications, images, video, view post... all from People Hub ( i found the Facebook Apps is kind of annoying if you don't have 3G and have to use EGPRS...)
21. Hopefully, Microsoft will let HTC build their custom Windows Phone 7 version, or modifield deep down inside the "Cores" of Windows Phone 7, so we can get something like a HTC Sense for WP7, or HTC Sense Metro-UI Style.
22. Support better Multi-Tasking
23. Upgrade Security Level for WP7 if possible ( i thought about this when i read the thread of somebody here lost his HD7 and found out that he could not find his phone or lock it Through Live because everything based on the Simcard Inside)
24. Better MMS Build-in system (sometime, i find it really hard to download the picture that my friend send to me through MMS)
25. Video Call ( i have seen the new HTC's Device that run WP7, has the 16MP Camera. It has the front camera, so hopefully we gonna get it)
26. Improve/Optimize Performance... I don't know why, maybe because of WP7, maybe because of the maker, but my WP7's Fruit Ninja is not as smooth as iPhone's or Android's Fruit Ninja.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
almost all and more will be in with MANGO, you should watch JoeB's video interview for mix11.... there are so many cool featuers coming to WP7....
truffle1234 said:
almost all and more will be in with MANGO, you should watch JoeB's video interview for mix11.... there are so many cool featuers coming to WP7....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And so what? From current WP7 politics it looks like WP7 is NOT a important product for microsoft, so why should the bother about few customers. They are always selling only promises, and people are buying them, not a real functionality in software.
elektryk said:
And so what? From current WP7 politics it looks like WP7 is NOT a important product for microsoft, so why should the bother about few customers. They are always selling only promises, and people are buying them, not a real functionality in software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Troll much?
Microsoft understand about the "Smartphone" Cake. People now are relying more and more on their smartphone. They don't have time to wait for the full battery of the laptop or they don't have the strength of the Olympic Athletic to carry it everyday and run around. ( except for Sony Vaio Bussiness Series, but compare to a smartphone, they are still damn more expensive)?
They know how to listen to their customer, biggest example i can tell is Windows 7 (PC OS). Now they are doing good with Windows Phone 7. Even Windows Phone 7 is a new OS, i still feel good with it. Because it deploy and provide everything i need in my daylife. There are few to some lacks of feature or bug, but you need to learn how to accept and live with it, since Windows Phone is new and mistake is not avoid-able.
Windows Phone are having a great chance in Smartphone Market, since iOS is boring and no change between version and version. Android is getting heavier and heavier... ( don't be mad, but i had changed my HD7 for my friend's Desire HD. Android is fun to play around with, but the only thing i found it usefull, not by Android itself, but because of the HTC Sense. After 2 days of using, i could not wait for my HD7 back).
NO matter what you say, i do believe in Microsoft in this Project, and i do belive that Windows Phone will not let iOS and Android walk that easy. The problem that Microsoft need to solve is their estimate time of product realeasing... they delayed No-Do and that made me felt like crap.
elektryk said:
And so what? From current WP7 politics it looks like WP7 is NOT a important product for microsoft, so why should the bother about few customers. They are always selling only promises, and people are buying them, not a real functionality in software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
rubbish.... either u dont read news or just plain ignorrent... if WP7 is not an important product for MS why the hell they pay few billion to NOKIA to use WP7 on their hardware...
just wait and see what WP7 will do to the mobile industry....
to you functionality is scrwing up the mobile phone jsut like WM 6.5 and android did..... if you can tell me that WP7 do not work out of the box then i will believe you... dont tell me it cant work as wifi acces point, not a USB disk drive, or no bluetooth file transfer (those are all bull****....), i bought the phone sync my outlook contacts to windows live account and wala....
till today it did not hanged, freezed, and with the nodo update it even got better... mango will make it even better....
i am not here to say iOS or android is crap, but if u test iOS, Android and WP7 side by side.... as there are few videos of apple for apple test iOS v WP7.... iOS was 10 sec slower then WP7..... so just imeging what it will do to ANDROID...
Strike_Eagle said:
NO matter what you say, i do believe in Microsoft in this Project, and i do belive that Windows Phone will not let iOS and Android walk that easy. The problem that Microsoft need to solve is their estimate time of product realeasing... they delayed No-Do and that made me felt like crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you on all you said, I tried the Samsung galaxy s and it’s not as smooth as my HD7...
and for the first time MS have come out and said sorry for the delay in the NODO update release, JonB have apologized so many time to the users...
MIX11 interview video... can’t wait for the mango...
I am just waiting for NOKIA to start shipping the WP7 devices so I can have real good phone, and I believe HTC will have to do better than HD7 when nokia start to ship WP7..
tomakali said:
Cool...
10things im waiting for
1.a good 10+ megapixel phone
2.a good 3+ megapixel front camera for 3g calls
3.facetime like service
4.unlocked marketplace for India
5.bluetooth/wifi/3g gaming
6.xbox controller
7.Nokia E90 like hardware and many other form-factors
8.high fps slow motion camera
9.wireless charging
10.Augmented Reality Games with wireless AR goggles
11.User Modes: "Admin" "guest" "user"[dont reply about security breaches. still its cool to have when Apple can snoop me on my gps]
Admin: Selecting few contacts and granting them admin previledges should allow them to control your mobile remotely and read/write gallery, contacts, sms, reset[everything]
Guest: if you select few contacts as "guest" they can be controlled by you...
you can set rules "do not disturb" from "9AM till 6PM" and "sat,sun" etc
Users: if your friend wants to borrow your phone for a week. dont panic. just create a user and insert his sim. he can use all the phone features except admin settings. all your data will be hidden
after return you can delete his user account or just switch over to yours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
9.wireless charging
Yes and then you want world peace
Have you ever use a WP7 device ??? Real use not just 1 day playing ...
As a phone not as a psp console???
M8 Those devices do things rigth for the 80% of the users out there ..
Its only 8 months old OS...Did you forget iOS or Android how where in the first 8 months ????
It will be better (away better) with mango and way better than any os was in the 1 year.
So be cool and wait ...for the world peace
colossus_r said:
Its only 8 months old OS...Did you forget iOS or Android how where in the first 8 months ????
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you mean MS has started WP7 8 months ago, or it is 8 months on market? I can understand that this system is 8 months on market, so there is no good "navigation" software with offline maps, but microsoft has much more time to prepare its product. WM6.5 has been developed from original windows CE which was started aprox. 1997, so it tooks more then 10 years of "evolution" to get this OS functional and nice looking. Now WP7 is similar to Windows CE 2.0, it has "small version" of Word, Excel some applications made by hobbiest, and GUI which is so "creative" like Windows CE was in 1997. Only difference is faster and bigger hardware.
truffle1234 said:
to you functionality is scrwing up the mobile phone jsut like WM 6.5 and android did..... if you can tell me that WP7 do not work out of the box then i will believe you... dont tell me it cant work as wifi acces point, not a USB disk drive, or no bluetooth file transfer (those are all bull****....)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And if you compare WP7 phone to non-smartphone from 2005 it is fantastic. But today is 2011 and if you want to sell product you must compare it to competitors. WP7 was designed to be new trend in technology and showing future of this market and beeing revolutionary. Currently some non-smartphone phone has better functionality.
Strike_Eagle said:
Microsoft understand about the "Smartphone" Cake. People now are relying more and more on their smartphone. [...]
They know how to listen to their customer, biggest example i can tell is Windows 7 (PC OS). Now they are doing good with Windows Phone 7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this example should be understood different way. Microsoft has developed Windows 95 from a scratch, people were disapointed because there were problems with compatibility, but got used to this OS. Then were windows XP which brought more new technology, there were many problems but people accepted this OS. Then was few years without new OS and had appeared Windows Vista. It was criticized for many problems, and avoided in many areas. Now we have nice, quite stable Windows 7 which based on Vista. IMHO WP7 is still in "Vista" stage, maybe Mango will fix this, but I believe 2-3 updates which will bring so many changes as Mango will make this system like windows 7.
Strike_Eagle said:
NO matter what you say, i do believe in Microsoft in this Project, and i do belive that Windows Phone will not let iOS and Android walk that easy. The problem that Microsoft need to solve is their estimate time of product realeasing... they delayed No-Do and that made me felt like crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure if microsoft were founded 3 years ago, this mistakes can be forgiven. Nodo is a small part of functionality that was promissed.
truffle1234 said:
rubbish.... either u dont read news or just plain ignorrent... if WP7 is not an important product for MS why the hell they pay few billion to NOKIA to use WP7 on their hardware...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nokia is a different story, this company had lost so many chances. They had good quality phones, own OS (Symbian), they wanted to develop QT and now they are on the verge of bankruptcy. Why MS gave them money? I do not know, probably MS want to earn more money.
Microsoft thus so far have been focused on integrating personal computing (windows live, Facebook, Office, Zune) into there mobile devices whilst placing little focus on integrating WP7 or WM into there operating system. I assume Windows 8 will cater more to WP integration then windows 7 does but in a world fierce competition Microsoft should be looking to differentiate from the competition, adding value to the windows phone experience.
When i talk about integration with the windows operating system i am thinking along the lines of a windows VNC type application allowing control of numerous windows 7 functions from a WP7 device natively. Another idea is receiving text messages, calls and notifications on a Windows 7 device when connected to the same LAN with the appropriate software and being able to respond to these messages. Another obvious example is being able to control zune from your WP7 device allowing you to control volume and change songs. Control windows media center recording show is another example.
anyway i apologise for my rant its late and i was just thinking to my self, if you guys have any thoughts i would love to hear them.
Yes
Microsoft have already advertised for a developer(s) to do this for WP8 and (we assume) Windows 8. There was an article about it on pocketnow.com which you can probably find.
Cheers
andrew-in-woking
To the OP, yes I think it's where it's all going as well. I would love to see this "ecosystem" in 5 years, see what it looks like.
I really hope in the very near future that DLNA is improved by leaps and bounds. That's the start right there. I've got the Play-To on my phone, but officially it's "tied to Windows 7", so it can't link up to my blu-ray player, or my... xbox 360. Which doesn't make sense. It's the same company, you think that'd be a main selling feature.
I would absolutely love to see text message alerts through my operating system. I have always wished that either Zune or iTunes did this, but unfortunately they don't. +1 for this.
Windows 7 is already in it's final phase and if they're going to do integration, they're going to want to do Deep integration which would take a lot of time and edits to underlying code. There's just no point, Windows 8 will be out soon and it makes much more sense to just launch it with that.
Otherwise we'll get Windows 7 integration now and Windows 8 Integration months into its lifespan.
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Help over here too. If we get a lot of people to rant. They would have to listen..
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...ommunity/4c6c2e37-fdca-496f-a40a-158062b533da
Making my paragraph lol.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Caramel said:
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RT is far closer to Windows 8 than to Android or iOS. Android and iOS don't have huge chunks of API and features that are flat out locked out seemingly for product tier purposes.
Comparing RT and iOS/Android is comparing apples and oranges, it just doesn't work.
Possibly even more to the point, Android - notably, the most successful mobile OS on the planet, by a long shot - not only supports arbitrary code and (frequently) rooting, custom OSes, etc, it also supports doing things like chrooting to a (more traditional) Linux environment.
Microsoft has managed to create something that is most of a desktop OS, and yet is arguably *more* locked down than the most popular mobile OS. I do not understand why they would have chosen to do this, or why, after we managed to defeat much of the lockdown, they decided it was worth developer and tester time to re-instate it...
EDIT: Hell, this is an opportunity for Microsoft to achive some positive market differentiation with regard to Apple. Apple is constantly re-locking iOS, breaking jailbreaks as fast as they can. Microsoft is in a great position here to say "while we lock the OS down by default on RT to ensure the best possible security and user experience, we also welcome the tinkerers who are enthusiastic about the Windows platform and desire a deeper level of access." or something similar. Position themselves, and Windows RT, as the OS option that won't turn around and bite its most enthusiastic fans on the ass.
#SurfaceHasNoPurpose
Unlock the Surface!
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
xWolf13 said:
#SurfaceHasNoPurpose
Unlock the Surface!
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
don't you mean unlock windows RT? There are more RT devices than just the surface RT and there are 2 surfaces of which only 1 is locked...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
don't you mean unlock windows RT? There are more RT devices than just the surface RT and there are 2 surfaces of which only 1 is locked...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ehh. Yeah lol
Caramel said:
A lot of people dont understand the finality of Windows RT.
RT is jusy like Android or iOS, a tablet OS not a desktop OS. For x86 applications, use a W8 tablet with x86 architecture.
Personnaly on my PC i use a lot the desktop, on my Surface i only use ModernUI, it's made for, fast and clean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes.. 100% correct. I wouldn't say MS "locked out" anything from RT.. They just didn't port it. And with good reason.. RT has a targeted set of use cases so it doesnt make much sense for them to port over things that a fraction of the RT audience would use. Full "thick" apps are legacy and I feel like the desktop will be gone once its legacy requirements are for certain apps. Remember, RT isn't just a recompile of windows for ARM.. It was an entire kernel level and up overhaul from win32 that they made to look like traditional win8. Sure, some code/runtime libraries may have been ported over but certain components (e.g. domain support/netlogon) probably have deep ties into the kernel and other parts of the OS that just didn't make sense to support, so greying out a button in the UI was a quick fix.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
libbycm said:
Yes.. 100% correct. I wouldn't say MS "locked out" anything from RT.. They just didn't port it. And with good reason.. RT has a targeted set of use cases so it doesnt make much sense for them to port over things that a fraction of the RT audience would use. Full "thick" apps are legacy and I feel like the desktop will be gone once its legacy requirements are for certain apps. Remember, RT isn't just a recompile of windows for ARM.. It was an entire kernel level and up overhaul from win32 that they made to look like traditional win8. Sure, some code/runtime libraries may have been ported over but certain components (e.g. domain support/netlogon) probably have deep ties into the kernel and other parts of the OS that just didn't make sense to support, so greying out a button in the UI was a quick fix.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RT is essentially a direct port of Windows 8. The only notable thing it doesn't have is full DirectX or OpenGL. It's not an overhaul, it is quite literally just a recompile targeting ARM.
The reason it doesn't have domain support is because it's running at the level of a home basic copy. There are hacks to get the tablet to join a domain, and they've been discussed here (in fact, I believe that mamaich was the one to get them to work originally)
Don't spout a bunch of crap unless you actually know what you're talking about.
Myriachan said:
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When it comes to pure productivity, Desktop is better than Modern-UI, because it's apps are suited for precision input devices. That's why Photoshop works so well on Surface Pro and Office 2013 works well on our Surface RTs- when it comes to work, we use our cover keyboards and toucpads/mice and get the job done. I do think that there should be some more openness about the RT Desktop so that users could install simple Desktop tools to accompany this productive side of Windows 8 - the Desktop, like WinRAR (I don't like being taken to touch friendly UI when I work with files, and I prefer drag & drop while doing so anyway) and, perhaps, something like Photoshop Elements. Of course, Desktop app selection could be limited to what Ms approves via Store, but I just think that Desktop is not a thing to be gotten rid of, like some of you would prefer. I think it is to be embraced as an environment of sit-down productivity, and allowing some baby apps to run on our RTs would only be a good thing.
Desktop computer "sit-down productivity" professionals, on the other hand, should have an option of classic Start menu available, but that's a different topic.
I truly don't understand the obsession with "classic Start menu" - from a productivity standpoint, the 8.1 Start screen is just as good as the Win7 Start menu; you hit the Windows button, type a few letters, and hit Enter (8.0 isn't *quite* as good because results are segregated into "Apps" and "Settings" and it takes a lot of extra keystrokes to move between them). With that said, you'll note that one of the desktop apps for RT 8.0 is the open-source ClassicStartMenu...
Myriachan said:
Microsoft, why do you care so much that we're running desktop applications on our Surfaces? It's clear that you put a ton of effort into RT 8.1's lockdown.
We're running desktop applications because we like your device. We're giving your device added value. People have been avoiding Surface RT because it can't run most programs they love, and we're trying to alleviate that.
I know that you're reading this forum, and that this will all on deaf ears. But I have to try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want Microsoft to "leave the RT hacking community alone." I want them to openly support it. I want Microsoft to open up the ARM desktop to third party apps, including unsigned user generated content.
Let's face it: RT has barely made a dent in the market place and what enthusiasm third party hardware manufacturers may have had for the platform is quickly drying up. The Windows Store is a barren wasteland compared to the Apple App market or the Google Play store. Open up the desktop to developers and you'll see a bunch of popular and niche, open source projects ported to the platform. It would add tremendous value to the ARM architecture.
I recently got an RT tablet very cheaply thanks to a hookup who attended a Microsoft conference. It was my first real experience with Windows 8 and I found that it exceeded all my expectations except for two areas: a lack of Metro apps, and the inability to install third party desktop apps.
Having a machine with a fully functional desktop environment but not being able to install additional desktop applications is a bit like being allowed to chew your food but not swallow it.
I do hope someone from Microsoft is listening, and pays heed, because for me, at least, my Surface RT will likely be my last RT device if the desktop remains locked down.
dsf3g said:
I don't want Microsoft to "leave the RT hacking community alone." I want them to openly support it. I want Microsoft to open up the ARM desktop to third party apps, including unsigned user generated content.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would also be an acceptable solution =) They could add a BIOS option to change the Secure Boot policy GUID, with appropriate visible warnings about how the ability to run non-Windows Store applications also potentially opens up your system to malware.
Their current policy is very much, "oh this nice Windows 8 desktop environment... that's just for us, sorry".
If they'd allow desktop applications on the Windows Store, that'd also be nice.
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin
The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)
Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...
Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.
ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.
It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
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Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
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trying to start flamewars again...
SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
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No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
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Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
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I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.
Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
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Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
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Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
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That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
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That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
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You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.