Ok first off I do not need the whole lecture on Linux and how Android is supposed to work. I have had this phone for almost a year and you can say that all you want, but my results are different. I want a way or program to keep programs from automatically booting and running in the background. I have been using Go Launcher Ex and have Launcher Pro and SPB running in the background when they were never opened. No, I do not want to uninstall them as I have paid for them and like to keep them updating and check on them once in awhile to see the improvements. And that was just an example. There are also plenty of other apps running in the background I just do not need running all the time and automatically, and I will close them and they reload. So no lectures on how your phone is made to run like this, because I notice from my own personal use that when you close more programs the phone runs way smoother with less lag, no matter how it is "supposed" to work. So is there a program or something I can do or use to stop these programs from running automatically until I choose to run them? Please help.
SyndicateROM Frozen 1.2
Genocide EC05 Kernel 2.0 |1.4GhzOC|UV|VoodooSound10|VoodooColor|DualBoot
journaling off
EG22 modem
V6 SuperCharger! Update 9 Beta 3
Sdx stock app remover, remove all the services you don't want
Sent from my spare Droid since my epic got jacked. PM me if you want to sell yours.
I don't want to remove them, just keep them from running when they aren't being used. I mean really, if you only use some of them say once a week, do they really need to be taking up RAM making your phone lag everyday. What happened to having control over what is running, it is YOUR phone right?
Can't you just freeze what you want and then unfreeze when you want to us them?
Hey, would that work??? I remember reading that you could freeze apps. What program was that? Interesting... but really, I found a bunch of threads on angry users because we don't have control over what starts. Why can't the program just be there, until you decide to start it?
I use My Backup Pro but I read that Titanium works too. As to why...there is a long list of questions that could follow that intro...we are stuck accepting it.
Yeah, I've heard they want to track us and all that crap. I found a program called "Autostarts" that claims it does what I am looking for. Paid the .94 cents and am about to check it out. Thanks for the idea though. Freezing and unfreezing something just to use it sounds like a pain, just don't want them running for no reason.
Both MyBackUp Pro and Titanium Pro will freeze apps (tried both and like Titanium best because you can see what is frozen in the list and MyBackup does not have this). Either way you must keep USB Debugging checked for them to work properly, but that's no problem. Every once and a while you may notice something not working properly and you have to unfreeze ("Defrost") some apps to stop the force closing if this happens...for instance one of them was preventing me from changing my ringtones (I suspect I froze one of the media apps or music player, etc). Also you can use Titanium to remove apps or bloatware but since it keeps a list of all apps removed (assuming you did a Titanium backup) you can reinstall it thru Titanium.
I have Titanium and LOVE it as a backup. I love the option to individually install and uninstall things. It gives you more choice/power over your device. But I'd hate to have to freeze things just to keep them from running when they shouldn't be. It's amazing with all these programmers and smart people out there, that there isn't one easy solution to this problem.
You could also go against your own rant and learn how to close apps correctly and stop blaming the system. I never have apps re-open, so I don't understand this phenomenon. If you're unwilling to solve your own problem, so am I.
The Root said:
You could also go against your own rant and learn how to close apps correctly and stop blaming the system. I never have apps re-open, so I don't understand this phenomenon. If you're unwilling to solve your own problem, so am I.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me ask....why does maps or amazon remain open all the time, when I never open them in the first place. But yet there they are...even after a reboot. What you call a "phenomenon" I see as just another day in the life of the Epic. So what do you have running that doesn't allow these apps to open. It certainly has nothing to do with the closing procedure, seeing as I never opened them in the first place
Sent from my SPH-D700 using xda premium
Dunno, I back or exit out and nothing but basic google services runs in the background with swype, launcherpro, and something else. That's it. I freeze nothing, I app kill nothing.
The Root said:
You could also go against your own rant and learn how to close apps correctly and stop blaming the system. I never have apps re-open, so I don't understand this phenomenon. If you're unwilling to solve your own problem, so am I.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It sounds like he's talking about the apps that just start up on their own, not the ones he has opened. The solution is to freeze them or delete them or install a custom ROM that left them out.
Well that was very nice and helpful of you. Either you are very well educated and know something almost no one else seems to know, or you're a complete idiot. I have found numerous threads on this subject and have not found one answer. This is no lazy ass, I cannot Google, and I am not putting out any effort to help myself question. I have done a lot of searching. Task Managers don't work, cause the apps just restart themselves. So if you are a computer God, then why not actually be helpful instead of being a jerk and wasting time posting in this thread. It IS a question and answer thread, I do not believe I am out of line here.
Not trying to be a jerk. You started out by saying you wanted different results without changing your behavior. That may not be possible. I don't know what apps you have running. Deleting an extra launcher won't stop you from downloading it later when you want to use it. Are you using the back button or built in exit button from within the app? What apps are reopening? Exiting an app using the home key will not close it. I need more info to help and less ranting.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
No, I understand the back button exits the app while the home key only "pauses/minimizes" it. And, as others have said, certain apps such as maps start up on their own. I have beautiful widgets, maps, SPB, Launcher Pro, Perfect Task Switcher, etc. etc., all running in the background at boot. It's not about me starting them, they start themselves. And even when you close them, they just restart. Why do we not have the control? There has to be a way. I do have certain apps I would prefer to run in the background, as they are used more frequently, but not just whatever apps feel like running should run on their own. Why should I have to uninstall them. Say maps for instance. It is handy to have, but really how often will I need it. So I want it there for convenience just in case. So why should it be constantly running in the background. It only needs to run every month or two or whatever it may be when I choose to use it. It's not a hard concept, but this seems to be the flaw of Android from what I have read in many forums.
Running in the background is a subjective phrase. Some run a tiny piece so they'll launch quicker or the app data may just be up behind the scene. It doesn't always mean the app is fully running. Words with friends won't close at all. I don't keeo apps that behave like that. One reason some apps stay open has to do with the memory manager. Froyo and gb are more advanced in that department.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Related
I have tried to use this to stop the drm services from starting. I install and check all options to stop them from starting up. They still start up on reboot even though I check the option to not restart.
What can I use or how can I stop there since I seem to not need it.
mynewepic10 said:
I have tried to use this to stop the drm services from starting. I install and check all options to stop them from starting up. They still start up on reboot even though I check the option to not restart.
What can I use or how can I stop there since I seem to not need it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyone have an idea?
mynewepic10 said:
Anyone have an idea?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you seriously just double post AND quote yourself simultaneously?
Is that another way to bump?
mynewepic10 said:
I have tried to use this to stop the drm services from starting. I install and check all options to stop them from starting up. They still start up on reboot even though I check the option to not restart.
What can I use or how can I stop there since I seem to not need it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I don't know the exact behavior of every single Task Manager, nor do I know what you mean by stopping the DRM(Digital Rights Management?) services.
For one, that sounds like an issue associated with pirateing, which is not tolerated for discussion here at XDA Devlopers.
And so to probably answer your question:
Especially with an Eclair 2.1 version of Android, Task Managers are not able to kill processes immediately as they are created. I know the one that I use only kills the Auto-Kill listed apps when I turn the screen off. So your Task Manager may not be able to successfully kill the aforementioned DRM process.
Hope that helps. Don't pirate. At least don't make it obvous...
Just use titanium backup to freeze the drm services. And he's not wanting to stop it fire piracy issues, its a known issue that drm services cause a huge battery drain on our phones
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
What i do is, i created a custom shortcut to settings - running services. Tap the icon, click the process. No extra killers needed. I do it once per boot.. and, having tried a million other methods, this works the best.
Doesn't freezing it in titanium cause the same problems as if it was removed?
To cyan crayon: do you have an epic?
..and just realized were replying to a post that's 3 months old.. selffail.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
decalex said:
To cyan crayon: do you have an epic?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I have an Epic. If you use the desktop website you'll see it in my sig.
I haven't come across this DRM process issue yet, although I've only had my Epic for about two weeks. Regardless of the fact, when I do see problems I might be able to help with I will do my best to contribute.
Edit: Let me attempt to clarify what I have said.
I never guessed to check my processes, and whaddya know it's right there staring me right in the face.
The thing is task managers like Task Manager (which is what I use) only can target running apps. In case that wasn't apparent.
This process is starting along with the Android System, so unless you decide you don't want the system to start when the phone boots, it will start it every time.
The point is that task managers like Task Manager, cannot, and will not terminate processes other than its own, because (obvously for security reasons) the API for that behavior does not exist.
/lecture ^-^"
And I would imagine freezing it would cause issues. Just like decalex said. It does perhaps have a purpose.
Sent from my Epic4G using Tapatalk
decalex said:
What i do is, i created a custom shortcut to settings - running services. Tap the icon, click the process. No extra killers needed. I do it once per boot.. and, having tried a million other methods, this works the best.
Doesn't freezing it in titanium cause the same problems as if it was removed?
To cyan crayon: do you have an epic?
..and just realized were replying to a post that's 3 months old.. selffail.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've never had any issues withe my phone at all, other than the known dk28 bugs and even then the worst bug is the occasional wfi error running midnight rom and I have tianium freezing all drm services. And I use the media player for about 7.5 hours of my day and pandora for about another hour with the occasional movie playing during breaks if I'm super bored lol
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
CyanCrayon said:
Yes, I have an Epic. If you use the desktop website you'll see it in my sig.
I haven't come across this DRM process issue yet, although I've only had my Epic for about two weeks. Regardless of the fact, when I do see problems I might be able to help with I will do my best to contribute.
Edit: Let me attempt to clarify what I have said.
I never guessed to check my processes, and whaddya know it's right there staring me right in the face.
The thing is task managers like Task Manager (which is what I use) only can target running apps. In case that wasn't apparent.
This process is starting along with the Android System, so unless you decide you don't want the system to start when the phone boots, it will start it every time.
The point is that task managers like Task Manager, cannot, and will not terminate processes other than its own, because (obvously for security reasons) the API for that behavior does not exist.
/lecture ^-^"
And I would imagine freezing it would cause issues. Just like decalex said. It does perhaps have a purpose.
Sent from my Epic4G using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[How] to remove the omadrmconfigservice.drm to get more battery life on epic:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=794010
Do you really think that someone that knows how to pirate would ask for advice/assistance on how to do it in this forum?
brickwall99 said:
[How] to remove the omadrmconfigservice.drm to get more battery life on epic:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=794010
Do you really think that someone that knows how to pirate would ask for advice/assistance on how to do it in this forum?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
>.> There are some morons out there...
And you beat me to linking that.. ^^
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for taking the time to look at my situation. I'm a new user and have been experimenting, trying a few different ROMs, loved the feel of cyanogenmod7 (b36) but couldn't hack the poor battery life (approx 5 hours light mod use with radio 26.04.02.17). I went back to LeeDrOid (installed v2.0 this time but have previously used 1.51 and got 24 hours battery on moderate use with the same radio). Once back at LeeDrOiD 2.0 I have the following two relatively minor but annoying issues.
1) On all my other ROM flashes android has somehow been able to detect apps I have downloaded from the market and installs them automatically. I've now wiped and flashed v2.0 3 times and it won't find or restore the my (40 odd) apps. Is this a common issue with this build? Is there a specific app or process that is responsible for restoring these apps that I can tinker with?
2) I use ADWLauncher for my home. The system keeps forgetting that I want to use it as default. It often works for about 2 or 3 uses of the home key (eg either to bring up previews, or to return to home screen from an app) and then asks me which program (ie launcher, ADWLauncher EX, even quick desk which I installed on one of the re wipes to try and see if other apps handled the home default better). I've tried clearing from setting>applications manager, and have reflashed but the fault keeps happening. Is this a common problem with this build, or is there something I am missing [most likely scenario].
Thanks in advance for any help your are able to give. The android community is an amazing thing.
Cheers,
Mike.
I was having a very similar issue with the apps not restoring after flashing a new rom. I live in a country where there are no paid apps available.. so i've been using MarketAccess. What i found is that when i forget to open MarketAccess and emulate a US sim BEFORE launching the market for the first time after a flash, my apps wont download. But when i do launch MarketAccess before launching the market, then all my apps download. So i've made it a habit now to install MarketAccess first thing after a fresh install of a new rom.
I don't know if you live in a country with paid apps though so my point may be totally irrelevant lol
As for your second concern about adw launcher... im not too sure about that. Maybe you have a task killer installed? If so that may be interfering. Uninstall that and see if it helps. You shouldnt really ne using task killers anyway. But again you might not have one so this point may be irrelevant too lol
Thanks for responding.
I'm in australia so we have the full Market apps store here. I haven't heard of market access before, is that a standard app our one specific to your zone? This problem only seems to be for this version 2 rom, and not the other roms I have flashed. Scratching head.
With the launcher, I haven't got a task killer installed. I use astro or the system task manager. It's very puzzling, the default setting will sick for a few times usually, then ask me again. Capricious little beasts, these phones
I do use juice defender though, do you think that could be cutting off the default sections while the system is in use? I'll give that a shot.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
Mate, you were on the right track. It was juice defender that was killing the home screen default. I sorted it out in the configure apps section by making it visible. Stupidly, I hadn't thought of jd as a task killer. Thanks for your help.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
Glad you sorted that out.
Since I use Launcher Pro instead of the default sense I was wondering if someone could let me know which things would be safe to uninstall?
So far..
Rosie.apk
POQbum said:
Since I use Launcher Pro instead of the default sense I was wondering if someone could let me know which things would be safe to uninstall?
So far..
Rosie.apk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've done this same thing, removed all HTC* and Sense* apps and services from my phone. I staged it using Titanium to freeze them all first, then after a week of no crashes, no FC's , and having the kernel I wanted, I removed them all.
The problem I'm having is how to convey this info to you. Titanium backup will produce a list but it seems a bug will only list the user apps, not the system ones in the resultant email.
I think I could just do a complete listing from adb of the content of /system/app, and you can diff it with your own to produce things that do no harm when removed.
If you're interested, let me know. There is , I think, no "sense" left when done with this. Compared to say the Rom called Senseless R., it has much less apps & services (that are all social networking garbage) installed and it runs very well. Normally, at any given time, it is running 8-18 services & apps, compared to ~50-60 before I did this.
I guess I'd rather make my own mistakes then install someone else's. (which might make you think twice about doing anything I recommend )
Of course, as always, do a full nandroid backup before starting on this type of thing. Remove one wrong thing and you're likely not going to be able to reboot, but I think if you freeze them first with TB, then you might be able to boot using 'safe mode' (see XDA) and still unfreeze the culprit keeping it from rebooting (use logcat to figure it out if you can).
--
Thanks for the tips.
I'm using 'root uninstaller' that shows all apps and 'com.android' stuff.
I did a full backup and am experimenting uninstalling different things.
One of the .htc uninstalls resulted in crashing mms, 3g and just about anything major like the dialer.
Slowly and surely I'm doing a full backup everytime I get to a point where I uninstalled a few things and everything still works great.
I haven't been keeping track of exactly what I've been uninstalling so I guess I can't help out anyone in the future :/
hey all
another question for me today...
my g2 has been slowing down quite a bit lately. almost ready to root. but first i wanted to see if i can deal with this a bit longer.
first things first, i've read plenty of posts and articles, even a thing from cyanogen himself i believe that said that taskkillers are worthless in the android operating system. that being said, according to an app i just installed called "startupcleaner2.0" i have 42 apps loading at startup. my g2 takes almost 5 minutes to boot. some of these apps are of course required apps and system things, things that i absolutely need, but then there are things like, "CardioTrainer," an app i've never even used but would like to check out sometime, or "G4" which i see no reason why it should need to run until i run it myself, or "HootSuite" which I don't even use (I just use the separate facebook and twitter apps) but just haven't gotten around to uninstalling yet.
i have plenty of space left on my sd card, and really don't want to uninstall all these extra apps because i'd like to try them at sometime, and if i don't like them then delete them (and some apps like for example, G4, i REALLY don't want to install cause i do use them, just see no reason for them to start at startup). so, should i actually make use of this StartUpCleaner2.0 and have it stop these apps from running? or is it the same situation as the supposedly useless (and potentially bad for your phone taskkillers) where it's sort of counterproductive to the way android is meant to be managed?
thanks for your input. it just seems lame that with all this space there should be a limit to the amount of apps i can have installed for my phone to run good. but if that really is the case i'll uninstall some (i just did a sweep of like 20 apps/games i never used). if not, then i'll give this StartUpCleaner2.0 a try and stop pretty probably half of these things from starting at startup.
thanks!
Dave
anyone? would love to find out about this.
polarbearmc said:
anyone? would love to find out about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All I can say is: Read this: http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ And for what is worth; thats the truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth there is about this subject.
P.S. You may always thank me afterwards when you have concluded that installing a app killer did not help you in any way improving your battery life.
You might use watchdog or titanuim backup to freeze those apps so they can't run at all while still leaving them installed. That's what I'd do, or use a startup/autorun manager.
I use Autorun Manager since I use the apps, just don't want them running at boot because like you pointed out, it increases boot times.
you know i think that is one of the things i had read telling me not to use task killers which is why i stopped using them. but there's still the fact that my phone is sluggish now with lots of apps installed in a way that it wasn't when i first got it. and i refuse to believe it's sluggish just from "having them installed" even if i'm not using them ... if that's the case, then android REALLY doesn't do a great job of shutting down tasks and whatnot on its own...
also i wasn't considering using a task killer exactly, it was something to stop apps from running at startup in the first place. especially apps that i simply don't use at all but apparently are loading.
HLeenders said:
All I can say is: Read this: http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ And for what is worth; thats the truth, the only truth and nothing but the truth there is about this subject.
P.S. You may always thank me afterwards when you have concluded that installing a app killer did not help you in any way improving your battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I use the Autostarts app for the same thing, disabling apps on startup. It can help with boot times a little, but honestly it doesn't make too much of a difference. One of the problems now is that many apps that start on boot don't show up in Autostarts and other autorun manager type apps, so you can't control their boot priority. I think this started in 2.3.
And yes, don't use a task killer with Android. I used to use one a while back, and it made absolutely no difference in battery life or performance. In fact, it made some apps a lot slower to restart. That was with my old Cliq. Ever since I've had my G2 I haven't used one.
hello
My note 2's 2GB of RAM is ****ed up, some apps I don't know about them uses up all the RAM and it makes my phone ****ing slow. It's ****ing pissing me off.
It goes to 357MB then to 1.34GB.
Is there any way to fix this issue?
Thank you.
I don't have ****cking idea why that *****cking problem is *****cking happening,but there's lots of ****cking apps that take a lot of *****cking ram
donhashem.dh said:
I don't have ****cking idea why that *****cking problem is *****cking happening,but there's lots of ****cking apps that take a lot of *****cking ram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^^^^^^^^_^
HI ***KING LARIOUS
sent from my future SPH-L900
please no trolls.
I asked if there's any ****ing solution for this problem. How can i permanently close those running apps. I ****ing force close them and they ****ing starts again.
Can you post a ****ing screen shot or make a ****ing list of the ****ing apps that are ****ing opening so that we can see what they are?
Maybe other people will have the same apps running and know how to shut them off
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
Seeing as you're new here, i though i'd be nice to you this first time.
Please, no swearing.
The people who posted in the thread are making fun of you because of the absolutely unneeded swearing and nonsense.
To fix your problem you're going to have to tell us some more about your phone and what you've done.
Is it rooted? If so, what rom and kernel are you running?
Did you try to simply reboot the phone? (Also a good idea to cold boot it, meaning to shut it off, remove the battery, put it back in and boot up).
It's doesn't help what so ever to force close apps that are not misbehaving. The Android system manages this perfectly fine. Only force close an app if there is something wrong with it.
What apps have you installed? Some of them might be taking up alot of RAM and running in the background.
I was nice to you, now please do the same to us.
You came to us asking a question like that, you should be gracious that we're even replying.
Moonbloom said:
Seeing as you're new here, i though i'd be nice to you this first time.
Please, no swearing.
The people who posted in the thread are making fun of you because of the absolutely unneeded swearing and nonsense.
To fix your problem you're going to have to tell us some more about your phone and what you've done.
Is it rooted? If so, what rom and kernel are you running?
Did you try to simply reboot the phone? (Also a good idea to cold boot it, meaning to shut it off, remove the battery, put it back in and boot up).
It's doesn't help what so ever to force close apps that are not misbehaving. The Android system manages this perfectly fine. Only force close an app if there is something wrong with it.
What apps have you installed? Some of them might be taking up alot of RAM and running in the background.
I was nice to you, now please do the same to us.
You came to us asking a question like that, you should be gracious that we're even replying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure.
My Samsung Galaxy note 2 is not rooted.
I restart my phone couple of times if the number exceeded.
I have 39 apps downloaded from Google Play.
I was angry because it annoys crap out of me so pardon me.
Mporp said:
Sure.
My Samsung Galaxy note 2 is not rooted.
I restart my phone couple of times if the number exceeded.
I have 39 apps downloaded from Google Play.
I was angry because it annoys crap out of me so pardon me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay.
If your phone is running slowly and you're not rooted, then it is 99% sure an app problem.
It could be a hardware flaw in your phone, but my guess is app related (If your phone was as slow as it is now, when you got it, it is probably hardware related).
Try uninstalling any unneeded apps, like various tools you downloaded once to try it out, games you dont really play, etc etc.
Try to clear your cache. There are several apps out there that can do it (Some require root, and can clear more caches than non-root ones can, just try a non-root cache cleaner).
After doing that, do a cold boot as i refered to in my last post and see if it is better.
If not, try and go into Settings, Applications, Running Applications and see if there are any major apps that you installed yourself (not the ones that came with the phone) running and try to uninstall the ones taking up the most power, then do a cold boot again and see if it improved.
If nothing works, try and post a list of the apps you have installed on your phone that you installed yourself.
Moonbloom said:
Okay.
If your phone is running slowly and you're not rooted, then it is 99% sure an app problem.
It could be a hardware flaw in your phone, but my guess is app related (If your phone was as slow as it is now, when you got it, it is probably hardware related).
Try uninstalling any unneeded apps, like various tools you downloaded once to try it out, games you dont really play, etc etc.
Try to clear your cache. There are several apps out there that can do it (Some require root, and can clear more caches than non-root ones can, just try a non-root cache cleaner).
After doing that, do a cold boot as i refered to in my last post and see if it is better.
If not, try and go into Settings, Applications, Running Applications and see if there are any major apps that you installed yourself (not the ones that came with the phone) running and try to uninstall the ones taking up the most power, then do a cold boot again and see if it improved.
If nothing works, try and post a list of the apps you have installed on your phone that you installed yourself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think its hardware related. When I got first my Note 2 it was suprisingly fast. So it's probably the apps.
I've cleared all my caches, deleted a lot of unneeded apps and also done the cold boot after that I navigated to Settings>Applications manager> running apps.
I noticed samsung's keyboard took 55mb of ram, google service 20mb. maps 32mb. play store 10mb. settings 39mb 0_0. Those apps that came with the phone took a lot of ram. why is that? is there anyway to decrease the number?
You can use Titanium Backup to freeze or unintstall any apps that aren't needed by the OS. This will prevent them from ever starting up again.
Is the used up ram actually causing you problems? As I understand it android will make use of the ram to help switch apps quicker. So if its high its not a problem.
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda premium
there are apps out there that tells you which apps uses the most cpu cycles. i can't recommend one as i don't use them, but might help you pinpoint your problem-app.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk 2
So you want more Ram han? Here is a very simple trick
Go to developer option
Select limit background processes and then select 4 processes...
You will see ram will fall below 1 gb
sent from: designed for humans
As far as I know, it makes my phone laggy when the number is high and the animation when you open a folder seems slow and also for notifications