Develop Bugs

Very dissapointing start for WP7 :(

http://www.prweb.com/releases/prweb2011/1/prweb8101410.htm
Despite buy-one-get-one promotions at both AT&T and T-Mobile, the Windows Phone 7 OS claimed less market share than its predecessor, Windows Mobile, for which handsets are still available at all four major U.S. carriers. Windows Phone 7 also entered the market with lower share than either Android or webOS at their debuts, according to NPD's Mobile Phone Track.
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Not good

well Android didn't have to compete with Android when it came on the scene, so it's hard for WP7.
webOS is basically dead now anyways.

MS need to do something about all this PR bleeding. I have no idea what their PR people get paid for.
Of course it has lower share at launch than Android. It's absolutely natural because when Android (and especially iPhone) launched, smartphones were a niche product. And you still have to sell phones, no matter whether they are smart or not. And in order to sell many phones you need awareness, availability and, in the case of platforms such as WP7, WM or Android you also need tons of handsets because you can't make the one and only.
They got 2% share at half the market and half the period. If they sold for the whole quarter they'd get 3-4%. If they sold on all four carriers instead of two, they'd get 6-8%, maybe 10, even with the current set of devices. If they had 30 devices, they'd get even more.
This isn't half bad.
Now, why am I talking about it, not Microsoft PR? This is the question.
And, more importantly, the only thing that matters now is whether new handsets will be coming. If they will, there's no need to worry. If they won't - there's lots of reasons to worry.

1) windows mobile was such an unmitigated disaster, any mobile phone with "windows" in the title will make people stop and think
2) it's different than anything seen before
3) it's a new OS, nothing comes out and just dominates (save for the iphone in '07)
4) once people realize that Android is like a prettied up windows mobile, they will try other things

vangrieg said:
MS need to do something about all this PR bleeding. I have no idea what their PR people get paid for.
Of course it has lower share at launch than Android. It's absolutely natural because when Android (and especially iPhone) launched, smartphones were a niche product. And you still have to sell phones, no matter whether they are smart or not. And in order to sell many phones you need awareness, availability and, in the case of platforms such as WP7, WM or Android you also need tons of handsets because you can't make the one and only.
They got 2% share at half the market and half the period. If they sold for the whole quarter they'd get 3-4%. If they sold on all four carriers instead of two, they'd get 6-8%, maybe 10, even with the current set of devices. If they had 30 devices, they'd get even more.
This isn't half bad.
Now, why am I talking about it, not Microsoft PR? This is the question.
And, more importantly, the only thing that matters now is whether new handsets will be coming. If they will, there's no need to worry. If they won't - there's lots of reasons to worry.
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Mm, there's a large amount of BS PR going around... people like the OP making posts about things that they don't understand in the slightest - just playing with numbers to see what comes out :/

Also, in reference to Microsofts PR, I remember back when Android was launching I remember seeing almost non-stop TV commercials even weeks before it was released. I can say I have seen exactly zero commercial for WP7. Maybe they think since they are Microsoft they don't need to advertise.

GenkaiMade said:
Mm, there's a large amount of BS PR going around... people like the OP making posts about things that they don't understand in the slightest - just playing with numbers to see what comes out :/
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Well the OP didn't invent those numbers, he reposted them. And these numbers (with corresponding conclusions) will cover the whole internet in no time. And no matter how well-though the conclusions are, the takeaway will be that WP7 is a failure.
Companies hire PR staff exactly to not let such things happen, and to recover in case of problems such as this. It seems that MS hires PR to keep mum about everything.

jklier said:
Maybe they think since they are Microsoft they don't need to advertise.
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Well maybe since they are Microsoft they shouldn't advertise. They suck miserably at it.

GenkaiMade said:
Mm, there's a large amount of BS PR going around... people like the OP making posts about things that they don't understand in the slightest - just playing with numbers to see what comes out :/
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I beg your pardon? I didn't play with numbers, it's a direct quote. If you don't like them, it's not my fault!

Well, I think that taking 2% share in 2 months is good. WP7 is new and people have to get more info about it. It's not enough, and MS should release the update faster, make their customers believe, that they won't fail. Everything will be good. WP7 is awesome

Niiceg said:
Everything will be good. WP7 is awesome
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I hope it's not the way MS think.
It's not nearly enough to have an awesome product to sell tons of it.

vangrieg said:
I hope it's not the way MS think.
It's not nearly enough to have an awesome product to sell tons of it.
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Well, Beginning is awesome, let's hope they will make it super awesome with adding more features :]

some of you guys are also forgetting that this is the same company that sold a gazillion Windows 7 licenses and three gazillion kinects. MS knows how to sell a product. Now that they are not tailoring their OS to business users anymore they will pick up the pace with this OS in time. First Q numbers just aren't going to reflect anything.
MS is such a corporate giant that they can afford a bad first year and at least get the product known, they're not Palm, who is going to go under if one phone doesn't sell.
Having said that, I personally do not know one person who owns a WP7 phone or has even heard of the OS besides me, so the general public just see commercials and are like "what the hell is that?" then go into the store and buy an iPhone or an Evo.
Those WP7 commercials basically suck though. they don't say **** about the OS or what it can do, all they say are "look how beautiful it is" or "I can open my camera app one second faster than other people" or "I don't have to look at my phone as long as other users" - maybe that's because you don't have **** for apps? I wouldn't brag about that.
Where are the commercials on the fluidity of the OS? the facebook integration? the battery life? the ease of user-experience? the lack of lag, force closes, or reboots? the fact that there aren't 50 thousand versions of the OS that drive developers crazy? the fact of phones on all 4 networks (soon) as opposed to iPhones on the 2 most expensive networks in the country?
come on, ADVERTISE!

orangekid said:
some of you guys are also forgetting that this is the same company that sold a gazillion Windows 7 licenses and three gazillion kinects. MS knows how to sell a product. Now that they are not tailoring their OS to business users anymore they will pick up the pace with this OS in time. First Q numbers just aren't going to reflect anything.
MS is such a corporate giant that they can afford a bad first year and at least get the product known, they're not Palm, who is going to go under if one phone doesn't sell.
Having said that, I personally do not know one person who owns a WP7 phone or has even heard of the OS besides me, so the general public just see commercials and are like "what the hell is that?" then go into the store and buy an iPhone or an Evo.
Those WP7 commercials basically suck though. they don't say **** about the OS or what it can do, all they say are "look how beautiful it is" or "I can open my camera app one second faster than other people" or "I don't have to look at my phone as long as other users" - maybe that's because you don't have **** for apps? I wouldn't brag about that.
Where are the commercials on the fluidity of the OS? the facebook integration? the battery life? the ease of user-experience? the lack of lag, force closes, or reboots? the fact that there aren't 50 thousand versions of the OS that drive developers crazy? the fact of phones on all 4 networks (soon) as opposed to iPhones on the 2 most expensive networks in the country?
come on, ADVERTISE!
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Yeah tell me about it. The Xbox franchise hasn't made any money until just recently and they didn't think twice about putting mucho bucks into the platform. Thats like 10 years and billions lost but now they will make that money back and then some.
I saw an interview with BIll G. and Steve J. before the iphone was launched and Bill was talking about what was required for a smartphone to become popular and Steve looked like he was taking some mental notes. Funny enough is Apple pretty much followed what Bill said to a T and knocked it out of the park.
MS knows how to build great platforms and sell them. As long as they can stick it out long enough they will be fine. I think the only reason they killed the Zune is because all that is now rolled up into WP7 and sales were poor anyway, even though it was a great device.

Damn Microsoft, they killed Milo and Kate.

It is too early to be disapointed.
May be after a year, or after MWC 2011.
I hope thay present new devices and new features for WP7.

As was pointed out at wpcentral.com, the article in the OP's post talks about market share, not sales. Of course WP7 isn't going to pass the marketshare of WM, since WM already existed.

that and you also need to take into account what the survey was looking at. was it looking at just 1 country? globally? if it was globally, it is also unfair as windows phone 7 is only selling in a handful of countries compared to windows mobile where windows mobile is actually still very popular across middle east and western asia (india).

To all those who say they are disappointed in what the OS right now all I have to ask is do you see yourself switching to anything else in the future?
Disappointed start is 100% on bad commercials.

If every single smartphone sold to anyone in the last quarter was running WP7, that would probably only bring its market share up to about 12%.

Windows Phone Market Share

Much has been made of the Windows Phone slow start with maybe less that 2 million units in the hands of consumers. However I think that the recent predictions by Gartner, IDC etc... of about 20% by 2015 might be a little low. I think by 2015 Android and Windows Phone will have parity in software features, hardware and the number of OEM`s supporting them.
I also think the Nokia relationship definately pushes them to over 30% when you consider Nokia`s dominance in growing economies like China, India, Russia, Latin America and Africa. Its also clear how much Nokia needs windows phone to defend these markets against Android..
India and China alone are expected to see their middle class grow 10 fold by 2025. India currently has a middle class population of about 50 million people..
Its definately not just about whats happening in the North America or Western Europe!!!
This graphic tells the current state of play worldwide...
http://rww.readwriteweb.netdna-cdn....02/global-os-marketshare-feb.2011-o-27904.php

We'll see how well WP7 and Nokia really work together. From what we know, Bing Maps will get stuff from Ovi Maps (or be replaced by Ovi Maps?) and a Nokia App store will be added on top of the Windows Phone Marketplace. This might be nice for Nokia but I don't know if other phone makers will like this.
Also Nokia will not use WP7 in its current form. What that means is not very clear, but the start screen with all the pinned apps and stuff might not be there on nokia phones.

^ last I read, Nokia wont be doing any changes to the OS.

Yeah that's what I read some time ago which actually didn't bother me:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/nokia-will-be-able-to-customize-everything-in-windows-phone-7/
But then a few days ago this:
http://www.liveside.net/2011/04/29/will-nokia-phones-use-metro/

slimshady322 said:
But then a few days ago this:
http://www.liveside.net/2011/04/29/will-nokia-phones-use-metro/
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That article is very misleading. The part they claim to be a translated quote of Öistämö's comments was not that at all. It was a quote of a blog's interpretation of the comment that "Nokia will not adopt Windows Phone environment as it is today". Considering how vague that comment is, it could be taken many ways.
Besides, if Microsoft were to allow Nokia to make such fundamental UI changes, after forbidding HTC from doing the same, it could destroy their relationship with their other manufacturers.

Nokia will be adding things like better camera app, Navtek Data/ovi maps into the whole wp7 system, the OVI store, and differentiating itself with its hardware. The general OS will be untouched as to provide the consistent user experience across devices MS is looking for.
I personally cannot wait for the high end Nokia Windows Phones. And I believe they will also force the other OEM's to make better hardware as well to compete.

If nokia wont change anything on wp7 they will fail. Symbian maybe outdated and old but it has lots of nice features. Nokia fanboys may find wp7 lacking on every aspect. And what about the low-end phones from nokia? Will it too have wp7 on it. Nokia definitely made a wrong choice here. Nokia dominates on the Massess.

Nokia will be using WP7 for the low end after 2012 and WP8 for the high end devices... I think they will introduce new form factors also...
Sent from my OMNIA7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

ebzrascal said:
Nokia will be using WP7 for the low end after 2012 and WP8 for the high end devices... I think they will introduce new form factors also...
Sent from my OMNIA7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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ewww, this will not sit well with people....
remember how pissed people were when they found they needed to buy vista ultimate office wildcard edition for xyz featureset ?
ok, now compound that pissed off consumer with a 2 year contract, and having to upgrade a piece of hardware ($600 off contract, no upgrade eligiblilty) to get xyz featureset...
I predict some pissed folks !
this is where apple got it right, and ms should have learned already:
same phone, just more storage
android?
a billion phones + 1 click root = any software you ever wanted

There's no way to predict anything for 2015 with any reliability. The best you can do is take current factors and extrapolate. Currently phones have very short lives (1-2 years in the hands of a customer), and without loyalty market shares change dramatically very fast. There's nothing that prevents users from switching - "apps" are too cheap to be a real barrier, and on Android they don't even serve this purpose because so many are free.
So there's brands and distribution power. Arguably, the only real smartphone brand is owned by Apple. Everything else is up in the air.
That being said, WP7 needs dozens of phones, and not just from Nokia, to have a sizable market.
Its also interesting to see what Apple is going to do with that billion dollar datacentre.

The only companies in this market with Brand Loyalty is RIM, APPLE and Nokia....
Thats why Nokia is huge for WP7 especially in the emerging markets where their lead is considerable and economic growth is much higher than the North America and Western Europe.....
If Nokia raises the profile of Windows Phone then HTC, Samsung and LG will all benifit. It will be interesting to see if Sony Ericssron and Motorola make devices in future if all goes as predicted...

ebzrascal said:
The only companies in this market with Brand Loyalty is RIM, APPLE and Nokia....
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Symbian has brand loyalty, not Nokia. If SE would start putting out Symbian phones with their hardware designs, good screens, and their good cameras, I bet a lot of people who are Symbian loyalists would go there, but Sony dumped Symbian too
Thats why Nokia is huge for WP7 especially in the emerging markets where their lead is considerable and economic growth is much higher than the North America and Western Europe.....
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That's assuming most of those people will accept the functionality disparity and go with WP7 as opposed to moving to devices from RIM or Android devices. Those forcases are all very ambitious. I don't think they will play out as well as peopel think it would. Most of them assumed like 90 to 100% of Nokia's current customers will go from Symbian to WP7, which I simply don't see happening...
If Nokia raises the profile of Windows Phone then HTC, Samsung and LG will all benifit. It will be interesting to see if Sony Ericssron and Motorola make devices in future if all goes as predicted...
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If Nokia's pricing for WP7 handsets in this part of the world is the same as their high end Symbian phone prices, they will still lose badly here to HTC/Samsung/LG/Sony/etc. because price matters.
Microsoft is giving Nokia a competitive edge over the other manufacturers at the moment.
But a manufacturer like Samsung has the capacity to make better phones than Nokia. Microsoft really limited Samsung WRT the Focus (no Hummingbird (wildly superior to 1st gen snapdragons - ESP the GPU), and it seems like the sound hardware isn't as good as the Galaxy S phones, either). Using old hardware helps manufacturers like Nokia and HTC who are trying to maximize margins, but it hurts manufacturers like Samsung who have their own, better, hardware they could use...
If they don't let up soon the other manufacturers may just drop it and concentrate on Android (except HTC, they'll just use an old blueprint and put a new OS on it and call it a day).

N8ter said:
Symbian has brand loyalty, not Nokia. If SE would start putting out Symbian phones with their hardware designs, good screens, and their good cameras, I bet a lot of people who are Symbian loyalists would go there, but Sony dumped Symbian too
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I disagree Nokia has the Brand loyalty not Symbian at least with the average customer... Nokia stands for Reliabilty and Quality in hardware and optics.
N8ter said:
That's assuming most of those people will accept the functionality disparity and go with WP7 as opposed to moving to devices from RIM or Android devices. Those forcases are all very ambitious. I don't think they will play out as well as peopel think it would. Most of them assumed like 90 to 100% of Nokia's current customers will go from Symbian to WP7, which I simply don't see happening...
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When Nokia devices arrive with Mango built in there will be no functionality disparity!!! between WP7 and RIM/ANDROID/IOS
N8ter said:
If Nokia's pricing for WP7 handsets in this part of the world is the same as their high end Symbian phone prices, they will still lose badly here to HTC/Samsung/LG/Sony/etc. because price matters.
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Just checked Expansys and the N8 is selling for 400ukp and the E72 250ukp which is definately comparible to Android and Blackberry...
N8ter said:
Microsoft is giving Nokia a competitive edge over the other manufacturers at the moment.
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Well they are giving WP7 a huge push in distribution to India, China, Russia, Latin America and African markets. China already has a smartphone market which half the size of the US market and its exected to grow rapidly. They are also bring functionality to Windows Phone like OVI Maps and Navigation.
N8ter said:
But a manufacturer like Samsung has the capacity to make better phones than Nokia. Microsoft really limited Samsung WRT the Focus (no Hummingbird (wildly superior to 1st gen snapdragons - ESP the GPU), and it seems like the sound hardware isn't as good as the Galaxy S phones, either). Using old hardware helps manufacturers like Nokia and HTC who are trying to maximize margins, but it hurts manufacturers like Samsung who have their own, better, hardware they could use...
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I would expect support for Hummingbird, Tegra 3 etc to come later when Windows Phone is established and are selling hundreds of millions of devices
N8ter said:
If they don't let up soon the other manufacturers may just drop it and concentrate on Android (except HTC, they'll just use an old blueprint and put a new OS on it and call it a day).
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Why would the OEM`s want to depend soley on Android ?? Eventually I see Motorola and especially Sony Ericsson making Windows Phones probably in late 2012...

disastrous sales of wp7 ?

pcmag is sensatinalising things, stating android was sued into stopping wifi tethering...then going to be sued out of existwance by apple... now this
source
http://mobile.pcmag.com/device2/art.../www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2384840,00.asp
Analyst Says Real Microsoft WP7 Sales Are 'Catastrophic'
By Sara Yin Tweet
Russian tech blogger and analyst Eldar Murtazin, the man credited for predicting the Nokia-Microsoft tie-up way back in December, has published a damning report that claims Microsoft sold only 674,000 Windows Phone 7 devices in its first six weeks.
there is more, hit the link

I don't know their sources.. But, if this is true, our devices are doomed.

mikeeam said:
I don't know their sources.. But, if this is true, our devices are doomed.
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No, they are not. Microsoft is in this for the long haul and have been since WinMo. You think WinMo's sales were good? Look how long the Zune lasted.
Your phone will last longer than most geeks own a handset, and at least longer than the contract people would have signed.
The only doom and gloom the nay-sayers are speculating on is if Mango will be supported by current handsets. I guess you have to panic people somehow.

imho check the pockenow.com comments
actually they tell a FAR better story about thie "sales" number
and let's not forget eldar has been wrong, and a lot. Remember the nexus one being an apple brainchild, yeah he said that...
I mean as far as reporting devices in hand he is good. But some rumors or anything, he sucks

I think we all need to calm down, enjoy our devices, and care less about unofficial announcements and rumours.

i saw few video demos by MS is working really hard to make WP7 THE os to be on mobiles....
and with Nokia on board it looks like MS will be a player as right now HTC is the biggest OEM and their 75% devices are Android.... with nokia in the game i an hoping to see much better HTC devices (as the current HD7 is not good enough)..
i will not bother what ppl say as the mango will speak for it self...
MS also have came up with tools to migrate/redevelop iOS games for WP7 with less effort, come on guys if you are using a smartphone you should be smarter then this..

imho
I am pretty sure the numbers are close to 3-4 million

Whatever it is - 2 or 3 millions, half a year after premiere is catastrophic. If you guys use WM argument, it's a bad one. I mean they are IN it for years and still not beeing able to catchup?
And actually WM finally doesn't exist anymore.
These numbers mean WP7 is selling a bit more devices A MONTH than Android A DAY. Lol.
My intuition says WP7 is not appealing for users en masse.
But market is not something you can just easily predict. Nokia deal will be probably a main changing factor.
Currently with unstoppable Android devices show and lack of any response from WP7 world things will not be better but worse. I'm afraid WP7 will became a "geek" platform.

Android has sooo many sexy new phones coming out. I'm not leaving WP7 but I am jealous of the hardware they use. A few high profile phones would help WP7 a lot.
The general public seems to think all smart phones are iPhone. There needs to be a mass marketing campaign to deprogram them.
Not a single person who has used my phone dislikes it. I'm sure if more people knew about it more people would buy it.
I am hoping that the Nokia deal puts Wp7 in the hands of millions more people. IMO it's the best mobile OS out there.

Using 2010 data he claims he received from operators and retailers, Murtazin said Microsoft only sold 674,000 WP7 units in November and December, when you take out the number of phones given to all its employees.
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Using 2010 Data
Take out employee

TIGGAH said:
Android has sooo many sexy new phones coming out. I'm not leaving WP7 but I am jealous of the hardware they use. .
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Feel the same way, especially after seeing the galaxy s2 review.

jtn04 said:
Feel the same way, especially after seeing the galaxy s2 review.
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newer hardware. newer UI. Same experience...might as well just stick with the older Android phones. The hardware doesn't even sway me anymore. Hardware is good enough to play games easily but I kinda need my phone for its phone features. Once you hit those games, battery tanks >.<
And they say that dual core saves battery life..but that's just referring to usage if the radios were off right? Because I doubt that dual core phones would speed up that radio because reviews don't mention it...so battery life won't be better at all as long as the radio is still eating up power like single core phones.
WP7 all the way for this guy. I kinda like how I'm in the same boat and will be in the same boat as other people with WP7 no matter what device they have. They get an update, I know I'll get the update too.

doministry said:
Whatever it is - 2 or 3 millions, half a year after premiere is catastrophic. If you guys use WM argument, it's a bad one. I mean they are IN it for years and still not beeing able to catchup?
And actually WM finally doesn't exist anymore.
These numbers mean WP7 is selling a bit more devices A MONTH than Android A DAY. Lol.
My intuition says WP7 is not appealing for users en masse.
But market is not something you can just easily predict. Nokia deal will be probably a main changing factor.
Currently with unstoppable Android devices show and lack of any response from WP7 world things will not be better but worse. I'm afraid WP7 will became a "geek" platform.
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android was a largely geek platform before verizon's droid does campaigns...

doministry said:
Whatever it is - 2 or 3 millions, half a year after premiere is catastrophic. If you guys use WM argument, it's a bad one. I mean they are IN it for years and still not beeing able to catchup?
And actually WM finally doesn't exist anymore.
These numbers mean WP7 is selling a bit more devices A MONTH than Android A DAY. Lol.
My intuition says WP7 is not appealing for users en masse.
But market is not something you can just easily predict. Nokia deal will be probably a main changing factor.
Currently with unstoppable Android devices show and lack of any response from WP7 world things will not be better but worse. I'm afraid WP7 will became a "geek" platform.
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How is the WM argument a bad one? My post was in response to someone saying their device was doomed. I will word this very carefully:
Your device is only doomed if development and support ceases to exist. There are two levels of support: Manufacturer (Microsoft) and Community (XDA). WinMo is not totally dead yet because of this site, nor are the devices (HD2 for example) dead yet.
In general, sales matter because without sales companies fold. But in this particular case, Microsoft will continue to do develop and support Windows Phone. The Nokia agreement was the first big, public sign of that.
I do not see Windows Phone 7 being scrapped for a Windows Phone 8 in 2012. Scrapped meaning development and support for Windows Phone 7 ceasing to exist. Will your HTC HD7 get Windows Phone 8? Who knows for sure. But Microsoft is in it to win it, no matter how long it takes.
So it would be nice for Windows Phones sales to be 10M in the first month, but not a do or die. If I did not have plans to buy an Android Tablet and replace my old notebook, I would pick up a Trophy right now (cheapest 1GHz phone I can find on the market).

A Canalys report just released implies that Q1 2011 shipments for WP7 were in the 2.4 million range. That doesn't contradict the PC Mag report, other than for the people trying to spin the 674,000 sales figures as being for the entire time since release. It does show some steady, but slow growth:
http://wmpoweruser.com/canalys-around-2-4-million-windows-phones-shipped-in-q1-2011/

nicksti said:
How is the WM argument a bad one? My post was in response to someone saying their device was doomed. I will word this very carefully:
Your device is only doomed if development and support ceases to exist. There are two levels of support: Manufacturer (Microsoft) and Community (XDA). WinMo is not totally dead yet because of this site, nor are the devices (HD2 for example) dead yet.
In general, sales matter because without sales companies fold. But in this particular case, Microsoft will continue to do develop and support Windows Phone. The Nokia agreement was the first big, public sign of that.
I do not see Windows Phone 7 being scrapped for a Windows Phone 8 in 2012. Scrapped meaning development and support for Windows Phone 7 ceasing to exist. Will your HTC HD7 get Windows Phone 8? Who knows for sure. But Microsoft is in it to win it, no matter how long it takes.
So it would be nice for Windows Phones sales to be 10M in the first month, but not a do or die. If I did not have plans to buy an Android Tablet and replace my old notebook, I would pick up a Trophy right now (cheapest 1GHz phone I can find on the market).
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That is totally true. The development keeps the platform alive and is one of the signs of it's life.
I'd never say MS has scrapped the platform for WP8. Nokia deal... Well it's not that clear for me.
However it's also true MS doesn't hurry bringing some changes which would make the platform better. No new top end devices actually is a catastrophe.
My point was the market is not predictable. So even with MS involvement lack of any success will not push it's development in the future.

ms79723 said:
newer hardware. newer UI. Same experience...might as well just stick with the older Android phones. The hardware doesn't even sway me anymore. Hardware is good enough to play games easily but I kinda need my phone for its phone features. Once you hit those games, battery tanks >.<
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It's not the same experience, if the UI is different... Unless you're using a different definition of "experience." I think that will be the case moreso for WP7 than for Android. There will be less incentive to upgrade a WP7 phone due to the limits on customization and the strict hardware specs, in addition to the "guarantee" that all handsets will get the same OS upgrades
And they say that dual core saves battery life..but that's just referring to usage if the radios were off right? Because I doubt that dual core phones would speed up that radio because reviews don't mention it...so battery life won't be better at all as long as the radio is still eating up power like single core phones.
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The radio is used the same on single and dual core phones. The Dual Cores save battery life regardless. The newer CPUs by default draw less power than the older CPUs, and running two cores at half capacity often results in less draw than running a single core at near full capacity (i.e. media playback, multi-tasking, etc.).
Again, the radio in both are pretty similar, but a more efficient processor will obviously result in less power usage. It's not hard to figure that out...
WP7 all the way for this guy. I kinda like how I'm in the same boat and will be in the same boat as other people with WP7 no matter what device they have. They get an update, I know I'll get the update too.
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The Android Manufacturers are getting better with updates as well. From the way things are looking, Epic 4G/Vibrant users in the US may get Gingerbread around the same time (if not before) WP7 devices get Mango...
IIRC, the Samsung WP7 devices are still having update issues?

nicksti said:
Microsoft is in it to win it, no matter how long it takes.
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That will not make consumers buy the phones. I think a distinction needs to be made...
Just because a company is in it to win it and spends tons of money on advertising, doesn't mean consumers will buy it.
Consumers tend to make comparative decisions. They weigh the benefits of one product towards another one.
The only way they can avoid that, is if the WP7 devices are price so low that they can win sales based on price.
But carriers will probably still subsidize them to the same price as anything else to make more profits off of them. Since most users get their phones form a carrier, well... You finish that statement.
I'm sure Microsoft wanted Microsoft Bob and Windows Me to be a winners as well...

I'm honestly tired of people saying Microsoft isn't bringing "big changes to catch up to the competition" then what in the hell is Mango? I mean, I must honestly be dreaming of it's inclusions, right? Nobody consistently *****es at Apple for not releasing OSX updates monthly to "catch Windows" do they? Would I love to see a new feature every day of my life? Sure. But for anybody with half a brain who has viewed the demoes of Mango can see how tightly integrated most of these new features are. One feature feeds into another, which feeds into another, such as the Bing searches. When Apple releases an update yearly for iOS I don't hear complaints.
Some of you guys have unrealistic expectations and have this notion that you can manage Microsoft's resources and marketing better. So, I wonder, why you aren't in their position since you can handle it so much better. I continue to point out that Microsoft hasn't gotten to their position by making bad decisions, and have actually succeeded at almost every thing they have ever entered... Regardless of what was necessary.
Mango addresses a significant number of complaints, and these features aren't implemented in two days time. Software development takes a significant amount of time. We have companies dedicated to one program, ONE, and it takes them a year+ to release a miniscule update.
People also fail to remember than Android was a "failure" by most of your standards until Verizon completely took over their marketing campaign with their Droid advertisements filling up every other commercial slot. Now, regardless of carrier or device, an Android phone is dubbed a "Droid" and it's owner will tell you that it "Does." Eventually, Windows Phone WILL reach this level, this is Microsoft we're speaking about here.
I understand you guys are upset that it isn't Windows Phone, but to dub it a failure and to remove credit from Microsoft from scrapping a known enterprise system and diving head first into a consumer oriented "pretty" phone market is also unfair to this company. Call me a fan boy, but I see myself more of a realist, and having a father which develops extremely important software for a living, I understand this takes time.

N8ter said:
That will not make consumers buy the phones. I think a distinction needs to be made...
Just because a company is in it to win it and spends tons of money on advertising, doesn't mean consumers will buy it.
Consumers tend to make comparative decisions. They weigh the benefits of one product towards another one.
The only way they can avoid that, is if the WP7 devices are price so low that they can win sales based on price.
But carriers will probably still subsidize them to the same price as anything else to make more profits off of them. Since most users get their phones form a carrier, well... You finish that statement.
I'm sure Microsoft wanted Microsoft Bob and Windows Me to be a winners as well...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
N8ter,
If your reponse is your expansion then I think you need to say it, because too often it seems what you are responding to something that was not said.
I did not say Microsoft being in it to win it would affect sales positively. Actually none of what I said had anything to do with increased sales. A poster made a statement saying if it is all true about the low sales then his/her phone is doomed. My response was just saying even though ordinarily poor sales will doom products, Windows Phone will not be doomed so easily. I also tried to define what doom meant.
It will take more than 1 year of poor sales to doom Windows Phone.
Fresh comment:
There are people on this board that believe the poor response to Windows Phone is due to its lack of features and it being a beta os.
Question - What due diligence does the average person do before picking up a contract phone?
Here is my thinking - even some nerds on this forum did not fully understand what they were getting into. In theory the fresh looking UI and the device offering should have been enough.
I do not know but the average person would not have known Windows Phone could not do custom ringtones. Or sync natively with Outlook. Or all the other stuff. They would have asked about features like: Wifi, 3G, Video Calling (not there), Facebook, Emails, etc. In theory they would have bought it, a sale would be registered, and they would have returned it. Companies tend to conveniently tell you sales, not sales minus returns.
I do not know the answer, but I suspect the answer is not easy.

Ballmer: Windows Phones aren't selling very well, but we're not worried

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/15/ballmer-windows-phones-arent-selling-very-well-but-were-not/
Thoughts?

I don't see how it could have been different:
- WP pre-mango is lacking
- advertsing went from light to inexistant
- there haven't been new handsets (ports to other carriers don't count)
- manufacturers aren't bothered
- carriers aren't bothered
- some services and apps are limited to the US
- XBL has been poor overall
- there's a new android phone almost every week
I'm sure I could still go for a bit but yeah, no surprise there.

Peew971 said:
I don't see how it could have been different:
- WP pre-mango is lacking
- advertsing went from light to inexistant
- there haven't been new handsets (ports to other carriers don't count)
- manufacturers aren't bothered
- carriers aren't bothered
- some services and apps are limited to the US
- XBL has been poor overall
- there's a new android phone almost every week
I'm sure I could still go for a bit but yeah, no surprise there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I were a financial analyst interested in MS's mobile performance for whatever weird reason, I'd certainly ask what's going to be different from now on to change the situation.
If Nokia and Mango are everything Microsoft has to offer, prospects are rather weak in the near term. Nokia is struggling across the world and across the whole line of its products. Mango brings changes which aren't visible easily, and they matter for those who already use the product.
Neither carriers nor OEMs (apart from Nokia) are excited about WP7 any more than they were a year ago. Services are still limited. XBL didn't really change at all. Android handsets will still be popping up every week. There are a few new handsets which will basically replace year-old devices, but Titan and Radar seem to be really overpriced and not anything groundbreaking. Nokia doesn't seem to be able to offer much until next year, one device with limited distribution won't be a game changer.
Improved international presence will certainly increase the numbers, but that will double sales in the most optimistic scenario. Other than that, I don't see anything. Those "hundreds" of salespeople MS is hiring to work with retail worldwide is nothing unless each one of them is capable of being present at hundreds of places simultaneously. That Microsoft will suddenly learn how to do marketing properly is absolutely unbelievable.

vangrieg said:
If I were a financial analyst interested in MS's mobile performance for whatever weird reason, I'd certainly ask what's going to be different from now on to change the situation.
If Nokia and Mango are everything Microsoft has to offer, prospects are rather weak in the near term. Nokia is struggling across the world and across the whole line of its products. Mango brings changes which aren't visible easily, and they matter for those who already use the product.
Neither carriers nor OEMs (apart from Nokia) are excited about WP7 any more than they were a year ago. Services are still limited. XBL didn't really change at all. Android handsets will still be popping up every week. There are a few new handsets which will basically replace year-old devices, but Titan and Radar seem to be really overpriced and not anything groundbreaking. Nokia doesn't seem to be able to offer much until next year, one device with limited distribution won't be a game changer.
Improved international presence will certainly increase the numbers, but that will double sales in the most optimistic scenario. Other than that, I don't see anything. Those "hundreds" of salespeople MS is hiring to work with retail worldwide is nothing unless each one of them is capable of being present at hundreds of places simultaneously. That Microsoft will suddenly learn how to do marketing properly is absolutely unbelievable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Despite all the doom and gloom, I for one am glad I have a choice and am not forced to use an iphone or android if I want a modern smartphone OS. The anti-MS, anti-WP7 bias is real and true (not least here on this forum) but as long as there is a WP OS that is supported by Microsoft, sales numbers and popularity notwithstanding, that is all I will be buying.

Well the fact that Windows phone 7 wasn't selling well was an already known fact. they only manage to get their moneis from royalties.

efjay said:
Despite all the doom and gloom, I for one am glad I have a choice and am not forced to use an iphone or android if I want a modern smartphone OS. The anti-MS, anti-WP7 bias is real and true (not least here on this forum) but as long as there is a WP OS that is supported by Microsoft, sales numbers and popularity notwithstanding, that is all I will be buying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, so will I. The topic is about sales though, and I'm not too optimistic about this area now.
I'm sure WP7 won't be abandoned anytime soon so it's not that big of a deal for me personally, but low sales do affect me and you, at least indirectly. I'm less than happy about device selection, for example. Another problem is that MS has been given a lot of credit by developers, but this can't last forever. Sales will have to pick up to keep apps flowing to the platform.

That's what happens when they release a smartphone with no features (no common features of the day).
They can't expect to gain any kind of a market when the competition has everything the user wants and their offerings don't.

MartyLK said:
They can't expect to gain any kind of a market when the competition has everything the user wants and their offerings don't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bet the name of the OS hurt sales 10 times more than the feature set.

As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy. Zune never caught on, but I was happy with that. When WP7 came out, I passed those on to other family members and they enjoy them. I've come to the point where what you like doesn't affect my enjoyment. Heck, if the WP7 marketplace is compatible with windows 8 I doubt I'd care much if WP7 died.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

macjr82 said:
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.

Peew971 said:
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..why to be so anxious? Mango is right on the door steps, Samsung, HTC and others are coming with new devices this year. Nokia will be on the market soon...
So the OS and Hardware are at the same level as Apple and Android... And I think you also got the news that WP7 apps will also run on Windows 8...So what do you think the developers will do.....?

macjr82 said:
As long as WP7 exists and continues to get dev support I'm happy. Zune never caught on, but I was happy with that. When WP7 came out, I passed those on to other family members and they enjoy them. I've come to the point where what you like doesn't affect my enjoyment. Heck, if the WP7 marketplace is compatible with windows 8 I doubt I'd care much if WP7 died.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well windows phones aren't selling but it isn't due to product its due to a lot of other factors...

I'm not worried. WP7 isn't going anywhere and when Windows 8 and WP8 are released that fact that both will be able share apps will push the sales of WP8 devices.
PCs, Slates, Mobile, Xbox. One UI to rule them all.

FTC said:
the OS and Hardware are at the same level as Apple and Android...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Software is pretty close, hardware isn't.

I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.

Peew971 said:
Well that's the thing, if it doesn't sell it will eventually lose dev support so you do need it to succeed somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but this is Microsoft we are talking about. They have too much money to ever lose Dev suport.
Sent from my T8788 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

RoboDad said:
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows Mobile wasn't really succeeding that much for years and it didn't stop them.

That's true, but the market is different now than it was then. Look how quickly they pulled the plug on the Kin.
And, at its peak, Windows Mobile was quite a bit more successful than WP7 is right now. That's why I think the next 6 months are so crucial.

version numbers dont matter
In this segment, version numbers don't matter. Ms could name it wp99999 (5 9s reference) and no one would care. Its about innovating and unfortunately hardware specs... the UI can only go so far in convincing folks.
Kin has already been mentioned...
I read balmers comments too- that does not sound like an executive with any confidence in a product to me. If he isn't behind it, who is ? Developers won't matter if the os gets the axe from upstairs. Also, it looks very bad to investors and other workers when a failing segment gets money poured into it.
What to do ?
Open the floodgates, subsidize phones for $1 each out the door, and pay off every hardware maker to make more phones.
Will it happen ? Nope.
The people want BOOM! Today, not promises of it sometime soon.

RoboDad said:
I'm not worried (yet), but it is far too early to assume that we have any kind of guarantee that WP8 will ever be released. It all depends on sales over the next 6 months. If they start to trend upward, then chances are the platform will continue. If they trend downward, carriers and handset makers will lose interest in pushing the phones, and Microsoft may stop development for it. That would not (or should not) affect the direction of Windows 8 for desktops, laptops and tablets, but it could mean the end of Microsoft's involvement in the smartphone business.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely no chance MS is just going to just up and stop developing WP7. Especially in just 6 months. First thing that comes to mind is how they approached the original Xbox. Lost millions (if not billions) for years but stuck with it. The outlay for WP7 is hardly in the same territory so cost wise thats not a reason for them.
If OEM's bail, we know Nokia wont be one of them. For them to do a reversal would be the death knell for them so no matter what they are going to stick with WP7, even if they have to give it away.
Another reason is WP is becoming a critical part of the ecosystem MS wants to pitch to consumers and businesses. If they abandon it are they going to be using iphone or android to push MS services and software? Even when WM was unpopular they still had some place for it, I dont see them using a competitor's smartphone as the focus for their software. Its one way they can get consumers and businesses into the MS world (as apple is doing) so it would be hard for them to essentially just give up a crucial way to get more people using Microsoft software and services.
Worse case scenario, I see MS and Nokia going it alone, but when it comes down to it thats not a bad combination. I know this forum would love to see WP7 go away, but history has shown us how persistent MS can be, and this is one sector of the market that is too important to think they would just walk away. Windows Phone is a long, long way from going anywhere.

An idea for the poor ones with no WP8 update.

Been thinking a bit.
I have been waiting for a Nokia WP phone since dec.2011. I'm sure that just like many of you, I have been disappointed by the lack of WP8 update.
But then, I looked at my phone.
I currently own a Motorola defy +, a device which currently is stuck at Android 2.3.4. I never got a 4.0 update for my phone. The reason? Phone stability. The community did indeed attempt to port 4.0 on my phone, but sadly, I see it as a potential failure; there are still lots of bugs to iron out, and it will take more time to fix than what I suppose the devs will ever waste time on.
Do I complain? Hardly. I complain about the OS being Android and thus a cheap, unstable OS. But nothing else.
So, 2.3 isn't that bad, and 4.0 isn't that necessary. I live with it.
Now, how I see stuff in the WP universe?
7.8 isn't that bad, and 8.0 isn't that necessary.
I live with it.
And honestly, I am really tempted to get a lumia 800. And maybe even will. I seriously doubt that cheap 8 phones will appear instantly, since people want dual-cores and more RAM, and, and...
But I think that WP7.8 will remain the cheap version of 8, and that we will even see new phones with 7.8 on board. All for the sake of OS stability.
You can't be the fastest guy with your tech stuff unless you're bloody rich.

I think most people who panicked for not having Windows 8 on their phones are more so because they think:
a) They won't have new apps instantly
b) Devs won't develop anything new instantly
c) New features won't come to their phone instantly
I've spent my Sunday watching that video from Dev summit again. I am going to swallow my posts from earlier (full of optimism, they were) and say that no, we might after all not get any features from WP8 but only the start screen. But then you know what? I am fine with that.
Just like you said, OS wise - those who purchased Lumias or Titans, surely were and are happy with the OS as it is, else why would they shell out so many pounds for a phone. Now that we've established that people are happy with their phone in the state in which they bought it, let us talk about 'support'.
I am fine with the whole idea because, I have convinced myself that new apps won't stop coming instantly, devs won't stop developing instantly, new features won't stop coming to my phone instantly. For at least another year after the launch of WP8, things will stay as they are. Then, WP *might* die. Because I haven't forgotten how long it took them to kill WM6.5, I know it will take them even longer while Nokia uses their Lumias as low end phones.
Here is an example - An Eclair (2.1 phone) is still being sold and purchased for about £190 on play.com while we have what 2 or 3 (?) Android ICS phones out in the wild? http://www.play.com/Mobiles/Mobile/...apixel-Touch-Screen-Mobile-Phone/Product.html
Now if you consider WP7.8 to be WP ICS, then by that analogy, WP7.5 is an Froyo phone for WP range. I don't see why Nokia or any other OEMs can't offer at least for another year, WP7.8 (aka ICS WP) along with WP8 (aka Jelly bean WP). Nokia's Lumia 710 (Mango aka Froyo-like) phone is being sold for £130 currently anyway!
At least for WP, ALL apps and games run on its Eclair (pre-NoDo), Froyo (Mango), Gingerbread (Tango), WP7.8 (ICS) and WP8 (Jelly bean)!
What we are forgetting in mid of all these first world crisis is that Nokia's attempt to save itself also includes re-entering the market + attracting those feature phone users for whom WP7 or WP7.5 or WP7.8 = a smartphone because they need a phone to text, call, email and use couple of apps at max!
I am going to leave this post here and will come back to say I told you so (hopefully) a year after WP8 launch, when MSFT would have supported all the Lumias and Titans for 18 months at least by then

That is the big question: what will the Windows Phone answer for the low-end and emerging market? Will it be these running 7.8 or 8? Honestly, I cannot see Microsoft wanting both to co-exist for very long.
To MS, 7 has not been exactly a big hit with the general public. Plus, I would think that Microsoft would want to get all Windows Phone users onto 8 as soon as possible. That way, they can grow the platform the fastest without being dragged down by the old OS. When WP8 launches later this year, they want a big splash where lots of people buy into it right away. They cannot afford no interest or even a lackluster response. That is why I think Nokia and/or Microsoft should consider a trade-in program where WP7 users get some sort of discount on a WP8 device. At least this way, the tech news websites will report that WP8 is off to a great start. When 7 was launched, there were sites that called it DOA.

drupad2drupad said:
I think most people who panicked for not having Windows 8 on their phones are more so because they think:
a) They won't have new apps instantly
b) Devs won't develop anything new instantly
c) New features won't come to their phone instantly
I've spent my Sunday watching that video from Dev summit again. I am going to swallow my posts from earlier (full of optimism, they were) and say that no, we might after all not get any features from WP8 but only the start screen. But then you know what? I am fine with that.
Just like you said, OS wise - those who purchased Lumias or Titans, surely were and are happy with the OS as it is, else why would they shell out so many pounds for a phone. Now that we've established that people are happy with their phone in the state in which they bought it, let us talk about 'support'.
I am fine with the whole idea because, I have convinced myself that new apps won't stop coming instantly, devs won't stop developing instantly, new features won't stop coming to my phone instantly. For at least another year after the launch of WP8, things will stay as they are. Then, WP *might* die. Because I haven't forgotten how long it took them to kill WM6.5, I know it will take them even longer while Nokia uses their Lumias as low end phones.
Here is an example - An Eclair (2.1 phone) is still being sold and purchased for about £190 on play.com while we have what 2 or 3 (?) Android ICS phones out in the wild? http://www.play.com/Mobiles/Mobile/...apixel-Touch-Screen-Mobile-Phone/Product.html
Now if you consider WP7.8 to be WP ICS, then by that analogy, WP7.5 is an Froyo phone for WP range. I don't see why Nokia or any other OEMs can't offer at least for another year, WP7.8 (aka ICS WP) along with WP8 (aka Jelly bean WP). Nokia's Lumia 710 (Mango aka Froyo-like) phone is being sold for £130 currently anyway!
At least for WP, ALL apps and games run on its Eclair (pre-NoDo), Froyo (Mango), Gingerbread (Tango), WP7.8 (ICS) and WP8 (Jelly bean)!
What we are forgetting in mid of all these first world crisis is that Nokia's attempt to save itself also includes re-entering the market + attracting those feature phone users for whom WP7 or WP7.5 or WP7.8 = a smartphone because they need a phone to text, call, email and use couple of apps at max!
I am going to leave this post here and will come back to say I told you so (hopefully) a year after WP8 launch, when MSFT would have supported all the Lumias and Titans for 18 months at least by then
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And may I add to those users who purchased your phones in the last 6 months, what is wrong with your phone now? Has it contracted a mobile virus since last Wednesday that has rendered it useless? Does it not perform the same as the day you bought it? If your answer is "no" to any of the above, then you need to see a professional. You have panicked yourselves into a frenzy that requires medication.

drupad2drupad said:
I think most people who panicked for not having Windows 8 on their phones are more so because they think:
a) They won't have new apps instantly
b) Devs won't develop anything new instantly
c) New features won't come to their phone instantly
I've spent my Sunday watching that video from Dev summit again. I am going to swallow my posts from earlier (full of optimism, they were) and say that no, we might after all not get any features from WP8 but only the start screen. But then you know what? I am fine with that.
Just like you said, OS wise - those who purchased Lumias or Titans, surely were and are happy with the OS as it is, else why would they shell out so many pounds for a phone. Now that we've established that people are happy with their phone in the state in which they bought it, let us talk about 'support'.
I am fine with the whole idea because, I have convinced myself that new apps won't stop coming instantly, devs won't stop developing instantly, new features won't stop coming to my phone instantly. For at least another year after the launch of WP8, things will stay as they are. Then, WP *might* die. Because I haven't forgotten how long it took them to kill WM6.5, I know it will take them even longer while Nokia uses their Lumias as low end phones.
Here is an example - An Eclair (2.1 phone) is still being sold and purchased for about £190 on play.com while we have what 2 or 3 (?) Android ICS phones out in the wild? http://www.play.com/Mobiles/Mobile/...apixel-Touch-Screen-Mobile-Phone/Product.html
Now if you consider WP7.8 to be WP ICS, then by that analogy, WP7.5 is an Froyo phone for WP range. I don't see why Nokia or any other OEMs can't offer at least for another year, WP7.8 (aka ICS WP) along with WP8 (aka Jelly bean WP). Nokia's Lumia 710 (Mango aka Froyo-like) phone is being sold for £130 currently anyway!
At least for WP, ALL apps and games run on its Eclair (pre-NoDo), Froyo (Mango), Gingerbread (Tango), WP7.8 (ICS) and WP8 (Jelly bean)!
What we are forgetting in mid of all these first world crisis is that Nokia's attempt to save itself also includes re-entering the market + attracting those feature phone users for whom WP7 or WP7.5 or WP7.8 = a smartphone because they need a phone to text, call, email and use couple of apps at max!
I am going to leave this post here and will come back to say I told you so (hopefully) a year after WP8 launch, when MSFT would have supported all the Lumias and Titans for 18 months at least by then
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Change the third instantly to forever and change another two instantly to probably would be the correct answer, though no one would like to commit the fact.:cyclops:
A smartphone without proper apps is just a dumbphone. For those who lives well without apps, low end Android and Symbian phones would fit their needs while saving their money, why bother spending more than 500EUR for such a device? (Don't tell me the AT&T offer unless you can bring it worldwide) Let's see how M$ deal with this situation.

fatclue said:
And may I add to those users who purchased your phones in the last 6 months, what is wrong with your phone now? Has it contracted a mobile virus since last Wednesday that has rendered it useless? Does it not perform the same as the day you bought it? If your answer is "no" to any of the above, then you need to see a professional. You have panicked yourselves into a frenzy that requires medication.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol you think you are smart by saing that...but you dont know everything...you haven't considered a lot of things.
Do you consider it is fair...for a user to spend 400€ for a high end device, only to find 3 months later that all the support (updates + apps) is gone?
Make no mistake...a smart dev will code for wp8 because he writes 1app and he gets 3, with very little effort. And so the apps for wp7 will stop flowing...and a phone with no apps is allmost useless. To demonstrate this...try reseting your phone and use it without any aditional apps for a month...see how that turns out.
More over, MS is refering to 2nd gen as legacy devices, as if my lumia 800 was released in 2005, and there is talk that wp 7.8 devices will be sold as a low end version of wp8 Thats exactly what i imagined when i made the switch to lumia and please tell me how would you feel if you phone, that you worked so hard to get, would be considered a low-end device in a few months
MS is making this even worse by not porting all the possible features to wp 7.8.
So pls excuse me if i vent my anger on MS and ppl like you that support its decision so blindly.
Yes i am very happy with my lumia and this will not change, but the public opinion will.
You must understand that the current wp users, as myself, made the decision to go with WP because we didnt like android and ios, even if everyone uses ios and android. We, as wp users where going to battle against ios and android showing that it can be done better. I saw great potential in the OS and trusted MS and Nokia to deliver. Insted the whole thing backfires and MS abandons its efforts on the OS and breaks all promises and trust to the users.
People like me are beging to realise the actual interst of a company, and this is sad because we trusted MS, they involve themselves in so many student projects and are not afraid to inovate, but they dont really care about the users, they just care about the money. They abandoned wm 6.5 now wp 7.8 ... Whats next

Frosty3k said:
Do you consider it is fair...for a user to spend 400€ for a high end device, only to find 3 months later that all the support (updates + apps) is gone?
Make no mistake...a smart dev will code for wp8 because he writes 1app and he gets 3, with very little effort. And so the apps for wp7 will stop flowing...and a phone with no apps is allmost useless. To demonstrate this...try reseting your phone and use it without any aditional apps for a month...see how that turns out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I myself have considered a lot of things about the WP7.8 update, but I didn't realize MS disallows the use of apps as soon as WP8 is released... oh, wait. it doesn't!
The WP7 Marketplace will not instantly disappear. You will still be able to install all of the apps already in the marketplace. Granted, the flow of apps *might* slow down but surely it wont stop instantly seeing as WP8 needs to gain adoption before being a reasonable mobile ecosystem to abandon WP7. But WP7 has a magnitude of apps already available to its disposal that cover a lot of functions so your phone will not be useless unless it is already useless.

Frosty3k said:
Do you consider it is fair...for a user to spend 400€ for a high end device, only to find 3 months later that all the support (updates + apps) is gone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats odd, I must admit... You claim that WP7 won't be updated, but later on you acknowledge that WP7.8 is coming - don't you feel you're contradicting yourself just a little bit?
Frosty3k said:
and please tell me how would you feel if you phone, that you worked so hard to get, would be considered a low-end device in a few months
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, I never realized that Nokia stated that the Lumia 800 is a high-end device as it was clearly NOT - it was a common knowledge that Nokia can and will introduce a more advanced device after the Lumia 800 (which was indeed the Lumia 900) and moreover - even the Lumia 900 was not supposed to be "high-end" but more of a "mid-high-end" as high-end devices which are TRULY high-end and are already sold in the market (with dual and quad cores) are not supported in the current version of WP7, and the MS-Nokia hardware leap will not occur until WP8 is released...
Ah, and BTW - A device which you just bought theoretically WILL BE old and maybe even low-end in just a few months. Thats the nature of this market, where the technology pace is leaping a whole generation in less than a year - you can NEVER win this race, you just have to buy the most suitable device for you at the moment and replace it after a year if you wish to keep yourself "up-to-date" hardware-wise...

Frosty3k said:
lol you think you are smart by saing that...but you dont know everything...you haven't considered a lot of things.
Do you consider it is fair...for a user to spend 400€ for a high end device, only to find 3 months later that all the support (updates + apps) is gone?
Make no mistake...a smart dev will code for wp8 because he writes 1app and he gets 3, with very little effort. And so the apps for wp7 will stop flowing...and a phone with no apps is allmost useless. To demonstrate this...try reseting your phone and use it without any aditional apps for a month...see how that turns out.
More over, MS is refering to 2nd gen as legacy devices, as if my lumia 800 was released in 2005, and there is talk that wp 7.8 devices will be sold as a low end version of wp8 Thats exactly what i imagined when i made the switch to lumia and please tell me how would you feel if you phone, that you worked so hard to get, would be considered a low-end device in a few months
MS is making this even worse by not porting all the possible features to wp 7.8.
So pls excuse me if i vent my anger on MS and ppl like you that support its decision so blindly.
Yes i am very happy with my lumia and this will not change, but the public opinion will.
You must understand that the current wp users, as myself, made the decision to go with WP because we didnt like android and ios, even if everyone uses ios and android. We, as wp users where going to battle against ios and android showing that it can be done better. I saw great potential in the OS and trusted MS and Nokia to deliver. Insted the whole thing backfires and MS abandons its efforts on the OS and breaks all promises and trust to the users.
People like me are beging to realise the actual interst of a company, and this is sad because we trusted MS, they involve themselves in so many student projects and are not afraid to inovate, but they dont really care about the users, they just care about the money. They abandoned wm 6.5 now wp 7.8 ... Whats next
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may not be as smart as you since you seem to have a crystal ball that the rest of us lack. Please provide one link, just one will do, where Microsoft has said that "all the support (updates + apps) is gone?". You've been a member here since January so I'm confident you have read articles regarding the state of affairs with Windows Phone. In all that time you didn't catch one single article that stated that legacy devices were probably NOT going to get Apollo? That's a 50/50 proposition. If you like those odds then Vegas is your kind of town. Oh wait, that's right, you have a crystal ball. Face it, you saved up some money and were itching to go out and spend it immediately without considering that tech items change very rapidly.

Questions
Just few questions guys.
1. MSFT and other WP manufacturers are still selling WP7 devices. If you want a WP, are you gonna buy now? Why?
2. Is it worthy to buy WP7 at this time? Why?
3. I have WP7 2nd Gen, are you going to advise me to buy WP8 when it come out in market? why?
By the way, I have heard that Nokia dropped sales at its worst in 16 yrs after MSFT announced that they(MSFT) are not gonna update current WP device to WP8. Some manufacturers stopped WP7 production and will wait until WP8 came out. But some won't participate in WP8 trend.
4. What might be the reason why Nokia's sales went down in full blast? I believe some other manufacturers have the same scenario but not as same as what happened with Nokia.
5. What do you think why WP sales went down?

efektos said:
Thats odd, I must admit... You claim that WP7 won't be updated, but later on you acknowledge that WP7.8 is coming - don't you feel you're contradicting yourself just a little bit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
After the 7.8 startscreen lands on current 7.5 hardware you can wave BB to updates...thats it...MS will be all about the new wp8. Pls dont play stupid on this..you know what we are talking about.
efektos said:
First, I never realized that Nokia stated that the Lumia 800 is a high-end device as it was clearly NOT - it was a common knowledge that Nokia can and will introduce a more advanced device after the Lumia 800 (which was indeed the Lumia 900) and moreover - even the Lumia 900 was not supposed to be "high-end" but more of a "mid-high-end" as high-end devices which are TRULY high-end and are already sold in the market (with dual and quad cores) are not supported in the current version of WP7, and the MS-Nokia hardware leap will not occur until WP8 is released...
Ah, and BTW - A device which you just bought theoretically WILL BE old and maybe even low-end in just a few months. Thats the nature of this market, where the technology pace is leaping a whole generation in less than a year - you can NEVER win this race, you just have to buy the most suitable device for you at the moment and replace it after a year if you wish to keep yourself "up-to-date" hardware-wise...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
a giro and a ff camera dosen't make a phone that much better 800 and 900 are almost the same, except the 900 was built primarily as an US device, while the 800 has the right form factor for EU and Asia.
I wont debate over what you said about the lumia 800 not being high end...its a matter of opinion. Actually I'll go into into in just a bit
For example i dont find the GSIII to be a better phone. I dosent matter how many CPUs you have and how much ram...its how you use those resources..and that GSIII still lags...but other users that are not so mad with android...might like it 10 times more than a lumia. It depends on what you like, and over the years, I realized its a loosing battle trying to convince someone that your point of view is the right one.
That being said, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make in my post, your reply is offtopic, and i have the feeling you are arguing just for the sake or arguing.

ebautista said:
Just few questions guys.
1. MSFT and other WP manufacturers are still selling WP7 devices. If you want a WP, are you gonna buy now? Why?
2. Is it worthy to buy WP7 at this time? Why?
3. I have WP7 2nd Gen, are you going to advise me to buy WP8 when it come out in market? why?
By the way, I have heard that Nokia dropped sales at its worst in 16 yrs after MSFT announced that they(MSFT) are not gonna update current WP device to WP8. Some manufacturers stopped WP7 production and will wait until WP8 came out. But some won't participate in WP8 trend.
4. What might be the reason why Nokia's sales went down in full blast? I believe some other manufacturers have the same scenario but not as same as what happened with Nokia.
4. What do you think why WP sales went down?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You said "4." 2 times.

fatclue said:
I may not be as smart as you since you seem to have a crystal ball that the rest of us lack. Please provide one link, just one will do, where Microsoft has said that "all the support (updates + apps) is gone?". You've been a member here since January so I'm confident you have read articles regarding the state of affairs with Windows Phone. In all that time you didn't catch one single article that stated that legacy devices were probably NOT going to get Apollo? That's a 50/50 proposition. If you like those odds then Vegas is your kind of town. Oh wait, that's right, you have a crystal ball. Face it, you saved up some money and were itching to go out and spend it immediately without considering that tech items change very rapidly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i believe it will not "gone". But slowly will go down. If WP8 will release, developers will be divided. Some will do native (C/C++), some will stay in wp7 coz MSFT said WP7 apps will still run in WP8, and some will do both but of course eventually will stop supporting wp7 as time goes.
---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------
OptimusLove said:
You said "4." 2 times.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
updated. thanks man!

fatclue said:
I may not be as smart as you since you seem to have a crystal ball that the rest of us lack. Please provide one link, just one will do, where Microsoft has said that "all the support (updates + apps) is gone?". You've been a member here since January so I'm confident you have read articles regarding the state of affairs with Windows Phone. In all that time you didn't catch one single article that stated that legacy devices were probably NOT going to get Apollo? That's a 50/50 proposition. If you like those odds then Vegas is your kind of town. Oh wait, that's right, you have a crystal ball. Face it, you saved up some money and were itching to go out and spend it immediately without considering that tech items change very rapidly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont have a crystal ball, i have a brain, and im not sure which one of those two you're missing.
Think about it, what happened to WM6.5? how many updates did the OS get after it was ditched? not to mention that the store was closed. What do you think it will happen to WP7.x ? crystal ball anyone ?
I know how things run in the industry, I've been taking part in this for a long time, but i have never seen something fade this quickly. The lumia phones are not even a year old
who does this?? apple? i dont think so, you can still get new apps on a 3GS that is a 3 year old phone...google?? no...you can get all the stuff you like and more on a galaxy S or htc desire, 2 years old....and you will continue to get new stuff for much more.
look..its not about Apollo, its about the fact that wp8 apps cant run on wp7 hardware....this is fatal for 7.x
because of this the app well will dry out, the big players will code on wp8 and all the new stuff will be there...even if there are devs still loyal to wp7.x...the game is over for the 7.x market.
If you take into consideration other platforms, this wasn't supposed to happen...and thats why people are mad, because they feel used, we where like bait used just to get to 100000 apps, then thrown away ... you cant blame the people for feeling this way...I think they have every rite to do so, but hey should be mad on MS, and somehow i think Nokia will be more affected ...
continuity is key in this war of ecosystems.

Frosty3k said:
I dont have a crystal ball, i have a brain, and im not sure which one of those two you're missing.
Think about it, what happened to WM6.5? how many updates did the OS get after it was ditched? not to mention that the store was closed. What do you think it will happen to WP7.x ? crystal ball anyone ?
I know how things run in the industry, I've been taking part in this for a long time, but i have never seen something fade this quickly. The lumia phones are not even a year old
who does this?? apple? i dont think so, you can still get new apps on a 3GS that is a 3 year old phone...google?? no...you can get all the stuff you like and more on a galaxy S or htc desire, 2 years old....and you will continue to get new stuff for much more.
look..its not about Apollo, its about the fact that wp8 apps cant run on wp7 hardware....this is fatal for 7.x
because of this the app well will dry out, the big players will code on wp8 and all the new stuff will be there...even if there are devs still loyal to wp7.x...the game is over for the 7.x market.
If you take into consideration other platforms, this wasn't supposed to happen...and thats why people are mad, because they feel used, we where like bait used just to get to 100000 apps, then thrown away ... you cant blame the people for feeling this way...I think they have every rite to do so, but hey should be mad on MS, and somehow i think Nokia will be more affected ...
continuity is key in this war of ecosystems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In case you missed it, the 6.5 Marketplace shut down last month. Yes, May 2012. Sorry Sparky, your gloom and doom forecasts are way out of whack. I still use WM and it works the same, if not better than, as it did 3 years ago. There is no self-destruct button on these things once a newer system comes to town. Face it, technology moves faster than your 2-year contract. Why do I even bother wasting my time? I'm out.

I own lumia 800. The OS 7.5 doesn't have the basic features like call timer in call history. Do you think we can live with that. I bought this phone trusting MS and nokia that they would bring in the proper updates. Now its all gone... I am a loyal user of windows phone. I am using windows phone since WM 2003 SE.
EDIT: WP 7 & 7.5 were only a beta test!!! They USED us
---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------
OptimusLove said:
You said "4." 2 times.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. MSFT and other WP manufacturers are still selling WP7 devices. If you want a WP, are you gonna buy now? Why?
I will not buy a WP ever again. Only some one who doesnt know anything about the phone would buy Wp 7 now.
2. Is it worthy to buy WP7 at this time? Why?
NO
3. I have WP7 2nd Gen, are you going to advise me to buy WP8 when it come out in market? why?
We have spent a fortune buying lumia 800 and 900 we dont want to spend again atleast for 1.5 or 2 years
By the way, I have heard that Nokia dropped sales at its worst in 16 yrs after MSFT announced that they(MSFT) are not gonna update current WP device to WP8. Some manufacturers stopped WP7 production and will wait until WP8 came out. But some won't participate in WP8 trend.
4. What might be the reason why Nokia's sales went down in full blast? I believe some other manufacturers have the same scenario but not as same as what happened with Nokia.
They would have anticipated it but not this much. Maybe MS is playing in such a way to reduce the market share of nokia to buy it for cheap price
5. What do you think why WP sales went down?
Word of mouth. I tell everyone not to buy a WP

rajan17_88 said:
I own lumia 800. The OS 7.5 doesn't have the basic features like call timer in call history. Do you think we can live with that. I bought this phone trusting MS and nokia that they would bring in the proper updates. Now its all gone... I am a loyal user of windows phone. I am using windows phone since WM 2003 SE.
EDIT: WP 7 & 7.5 were only a beta test!!! They USED us
---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------
1. MSFT and other WP manufacturers are still selling WP7 devices. If you want a WP, are you gonna buy now? Why?
I will not buy a WP ever again. Only some one who doesnt know anything about the phone would buy Wp 7 now.
2. Is it worthy to buy WP7 at this time? Why?
NO
3. I have WP7 2nd Gen, are you going to advise me to buy WP8 when it come out in market? why?
We have spent a fortune buying lumia 800 and 900 we dont want to spend again atleast for 1.5 or 2 years
By the way, I have heard that Nokia dropped sales at its worst in 16 yrs after MSFT announced that they(MSFT) are not gonna update current WP device to WP8. Some manufacturers stopped WP7 production and will wait until WP8 came out. But some won't participate in WP8 trend.
4. What might be the reason why Nokia's sales went down in full blast? I believe some other manufacturers have the same scenario but not as same as what happened with Nokia.
They would have anticipated it but not this much. Maybe MS is playing in such a way to reduce the market share of nokia to buy it for cheap price
5. What do you think why WP sales went down?
Word of mouth. I tell everyone not to buy a WP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What are you going to buy instead?
Android? Never guranteed to upgrade and most apps only work on top end devices
iPhone? same UI as last 4 years, and one year old iPhone being left out of big features
The grass is not greener on the other side.
On the contary Nokia have the best record of updating phones out of any manufacturers out there. Even my Nokia 5800 which is now 4 years old still gets regular updates.

1/ Android does many things. It is nearly complete feature-wise. My HTC G2 runs like a champ. Plus everybody knows about droid fragmented updates but they don't care, the thing is live, not beta.
2/ I hate iPhone because it is expensive and full of fanboism. Still it is better for 1 year old phone to miss only one or two exclusively new features than a six-month old to get only one new visual feature and miss out the functional rest. See the difference there?
v_garg said:
What are you going to buy instead?
Android? Never guranteed to upgrade and most apps only work on top end devices
iPhone? same UI as last 4 years, and one year old iPhone being left out of big features
The grass is not greener on the other side.
On the contary Nokia have the best record of updating phones out of any manufacturers out there. Even my Nokia 5800 which is now 4 years old still gets regular updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

v_garg said:
What are you going to buy instead?
Android? Never guranteed to upgrade and most apps only work on top end devices
iPhone? same UI as last 4 years, and one year old iPhone being left out of big features
The grass is not greener on the other side.
On the contary Nokia have the best record of updating phones out of any manufacturers out there. Even my Nokia 5800 which is now 4 years old still gets regular updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will even consider buying blackberry or iPhone just for their customer support which is way better than MS support.

WP8 has a user base of zero right now - and is unlikely to be more than WP7 by the end of the year .. why will devs not write for wp7 as well as WP8 ? for the majority of apps the Silverlight/XNA is fine.. for the Apps for which this not true then they won't run anyhow.. not at all like WM6.5 - in that case none of the apps were x-compatible to WP7 and you had to start again.. clearly not the case here..
Oh, and what's with the "M$" nonsense - like Google & Apple don't care about $$$ ? - duh I forgot those guys channel all their profits into searching for a cure for cancer...