SDK opinion - Windows Phone 7 General

how important is the SDK for you in general? If the windows SDk was bad, would you develop application for another mOS?
Do you think the SDK has an impact on the quality of you apps? Does it has an impact on your performance as a developer?

You need the SDK to develop on the phone. How important it is is kind of irrelevant since your motivation on developing on the platform tends to have little to do with the SDK.
Blackberry has one of the worst SDKs but if it became an insanely popular platform we would be developing for it, despite the SDK.

pillsburydoughman said:
You need the SDK to develop on the phone. How important it is is kind of irrelevant since your motivation on developing on the platform tends to have little to do with the SDK.
Blackberry has one of the worst SDKs but if it became an insanely popular platform we would be developing for it, despite the SDK.
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I have to disagree completely, especially if you consider how corporations would act. Many companies have to consider the tradeoff between the profits that are to be made, how it will affect the viewpoint of the Company and the cost of developing an application. If Blackberry has a very bad SDK and therefore the costs of developing an application are a lot higher and the resulting applications will cause negative remarks of the company, because of bad quality, then no Company in their right mind will consider making an application for Blackberry. If on the other Hand a Company says the SDK for Windows phone is very good, and therefore they can cheaply make a good application, it will very quickly cover it's own costs, improve the supported platform and have a positive effect on their public representation.
From a Hobbyist Point of view a good SDK will attract especially beginner developers but will also cause existing developers to spread a good word on the product.
From an end user perspective a good SDK will result in cheaper applications that will on average have a better quality, thus offering a better user experience and all in all a happier user who will recommend that platform to other users, thus increasing the size of the platform, attracting new developers, who further attract more customers, ...

That's all well an good but in reality that's not how it works. Very few companies make their own apps, they come to places like ours to get it done for them.
They don't care about how difficult it is to make, that's what they pay us for. If they want an app we create an app simple as that. We used to make BB software, now android and iphone are all the rage.
To give you an example windows phone 7 has one is the best sdks out there but no one is asking for windows phone apps (or windows 8 for that matter). It's irrelevant, if a company wants an app done they target the one with the biggest base and largest set of customers wanting to pay for said app. Hence iphone. Once the market share for WP grows it will attract more companies.

Yes, but you would for instance charge more for an app written in c++ and win32 for the simple reason that it costs you more time to write it. The more expensive an application is to make the less likely it would be for it to make itself profit. A larger market share is another but not the only factor of Profit. Windows Phone currently has a very small market share, thus often making it uninteresting because redeeming the costs is more difficult. Yet Windows Phone has still managed to attract a huge amount of developers, infact it managed to reach the 50000 app mark in less time than iOs did even though it was basically the last to enter the game thus meaning it had the most competition to deal with and it's user base is/was quite small.

Thanks you both for your replies. I appreciate your comments.
Regards

Related

Malware

After a lot of searching this forum there is a general concensus that Malware (Virus etc) software is not warranted due to low risk and potential to slow the device.
Today there is an article in Australian IT section see here:
theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/hackers-target-smartphones/story-e6frgakx-1225831475552
(Sorry - new user, can't post URL so put in the www yourself !)
In summary, at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona, claims are ebing made that "Smartphones are under a growing menace from cyber-criminals seeking to hack into web-connected handsets, but the mobile industry has contained the threat so far" and "We expect that in mobiles it will take much less time," he said. "This year and next year we expect to see the industrialisation of smartphone malware."
"Kaspersky Lab has detected an average of 30 mobile viruses per month over the past year, and believes that a wave of financial assaults are just around the corner"...It took more than 20 years for computer viruses to become a money-making industry, Kaspersky said.
"We expect that in mobiles it will take much less time," he said. "This year and next year we expect to see the industrialisation of smartphone malware."
I am curious as to whether the general concensus still remains that as long as devices are backed up frequently no further action is required ?
I am not a frequent web user, all emails are through a very well protected schange server, I am a frequent user of Wi-Fi.
Any comments on these claims from Barcelona ?
Isn't that's what's known as marketing ?
Sounds like it to me
Could well be marketing. I am an old fart and remember the when AIDS first appeared, people saying it was all marketing by some companies advocating safe sex !!!!
Marketing or fact ?? That's why I posted, I respect the opinion of this forum !
Honestly unless you are computer/phone illiterate or downloading some pirated software the chances of getting any sort of virus is so slim. I honestly wouldn't worry about it. I'll follow it up with a great story:
My friends uncle bought McAfee sub for a year. Got some bad trojan etc. McAfee could not detect for the life of it. AVG Free picked up half of the files. Safe mode malwarebytes scan cleaned out the rest. So a $80 solution ended up working worse than 2 free programs. Its all a scam.
This is more Swine Flu than AIDS
Invented to sell the cure
burtonsnow8 said:
My friends uncle bought McAfee sub for a year. Got some bad trojan etc. McAfee could not detect for the life of it. AVG Free picked up half of the files. Safe mode malwarebytes scan cleaned out the rest. So a $80 solution ended up working worse than 2 free programs. Its all a scam.
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Click to collapse
Yeah, McAfee is useless crap, I've had more computers running McAfee get infected than any other antivirus.
OP: IMO, at least on Windows Mobile, viruses aren't really a big deal at all. See, the first interesting thing is that Windows Mobile has a very low marketshare in the smartphone world, so like OS X and Linux in the personal computer market, viruses aren't really practical and aren't really made for anything other than concepts. Secondly, one can always hard reset in the worst possible situation of the phone getting infected. So it's not really a big deal at the moment. Maybe in the future, things will be different, but right now it's nothing to lose sleep over.
Agreed, apart from the WM market share thing. Yes WM has a fairly small market share, which is shrinking, but the reason why viruses are written for Windows is because of Microsoft. Microsoft have managed to make lots of enemies with their anti-competitive business strategies and general antisocial behavior.
Viruses aren't written for Linux because virus writers don't want to hurt their own.
OS10 has a small market share but I can't help thinking with the way they're going, locking down and restricting access in a very similar way Microsoft did in the past, they could be the next target. iPhone hackers are already a long way ahead of Apple and are apparently running Linux on it lol
dik23 said:
Agreed, apart from the WM market share thing. Yes WM has a fairly small market share, which is shrinking, but the reason why viruses are written for Windows is because of Microsoft. Microsoft have managed to make lots of enemies with their anti-competitive business strategies and general antisocial behavior.
Viruses aren't written for Linux because virus writers don't want to hurt their own.
OS10 has a small market share but I can't help thinking with the way they're going, locking down and restricting access in a very similar way Microsoft did in the past, they could be the next target. iPhone hackers are already a long way ahead of Apple and are apparently running Linux on it lol
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I have to disagree with you. Certainly many of viruses were written for that reason in the 80's and 90's, but viruses are now just a business for the vast majority of malware writers. It's actually quite a profitable business at that.
Microsoft Windows has an incredible market share, with over a billion machines running Windows. Windows also has plenty of old code and vulnerable security holes, meaning it's a prime target for malware. Windows didn't even have and equivalent for sudo until Windows Vista in 2006, so that shows you how little security has been considered when building the OS. If I wanted to create a massive botnet or harvest millions of users' personal information, I'd pick the OS with the largest marketshare and most poorly implemented security, which happens to be Windows. Plus, while many of the people on this site run Windows and are also technically savvy, most people in the real world aren't. They don't update Windows with patches, they don't run an up to date antivirus, and they don't know the difference between a rogue antivirus like Antivirus 2010 and a legitimate one like Kaspersky. Therefore, it's an easy target.
Now tell me, if you wanted to create a giant botnet to attack government sites, send millions of spam emails, and rent out to malicious individuals, which OS would you choose to target?
Would you choose OS X with 4.5% market share (acc. to Wikipedia), desktop Linux with 1-2% market share (acc. to Wikipedia) or Microsoft Windows with 91% market share (acc. to Wikipedia)? Keep in mind that your code isn't cross platform, meaning that for infected computers to infect other computers, they must be running the same OS (OS X to OS X, Windows to Windows, or Linux to Linux). Don't forget that the *nix and BSD based systems, including OS X, were also designed with security and multiple users in mind, while Windows was originally a single user OS whose sole user ran at the equivalent of root, which means it's a lot more work to write something for Linux/Mac, especially when desktop Linux is still quite fragmented with different competing components with similar functions. Also, you want to make tons of money off this, so your personal feelings towards an OS or its parent company don't really apply very much. Off that list, I bet you chose Windows as the logical choice, right? If you did, then you just had the same train of thought that many malware authors have probably had at some point, and you came to the same logical conclusion.
Maybe a few viruses are still written by people out of hate for Microsoft, but it's just naive to think that hate for Microsoft is the main reason. And the part about malware writers not wanting to hurt "their own" by leaving Linux alone also isn't really viable either, the truth is it's just not practical at this point, and the majority of Linux users are savvy enough to know what they shouldn't click...
Good point !
Having never inflicted myself with Vista I wouldn't know it had a root account. I am amazed that even with a superuser it can still have so many holes. I only use Windows for gaming, as clever as WINE is it really can't do it yet, and XP still wins there

Windows Phone 7 = bad iPhone

Below is just my opinion, and take it as such.
Windows 7 dissapoints me beyond belief. In fact, teverything about it is the "worst case scenario".
<rant>
1. Home page.. I can sum it up in "WTF". The home page that takes up about 80% of the screen (so even big screens look gimped, small and shifted to the side), with a huge area on right and up completely wasted for nothing. Ugly plain-colored squares, with no design consistency (big, small, long, tall) with pieces of information that make no sense.
2. Social networking - as for me, I really don't give a flying turd about my neighbor's ugly kid drawing an image of a bird on the wall with his drool. Nor do I care that much about viewing hundreds of pictures of my friend visiting his grandma. Thanks for covering my home screen with that.
3. Xbox - I don't even have an xbox, nor do I plan to buy one. Neither do most of the business-oriented people who buy a PDA. And even if I did, would I really be so obsessed about my "avatar" or "points" or whatever they use, that I need it on my home page?
4. Emailing - the heart of a PDA. For some people, even more important than the calling itself. By looking at the presentation videos 7's email system is complete trash. It gives you no real "sense" for the inbox, there is no good view to browse your emails properly. Swiping through pages to see "flagged" "unread" on different screens creates a feeling that you're not getting the whole picture, and you're missing stuff. Besides, it has no good integration with contacts that HTC's Sense provides pretty darn well.
5. Interface in general - animation effects blow. They are kind-of OK for today's standards, but when 7 is released, they will already be boring and plain. They are not looking forward, the "flow" of it is already outdated and will be completely destroyed by any new interface that Android or especially Apple will no-doubt deliver in near future. Besides, how awesome it is to see parts of words all the time? "Peop" turns into "ople", so if you slide left-and-right real fast, you can actually see a whole word..... freaking idiotic.
6. Customization... I'm just speechless. This is the only thing that I could raise as WM's, perhaps, only advantage over Android and iPhone. Now they are officially going over to the Apple's way of treating customers like money-packed down-syndrome drooling kids that fall into a seizure when they hear words "cab" or "tweak". After hanging in xda-developers for so long, and writing my own stuff for the PDA, this alone is way more than enough to make me never even look at WM devices again.
7. "Copy and paste" and "multitasking".... I cannot believe that there is even a controversy over WM device having those 2 features... I don't even know what else to say about this. Insane.
Microsoft is obviously a huge Apple fanboy now. They are accepting their market strategies and their development practices and are scared ****less to look ahead and develop something brilliant.
At this point, with current info, WM7 is nothing more than a bad, extremely poorly designed iPhone interface mod. It's already outdated, already looks inefficient, boring and just waiting to be forgotten. Heck, age-old HTC Home plugin looks way better than WM7, and is actually more useful for everyday tasks.
</rant>
Flame away.
Sadly I couldn't agree more... I had been waiting for the mytical complete revamping of the Windows Mobile OS, and when the first real info came out in Spain, I was stoked by what they were presenting (although I couldn't understand the oddly offset homescreen squares)... This week has been nothing but disappointment after disappointment It seems they took all the bad plays out of the iphone playbook (which apple has mostly since corrected) and decided to repeat them. I was hoping for an windows 'iphone' that righted all the wrongs of Apple:
-Controlled Interfaces (both in Syncronizing information with PC and in application installs)
-Real Copy and Paste
-File System
-Use as a USB flash Drive when connected to computer
-Removeable media
Windows Mobile, was ugly and slow, but useful once you knew it. I just feel now that this will be pretty, but no better than a 1G iphone
i dont disagree with any of your points
Yes, I also agree. Microsoft has just threw out everything, that was keeping Windows Mobile different, usable and customizable. I use copy&paste, multitasking and today plugins every day and I can't live without it. I won't use Windows Phone 7, I'd better wait if somebody makes a mobile phone running full desktop Windows (I think it will be someday, now we have HD2 with 1GHz CPU and we are also able to boot Ubuntu on HTC devices).
Microsoft is mitigating all of the flaws of Windows Mobile. You anti-WP7 guys seem to be forgeting that the WM platform was quickly becoming a marketplace failure. Whether you like iPhone or not, there are plenty of things Apple did right (which is why they're kicking a** right now). If you want to call modern smartphone users dumb, then you have to realize that the entire general public is "dumb" and "dumb" people is where the money is. Tech geeks are just not a large enough market to build a platform around. I bet in a few years, Android will become the NEW Windows Mobile (and I mean that in a bad way )
I for one, love the way MS is now focused on user-experience and integration (hubs) as opposed to a bunch of unrelated apps. I was wishing for that long before I knew what a iPhone or WP7 was.
Apple's idea of tying together all of it's products is a winning strategy. MS is the only company that can top Apple at this particular strategy: Zune, XBox, Office, Exchange, FaceBook (MS owns a huge share) and etc.. They have already opened up the platform for development even though the phone isn't even released yet.
MS seems to be really focused on people that actually use their phones to enhance their lives, as opposed to people using their lives to enhance their phones. Good job MS!
WhyBe said:
Microsoft is mitigating all of the flaws of Windows Mobile. You anti-WP7 guys seem to be forgeting that the WM platform was quickly becoming a marketplace failure. Whether you like iPhone or not, there are plenty of things Apple did right (which is why they're kicking a** right now). If you want to call modern smartphone users dumb, then you have to realize that the entire general public is "dumb" and "dumb" people is where the money is. Tech geeks are just not a large enough market to build a platform around.
I for one, love the way MS is now focused on user-experience and integration (hubs) as opposed to a bunch of unrelated apps. I was wishing for that long before I knew what a iPhone or WP7 was.
Apple's idea of tying together all of it's products is a winning strategy. MS is the only company that can top Apple at this particular strategy: Zune, XBox, Office, Exchange, FaceBook (MS owns a huge share) and etc.. They have already opened up the platform for development even though the phone isn't even released yet.
MS seems to be really focused on people that actually use their phones to enhance their lives, as opposed to people using their lives to enhance their phones. Good job MS!
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Whether MS is taking the most profitable approach or not, is a different topic. I do agree that majority of users are "dumb" and freak out at anything that takes more than 5 clicks to do. However, I HIGHLY doubt they can catch on to Apple and give simple users a better experience than iPhone already gives. If we consider the release timeframe, and high possibility of iPhone 2, MS has picked a wrong battle and will fail miserably while we all laugh our asses off at the fugly interface that WM7 has.
However, I'm speaking from my own perspective, and what *I* want and need in a phone. Fortunately for me, WM, even having worst interface ever (thankfully fixed by HTC), still catered to all my tweaking/developing needs. I'd even say to the needs of the majority of people at xda - this is a developer forum after all, not an Apple fan-club.
And from that I can assume that the approach that MS is taking will make "advanced" users like me and people here at xda to feel like MS has failed them and abandoned them, turning to "dumb users". And that never feels good.
DarkDvr said:
Whether MS is taking the most profitable approach or not, is a different topic. I do agree that majority of users are "dumb" and freak out at anything that takes more than 5 clicks to do. However, I HIGHLY doubt they can catch on to Apple and give simple users a better experience than iPhone already gives. If we consider the release timeframe, and high possibility of iPhone 2, MS has picked a wrong battle and will fail miserably while we all laugh our asses off at the fugly interface that WM7 has.
However, I'm speaking from my own perspective, and what *I* want and need in a phone. Fortunately for me, WM, even having worst interface ever (thankfully fixed by HTC), still catered to all my tweaking/developing needs. I'd even say to the needs of the majority of people at xda - this is a developer forum after all, not an Apple fan-club.
And from that I can assume that the approach that MS is taking will make "advanced" users like me and people here at xda to feel like MS has failed them and abandoned them, turning to "dumb users". And that never feels good.
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I actually love the new WP7 interface...giant words, big active tiles and all. I had Sense in my TP2 for about a month and finally decided that while it was pretty looking, it was not efficient at all. To much pressing and swiping to get to where I needed to go. Back to Titanium for me.
I think in due time, there will be a hacking community around WP7 just like this one...maybe even THIS one
Advanced users can fend for themselves. Isn't this how XDA grew? I'm sure it'll happen again with WP7.
iPhone 2 ? Naw, I think Apple has shot it's load and is just going to work on building and maintaining the market it has. I don't expect anything revolutionary out of Apple for a while (at least as far as smartphones go). I don't think they'll do what MS did and ditch the old iPhone for a new iPhone platform. MS was sort of forced to ditch WM if they wanted to compete.
WhyBe said:
I actually love the new WP7 interface...giant words, big active tiles and all. I had Sense in my TP2 for about a month and finally decided that while it was pretty looking, it was not efficient at all. To much pressing and swiping to get to where I needed to go. Back to Titanium for me.
I think in due time, there will be a hacking community around WP7 just like this one...maybe even THIS one
Advanced users can fend for themselves. Isn't this how XDA grew? I'm sure it'll happen again with WP7.
iPhone 2 ? Naw, I think Apple has shot it's load and is just going to work on building and maintaining the market it has. I don't expect anything revolutionary out of Apple for a while (at least as far as smartphones go). I don't think they'll do what MS did and ditch the old iPhone for a new iPhone platform. MS was sort of forced to ditch WM if they wanted to compete.
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Well, in BEST case scenario (for MS), that's what will happen. However, for me, that's wishful thinking.
Will there be WM7 hacks? Yeah, of course. Question is, how easy/available/useful they will be. WM6 platform, even with all its deficiencies, is a nice and easy platform to tweak/expand. So far, WM7 looks to be complete opposite of that (just look at their idea of branding and marketplace), and few hacks that will be released won't make up for anything. Especially when 90% of all developers will switch to a more friendly platform (perhaps even Android).
DarkDvr said:
Especially when 90% of all developers will switch to a more friendly platform (perhaps even Android).
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I, personally would want to develop for a platform where I can turn a profit. Is Android at that stage yet (I'm asking, I don't know). If Android is so open and customizable the way WM was/is, then inevitably it's going to suffer the same fate as WM.
It seems that MS is making WP7 very developer friendly. What's wrong with developing for WP7 ?
WhyBe said:
I, personally would want to develop for a platform where I can turn a profit. Is Android at that stage yet (I'm asking, I don't know). If Android is so open and customizable the way WM was/is, then inevitably it's going to suffer the same fate as WM.
It seems that MS is making WP7 very developer friendly. What's wrong with developing for WP7 ?
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Android isn't going anywhere. It may not be as explosive as iPhone, but it's here to stay, if google does it right. And google pretty much always does everything right.
Problem with programming for WM7, and I'm going on a limited info that's curretly available, is that MS is putting down a "draconic" ((c) engadget) restrictions on anything that comes onto WM7 devices. Everything has to be within standards and everything has to go through the marketplace. In fact, reviewers are saying that methods that MS is implementing on WM7 infrastructure are much more strict that even Apple's. That spells "BAD NEWS" for me in big, bold letters.
DarkDvr said:
Android isn't going anywhere. It may not be as explosive as iPhone, but it's here to stay, if google does it right. And google pretty much always does everything right.
Problem with programming for WM7, and I'm going on a limited info that's curretly available, is that MS is putting down a "draconic" ((c) engadget) restrictions on anything that comes onto WM7 devices. Everything has to be within standards and everything has to go through the marketplace. In fact, reviewers are saying that methods that MS is implementing on WM7 infrastructure are much more strict that even Apple's. That spells "BAD NEWS" for me in big, bold letters.
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This is the only way to ensure that the "dumb" consumers get a great experience. The average consumer doesn't want to tweak and figure out things. They want to quickly download intuitive apps that just work. Perhaps MS will be able to minimize "garbage apps" (though there are bound to be some). Look at the success of the App store. I think part of it's success is that their app store wasn't so fragmented like the WM market is. One place to download and purchase all apps for the platform (straight to the phone at that!) is a lot easier than endlessly Googling to find what you need on some random site. Again, this is catering to the "dumb" people and not the geeks.
WhyBe said:
This is the only way to ensure that the "dumb" consumers get a great experience. The average consumer doesn't want to tweak and figure out things. They want to quickly download intuitive apps that just work. Perhaps MS will be able to minimize "garbage apps" (though there are bound to be some). Look at the success of the App store. I think part of it's success is that their app store wasn't so fragmented like the WM market is. One place to download and purchase all apps for the platform (straight to the phone at that!) is a lot easier than Googling for an hour to find what you need on some random site. Again, this is catering to the "dumb" people and not the geeks.
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Yep, I won't argue that simplicity of use is paramount. However, I do see a trend of separation between regular users and developers.
And, although I do agree that developers seeking profit will develop on the most used platform, there is a also a huge factor of developers not wanting to use a device that limits their desire for customization.
I guess the question is which of those factors will overpower another. And will we have to buy 2 devices - one for "work", one for the "soul"
DarkDvr said:
Yep, I won't argue that simplicity of use is paramount. However, I do see a trend of separation between regular users and developers.
And, although I do agree that developers seeking profit will develop on the most used platform, there is a also a huge factor of developers not wanting to use a device that limits their desire for customization.
I guess the question is which of those factors will overpower another. And will we have to buy 2 devices - one for "work", one for the "soul"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the industry is headed towards the user-friendly way of doing things. Hackers will fend for themselves (as always). Smartphones are only going to get more popular to the point where they are as common as the regular cell phone. A typical WM device could never support that kind of market. Only devices like WP7, iPhone, Pre and etc. will be appealing to this huge market of non-geeks.
WhyBe said:
I think the industry is headed towards the user-friendly way of doing things. Hackers will fend for themselves (as always). Smartphones are only going to get more popular to the point where they are as common as the regular cell phone. A typical WM device could never support that kind of market. Only devices like WP7, iPhone, Pre and etc. will be appealing to this huge market of non-geeks.
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And that's excellent. However, that doesn't mean that the device should be "locked" and limited to modification. The idea behind the android is probably the most appealing to me - it's a very user-friendly interface that is completely open to any modification, including the end-user modification like moving stuff around, throwing widgets on the screen, etc.
In my mind, my perfect WM7 would be:
1. Build on a new platform, now the WinCE crap that gave us WM6.
2. Be very open to modification and adjustment, hopefully even moreso than WM6.
3. Not be locked in any way, allowing advanced users to tinker with devices.
4. For end users, come with an excellent user interface straight from the box. Openness to tinkering and ease of use are NOT mutually exclusive, they go hand-in-hand very well.
5. Platform absolutely must support all options available - meaning things like SDcard support, copy/paste, DEFINITELY multitasking (WTF, back to stone ages??), etc. Even though first phones might not have it all, there should be an existing support for it, so that companies/developers can take advantage of them.
I guess my ranting is due to the fact that Microsoft saw "gold" in Apple's ideas and went overboard with that. Along the way they completely ignored to include the potential into the device. Think of the military - you create, say, a tank - even if it's super-awesome today, if there is no room for potential improvements - it's a pile of useless metal in several years.
DarkDvr said:
And that's excellent. However, that doesn't mean that the device should be "locked" and limited to modification. The idea behind the android is probably the most appealing to me - it's a very user-friendly interface that is completely open to any modification, including the end-user modification like moving stuff around, throwing widgets on the screen, etc.
In my mind, my perfect WM7 would be:
1. Build on a new platform, now the WinCE crap that gave us WM6.
2. Be very open to modification and adjustment, hopefully even moreso than WM6.
3. Not be locked in any way, allowing advanced users to tinker with devices.
4. For end users, come with an excellent user interface straight from the box. Openness to tinkering and ease of use are NOT mutually exclusive, they go hand-in-hand very well.
5. Platform absolutely must support all options available - meaning things like SDcard support, copy/paste, DEFINITELY multitasking (WTF, back to stone ages??), etc. Even though first phones might not have it all, there should be an existing support for it, so that companies/developers can take advantage of them.
I guess my ranting is due to the fact that Microsoft saw "gold" in Apple's ideas and went overboard with that. Along the way they completely ignored to include the potential into the device. Think of the military - you create, say, a tank - even if it's super-awesome today, if there is no room for potential improvements - it's a pile of useless metal in several years.
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Click to collapse
Well, we don't know what's truly under the hood of WP7 yet. We know it has multitasking, it is just highly restricted. Copy and paste can be implemented within the app (MS'es alternative to C&P seem pretty slick though). I don't see WP7 as a blatant copy of Apple, MS just acknowledged some winning points of the iPhone platform and followed suit and improved upon it (that's smart business actually). I think MS concept of the OS is far more advanced than what iPhone delivers. I think the Pre and WP7 are the first of the "new style" of OS'es. Android sort of reminds me of WM.
Again, I think all of the customization and openness hinders the platform because you end up with so many incompatibilities and inconsistencies in the user experience. Even HTC Sense "broke" alot of the things I was used to in the standard WM interface (MS Voice Command and PhonEx just didn't work properly or consistently, for example). God only knows what would "break" if I installed some other WM shell.
I love the premise in WP7 that apps are supposed to work together. I don't know how this is going to play out in the real world, but if this is facilitated at the OS level, I don't see why it shouldn't be a great feature.
Some of the so-called Apple limitations are actually advantages for them (single form factor, only one App store highly regulated, lo-res graphics for speed, locked-in iPod/iTunes audience, no multitasking to possibly damage the user-experience).
If an experience on a platform is going to be consistent and pleasurable, it has to be highly controlled. You can't have a free-for-all and expect everything to just work together nicely. WM and Android are perfect examples of free-for-all, let's see how they do in the current market.
Locked down OS?
Time for the next generation of hackers.
Get out the sharpening stone and hone your edge.
A system is meant to be broken, not remain intact.
Go XDA
Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I don't share yours though:
WhyBe said:
I think the Pre and WP7 are the first of the "new style" of OS'es.
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I don't see anything that's "new style" about it. Cut words, ugly squares, "pushable" buttons look identical to the labels, which creates confusion.. etc etc.
WhyBe said:
Again, I think all of the customization and openness hinders the platform because you end up with so many incompatibilities and inconsistencies in the user experience. ...
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Click to collapse
So it's better not to have any at all? It's like saying "oh, we should have just 3 models of cars on the market, so that everything's consistent and buyers won't be confused". Openness and customization only help any platform greatly, it doesn't create incompatibilities and inconsistencies. Bad programmers do.
WhyBe said:
I love the premise in WP7 that apps are supposed to work together. I don't know how this is going to play out in the real world, but if this is facilitated at the OS level, I don't see why it shouldn't be a great feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're missing a word.. "I love the premise in WP7, that MICROSOFT'S apps are supposed to work together." We all know how bad their software can be, and now u won't even have a chance to fix it. Sit around for years, hoping that new version will fix the bugs and not introduce a mirriad of others.
WhyBe said:
Some of the so-called Apple limitations are actually advantages for them (single form factor, only one App store highly regulated, lo-res graphics for speed, locked-in iPod/iTunes audience, no multitasking to possibly damage the user-experience).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude you're so anti-choice. I have a very different view. Choice is what creates competition and improvement. It's what drives the progress. Single form-factors, locked software, penalties for tinkering (jailbreak) - it all hinders the progress, it cannot possibly be better.
WhyBe said:
If an experience on a platform is going to be consistent and pleasurable, it has to be highly controlled. You can't have a free-for-all and expect everything to just work together nicely. WM and Android are perfect examples of free-for-all, let's see how they do in the current market.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Openness of current WM platform is about the only plus it has, not its drawback. I think that's pretty much established.
Besides, as I've said before, you don't have to pick between a smooth experience and openness for customization. WM7 could have an excellent setup right from the box, if you like what they've made, even maybe the one they have now. Nobody says that at the same time it cannot have support for developer's imagination. Nobody besides MS's analytics who decided that copying Apple will bring them a big buck. Honestly, no, it won't.
chiks19018 said:
Locked down OS?
Time for the next generation of hackers.
Get out the sharpening stone and hone your edge.
A system is meant to be broken, not remain intact.
Go XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
>.< That's not the point.
DarkDvr said:
So it's better not to have any at all? It's like saying "oh, we should have just 3 models of cars on the market, so that everything's consistent and buyers won't be confused". Openness and customization only help any platform greatly, it doesn't create incompatibilities and inconsistencies. Bad programmers do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All consumer cars have the exact same interface. Steering, acceleration and brakes...
You're missing a word.. "I love the premise in WP7, that MICROSOFT'S apps are supposed to work together." We all know how bad their software can be, and now u won't even have a chance to fix it. Sit around for years, hoping that new version will fix the bugs and not introduce a mirriad of others.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't had experience with BAD MS software. It's always worked for me. Now the third-party stuff...that's a different story. If things like social networking and cloud computing are implemented on the OS level (instead in the app), it will be easier for third party apps to work in conjunction. Bing on the OS level will be a lot better than a Bing app. Same for Voice Command (if MS uses it).
Dude you're so anti-choice. I have a very different view. Choice is what creates competition and improvement. It's what drives the progress. Single form-factors, locked software, penalties for tinkering (jailbreak) - it all hinders the progress, it cannot possibly be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This philosophy is failing WM and Android.
WhyBe said:
I haven't had experience with BAD MS software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then you've never used Windows ME or anything before Windows 98.
Let's just agree to disagree =)

Know your Audience: consumer vs corporate vs wp7s

Give me a break...
Charlie Kindel
http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsphone/archive/2010/03/18/know-your-audience.aspx
Wow, MIX10 rocked. I’ve lost my voice which made it pretty hard to do a podcast interview this morning; I’m glad I had the morse code app someone coded up at MIX for Windows Phone 7 Series using the tools we made available there!
If you didn’t get a chance to see the day 1 keynote for the conference you missed an amazing presentation of not only the Windows Phone 7 Series user experience & developer experience but a bunch of amazing 3rd party app demos as well. You can watching it online here.
I had a great time talking with developers and designers about the new development platform at MIX. You’d be amazed how much planning went into delivering these keynotes, demos and sessions. I’ve been doing these shows for years, and the first thing I was taught was to know your audience. For me MIX has been all about exciting developers and designers, but I appreciate that there are people watching online or reading press articles who see things through a different lens. With that in mind, I’d like to clarify a few things.
I’ve talked at length on my developer focused blog and in other forums about our commitment to designing a platform that prioritizes end user experience. Creating and then preserving an incredible customer experience is priority one for Windows Phone 7 Series. We make this point in every session. To illustrate the point we often remind developers that the vast majority of phones are purchased at retail, which means the “end user” we are focusing on is often referred to as a “consumer”. This is not to say that phones or Windows Phone 7 Series in particular are less valuable to business or corporate scenarios; it’s simply a comment on purchase behavior.
We are building a phone focused on the end-user. We are building a phone that will be, primarily, purchased by end-users. We know those end-users have busy personal & business lives. We are building a phone that will be GREAT for helping end-users deal with BOTH their personal & business lives.
Windows Phone 7 Series will be a great business phone. We applied the same end user focus to designing the phone’s business capabilities that we did with every other element of the phone. We asked people and even IT administrators what they need from a phone. The answer was consistent. They want a single device that excels at core business functions like email, reading and editing Office documents and collaboration, while also offering rich features and capabilities that help people stay on top of the different parts of their lives, at home and at work.
We expect Windows Phone 7 Series to appeal to people who are active, connected and working, so Exchange & SharePoint integration and the features within the new Office hub are core to the phone’s value. Similarly, we know that people add these phones to corporate networks and that we need to make that process easy for administrators. Interestingly, when we talk to corporate IT staff and business decision makers they ask us to give them a compelling phone that will not only improve productivity, but also appeal to the end user’s “whole life,” as people wish to carry only one Smartphone to meet both business and personal needs. We think Windows Phone 7 Series will do this better than any other phone on the market today. WHICH BUSINESSES ARE YOU TALKING TO!?!?!?!?!?!
For us, it’s not a matter of “consumer” OR “corporate.” We view our target customer as the kind of person who is looking to technology as a helper in their lives, and we find this kind of person in small businesses, all the way to the largest corporations. Whichever end of the spectrum they are in, we are building a phone that works for them, in their environment.
So when we tell developers and designers that we’ve built a platform for consumers / end users / people, we simply mean that experience is the high order bit – not quantity of features, range of form factors or anything else.
How we tell our story may vary by audience or event, but our singular focus on creating and preserving a great experience for the people who carry a Windows Phone is consistent.
Cheers,
Charlie Kindel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is dumb. I'm sorry, but perhaps you should have talked with some real businesses instead of the fa*gy ones in Silicon Valley. My boss isn't okay with my going on Facebook during work hours. My company also doesn't want my personal phone accessing my company's exchange server. Perhaps Microsoft should have talked with some REAL businesses rather than progressive ones run by overgrown teens.
Like those "typical" households they used to test Vista...facepalm.
rorytmeadows said:
This is dumb. I'm sorry, but perhaps you should have talked with some real businesses instead of the fa*gy ones in Silicon Valley. My boss isn't okay with my going on Facebook during work hours. My company also doesn't want my personal phone accessing my company's exchange server. Perhaps Microsoft should have talked with some REAL businesses rather than progressive ones run by overgrown teens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't mean to sound like I'm defending Microsoft's actions with WP7S -- I definitely am not, and am outspoken about my views regarding WP7s -- but the article said they talked with IT staff and management.
I work in IT, and there's a big difference between us and the management. People at the business use company PCs on the company network to go on Facebook and a variety of other personal sites. People use their company-issued BBs to do personal things.
As IT staff members, we don't care. It's business management that cares. My boss -- manager in charge of technical services -- just shrugs off the Facebook network traffic -- it's not his problem, he just keeps the network running.
Modern IT staffs -- in general -- are very liberal. It's the business management that cracks down on stuff like that.
Also, while management may be deep-rooted in a control, all work no fun philosophy, whether they like it or not, they're waking up to the fact that this generation of worker likes to be liberated. It's being pushed to them by speakers and writers and pundits everywhere.
I work in IT management in a large government department and that's the trend that we are working towards, we understand there is very little we can do to STOP people trying to use these types of services but if we can have appropriate policies and guidelines in place we at least have some control.
Work-Life balance is a big thing that some employers are trying to push, so there is definately merit to the idea.
Micro$oft = Apple in disguise. They are following Apple to get the BIG BUCKS now.
hidden_hunter said:
I work in IT management in a large government department and that's the trend that we are working towards, we understand there is very little we can do to STOP people trying to use these types of services but if we can have appropriate policies and guidelines in place we at least have some control.
Work-Life balance is a big thing that some employers are trying to push, so there is definately merit to the idea.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm this is interesting. I'm not sure why it's becoming acceptable to check your Facebook messages while at work. Or at least why would people be laying back and giving up some bandwith for it. I'm having a hard time why *.facebook.com isn't already added to firewalls.
rorytmeadows said:
Hmm this is interesting. I'm not sure why it's becoming acceptable to check your Facebook messages while at work. Or at least why would people be laying back and giving up some bandwith for it. I'm having a hard time why *.facebook.com isn't already added to firewalls.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Employers are realizing that the liberated worker is actually happier and therefore more productive.
The big boss in my IT department is very hands off in this way, he walks by people standing around talking about not-work, looking up webpages that aren't work, et cetera, and doesn't even care.
He hires only skilled workers, gives them basically unlimited freedom, and as long as the jobs get done, he doesn't care.
It pays off too, everyone there is fiercely dedicated to him and their work, and we have exceptional quality and exceptional turn around, because instead of constantly fearing crossing the line, we want to work because we want him to be happy, because he's so good to us that upsetting him would be devastating.
Spike15 said:
Employers are realizing that the liberated worker is actually happier and therefore more productive.
The big boss in my IT department is very hands off in this way, he walks by people standing around talking about not-work, looking up webpages that aren't work, et cetera, and doesn't even care.
He hires only skilled workers, gives them basically unlimited freedom, and as long as the jobs get done, he doesn't care.
It pays off too, everyone there is fiercely dedicated to him and their work, and we have exceptional quality and exceptional turn around, because instead of constantly fearing crossing the line, we want to work because we want him to be happy, because he's so good to us that upsetting him would be devastating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well that sounds promising for many, but honestly, I'd rather stay as far away from that Japanese-culture crap and hippie California sh*t as possible.
And then the other question becomes, what if the work ISN'T getting done. I mean this is America, so, most likely it isn't.
rorytmeadows said:
Hmm this is interesting. I'm not sure why it's becoming acceptable to check your Facebook messages while at work. Or at least why would people be laying back and giving up some bandwith for it. I'm having a hard time why *.facebook.com isn't already added to firewalls.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because we find that facebook is no less damaging than people standing around talking about football for 30 minutes
Spike15 said:
Employers are realizing that the liberated worker is actually happier and therefore more productive.
The big boss in my IT department is very hands off in this way, he walks by people standing around talking about not-work, looking up webpages that aren't work, et cetera, and doesn't even care.
He hires only skilled workers, gives them basically unlimited freedom, and as long as the jobs get done, he doesn't care.
It pays off too, everyone there is fiercely dedicated to him and their work, and we have exceptional quality and exceptional turn around, because instead of constantly fearing crossing the line, we want to work because we want him to be happy, because he's so good to us that upsetting him would be devastating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep pretty much, if the work's being done you could sit on facebook all day as far as my boss is concerned
hidden_hunter said:
Because we find that facebook is no less damaging than people standing around talking about football for 30 minutes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As someone that was fired from a job because of LiveJournal content, I don't think I can agree with that statement.
rorytmeadows said:
Well that sounds promising for many, but honestly, I'd rather stay as far away from that Japanese-culture crap and hippie California sh*t as possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a person who is totally anti-hippie, I can say that it's not "hippie California sh*t [sic]", it's just appealing to human nature.
People who are satisfied with their situation will work harder than people who aren't, and they'll do better work.
It's even gone so far that my immediate superior actually doesn't tell anyone what to do anymore. He just asks you to do it, and because he's such an easygoing dude that's a joy to work for, you do it because the prospect of upsetting him after how good he's been to you is distressing.
It's about people wanting to go to work, wanting to get the work done, and that leading to better output that people who drag themselves to work just for the paycheque.
Sometimes I forget that I'm being paid.
Sometimes I forget to go home on time.
Sometimes I work at home on my free time.
rorytmeadows said:
And then the other question becomes, what if the work ISN'T getting done. I mean this is America, so, most likely it isn't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then you can that worker and find someone who will do the work?
You make it seem as though just because you treat your employees with kindness and respect you can't fire them if they don't perform.
Also: Who's to say "this" is America? I take exception to that -- I wouldn't live in such a terrible country.
In my country our banks have money.
Spike15 said:
As a person who is totally anti-hippie, I can say that it's not "hippie California sh*t [sic]", it's just appealing to human nature.
People who are satisfied with their situation will work harder than people who aren't, and they'll do better work.
It's even gone so far that my immediate superior actually doesn't tell anyone what to do anymore. He just asks you to do it, and because he's such an easygoing dude that's a joy to work for, you do it because the prospect of upsetting him after how good he's been to you is distressing.
It's about people wanting to go to work, wanting to get the work done, and that leading to better output that people who drag themselves to work just for the paycheque.
Sometimes I forget that I'm being paid.
Sometimes I forget to go home on time.
Sometimes I work at home on my free time.
Then you can that worker and find someone who will do the work?
You make it seem as though just because you treat your employees with kindness and respect you can't fire them if they don't perform.
Also: Who's to say "this" is America? I take exception to that -- I wouldn't live in such a terrible country.
In my country our banks have money.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I understand where you're coming from and I can definitely see that productivity would work with that kind of management there. But in a lot of companies, like mine, your workforce isn't bright enough to respond in that manner. I am a therapist at a day program that employs high school graduates (some of which who knows how they made it through high school) and thus, it's a battle to get the work done. They can be gotten rid of, but then replaced by a workforce of the same caliber. Such is my field. Then because of that dominate culture, the "laziness" rubs off on the educated some that also share the space. I don't want any of them on their Facebook accounts at work.
Most of the companies in this country are full of a workforce that can't spell the word workforce. You're entrusting them to these same philosophies of management? You don't have very good odds doing so.
And if you think that this workforce isn't the target audience, that's incorrect. It's the ineducated that rush out to buy Apple products because of the flashiness and lack of functionality. They may not have the money, but hey, there's always public assistance so they can live in a ****ty house, have 3 kids while making $25k a year, and still go out and buy an expensive phone and TV as long as there is a credit card that can be used.
rorytmeadows said:
And if you think that this workforce isn't the target audience, that's incorrect. It's the ineducated that rush out to buy Apple products because of the flashiness and lack of functionality. They may not have the money, but hey, there's always public assistance so they can live in a ****ty house, have 3 kids while making $25k a year, and still go out and buy an expensive phone and TV as long as there is a credit card that can be used.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't understand why the fact that the average consumer is the target totally precludes enthusiast features.
THIS IS MICROSOFT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!
JUST LOOK AT WINDOWS!
I boot up my Windows 7 machine, I see a very clean, very easy-to-use interface.
My 51-year-old mother, who is probably the most computer illiterate person I have ever met, can use Windows 7, she can use Internet Explorer 8, she can use Microsoft Outlook 2007, and does so on a regular basis, without my help.
By the logic of the WP7S designers, it is impossible that this operating system, that these programs, be useable by people like me -- I am an IT professional. I spend my days at work writing scripts, building and maintaining servers and networks et cetera.
But it's not impossible! Microsoft was the company that showed us this by bringing a "complicated" system to 92% of the computer market!
Let's take that clean, easy-to-use interface I get when I boot my computer.
But now I want more power. I can easy hit WIN+R and type "powershell" and hit ENTER to get a terminal window I can use to do basically anything. I can easy go Start ==> Control Panel to get at the guts of the operating system. There are a million ways -- from right-clicking to hitting keyboard shortcuts -- to get to advanced features, that are hidden in plain sight from the average consumer.
Microsoft wanted Windows 7 and Vista to be easier to use, less confusing, more user-friendly, et cetera. Did they take out the things that made the operating system good for enthusiasts and specialists? Things like Active Directory, MMC, Command Prompt, Control Panel, Administrative Tools, et cetera?
No, in fact, the most powerful administrative tool to come out of Redmond since MMC -- PowerShell -- was added as a default in Windows 7!
I literally cannot believe this is the same company that brought us the likes of Windows. They're the company that took DOS and built Windows, with all the functionality except now useable by a broader audience, and throughout their history they've continued to do that, adding more advanced features to every product while simultaneously making it easier to use, and not just for the average user! Their software targeted at experts becomes easier and easier to use too!
Windows Phone 7 Series is a failure, and betrays everything I respected and thought I knew about my favourite company.
Spike15 said:
I don't understand why the fact that the average consumer is the target totally precludes enthusiast features.
THIS IS MICROSOFT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!
JUST LOOK AT WINDOWS!
I boot up my Windows 7 machine, I see a very clean, very easy-to-use interface.
My 51-year-old mother, who is probably the most computer illiterate person I have ever met, can use Windows 7, she can use Internet Explorer 8, she can use Microsoft Outlook 2007, and does so on a regular basis, without my help.
By the logic of the WP7S designers, it is impossible that this operating system, that these programs, be useable by people like me -- I am an IT professional. I spend my days at work writing scripts, building and maintaining servers and networks et cetera.
But it's not impossible! Microsoft was the company that showed us this by bringing a "complicated" system to 92% of the computer market!
Let's take that clean, easy-to-use interface I get when I boot my computer.
But now I want more power. I can easy hit WIN+R and type "powershell" and hit ENTER to get a terminal window I can use to do basically anything. I can easy go Start ==> Control Panel to get at the guts of the operating system. There are a million ways -- from right-clicking to hitting keyboard shortcuts -- to get to advanced features, that are hidden in plain sight from the average consumer.
Microsoft wanted Windows 7 and Vista to be easier to use, less confusing, more user-friendly, et cetera. Did they take out the things that made the operating system good for enthusiasts and specialists? Things like Active Directory, MMC, Command Prompt, Control Panel, Administrative Tools, et cetera?
No, in fact, the most powerful administrative tool to come out of Redmond since MMC -- PowerShell -- was added as a default in Windows 7!
I literally cannot believe this is the same company that brought us the likes of Windows. They're the company that took DOS and built Windows, with all the functionality except now useable by a broader audience, and throughout their history they've continued to do that, adding more advanced features to every product while simultaneously making it easier to use, and not just for the average user! Their software targeted at experts becomes easier and easier to use too!
Windows Phone 7 Series is a failure, and betrays everything I respected and thought I knew about my favourite company.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree completely. You cannot get the poweruser features that IT specs and nerdy hobbiests like me without buying some application, or at least hacking the phone. You don't have to hack Windows 7 to browse the files or edit the registry. It's part of the OS, as expected.
Spike15:
Well said! I agree 100%.
Agreed,
But too bad .. Microsoft does not see it like that.
This WP7S, according them, it is a brand new line of product.
We should not relate it with Windows desktop OS anymore.
Why?
Because Microsoft clearly stated ... "Phone is not a PC".
No matter what, they will stick to that.
Only time will tell, whether WP7S is a failure or not.
When iPhone was first announced, we all complained it is too restricted (still now). But it is now gaining market rapidly and successful.
Oh yes, WP7S is not for power user like us. Because it is different, because it is NOT targeted to use, power user.
They target all those Facebook addicts, all those Xbox players, all those music souls.
But not techies, nor power users, thinkers, tweakers like us.
That's the thing that I regret about WP7S.
I hope the next iteration (WP7.1 or 7.5 or 8.0) will change the situation.
Until then, Android is the answer
Spike15 said:
I literally cannot believe this is the same company that brought us the likes of Windows. They're the company that took DOS and built Windows, with all the functionality except now useable by a broader audience, and throughout their history they've continued to do that, adding more advanced features to every product while simultaneously making it easier to use, and not just for the average user! Their software targeted at experts becomes easier and easier to use too!
Windows Phone 7 Series is a failure, and betrays everything I respected and thought I knew about my favourite company.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
gogol said:
Agreed,
But too bad .. Microsoft does not see it like that.
This WP7S, according them, it is a brand new line of product.
We should not relate it with Windows desktop OS anymore.
Why?
Because Microsoft clearly stated ... "Phone is not a PC".
No matter what, they will stick to that.
Only time will tell, whether WP7S is a failure or not.
When iPhone was first announced, we all complained it is too restricted (still now). But it is now gaining market rapidly and successful.
Oh yes, WP7S is not for power user like us. Because it is different, because it is NOT targeted to use, power user.
They target all those Facebook addicts, all those Xbox players, all those music souls.
But not techies, nor power users, thinkers, tweakers like us.
That's the thing that I regret about WP7S.
I hope the next iteration (WP7.1 or 7.5 or 8.0) will change the situation.
Until then, Android is the answer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I guess a slate phone is the answer.
Why not a jailbroken iPhone?
eaglesteve said:
Why not a jailbroken iPhone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because, even jailbroken, it still doesn't have SD card, removable battery, customization is poor, no hardware keyboard, not enough serious apps (lots of iFart, iBoobs i****...) etc.
gogol said:
When iPhone was first announced, we all complained it is too restricted (still now). But it is now gaining market rapidly and successful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Last chart I saw suggested that apple market share has been stuck at 25% for the last 3 months. I'm hoping that's not a one time occurrence, and is rather part of a trend. RIM is at 50%+ and increased a 1-2% during the same time (was expected to fall). Android moved up 5%, WinMo down 3-4%, Palm down 1-2%.
I'm hoping this is a trend so we get away from this idea that a phone does not need advanced features, and that people realize that devices that force vendor lockin is not a good idea.
I like marketplaces, but I don't like artificial enforcement of the marketplace. It's my device, I want to use it as I please. Generally, Freedom = good, artificial restriction = bad.
You can put a nice user-friendly candy-coated UI on something without ripping out the advanced features.
As for wp7, I am liking it better than the iphone experience, I don't think MS will prove to be as restrictive as Apple, so I hope it does well. However, I'm still undecided about what my next OS will be.
But I hope the market starts to swing more open and tech oriented with intuitive UIs on top of powerful open devices. And I hope this makes Microsoft open up their policies a bit as a result.

Viable development platform

Hey guys, question for those of you who already have apps created..
So far in the app store almost every app listed there is a "text based app that list of something". All the apps are like castrated silverlight applications, rather than an application designed for the phone. (seriously who needs to pay money for an xkcd app when you can just use the browser to visit xkcd.com).
To you app developers out there is this a viable development platform.. or should I be getting myself an android or iphone instead? I mean no sockets api.. come on.
I waited a year replace my BB with windows phone 7 and now that I have it in my hands.. not quite so sure it's going to be replaced. It's a really nice phone but the API is so restrictive
As a developer, the WP7 platform is very viable to me. I'm currently working on a game and will hopefully be submitting it for certification next week. I haven't used the Silverlight stuff yet, but the XNA part of the platform is an absolute joy to use. I'm a very long-time Android user and have owned a Nexus One since it launched. Even though I'm absolutely in love with my Nexus One, I will be jumping ship to WP7 solely because of how awesome the developer tools are.
I believe the Marketplace will start getting a bit more lively over the coming weeks. Developing good apps takes time. So, all the crappy ones will get posted first. I'm not saying all the current apps on the Marketplace are crappy, just that because the platform is so new, people are still working on their good apps. As far as I can tell, the platform has definitely attracted a lot of developer interest.
I program because I enjoy doing it; it's fun to me. However, not all programming is fun. For example, programming in Java (including Android development) is just not fun to me. I'm not saying that Java is bad language or that Dalvik is a bad runtime. I just don't enjoy developing for it. WP7, on the other hand, is great fun. I just really enjoy programming for it. Even if I was the only WP7 user in the world, I would probably still mess around with the platform just because I enjoy it and it's just a pleasant experience all around. Now, I know being a fun environment to program in doesn't automatically make the platform profitable for developers to focus on. I'm hoping, though, that the ease of development will attract a large number of developers and that will, in-turn, attract users. We'll see.
The API is pretty restrictive; I'll admit that. It is something you will have to consider when choosing a phone. If you want to write an SMS backup app or a ringtone changer, WP7 is not for you. WP7 has a lot of limitations at the moment and is missing some features I would love to have (socket support in the API being a big one.) However, I still see the platform as a whole as a step in the right direction. I hope it's successful enough that Microsoft continues to focus on it for a long time so we can see where it goes.
With Blackberry and Nokia trying to keep their customers from jumping ship, Android 3, WP7, and whatever Apple does with iPhone, 2011 is looking to be a very interesting year for smartphones. I'm definitely excited to see what happens with all of the platforms.
Note: sockets are supposed to be coming. I don't know if they're coming in the next update, but I have read that they will be added. Hopefully very soon.
I have to agree with what you just said...
I've been slowly learning how to use VS2008 for a while so I could make tools/games/media players for WM6.5. The problem was that the native UI was so ugly that I had to design everything from scratch if I wanted it to look pretty. The Direct3D tools for WM6.5 were hard to use because documentation was not easy to understand.
I just started using VS2010 and the difference is night and day... I'm learning to use XNA for 3D stuff and it's just so easy. There are video podcasts available as tutorials as well as all the stuff on websites. I, too, am having fun making this game...
On the other hand, I haven't tried iOS or Android programming.

Why I think WP7 users are worrying about nothing in terms of new apps neglect

It has been said that developers will code for Windows Phone 8 devices and neglect Windows Phone 7..
I totally disagree. If I was a developer I would code for WP7 and not WP8. Not immediately anyway. At launch of WP8, there would be millions more WP7 devices than WP8 devices so why limit my sales to WP8 devices only? WP7 apps work on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps ONLY work on WP8 devices. Therefore, I would code for WP7 devices which work on WP7 AND WP8. Makes total sense if I want to make more money from my app. I would wait several months before coding for WP8 to allow time for a large user base of WP8 owners to grow.
Considering WP7 market share is only 3.8% and the fact that it will continue to drop as people start to realize it's an orphaned platform, if WP8 is successful, I would think most developers would prefer to compile their apps for native WP8. The existing user base of WP7 phones will dry up quickly as people will upgrade at the end of their 1 or 2-year contracts.
For new developers, there's usually a good learning curve when it comes to an SDK, so I don't know why they would want to learn the WP7 SDK when they can jump right to WP8.
My company has developers that we are currently contracting for mobile development. We had an active project going on for WP7 for an enterprise app (business purposes).
The day of the announcement we halted all development... First idea was to stop coding immediately, get our hands on the new SDK, and re-write the app so it would be native to the new OS for when development is finished...
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
-We don't want to push this app for WP7 and have it not run natively on the new WP8...
-If we did stay with Windows Phone, we'd want it to be coded in the best way possible (using the SDK and coded best practice using the new development methods of WP8)...
-We don't want to halt development until we hear more as to WTF is going on with the SDK, development, and a product that isn't even out yet...
-We don't want to code for a platform that is obsolete (WP7).
And most of all, this applies not just to us, but to the typical dev writing a complex app... We don't have the time, funds, and budget to develop for both platforms WP7, and WP8...
Zhariak said:
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
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How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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The only app I know of that is exclusive to WP7 is the Walgreen's app. If you're an old, broken down POS like me, it occupies the top left tile.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
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We are a small biz, this isn't your average tinker app... We chose a platform and OS to our liking... Don't have the resources to manage the same app over multiple platforms... That's the main reason why we aren't developing for both development methods for WP7 and WP8.
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
Laquox said:
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
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They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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I can see that but we probably won't see a SDK for at least 3-6 months. No developer on the planet (that I can think of) is going to wait for that amount of time to get to market. And my take from the Summit was that the 7.5 SDK will not be obsolete as your app will run on WP8. By the time WP8 has a decent enough market share it will be time to refresh your app anyway (14-18 months from now) and then you can make the jump to the new SDK which from what I watched will be almost effortless and will allow native code.
Just my thoughts here.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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In term of money, they would make more money if they can make an app that can run well on both OS without further development.
But in technology side, Native C and C++ would be easier to develop, i am start worrying that Microsoft is driving to a wrong way. Not a straight way to success, but a narrow and longer one.
Just keep thinking about what if they put the native-code support for Windows 7.8 (Simple Speaking, would be what if they make Windows Phone 8 Apps (written in Native C) can run well on Windows Phone 7.8 as well without any modification...
A little more works to be done , but think about what they can get from it. People will respect Windows Phone more, recent user will not regret with their 2-years plan as much as they do right now.
There will be some reasonable explanation about the hardware limitation of the current Windows Phone, but just think about that. I don't think it is impossible to make the current kernel support apps from Windows Phone 8.
If they can't do that right now , just be clear that they don't sound like "Windows Phone 7.8 mark the death for the current Windows Phone gen."
Windows Phone lovers won't be hurt since i know they (and i) will purchase a new phone anyway, but with some users, it is a broken deal if they just picked up a Lumia or Titan for 2-years contract and feel like Microsoft just forget about them.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
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If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Excellent post Wyn6. Well said. For anyone to say that WP7 SDK is dead..
well, they clearly need to change their mind pronto if they want to make money as a developer. I wish WP8 lots of success and think it will be successful, but there is still (and will be) plenty of life in WP7.
Very well said Wyn6. Can you please post it on some more threads here and around other forums where we have headless chickens running around wanting to jump the ship? I've run out of my thanks for today but will make sure they go where they are due. I will be quoting your post in numerous threads I've pulled my hair reading in past 48 hours! Hope you are ok with that
Wyn6 said:
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
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Exactly what i want to say...
Countinuing supporting for Windows Phone 7 right now is the way the developer would do... Since Windows Phone 8/ Windows 8 user base would not reach to the point that WP7.5 has right now.
Wyn6 said:
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
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I agree. I know in the video game console market there has been a long history of making new systems incompatible with previous generations of a console. The reason being is console makers wanted software developers to use the new console's new features. If left to their own devices software makers would be a lot slower to code solely for the new hardware. I don't know why smartphones wouldn't be the same.
The people that think they are clever waiting for Windows Phone 8 are going to be disappointed. The OS will have some great new characteristics that the MSFT built in apps will take advantage of on day one but I doubt there will be a deluge of Windows Phone 8 exclusive apps for a loooonnnngggg time. Who doubts this?
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
pillsburydoughman said:
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
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You are right. Those 100,000 apps that school kids have made for WP7 in about 20 months might be better when a developer who pays $100 makes them. You will be alright.
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
nicksti said:
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
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This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
lqaddict said:
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
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I believe people in here understand that if a software dev wanted to he/she could make software that would be compatible on WP7.8 and 8. What they are debating is if someone would. Because in theory they would want to include as many devices as possible.
Are OEMs going to make new handsets with WP7.8? If the answer is no then WP7 is dead. Dead as my goldfish Goldie.

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