Develop Bugs

Technical Question: Recovering a lost file byte-for-byte

Hi all,
My girlfriend has an XDA-II that - on a whim - decided to hard reset itself. (It has done this once before for me aswell.)
Most of the lost files are of no consequence because a backup is available. However, there is one Word document that we would like to recover that is not backed up. The device has not been used since the hard reset.
I presume that it is likely that the text contents of this Word file are likely to still be in tact somewhere in the RAM (i.e. the bytes are unlikely to have been overwritten just yet). I suppose then that it must be possible - at least theoretically - to obtain a dump of all the contents of the volatile RAM memory (perhaps writing out the contents of RAM to a PC hard drive in one dump).
With this resulting RAM dump I could then search it for words that we know are definitely in the file to obtain most of the text back again.
I was wondering if anyone knows of any program for the XDA-II (or PC) that will copy the ENTIRE contents of all device RAM - byte-for-byte - to the PC.
Failing this, can anyone suggest any way whatsoever to view/copy RAM contents byte-for-byte?
Many Thanks,
Rob

you can undelete media like hd's magnetic storage and flash
because they dont fill in 0's in the bits when they delete they just free up the storage and overwrite the data next time data is saved
ram however goes 100% blank when power is not supplied
so ram cant be undeleted and data cant be recovered from it
which is why newer devices with 2005 place data in flash and not in ram
so their device dont goes blank when a hardreset or dead batt happens

Thanks
Not the feedback I was hoping to get! But thankyou very much all the same for letting me know.
Cheers.
Rob

Creating EXT2 Partitions the easy way

This method will work in windows for:
SD Cards in memory card readers/laptops
Phone set in memory card mode
HISTORY
Ok i ran into a wall with this one because of three reasons:
1. Laptops SD reader requires drivers to work, ok in windows useless in linux without the driver, so gpart and hirens boot cd out the window there.
2. My kaiser has a 6.1 rom on it and as far as i can remember it doesnt have a work as a memory stick option that appears on later roms like my touch pro had.
3. the touch pro has a broken digitiser and wont register my finger, so i can get the dam thing into usb memory stick mode.
So skip ahead if you dont want the long story of how i got it to work and made it a little easier for other.
Ok first job created a virtual pc with blank 8gb virtual disk and created the file system 1 x fat32 and 2 x ext2 partitions using hirens bootcd. Next i cloned the disk to a ghost32 compressed image file, as its only the file table and no files its really small (36K). So i rar'ed it up and uploaded so other people can use it as well. (5K)
HOW TO DO IT
Download my blank ghost image from :
Then you need ghost32.exe this can be extracted or ran from hirens bootcd and found as part of a Trialware download at Symantecs site: https://www4.symantec.com/Vrt/offer?a_id=32763 (you will need to create a login to download)
From there just run ghost32.exe and have your sd card ready and connected to the machine, be it in reader or a phone set in memory card mode. Select Disk from Image and select the image file on your hard disk. Then select the SD card and adjust the volume sizes as your require, it will complain about locking the drive and took an age on mine (2 mins), but eventually it was done from there just follow your droid guides for installing.
I know this doesnt help the vast amount of people, but if your stuck like i was and could get access to the card under windows and nothing else it works a treat. If however you can access it under dos etc, you may also want to use this way as its much faster than having to burn an ISO and reboot your entire PC just for partition an SD Card.
Hope this helps someone out.
PASSWORD: Android
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=D64ZX4ZH - 5K

Nice solution, I can see this coming in handy for many who may be in a similar situation.

plazma247 said:
HOW TO DO IT
Download my blank ghost image from :
http://rapidshare.com/files/404732241/Android-SD-Image.rar - 5K
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since it's only 5k, do you mind posting it here? The link has reached limit, 10 downloads.

Re-mirrored and added to the main post, lol ur lucky it was deleted from the main machine, tho the laptop still had the ghost image

Nice, but can you make one for 4gb sd card
Thanks.

plazma247 said:
Re-mirrored and added to the main post, lol ur lucky it was deleted from the main machine, tho the laptop still had the ghost image
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you! I'll try it out ..

Dude it will suit any size memory stick you can adjust the partition sizes as it writes them

plazma247 said:
Dude it will suit any size memory stick you can adjust the partition sizes as it writes them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
gotcha *thumbs up*

Brilliant solution! One of those "Why did nobody think of this before" things.

Making a bigger /data partition for apps

I've been wanting to make a larger /data partition on a Droid Incredible. I mean, after all, it comes with a lot of storage. But there is not nearly enough for apps. Sure. I can use my SD card. But unless there is something I'm not aware of, you can only install some apps to the SD and even when you do, pieces of that app still exist in /data. But what's even worse is the fact that I already use my SD card for movies and videos and such and I just don't really use the unclaimed space of which there is plenty, in the phone, for that sort of thing and yet I can't use it to install apps. I haven't found too much on this topic outside of using App2SD. I did find a lot of talk of using parted and even gparted. But this talk is generally about partitioning your SD card. If I were to use parted or gparted to resize the /data partition at the expense of another partition's space and I did it properly, would the Android system not boot because of it? And if this is doable, is there a better, easier way to do it than using parted and adb or gparted? Also, is there a guide for resizing your /data partition? I could probably survive without one if I had to but it would really be helpful just in case there are some big DO NOT DO's that should be avoided that aren't obvious. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

enigmatl said:
I've been wanting to make a larger /data partition on a Droid Incredible. I mean, after all, it comes with a lot of storage. But there is not nearly enough for apps. Sure. I can use my SD card. But unless there is something I'm not aware of, you can only install some apps to the SD and even when you do, pieces of that app still exist in /data. But what's even worse is the fact that I already use my SD card for movies and videos and such and I just don't really use the unclaimed space of which there is plenty, in the phone, for that sort of thing and yet I can't use it to install apps. I haven't found too much on this topic outside of using App2SD. I did find a lot of talk of using parted and even gparted. But this talk is generally about partitioning your SD card. If I were to use parted or gparted to resize the /data partition at the expense of another partition's space and I did it properly, would the Android system not boot because of it? And if this is doable, is there a better, easier way to do it than using parted and adb or gparted? Also, is there a guide for resizing your /data partition? I could probably survive without one if I had to but it would really be helpful just in case there are some big DO NOT DO's that should be avoided that aren't obvious. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
theres around 780mb in there thats not enough?

JoelZ9614 said:
theres around 780mb in there thats not enough?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He's talking about /data/data/ which is like 150mb, I use the NotEnoughSpace app it lets you store data on cache, emmc, sd card, you should check it out.

Well, I messed with notenoughspace too which was my eason for posting. This was the app that made me say enough is enough, can I just resize /data/data?.
-1- So much space on the incredible is going to waste while programs such as these would have me put apps on the SD where I really do want space for my other stuff like music and movies.
-2- Unless I missed a button or option, NotEnoughSpace came off as annoying to me. I would go into apps and wait for a minute for it to scan every time I do it and then I pick an app, for example Beejive. It makes me move it ONE FILE AT A TIME. And even then, there is stuff you can't move. Can I not just move the app, all of it in one click?
But most importantly, I just want more space on /data/data. I want to resize the partition. The phone has what, 8 gigs on it and allows 150 mb for apps in there which is just crazy.
Can I resize the partition where apps are stored (/data/data) by way of parted or gparted? to avoid the annoyance of using my external storage which I want to use for movies and music? There's probably 6 or so gigs on my phone I'll never use for media that should be meant for apps.
Has anybody resized the data partition? Are there consequences to doing it if it's done properly? Is there a guide? What is the easiest way to do this? Any help would be appreciated.

enigmatl said:
Well, I messed with notenoughspace too which was my eason for posting. This was the app that made me say enough is enough, can I just resize /data/data?.
-1- So much space on the incredible is going to waste while programs such as these would have me put apps on the SD where I really do want space for my other stuff like music and movies.
-2- Unless I missed a button or option, NotEnoughSpace came off as annoying to me. I would go into apps and wait for a minute for it to scan every time I do it and then I pick an app, for example Beejive. It makes me move it ONE FILE AT A TIME. And even then, there is stuff you can't move. Can I not just move the app, all of it in one click?
But most importantly, I just want more space on /data/data. I want to resize the partition. The phone has what, 8 gigs on it and allows 150 mb for apps in there which is just crazy.
Can I resize the partition where apps are stored (/data/data) by way of parted or gparted? to avoid the annoyance of using my external storage which I want to use for movies and music? There's probably 6 or so gigs on my phone I'll never use for media that should be meant for apps.
Has anybody resized the data partition? Are there consequences to doing it if it's done properly? Is there a guide? What is the easiest way to do this? Any help would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ask conap hes good with this type of thing

Making progress but still need help.
There's some talk on the net that you can modify the size of the .img files that nandroid makes and simply flash them back to your phone.
Problem is, I can't find a windows way to do it on the net. The closest that I've come is a program called toporesize. This program will let you open files such as data.img from your nandroid backup. But you can't resize them because you get an error box that says this appears to not be an ext* filesystem. Check size file only to resize the file or use other tools. I'm assuming that means it wants you to check a button that says resize file only no resize2fs. In the one guide I found that talks about this app, it says do not check this box. So I'm assuming if you did, it would work and then when you flashed the file back to your phone, it would either not boot or the size would not be changed properly.
I also noted that there's a thread or two that has posted some custom sized data.img files for download. I would do this as a last resort but would prefer to resize my own data.img for a more precise choice of how large I want it.
The error mentions other tools. Are there other tools or programs for Windows users?
Does anybody have any insight on resizing the /data/data partition either by this method, by using parted/gparted, or any other method that works effectively?

I would avoid trying to alter the size of the partitions on your phone. That is how you end up with a brick. There are other ways including finding out which apps are taking up all of your space. 150 MB does not sound like a lot, but it is considering what is stored there.
Go into Manage Applications and click on the All tab. Then press the menu key and sort by size. Click on the apps near the top with anything higher than 3 or 4 MB. Look at the details in the storage section for each app. You will see a Data line item. If it is really high in proportion of the size of the Application, you should clear it. That will save you a lot of space.
In the case of the Mail app or other social networking apps like Facebook or Twitter, you can go into the settings and restrict how much data is stored on the phone. They can really eat up space by downloading a month of emails, etc ...

ihtfp69 said:
I would avoid trying to alter the size of the partitions on your phone. That is how you end up with a brick. There are other ways including finding out which apps are taking up all of your space. 150 MB does not sound like a lot, but it is considering what is stored there.
Go into Manage Applications and click on the All tab. Then press the menu key and sort by size. Click on the apps near the top with anything higher than 3 or 4 MB. Look at the details in the storage section for each app. You will see a Data line item. If it is really high in proportion of the size of the Application, you should clear it. That will save you a lot of space.
In the case of the Mail app or other social networking apps like Facebook or Twitter, you can go into the settings and restrict how much data is stored on the phone. They can really eat up space by downloading a month of emails, etc ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This request is meant with respect and NOT as a flame but I have to make this request so others don't follow and potentially change the thread into a debate on whether to resize or not resize the partition.
Please let's not start talking about whether this is a good idea or not nor if doing this can make our phone into a brick. Now that it's been said, those lurking and considering this for themselves can make up their own minds. But there are a lot of things talked about throughout XDA that can make your phone into a brick yet things are done in the name of making our devices better.
And yes. We can take action to reduce the amount of data that apps are taking up. To tell you the truth, I would do that even if I had a 1GB partition. I think always saving space when space can be saved is a good idea.
But just in principle, I and probably others want to reclaim that space on our phones that will never be used by anything. Maybe HTC allocated the space as it's allocated because some users won't use an SD card and will then use that space for their media and other miscellaneous stuff.
But once you have an SD card that's way bigger than the extra space on your phone, it becomes pointless to use that space on your phone for media. So I want it available for data.
So both sides of whether to do this or not have now been posed. I ask can we please get back to the topic of how to though I do thank you for your input.
That said, again, does anybody know how to resize your data partition whether by doing it live with parted or gparted or by editing the data.img file that nandroid via clockwork mod puts out? I would really appreciate it.
I tried making a nandroid backup of the phone through clockworkmod, sending the data.img file to my computer, using toporesize to resize it. And by the way, I was forced to check the resize file only no resize2fs button as not doing this generated an error. I then used md5sum to get an md5sum for the new data.img. I then inserted the md5sum in clockwork/nandroid's nandroid.md5 file (with a linux file compatable text editor). I then sent the entire backup back to the phone in a different clockworkmod/backup folder, used rom manager to restore, selected the new resized backup.
After the flashing was complete, I went into my phone only to find that the data partition still had the same amount free (give or take a few K). I wondered if that's because I had to shrink the system file? I was thinking before I started that it's probable that I would have to shrink another partition that had free space so I chose system. I attempted to repeat the above steps from the beginning this time with the plan of shrinking system.img.
No go. toporesize will not shrink it properly. Errors are reported in the process though when I reload it into toporesize, it looks like it has the size I want. Knowing it would probably fail, I tried to continue anyway. Even with the correct md5sum, nandroid won't even start the recovery of that set. You get a status bar for a second and then, the phone just reboots.
So for now, I'm at a loss but I know this can be done.
Whether using this method or another, does anybody know how to properly change the size of the data partition using WINDOWS?

Don't come crying when you brick it.

ihtfp69 said:
Don't come crying when you brick it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have no intentions of such. -1- I will quite likely never brick it as nandroid pretty much has me covered. But if I do, -2- I don't plan on having this phone forever. It's not new any more. There are already several models that are better than the droid incredible that I'm looking at. If I were to brick this phone, yay. Good excuse to buy a new phone. But, odds are, i'll never brick it and come November or December, I'll buy something else anyhow.
So please, this isn't about the risks, of course you can brick your phone trying this or many other things on XDA.
Does anyone know how to resize the data partition using any method that can be done with the help of a Windows machine?

This is a fundamental change to a very sensitive area you have
276 mb for the system rom and 748mb for user apps.Many rom devs seem to be straining to keep the rom below 200mb and it is amazingly easy to fill up 748 mb with little apps.
I would think if it were possible to do this it would have been done by the rom devs first thing. I would love to see a rom dev bump this to 500mb and 1024mb.
Chances are to re partition the partitions on the phones memory is not possible with out a hboot flash or something of a custom bootloader...
I find removing these help... Also i use handcent and gmail.app instead of the stock apps...
friendstream
peep
twitter
flicker
stocks app
facebook

748 mb? I only have 150 available in /data/data. How do you get 748?

enigmatl said:
748 mb? I only have 150 available in /data/data. How do you get 748?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
748mb is the size of the entire /data partition what us devs are doing with the new roms is symlinking things to the /system from /data i've managed to do it without symlinking but it bring the /system to its limits and thats usually not good to do

enigmatl said:
748 mb? I only have 150 available in /data/data. How do you get 748?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In my /data/data i have 95.96 MB free
rom 35MB free
app space 212 MB free
internal 6.44GB free

Also /data/data is a different partition than /data so the 150 is not included as part of the 748.

Resize /data/data partition - Update?
Did you ever find a solution to resizing the HTC Incredible's partitions?
I too am fed up with having to constantly clear caches and uninstalled apps, just because the tiny 150MB partition fills up. It's been a problem since my wife and I bought our phones.
I expect it would have to be done by a custom bootloader, but thought I would check and see if you had any success.
If nandroid recreates the partition tables based on the sizes of the .img partition backups, then they could probably be resized by mounting the .IMG files directly under Linux and using Linux tools to resize each one - or - creating a new .img partition of the new size(s), mount the backups and copy everything over to the new one, unmount it and go from there?
Steve

Have you used the Ext4 mod created by Tiny and Jermaine151?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1623038
...and the following is the original thread which has the details of what exactly the mod does:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1315372
If I'm reading this (outdated) thread correctly, this mod is what you're looking for in regards to partitioning /data/data. The second link is provided in the OP of my first link.

SlimSnoopOS said:
Have you used the Ext4 mod created by Tiny and Jermaine151?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1623038
...and the following is the original thread which has the details of what exactly the mod does:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1315372
If I'm reading this (outdated) thread correctly, this mod is what you're looking for in regards to partitioning /data/data. The second link is provided in the OP of my first link.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What he said ^^^^
Just do it.

!! One X serious SD storage issue, disappear more than 10G which is not used at all

Hi, Guy
I just found that my SD internal storage get very small every day, I did not install lots of thing, but now it is only 1.5G.
So you need to check yours as well on your computer to see is it happen to you. It is very serious problem which will cause SD care data lost in the end.
This is how you can check.
1 Connect your One X USB to PC. Use USB storage mode.
2 In file manager click on your X'sd card name and mouse right click choose properties, it show how much data used and how much left. Write done the number.
3 Click you SD card icon and pop up another screen show all folders and data in SD card, use Ctrl+A to select them all, then mouse right click and choose properties to show the calculation for how much all those files storage.
The used space for step 2 and step 3 shall be almost same if it is correct. But on my One x it has 13G difference. Which means the 13G storage is nowhere on the SD card but system think they are. So you will loose those space.
Do your check and see how many of you has this problem.

I must admit I felt that my storeage was showing a considerable amount less than what I was expecting the other day...
I'll have to plug in my phone to cross reference the figures there agains't what the handset is saying...
Then again I did pump my HOX full of Vids, Movies and .CBZ files.

I had the same problem with the One X ported rom on Sensation, I kept loosing GB of memory for no reasons...till I found the bug: gallery cache!
There is a folder for the Gallery app that keep adding cache and eat huge amount of memory, just delete this folder and disable caching in gallery

vegetaleb said:
I had the same problem with the One X ported rom on Sensation, I kept loosing GB of memory for no reasons...till I found the bug: gallery cache!
There is a folder for the Gallery app that keep adding cache and eat huge amount of memory, just delete this folder and disable caching in gallery
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
could you let us know what is the name of it? I checked SD card there is no folder called Gallery.

vegetaleb said:
I had the same problem with the One X ported rom on Sensation, I kept loosing GB of memory for no reasons...till I found the bug: gallery cache!
There is a folder for the Gallery app that keep adding cache and eat huge amount of memory, just delete this folder and disable caching in gallery
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how did u disable cache?

I'd also like a bit more info about the gallery cache folder please.
My phone memory is definitely lower than it should be. I was going to format it, but if this folder is causing the problem... maybe i won't need to.

It's in the camera folder aka DCIM
The cache folder must be there if I remember well.

Guys.....
Just delete the LOST.DIR.
There are thousands of threads about this.

xmoo said:
Guys.....
Just delete the LOST.DIR.
There are thousands of threads about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks. I found the LOST.DIR in SD but it is empty. I delete it and do reboot. Nothing changed. Any other hint？

vegetaleb said:
It's in the camera folder aka DCIM
The cache folder must be there if I remember well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry no folder of such. And it is not folder issue I guess. This issue is now reported world wide in other place as well. It just break out. And it is not 1.29 issue I'm still on 1.28 rom. it is related to USB connection and also install program in SD card. I hope XDA dev can look into it seriously!

Zipperface said:
I'd also like a bit more info about the gallery cache folder please.
My phone memory is definitely lower than it should be. I was going to format it, but if this folder is causing the problem... maybe i won't need to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Foramtting will not helpful. I know some guys format several times and it still eat your SD card. It is the phone problem with ROM. HTC need fix it.

As I said it was an early port of the One X port, did you try the thumbnail folder in DCIM?

mmx6688 said:
Thanks. I found the LOST.DIR in SD but it is empty. I delete it and do reboot. Nothing changed. Any other hint？
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The directory is always empty. I deleted it and just won 2GB extra space.

vegetaleb said:
As I said it was an early port of the One X port, did you try the thumbnail folder in DCIM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I delete all files in thumbnail folder, nothing improved.

xmoo said:
The directory is always empty. I deleted it and just won 2GB extra space.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks to let me know. So if you use PC USB connection to check as I posted for step 2, 3, how much difference of those figures?

Deleted LOST.DIR and gained 0!
Adding all stuff up on the sd card i have about 15-16 gig. I have just over 5 gig left!
Yesterday i deleted Dungeon Defenders (800ish meg) I had nearly 6 gig... where did the other 1gig go overnight?!

You will have to ''seek and destroy'' the bad folder.
I hope you don't have many folders in your main SD directory,select 2-3 folders and right click to see if you get huge amount of memory used,then narrow the search till eliminating the bad boys

mmx6688 said:
Hi, Guy
I just found that my SD internal storage get very small every day, I did not install lots of thing, but now it is only 1.5G.
So you need to check yours as well on your computer to see is it happen to you. It is very serious problem which will cause SD care data lost in the end.
This is how you can check.
1 Connect your One X USB to PC. Use USB storage mode.
2 In file manager click on your X'sd card name and mouse right click choose properties, it show how much data used and how much left. Write done the number.
3 Click you SD card icon and pop up another screen show all folders and data in SD card, use Ctrl+A to select them all, then mouse right click and choose properties to show the calculation for how much all those files storage.
The used space for step 2 and step 3 shall be almost same if it is correct. But on my One x it has 13G difference. Which means the 13G storage is nowhere on the SD card but system think they are. So you will loose those space.
Do your check and see how many of you has this problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
solution:
just make a back up of your phone storage. simply to open phone storage in your pc, select and copy you all folders of phone storage and paste in any folder of pc, then do quick fomat your phone storage called (htc storage), then take back all your folders to htc storage by paste command.

ramis7 said:
solution:
just make a back up of your phone storage. simply to open phone storage in your pc, select and copy you all folders of phone storage and paste in any folder of pc, then do quick fomat your phone storage called (htc storage), then take back all your folders to htc storage by paste command.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This isnt a solution. It works initially but the storage space starts to vanish again after a few days. Ive doe this twice now. It must be a bug that needs sorting out asap. This is my only issue on my phone though. No screen flickering problems fortunately
Sent from my HTC Legend using XDA

ramis7 said:
solution:
just make a back up of your phone storage. simply to open phone storage in your pc, select and copy you all folders of phone storage and paste in any folder of pc, then do quick fomat your phone storage called (htc storage), then take back all your folders to htc storage by paste command.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I know this solution that is to get back the lost space. And I just did it since I have only 1G left so can not take the risk for any more lost space. Now I get 15G free.
But it is just temporary solution, after few days it probably loose more space again but now I will keep monitor of it.
HTC need to fix this problem.

[Q] "low storage space" (but actually not?)

When I boot up my phone, the first thing it says that there's not enough space to complete some kind of action(see attached picture below). I have more than 2GB free space on sdcard and almost 6GB free space on external sd, even in file system root I have 1gb/2gb space.
I have cm10.
what does it mean? what does it want? and why does it says that? and what "action" does it talk about??
I wouldnt care if it will be just this message,but since it started this, the phone seems to be more unstable(sometimes it loses wifi/cell signal,have to press lock button 3 times to wake up,and stuff..), so I decided to make a clean reinstall anyway, but it would be great if some of u had any ideas what causes this

I've experienced something similar. I use to mount the storage on my win7 laptop and use to copy/delete files from them. Suddenly it was not letting me copy anymore telling me that the storage is out of space and when i saw it it showed free space which got me confused.
So i went ahead and set windows to show all hidden files and OS files. On the storage there was a "recycle bin" having 1.6 gb of data . I deleted the folder and all was fine.
Maybe your's is a completely different issu,e but you can check for the above.

ninthsense said:
I've experienced something similar. I use to mount the storage on my win7 laptop and use to copy/delete files from them. Suddenly it was not letting me copy anymore telling me that the storage is out of space and when i saw it it showed free space which got me confused.
So i went ahead and set windows to show all hidden files and OS files. On the storage there was a "recycle bin" having 1.6 gb of data . I deleted the folder and all was fine.
Maybe your's is a completely different issu,e but you can check for the above.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hm, I set it to show all hidden and "protected os files" (I have windows 8 on my netbook), but no "recycle bin" can be seen.. :S maybe I'm missing some more options to show that, or looking in the wrong place