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Hey Guys,
just starting a new threat to look for info and ideas about the next subject:
I am going to get a new phone in the next few months. Probable looking for an HTC with WP7.
I dont know if I will like it and I am wondering if these new phones could be flashed back to WM6.5.
Of course I would be willing to help with all kinds of WP7 ideas an tests, even though I am not a developper myself.
So, the statement for the new threat:
--Would it be possible/worhty to make 6.5 roms for WP7 hardware?--
Possible, sure. Likely, no. WM6.5 is, for most intents and purposes, dead. Highly unlikely that anyone puts in the time and effort needed to hack the bootloader, etc of specific devices in order to backport the old OS.
Sander101077 said:
Hey Guys,
just starting a new threat to look for info and ideas about the next subject:
I am going to get a new phone in the next few months. Probable looking for an HTC with WP7.
I dont know if I will like it and I am wondering if these new phones could be flashed back to WM6.5.
Of course I would be willing to help with all kinds of WP7 ideas an tests, even though I am not a developper myself.
So, the statement for the new threat:
--Would it be possible/worhty to make 6.5 roms for WP7 hardware?--
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think u can buy a 6.5phone now
If you're looking for backwards compatibility Windows Embedded Handheld 7 (based on WM6.x) is scheduled for the second half of 2011.
I've been following the conversations backstage and I don't think WM6.5 is dead at all. WP7 has a lot of shortcomings when it comes to business use. No copy/paste, less customization, etc. In fact, it is a dumb smartphone which is more geared for the iphone type consumer...those who would gladly trade endless customization and features for simplicity. Those who look at phones as fashion accessories and toys rather than something designed to get work done more efficiently. Sadly, the market for this is much much larger than the market for serious smart devices. Steve Jobs figured this out which is why the iphone is such a big hit, but most of us here have been looking at these folks going "wow, you can copy/paste now? Neat. I've been doing that for years!".
I had a list at one point which detailed all the things that WP7 does NOT do that 6.5 does and I can tell you that enterprise customers will not accept WP7 as a replacement to WM6.x. Many large companies out here are Microsoft partners with exchange servers, sharepoint, Office suitefor all employees and as a matter of IT support, they only support Windows Mobile so that their IT departments only have to manage MS products. If hey were to cut off SM6.x entirely while rolling out WP7, purchasing departments across the country would make a huge shift to blackberry. I'm certain that this is why RIM decided to go forward with plans for a new OS and why HP purchased Palm with their WebOS. They are both counting on MS doing this.
However, through conversations with various insiders at MS, it appears these fears are unfounded. Windows 6.5 is expected to continue being developed even into next year with possible future upgrades to the OS itself. WP7 will not support skins such as the HTC Sense interface, and because of the business users with business devices - particularly full qwerty devices like the Treo, Glisten, etc - they do expect to continue development.
I have heard rumors that there is actually a long development cycle planned for WM which involves the next iteration of Windows Mobile which will be renamed Windows 7 Professional. This would be in line with MS and their way of doing things and matches up nicely with Windows 7 and Windows Phone 7. I don't know how much of this part is true and how much is just rumors floating around backstage, but it makes a lot of sense.
kfreels said:
I've been following the conversations backstage and I don't think WM6.5 is dead at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..not dead....dying. The next iteration of 'WM' is BASED on 6.5.x and then in 2011 a version (based on WP7) with XNA and silverlight support is due.
Here's some info on the next 'WM' release....~note...this is not a 'WP' release so doesn't fall under the 'Windows Phone' umbrella, it's a new version of Windows Mobile - Embedded and it;s backwards compatible.
http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/press-releases/microsoft-outlines-commitment-future-enterprise-handheld-devices
..also mentioned here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=6917106&posted=1#post6917106
Moving to General .
I will delete this post with in a week or two, so it doesn't clutter.
kfreels said:
WP7 has a lot of shortcomings when it comes to business use. No copy/paste.
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Click to collapse
God, I'm so tired of hearing this. There will be copy&paste, they said it often enough...
I had a list at one point which detailed all the things that WP7 does NOT do that 6.5 does and I can tell you that enterprise customers will not accept WP7 as a replacement to WM6.x. Many large companies out here are Microsoft partners with exchange servers, sharepoint, Office suitefor all employees and as a matter of IT support, they only support Windows Mobile so that their IT departments only have to manage MS products.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All the products you name (Office, Sharepoint, Exchange) are natively supported by WP7. Have you seen ANY WP7 demo video lately?
I really regret the day I switched to WP. What's up with all these platform instability since WM 6.5? Why do they keep on changing stuff that worries poor consumers. A lot of people really need to be sacked from MS for making stupid decisions.
I really don't care about the stupid looks they announced.....all I care about is being supported.
Microsoft has confirmed that WP8 apps WILL NOT RUN in WP7.x. How many developers do you really think are going to design for WP7 now? To tell y'all the truth, there will be no support for WP7.x when WP8 comes out. I need support for apps not stupid looks.
Currently we (WP7.x) users are still fighting and praying for apps to come out, now with the announcement of this, I guess all ideas will be dropped and shifted to WP8...WTF! Is this some sort of Marketing strategy or what? Why didn't they decide all this kernel change before releasing WP7? We would have all be able to upgrade peacefully. With this I really think they'll change the kernel again when WP9 comes out and the cycle continues again.....why Microsoft? Are you guys some college and high school dudes with no PhD holders amongst you? Thus accounting for the stupid decisions you make to hurt our feelings and steal our money. I don't buy phones cheap because phones here are not carrier based and on contract....they are all unbranded and expensive. When will I ever get a WP8 device? My current phone is less than 14months old and you really wanna make me buy an expensive phone again or still use my device like a Symbian phone? This is just stupid.
I now understand and know that using a WP7.x was really a beta test.
I'm really pissed and just gonna throw my Stupid WP away and even switch. What's up with all these stupid changes and instability with the platform
I was unaware a PhD was required to be capable of of making intelligent decisions. They had to make these changes to remain competitive, and the current hardware is incapable of supporting the majority of them. Chill out. If you weren't on a 3 year contract, this wouldn't be a problem now would it? It's just as much your fault as Microsoft's..
Sent from my SGH-i937 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
WP7.x apps WILL work on WP8 so why should developers stop developing at all for WP7.x when WP8 is still 6 months away?
What I see is, developers will try to make use of the multicore capabilities of WP8. With this, you can not develop an app for both WP8 and 7.x and they'll will probably be developing those new apps on a WP8 device later this year. You just can't develop a multicore app on WP7.x. The android boys now have something to laugh at....FRAGMENTATION....welcomed at last.
What happens after WP7.8 upgrade? NOTHING? DEAD END I guess. Your fresh Lumia 900 is obsolete now.
Get over it. Its progress that has to happen.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
Kenzibit said:
What I see is, developers will try to make use of the multicore capabilities of WP8. With this, you can not develop an app for both WP8 and 7.x and they'll will probably be developing those new apps on a WP8 device later this year. You just can't develop a multicore app on WP7.x. The android boys now have something to laugh at....FRAGMENTATION....welcomed at last ;(
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also
Kenzibit it seems you are using HTC HD7 released in 2010, October which will make it exactly 2 years to date till WP8 so I am not sure what you are complaining about....
Kenzibit said:
Microsoft has confirmed that WP8 apps WILL NOT RUN in WP7.x.
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Click to collapse
That's not true. Only apps that use native code will not run on WP7.8!
64GUNSHIP said:
It's just as much your fault as Microsoft's
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Click to collapse
Absolutely agree!!!
To everyone who is complaining, you guys bought your devices without any guarantee by AT&T, T-Mobile, Samsung, HTC, Nokia or Microsoft that these phones would be upgradable to WP8. You people knew that WP8 was being released this fall and a whole slew of new devices would be offered with better resolutions, nfc, NT kernel and native support yet you still went out and bought these devices. You have NO reason to be upset about this because it was entirely your decision to buy these devices before first knowing what would happen...
So stop whining, enjoy what you currently have and wait till you're eligible for an upgrade... if you want to switch, you can do that, too!
v_garg said:
Also
Kenzibit it seems you are using HTC HD7 released in 2010, October which will make it exactly 2 years to date till WP8 so I am not sure what you are complaining about....
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Click to collapse
The thing is my phone is not a contract phone so this 2 year thing ain't affecting me. I'm not a carrier based phone holder...bought my phone $500 back then and now they want me to buy a $1000 WP8 device? I'm broke already.
crav4speed said:
That's not true. Only apps that use native code will not run on WP7.8!
Give me the source
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Click to collapse
Even if - all future ports between iOS, Android and now WP8 will be in native code. See the problem there?
I told y'all the cycle will repeat itself oneday...
Look what just came out:
"While current Windows Phones – even those that just launched this year – will be cut off with Windows Phone 7.8, future Windows Phone 8 devices will get at least 18 months of software updates. However, Apple has historically provided iOS updates for its various devices over a much longer timeframe – the iPhone 3GS, introduced back in 2009, will receive iOS 6 later this year, plus minor updates after that, which makes for over 40 months of updates. If the Windows Phone team sticks to its yearly release schedule, 18 months would mean only one major update plus six months of additional minor updates.
Right after 18 months, So called WP8 will be ****ed just like WP7.x now.
Read the cooments too.
http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phon...s-of-over-the-air-updates-but-is-that-enough/
Kenzibit said:
The thing is my phone is not a contract phone so this 2 year thing ain't affecting me. I'm not a carrier based phone holder...bought my phone $500 back then and now they want me to buy a $1000 WP8 device? I'm broke already.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's been TWO YEARS!!! How much Starbucks are you drinking chief? If you put $20 a month in a jar you can afford a new phone. If you sell your current phone you will need even less money to get a new Windows 8 Phone. You cannot buy a phone and expect for it to get the new kernel update two years later. MSFT got screwed on Windows Mobile because it clung to it for too long. They could have done a reboot long before the iphone hit and they would have been in a perfect position... but they didn't. It is far better for them to do this reboot now along with their Surface and new desktop OS than keep clinging to Windows Phone 7.5.
Anyway you've been b-tching about Windows Phone for months. It just may be time for you to move on.
Kenzibit said:
crav4speed said:
That's not true. Only apps that use native code will not run on WP7.8!
Give me the source
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-8-slide-gallery/
Look at slides 28 and 29. There will still be app development in XAML/C#
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...hone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/12975
“New applications compiled specifically for Windows Phone 8 will not be made available for Windows Phone 7.x devices.”
The key words being "compiled specifically for Windows Phone 8".
The developers have choices in how to develop their apps. Only apps written in native code will not run on WP7.8. I think the majority of applications to be written in native code will mostly be games and VOIP apps. Do you really think Microsoft will completely abandon WP7.8??? Ok, it's possible but most likely in another 18-24 months when your HD7 is 5 years old!
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Click to collapse
^ I bet you no one will be developing for WP7, it just doesnt make sense. WP8 will just be easier.
Its all cupcakes and strawberries when Apple does it, but Microsoft does it and its a problem?
The writing was on the wall on launch day, no one would believe me though. There was absolutely no multi core support from the beginning. This had to happen.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
Grow up complainers. WP7 is still the best OS out there. 7.8 is just an added bonus. Do we really need NFC and dual cores? It runs well on single core. WVGA although not fantastic is perfectly fine for mobile screens. Not far a tablet but for mobile screens is fine. Microsoft can't be expected to magicialy upgrade your hardware specs over the air and will only provide only the features that current hardware can support. WP7 will not die when WP8 comes out. It will just be the 2nd best OS out there (WP8 being the 1st) ;-)
vetvito said:
^ I bet you no one will be developing for WP7, it just doesnt make sense. WP8 will just be easier.
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Click to collapse
I honestly would not be surprised if Microsoft forced developers to use C# when developing apps and native code when developing games. They can't afford to piss off early WP7 adopters!
The SDK will ask you what type of app you are developing and if you choose "app", you need to use C# and if you choose "game", native code will be allowed. There are a number of ways to enforce this as well, an example being Marketplace Certification.
crav4speed said:
Kenzibit said:
http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-8-slide-gallery/
Look at slides 28 and 29. There will still be app development in XAML/C#
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft...hone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/12975
“New applications compiled specifically for Windows Phone 8 will not be made available for Windows Phone 7.x devices.”
The key words being "compiled specifically for Windows Phone 8".
The developers have choices in how to develop their apps. Only apps written in native code will not run on WP7.8. I think the majority of applications to be written in native code will mostly be games and VOIP apps. Do you really think Microsoft will completely abandon WP7.8??? Ok, it's possible but most likely in another 18-24 months when your HD7 is 5 years old!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good, you have an intelligent point though.....but I'm still sad, drinking my 5th bear now...gotta go sleep.
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Click to collapse
Kenzibit said:
The thing is my phone is not a contract phone so this 2 year thing ain't affecting me. I'm not a carrier based phone holder...bought my phone $500 back then and now they want me to buy a $1000 WP8 device? I'm broke already.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just picked up another HTC Trophy for $109 on ebay so I wouldn't have to renew the contract for the other line on my account. But not being able to afford a new phone if you're broke is more of a personal finance issue.
crav4speed said:
. They can't afford to piss off early WP7 adopters!
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, yes they can, and they did. Its not the first time they have done this.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
This thread is full of misinformation.
1. Windows phone 8 apps will NOT run on WP7.x
2. WP7.x apps will be automatically recompiled to run on WP8. They did this to claim they still have a 100,000 apps in their app store for WP8.
3. C++/XAML will be supported on WP8, to not break WP7.x apps on WP8.
4. WP8 apps will not, cannot be recompiled to WP7.x
5. WP7.x uses the CE Kernel!. It's a completely different kernel for WP8.
WP7.x is a deadend platform with deadend os. The only good thing is developers won't have to redo their existing apps, however all developers will start learning the new Windows RT API.
I don't see anyone bothering with xaml anymore, hence wp7.x apps will dry up fast. Everyone will be switching.
It has been said that developers will code for Windows Phone 8 devices and neglect Windows Phone 7..
I totally disagree. If I was a developer I would code for WP7 and not WP8. Not immediately anyway. At launch of WP8, there would be millions more WP7 devices than WP8 devices so why limit my sales to WP8 devices only? WP7 apps work on WP7 and WP8. WP8 apps ONLY work on WP8 devices. Therefore, I would code for WP7 devices which work on WP7 AND WP8. Makes total sense if I want to make more money from my app. I would wait several months before coding for WP8 to allow time for a large user base of WP8 owners to grow.
Considering WP7 market share is only 3.8% and the fact that it will continue to drop as people start to realize it's an orphaned platform, if WP8 is successful, I would think most developers would prefer to compile their apps for native WP8. The existing user base of WP7 phones will dry up quickly as people will upgrade at the end of their 1 or 2-year contracts.
For new developers, there's usually a good learning curve when it comes to an SDK, so I don't know why they would want to learn the WP7 SDK when they can jump right to WP8.
My company has developers that we are currently contracting for mobile development. We had an active project going on for WP7 for an enterprise app (business purposes).
The day of the announcement we halted all development... First idea was to stop coding immediately, get our hands on the new SDK, and re-write the app so it would be native to the new OS for when development is finished...
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
-We don't want to push this app for WP7 and have it not run natively on the new WP8...
-If we did stay with Windows Phone, we'd want it to be coded in the best way possible (using the SDK and coded best practice using the new development methods of WP8)...
-We don't want to halt development until we hear more as to WTF is going on with the SDK, development, and a product that isn't even out yet...
-We don't want to code for a platform that is obsolete (WP7).
And most of all, this applies not just to us, but to the typical dev writing a complex app... We don't have the time, funds, and budget to develop for both platforms WP7, and WP8...
Zhariak said:
Unfortunately, no SDK is yet available for WP8, and after the business guys got involved, meeting with developers, we are thinking of switching platforms (to iOS, or Android. Whichever is more friendly for the enterprise) just because we don't want to run in to this again...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only app I know of that is exclusive to WP7 is the Walgreen's app. If you're an old, broken down POS like me, it occupies the top left tile.
sitizenx said:
How many people are creating apps for Windows Phone exclusively? Besides the Nokia Collection (for obvious reasons) not a single other app on my phone is unique to Windows Phone. You are going to need to give us more information. Why would you ignore iphone and Andriod anyway? That's insane. It sounds like the place where you work is poorly run. I don't think that is the fault of MSFT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We are a small biz, this isn't your average tinker app... We chose a platform and OS to our liking... Don't have the resources to manage the same app over multiple platforms... That's the main reason why we aren't developing for both development methods for WP7 and WP8.
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
Laquox said:
Did we all watch the same 2 hour video of the summit? Because Joe specifically states that all windows phone 7.5 apps will work with windows 8 with "little to no tweaking of the code." So I don't get why everyone is so worried.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can see that but we probably won't see a SDK for at least 3-6 months. No developer on the planet (that I can think of) is going to wait for that amount of time to get to market. And my take from the Summit was that the 7.5 SDK will not be obsolete as your app will run on WP8. By the time WP8 has a decent enough market share it will be time to refresh your app anyway (14-18 months from now) and then you can make the jump to the new SDK which from what I watched will be almost effortless and will allow native code.
Just my thoughts here.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In term of money, they would make more money if they can make an app that can run well on both OS without further development.
But in technology side, Native C and C++ would be easier to develop, i am start worrying that Microsoft is driving to a wrong way. Not a straight way to success, but a narrow and longer one.
Just keep thinking about what if they put the native-code support for Windows 7.8 (Simple Speaking, would be what if they make Windows Phone 8 Apps (written in Native C) can run well on Windows Phone 7.8 as well without any modification...
A little more works to be done , but think about what they can get from it. People will respect Windows Phone more, recent user will not regret with their 2-years plan as much as they do right now.
There will be some reasonable explanation about the hardware limitation of the current Windows Phone, but just think about that. I don't think it is impossible to make the current kernel support apps from Windows Phone 8.
If they can't do that right now , just be clear that they don't sound like "Windows Phone 7.8 mark the death for the current Windows Phone gen."
Windows Phone lovers won't be hurt since i know they (and i) will purchase a new phone anyway, but with some users, it is a broken deal if they just picked up a Lumia or Titan for 2-years contract and feel like Microsoft just forget about them.
GnatGoSplat said:
They are worried about developers preferring to use the WP8 SDK instead of the obsolete WP7 SDK. Because if they do, the new apps won't run on the old phone.
Valid concern, because if I were a mobile developer, I'd prefer to use the newer SDK. The WP7 user base is not large enough for a new developer to justify learning an obsolete SDK, or an existing developer to faithfully continue using an old SDK just to appease a small base of users which will rapidly diminish. IMO, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Excellent post Wyn6. Well said. For anyone to say that WP7 SDK is dead..
well, they clearly need to change their mind pronto if they want to make money as a developer. I wish WP8 lots of success and think it will be successful, but there is still (and will be) plenty of life in WP7.
Very well said Wyn6. Can you please post it on some more threads here and around other forums where we have headless chickens running around wanting to jump the ship? I've run out of my thanks for today but will make sure they go where they are due. I will be quoting your post in numerous threads I've pulled my hair reading in past 48 hours! Hope you are ok with that
Wyn6 said:
If you think WP7's userbase is small, what does that make WP8's? Non-existent. There are millions of WP7 users. By some accounts 12-16 million. How long do you think it will take for WP8 to reach those numbers?
Let's be mildly optimistic and say that WP8 launches in September and sells 2 million units per month. It would take 6 months (March 2013) before it reaches the low end WP7 number of 12 million phones sold. So, six months from now that would be equal or a bit behind what WP7 has NOW.
But, during those six months WP7 will have sold more phones. But, let's be a little more pessimistic with this outlook. Let's take the mean of the two numbers above (12 and 16) and say WP7 has sold only 14 million units in 18 months. That's almost 800k phones per month. Now, let's say in the 3 months leading up to WP8's launch, WP7 sales drop and it only sells 500k phones per month. That's another 1.5 million units prior to Wp8's launch for a total of 15.5 million phones in the wild.
So, at launch WP8 zero, WP7 15.5 million potential customers for developers. Considering that 80-90% of your code can be ported over, as a dev, why would you NOT code for WP7 first?
I know. I know. Native code this, native code that. Okay, let's look at this. How many apps are on the market place right now that can absolutely and overwhelmingly benefit from native code? I mean, the differences in performance and features would be night and day. I'd wager a small minority of apps.
So, if an app written for WP7 will perform on par with the same app written for WP8, why, again, would you not code for WP7 first? If you didn't do this you cut out millions of potential customers and who knows how much in potential revenue, all to wait for WP8 to build a userbase.
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
Granted Android's user base is much larger, but that was an example. Even if we say that by the time WP8 launches WP7 will only have say... ten million users, that's ten million more than WP8.
I'm going to code NOW for those millions of customers which are actually out there with phones in their hands as opposed to holding off for customers of an OS version that is probably no less than three months out and no less than six months out from building a decent user base. I hope I'm wrong and WP8 explodes like Android did after the "Droid" ad campaign.
But, if I'm not and my hypothetical numbers are even remotely close, I leave you with the old adage... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. WP7 IS the bird in the hand in case y'all missed it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly what i want to say...
Countinuing supporting for Windows Phone 7 right now is the way the developer would do... Since Windows Phone 8/ Windows 8 user base would not reach to the point that WP7.5 has right now.
Wyn6 said:
ICS is on approximately 7% of all Android handsets right now. So, using some of you all's logic, a developer should code strictly for ICS and what it offers and forgo the other 93% of potential customers. That's nigh insane to even think about if you're trying to make any money at all.
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I agree. I know in the video game console market there has been a long history of making new systems incompatible with previous generations of a console. The reason being is console makers wanted software developers to use the new console's new features. If left to their own devices software makers would be a lot slower to code solely for the new hardware. I don't know why smartphones wouldn't be the same.
The people that think they are clever waiting for Windows Phone 8 are going to be disappointed. The OS will have some great new characteristics that the MSFT built in apps will take advantage of on day one but I doubt there will be a deluge of Windows Phone 8 exclusive apps for a loooonnnngggg time. Who doubts this?
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
pillsburydoughman said:
nice post.
except..
you are not a developer. You don't pay 100$ a year for AppHub. You don't have to buy Visual Studio, but even ignoring that your logic is also flawed.
First developing for WP7 platform is not a profitable for the majority of devs. This is a fact, development costs are higher compared to IOS and Android (xcode is free, andriod tools are completely free), and the user base is small. Unless you're one of the few devs making enough money, there's no point supporting something that has negative returns.
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You are right. Those 100,000 apps that school kids have made for WP7 in about 20 months might be better when a developer who pays $100 makes them. You will be alright.
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
nicksti said:
Here is what logic tells me:
They switched to a new way of doing things (kernel) for a reason. Not because they are fickle and like to screw people over.
By switching over to a new way of doing things, this will allow them to do new things that either were not possible on WP7 or were going to be very difficult.
(so far all this makes sense to me)
Therefore, if those two things are logically sound:
Windows Phone 8 will have non-trivial improvements over Windows Phone 7.x. Things that were important enough to do something as publicly damaging as what they did by switching the kernel. Maybe it is a deeper integration (skype), an experience exactly like the PC one (IE 10) or a shared programming platform (silverlight).
How many people in here honestly believe Windows Phone 8 won't have a bunch of wow features in it when it launches that Windows Phone 7.8 will not nor ever have?
How many people believe OEMs will push out new phones with Windows 7.8 on it? Maybe Nokia on some low end Lumia bound for Asia/Africa.
The Android 2.3 vs 4.0 anaolgy really is not the same. If I am looking to port my game to Windows Phone, after that announcement I would have shelved the project. Why code for a single core phone when I can code for a dual?
The "oh I have to wait" critics of WP just got more fuel.
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This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
lqaddict said:
This issue whether this aspect or another of that app will work on both WP7.5 and WP8 is already present with Audible release - voice control is WP8-only affair.
So there must be more things that possible software-wise on WP8 that is impossible on WP7.5 - and it is not the hardware difference.
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I believe people in here understand that if a software dev wanted to he/she could make software that would be compatible on WP7.8 and 8. What they are debating is if someone would. Because in theory they would want to include as many devices as possible.
Are OEMs going to make new handsets with WP7.8? If the answer is no then WP7 is dead. Dead as my goldfish Goldie.
Although I understand why WP8 will not be compatible with existing devices, the bad PR is not exactly helping Microsoft/Nokia. The consolation prize of WP7.8 is not enough to dispel the Osborne Effect that is very likely to occur between now and the time WP8 devices are released.
So let's use this topic to suggest some damage control possibilities based on what's happening NOW, not what Microsoft coulda/shoulda/woulda done (there are plenty of other topics covering the latter).
I think Microsoft/Nokia/carriers should have a trade-in program: trade in a WP7 device for credit off of a new WP8 device. Depending on the trade-in amount, it may or may not stop the bleeding from the Osborne-inflicted wounds, though.
Any other suggestions?
killerb255 said:
I think Microsoft/Nokia/carriers should have a trade-in program: trade in a WP7 device for credit off of a new WP8 device.
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Why? They gave you a Lumia 900 or free. What more do you want?
An expansion of the "Registered Enthusiasts" program that would give us carrier locked stock images of a stripped down WP8 build or a $100 credit from Microsoft upon request.
sitizenx said:
Why? They gave you a Lumia 900 or free. What more do you want?
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Aside from the word "you" in the second sentence, good point. Many people got the Lumia 900 for free with contract, so it's not like they're being totally shafted.
Other suggestions or rebuttals? Keep in mind that the PR is still bad, and people are not exactly thinking "well, I got a free phone, I should be grateful." They're thinking "OMG, M$ jus skrewd mez!"
Look at the big picture.
The market share wasn't going to get any bigger in the next 3 to 5 months, especially with no new flash ship devices on the horizon.
With Windows 8 and this kernel, there will be a surge of developers. Tons of amazing apps, the market share will explode.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
I think they should stop talking to us as if we're retarded. Just that. Come clean and say "we're not updating you to WP8 because we don't want to". Enough with the "kernel re-write" stuff, it doesn't make sense. It's like saying you can't run Windows 8 on a Windows XP PC with enough power to run it because it has a different kernel.
I think trade in is the way forward. Based on IMEI they would know what phones were sold free, subsidized or full price. Pay the trade in value accordingly.
Sent from my Titan using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I am thinking along the lines of put as many goodies in the WP7.8 build and that way the consumers get a taste of the new OS and then go out and buy a new WP8, Not far from what's already in the pipeline I know but just exactly the way I would now treat this situation, Not everyone will be happy, But then again when is everyone ever happy
guilhermedsx said:
I think they should stop talking to us as if we're retarded. Just that. Come clean and say "we're not updating you to WP8 because we don't want to". Enough with the "kernel re-write" stuff, it doesn't make sense. It's like saying you can't run Windows 8 on a Windows XP PC with enough power to run it because it has a different kernel.
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A better analogy would be comparing Windows 9x (95/98/Millennium) with NT (2000/XP/Vista/7/8). Those have different kernels, but can run on the same x86 processors.
Either way, your point has merit. Windows RT is being written for ARM architecture...why not Windows Phone 8? One possibility could be that current hardware is just too dang slow, and we could have another early-gen Android-like situation, where single-core Android phones that aren't optimized (i.e.: rooted, Wi-Fi turned off, kill unused background apps, etc) run slow.
If the problem is more of a political/financial one, rather than a technical one, then I'm sure the fine cooks here at XDA will eventually come up with a way to run a Windows Phone 8 ROM on existing hardware.
AndyFZ1S said:
I am thinking along the lines of put as many goodies in the WP7.8 build and that way the consumers get a taste of the new OS and then go out and buy a new WP8, Not far from what's already in the pipeline I know but just exactly the way I would now treat this situation, Not everyone will be happy, But then again when is everyone ever happy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hopefully they release a complete list of updates to be put in Windows Phone 7.8, if for no other reason than to try and pacify the masses.
...of course this is assuming that the complete list consists of more than just the WP8 UI update...
vetvito said:
Look at the big picture.
The market share wasn't going to get any bigger in the next 3 to 5 months, especially with no new flash ship devices on the horizon.
With Windows 8 and this kernel, there will be a surge of developers. Tons of amazing apps, the market share will explode.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
True, but I wonder if Nokia can afford to wait that long...
The start screen isn't the only update in 7.8; its just the only one we KNOW about. Microsoft didn't completely release WP7.8 to the public because they aren't done with it. So don't jump to conclusions because you might just be happy with what's in the update.
If the problem is more of a political/financial one, rather than a technical one, then I'm sure the fine cooks here at XDA will eventually come up with a way to run a Windows Phone 8 ROM on existing hardware.
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Hoping that the current hardware will work on 8... but they could throw all the hardware under the bus... as we saw from 6.x to 7.
Other than us 'enthusiasts', does the casual phone user really care whether their 900 will work with WP8 (other than the availability - or lack therof - of apps)?
The fact that none of the 6.x programs will work on 7 tells you that usoft is in it for the long haul (either that, or they made a SERIOUS miscalculation)! I know... it's a total re-vamp of the software.. had to do it... is 8 going to be as drastic of a change?
At least they are saying 'WP7 programs might have to have a 'minor' tweak' to run on 8... will give WP7 users some hope.
(I'm on the edge of getting a 900 (still running my tilt 2), but I'm not happy about some of the aps that I use on the t2 aren't available for WP7). The developers say 'they are looking into it'...
Tim
Nokia has done trade-ins before. I remember them doing it for at least the last 2 years.
At least this would be an option for those are complaining that they are stuck with the same phone for the remaining of their contract. Plus, it would help generate some momentum when the new devices are introduced. Microsoft is going to need to WP8 users right away and cannot wait multiple years to reach 2%. So give people who were loyal a discount when the phones are launched.
Microsoft, Nokia, and others could very well do nothing like when WP7 replaced Windows Mobile. We also know that there were large numbers of people who left permanently when this happened.
eeeelliott said:
The start screen isn't the only update in 7.8; its just the only one we KNOW about. Microsoft didn't completely release WP7.8 to the public because they aren't done with it. So don't jump to conclusions because you might just be happy with what's in the update.
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Actually, Microsoft have apparently said that WP7.8 is the start screen only. See links below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEB8CC228C5239441&v=fTNHgfy7lY8&feature=player_detailpage#t=5052s
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windowsphone75/windows-phone-78-preview-143476
tim051 said:
The fact that none of the 6.x programs will work on 7 tells you that usoft is in it for the long haul (either that, or they made a SERIOUS miscalculation)! I know... it's a total re-vamp of the software.. had to do it... is 8 going to be as drastic of a change?
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Click to collapse
No. WP7 programs will still work on WP8.
tim051 said:
Hoping that the current hardware will work on 8... but they could throw all the hardware under the bus... as we saw from 6.x to 7.
Other than us 'enthusiasts', does the casual phone user really care whether their 900 will work with WP8 (other than the availability - or lack therof - of apps)?
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No.
The following letter was written by one of Hong Kong WP lovers. After posting for minutes. There're already 2000 votes. If you want Microsoft to Bring new features of WP8 that can be supported by WP7.5 hardware to WP7.8, please support our works! Join us! Speak Loudly to Microsoft!!
and here's the jointly letter (link re-newed) Please delete space!! :
http : //windowsphone.uservoice.co m/forums/101801-feature-suggestions/suggestions/2945071-bring-new-features-of-wp8-that-can-be-supported-by
and Here's the letter(by Simon Luk @ WeLoveWP.HK Administrator) :
20th June, 2012 has been one of the darkest days in the history of Windows Phone.
On 20th June, 2012, Microsoft announced Windows Phone 8, the next generation Windows Phone platform. At the same time, Microsoft broke the bad news to existing Windows Phone users – WP8 will not be available for existing WP devices to upgrade. Instead, Microsoft showed their “commitment” to current WP users by delivering WP7.8, which is just basically WP7.5 with the whole new Start Screen of WP8.
Are current users satisfied? Furious WP users are shouting in the Internet. Microsoft, what do you think?
Microsoft, you might think that the existing WP user base is just so small, so you can dumb us anytime you think it’s appropriate. You might think making current WP users angry is no big deal because WP8 must make a huge success, attracting all the consumers to buy your devices. Please, Microsoft, stop and think. Who are the existing WP users? We, the current WP users, are your loyal customers and fans. What you are doing with WP7.8 - barely adding a new Start Screen – is just an insult to us.
Being WP fans, we know that WP8 needs a new kernel. We absolutely understand the fact that our existing devices cannot get WP8 due to huge work for kernel and drivers re-writing. On the new kernel for WP8, we, WP fans, are totally on your side. I am sure most of the existing users, who wish WP having a better future, can accept the fact that WP8 apps cannot be supported in WP7.8 due to kernel incompatibility issues. However, it does not mean that it justifies for WP7.8 just having the new Start Screen of WP8.
Although they are still not officially announced, many features of WP8, including IE10, Skydrive Integration, Xbox Music & Video, DataSmart, whole-new range of languages and IME supports, etc, have been revealed by different parties. Many existing WP users will love to have these new features on their WP7.8 devices. We believe that some of the above features do not require high grade hardware. Indeed, Microsoft, we can assure you that you will **** most if not all WP users off, if you deliberately leave these “upgradable” features off from our WP7.8 devices.
We are your loyal WP supporters. We were always happy to introduce our friends to buy WP7.5 devices. Provided that WP7.8 only brings the new Start Screen without other new features from WP8 which are supported by existing hardware, we just cannot help but tell our dear friends – Do not buy a WP. Word of mouth is of paramount importance in selling smartphones. Please do not embarrass us and yourself. Act quickly and give confidence to the existing WP users; and we will let the whole world know WP is always worth buying.
Microsoft, please bring new features of WP8 that are supported by existing WP7.5 hardware to WP7.8. Do not let your loyal WP fans down.
Simon Luk
Administrator
WeLoveWP.HK
+1
boxcar8028 said:
+1
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thx for your support!!
You drop the f bomb and think someone is going to take you seriously?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA
JaiCameron said:
You drop the f bomb and think someone is going to take you seriously?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA
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It's not the OP, you do know that?
Also, it would read a word starting with a "p" here.
Though I'm not a WP user, I fully support this cause and hope that you'll be able to make this work out!
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2
I support
Totally support.
For the lazy ones:
http://windowsphone.uservoice.com/f...-new-features-of-wp8-that-can-be-supported-by
Also: Signed!
yep.. should support!!
ChrisKringel said:
For the lazy ones:
http://windowsphone.uservoice.com/f...-new-features-of-wp8-that-can-be-supported-by
Also: Signed!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Took 3 votes from somewhere else and gave it to this. Great idea!
Oh cry me a river! Microsoft hasn't released any details regarding what WP8 features are going to be on 7.8 and you're all going ape-****. Calm down and at least wait for an official statement from Microsoft. Threatening to tell others not to buy Windows Phones, seriously? Based on what? Internet chatter? That letter by Simon Luk looks like a letter to Paul McCartney begging him not to quit the Beatles. I think this community is better than that so please, practice some restraint.
fatclue said:
Oh cry me a river! Microsoft hasn't released any details regarding what WP8 features are going to be on 7.8 and you're all going ape-****. Calm down and at least wait for an official statement from Microsoft. Threatening to tell others not to buy Windows Phones, seriously? Based on what? Internet chatter? That letter by Simon Luk looks like a letter to Paul McCartney begging him not to quit the Beatles. I think this community is better than that so please, practice some restraint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This.
Pretty sure the admin from WeLoveWP.HK is correct in that 7.8 only gets new tile sizes. On the other hand, it is unlikely that this petition will convince Microsoft to add additional features for current generation phones.
I do hope somebody will come up with an acceptable solution. Microsoft is not in a good enough position to anger its userbase as it is not that big to begin with.
I provided my 3 votes, even though I switched to Android from WP7 a few months ago. I kinda guessed the new kernel meant that the current Mango phones weren't going to get upgraded.
Honestly, a whole OS upgrade isn't necessary for the phones, as long as some kind of incentive program could be available to encourage devs to attempt to make apps that weren't hardware-limited to run on both WP8 and WP7. Stuff like Instagram, Flipboard, simple games, etc.
Edit: Oh, and one thing that would've made me stick with WP7 longer would have been a simple Webkit-compatible browser. Half the mobile websites I visited wouldn't display properly because the browser didn't support Webkit. Extremely annoying.
We don't even know if the start screen is all that's in 7.8... We don't know all the features in Apollo, so how would we know all of them in 7.8? There's still a lot of time until the release.
I support !
Sent from my TITAN X310e using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
already voted with 6 votes.
thanks in advance
Signed too ! Please post it on Facebook and tweeter !!! !!!
+1
...has any of you guys got any confirmed information about the final content of update WP7.8 and which devices are going to get it or not? No? Then don't you think that this kind of action is a bit premature and a bit stupid?