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Hi Chainfire,
Thank you for the clarification in the last thread on the different Qualcomm processor variants.
Admittedly I am still a little dubious about your specs because I'm sure I saw a datasheet for the 7200a that stated it was 90nm - however I know that you have been in this game for while (ROMs et al) so I will accept them and verify them when I get a moment)
I also agree that the TP2 did feel snappier than the TP1.
However your argument concerning the TP being a repackaged Tytn2 is a very weak one for the reasons you specified and many others.
The TP is clearly a different class of device in comparison to the Tytn 2 and definitely doesn't feel repackaged.
Also the phones have not simply been repackaged over the last few years, I've had most of them with considerable improvements in each until we reached the Qualcomm era pre snapdragon...
Also I'm not a fan for the 7200 series qualcomm processors for all types of video related reasons.
The snapdragon (also qualcomm) demonstrates innovation and shows promise as well as potential.
On another tangent I'm really loving the snapdragon capabilities they've demonstrated runing android in the netbook market at the moment too (720p hardware encoding and decoding according another engadget and gizmodo.
As usual - Time will tell - it never lies!
Question - Doesn't anyone else feel a little betrayed at the rate of hardware/software innovation in WM products at the moment?
I surely can't be the only one.
I've used these devices for ages and after seeing things like the Palm Pre and IPhone I feel a little frustrated.
qazzi76 said:
Hi Chainfire,
Thank you for the clarification in the last thread on the different Qualcomm processor variants.
Admittedly I am still a little dubious about your specs because I'm sure I saw a datasheet for the 7200a that stated it was 90nm - however I know that you have been in this game for while (ROMs et al) so I will accept them and verify them when I get a moment)
I also agree that the TP2 did feel snappier than the TP1.
However your argument concerning the TP being a repackaged Tytn2 is a very weak one for the reasons you specified and many others.
The TP is clearly a different class of device in comparison to the Tytn 2 and definitely doesn't feel repackaged.
Also the phones have not simply been repackaged over the last few years, I've had most of them with considerable improvements in each until we reached the Qualcomm era pre snapdragon...
Also I'm not a fan for the 7200 series qualcomm processors for all types of video related reasons.
The snapdragon (also qualcomm) demonstrates innovation and shows promise as well as potential.
On another tangent I'm really loving the snapdragon capabilities they've demonstrated runing android in the netbook market at the moment too (720p hardware encoding and decoding according another engadget and gizmodo.
As usual - Time will tell - it never lies!
Question - Doesn't anyone else feel a little betrayed at the rate of hardware/software innovation in WM products at the moment?
I surely can't be the only one.
I've used these devices for ages and after seeing things like the Palm Pre and IPhone I feel a little frustrated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why has this been brough back to life? DaveShaw closed the last thread, can't you respect that and leave it for a bit?
No clearly I can't.
While the TP2 isn't that bad a device - if all else fails I will probably end up with one - There is an underlying issue here that needs to be discussed and addressed that isn't only applicable to the Touch Pro 2.
And further more I'm not offending anyone I'm encouraging discussion that needs to be encouraged.
I've been here since 2004 and been using these devices before 2004 and am seriously wondering what's happening with WM in the industry lately.
- WM7 promised the world but has yet to see the light of day.
- We still don't have properly implemented VGA recording in our devices
- Rich application experience is only available through 3rd party programs and pluggins when it should be available at the OS level.
- Why on earth do some programmers know how to manipulate the hardware at OS level better than Microsoft, the people that make the OS (Example Point UI)
Seriously what is going on here?
Have you seen the Palm Pre?
Have you seen the Iphone?
Have you seen Android Cupcake?
What do we have?
Microsoft has given us a half a hearted attempt at an OS refresh (6.5) and embarassingly all our rich app experiences are provided by third parties.
Why couldn't HTC release Rhodium level hardware with Android?
As for processor specs:
From the MSM7200A datasheet that I "absolutely don't have":
7200: 90 nm CMOS (15 x 15 x 1.4 mm)
7200A: 65 nm CMOS (15 x 15 x 1.4 mm)
Some more interesting changes in non-A vs A are that the A has 24bpp display support for EBI2, and the memory is clocked at 166mhz instead of 128mhz (aside from the obvious 528mhz (533 officially) addition) and also uses a different GPS core. I assume all the latter is also in the 7201A but I cannot verify that, so...
As to the repackaging thing, perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not feel like the TP is a repackaged TyTN II, nor do I really feel the TP2 is a repackaged TP. But, if you say the latter you should also say the former - the thread starter only did the latter. Even if for one you may feel instinctively that it isn't repackaged and for the other you do, it's either both or neither, from my viewpoint.
I agree there have been many improvements, but most of them were not in the 'bare' hardware. And that was the discussion point of the thread starter, who stated in one of his posts that we were not talking about software. Obviously, casing, screens, etc have improvements as well as the software.
Again, I love the TP2. The first time I played with one was love at first sight.
As for video, the 7200 series is more than capable - just not supported very well. With fully optimized drivers and software, video playback should be much better than it is right now. Its the old trick of unleashing a little bit more potential with every device release to get people to upgrade. Sound business model, but obviously us techs frown at it.
As for snapdragon, I agree it has got awesome capabilities, but there are some caveats (note that I already played with snapdragon devices and it felt really fast to me... much faster than TP2).
Caveat #1: How will it stack up versus the Tegra? I've also seen Tegra (test) devices in action up close (no touching, though, and it was bigger than my pocket) and it did seem extremely awesome.
Caveat #2: It's still Qualcomm. While HTC is partially to blame for the whole mess the past few years, so is Qualcomm. Both of these companies continuously let us down performance-wise. Will the old dogs learn new tricks? Will major corporations ever actually care about their customers? Will they ever deliver what they promise? We are talking about HTC and Qualcomm here, and due to past experience I wouldn't put the chances of that very high.
Of course, Microsoft also has a big role to play in optimizing WM. It's a dog. But it's improving... I do have high hopes for WM7.
Do I feel betrayed? I don't think that's the correct word, but yes, I am disappointed (even if I do love the TP2 ). I think over time things will get better though. WM being the slow dog that it is, with the latest hardware and some effort it should still be technically possible to top iPhone performance by a large margin.
I can easily understand your frustration though. I am myself heavily invested in WM (my livelyhood actually depends on it) so I am also frustrated. It can be much better!
Hi Chainfire,
Oh - I see... Got you.
So the A supports higher bit resolution displays and has faster memory!
Ok I stand corrected about the MSM7200 series processors.
Somehow I'm not surprised the hardware is capable of good Video - I just haven't experienced it.. yet.. - But I also put that down to poor colaboration (possibly deliberately) on MS, HTC and Qualcomms part)
I also have been wondering about the Tegra but I see it taking ages to come to market based on NVidia's PDA GPU efforts before which eventually materialised in Dells axim x51v (PDA) initially and then imates 6150(Phone) ages after anouncement.
Obviously this could change.
I agree the Tegra is a worthy force to be reckoned with if implemented correctly - I unfortunately have only seen working examples of the Tegra on Youtube but what I have seen has been very very impressive GUI wise.
The Snapdragon looks kinda crazy too with its 1.3ghz potential when its already flying at 1ghz on the TG01 and the whole netbook angle/implementation of snapdragon.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what WM7 has to offer although I imagine it's must be a little difficult for you at the mo with the whole Android and apple app store gaining ground and making their mark in industry.
Anyhow I wish you good luck with your WM based business projects/ventures.
Maybe tp2 use msm7201A http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=522460
That would be interesting, it is listed as 7200A everywhere on the net. But as some people already have one, perhaps they should check the about screen?
Mine still not in...
EDIT: Checked FCC pics, that one indeed seems to have 7201A. Wonder if the EU version will also have this or have 7200A. We'll know soon enough I guess!
Chainfire said:
That would be interesting, it is listed as 7200A everywhere on the net. But as some people already have one, perhaps they should check the about screen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
UK version 7200A-528MHz, according the the About screen.
Hmm, that makes it likely the US versions will be MSM7201A and the rest of the world will get MSM7200A... Interesting!
out of interest im in uk and mine has the 7200A...
I made this poll last time, but this was around when the news of WP7 was just getting out. I'm sure that from then and now, we've learned a lot more about the OS and MS has released a lot more info regarding the OS. So with that being said, I was just curious to see if there were any change of hearts.
Vote on!
I plan on buying a windows phone whenever some nice looking hardware comes to Verizon. I might have to wait a while since ill have to buy one at full price because my upgrade isn't until 2012.
Never will I ever choose anything besides Windows 7 or their webcam for my products.
Ad notifications? What kind of nonsense is this?
And here is the real nail in the coffin:
"At launch, Windows Phone 7 will not have the ability to cut, copy, and paste. It will recognize telephone numbers and addresses, but Microsoft says the majority of users don't need 'cut, copy, and paste'."
With that attitude, do I trust this company for phones? No. The iPhone 2G had more features than this!
I hope they die in the mobile arena. Their efforts have been haphazard and poor. If it does turn out to be good (doubtful since I've used Windows Mobile since the Blackjack) I don't see anything it offers that Android or iPhone doesn't already do, and better.
Fun phones are the iPhone and Android systems. They're also very good for work as well.
Blackberry handles business as usual.
And Microsoft, your best move was investing in Apple.
Dratini said:
Never will I ever choose anything besides Windows 7 or their webcam for my products.
Ad notifications? What kind of nonsense is this?
And here is the real nail in the coffin:
"At launch, Windows Phone 7 will not have the ability to cut, copy, and paste. It will recognize telephone numbers and addresses, but Microsoft says the majority of users don't need 'cut, copy, and paste'."
With that attitude, do I trust this company for phones? No. The iPhone 2G had more features than this!
I hope they die in the mobile arena. Their efforts have been haphazard and poor. If it does turn out to be good (doubtful since I've used Windows Mobile since the Blackjack) I don't see anything it offers that Android or iPhone doesn't already do, and better.
Fun phones are the iPhone and Android systems. They're also very good for work as well.
Blackberry handles business as usual.
And Microsoft, your best move was investing in Apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sounds like a guy who is been around for a long time !!?. I respect your opinion but it is windows mobile what made this forum what it is today. So let it die?
It depends what kind of user you are, I have always been a fan of windows because its customizable, what is for me an added value. Now with the coming of mobile7, I dont know, but I´m sure we can support and make the OS better around here.
Iphone is in my opinion a hyped phone (especially the iphone4) and clearly is not as good as the previous versions because of its hardware malfunction.
Respecting Andriod, I like the phones and they are great but still I´m staying old fashioned and try and stick to WinMo.
As you can notice I will buy a phone with the new OS because I´m just curious and its flawless integrated with windows platforms in private and corporate perspective. What i believe is the advantage of Microsoft software.
I will buy a WP7 device in Germany as soon a device similar to the HD2 is released. For me are a display around 4 inch, arround 448 MB RAM, at least 16GB flash memory important. An amoled display is prefered.
Why WP7? As a developer I have with Silverlight much more fun and I have no fun to flash my device regularry to get the rom to a quality level that should be out of box. Is's a shame but big thanks to this board for making the good HD2 roms
Just waiting on what T-Mobile USA will bring us
Dratini said:
With that attitude, do I trust this company for phones? No. The iPhone 2G had more features than this!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure it did.
Main difference between WP7 and other mobile OSes, that it is being complex. iOS has just core stuff - kernel, some core APIs and few built-in apps like mail or safari. Android adds some wannabe support for integrating facebook, today widgets. WP7 comes as latest one with around 2 year development as of now, including full facebook integration at launch, combining and integrating your contacts into facebook. This was just an example, that WP7 is way more complex system, than any other mobile OS we have now. It allows integration into hubs, ... while all you can do on iOS is just add your icon on app launcher. No integration into core apps.
Also the biggest fun will begin shortly. Possibility to develop for PC-Xbox360-WP7 with one source code (and just optimizing user input for mouse, joystick or touchscreen) is f...in promising. And Silverlight, C# and XNA are awesome to play and create with, compared to native coding.
I will be getting WP7 as soon as I get the opportunity. Love the UI (I'd just say more colors into icons in the applist). Love the possibilities. Love MS!
OndraSter said:
Sure it did.
Main difference between WP7 and other mobile OSes, that it is being complex. iOS has just core stuff - kernel, some core APIs and few built-in apps like mail or safari. Android adds some wannabe support for integrating facebook, today widgets. WP7 comes as latest one with around 2 year development as of now, including full facebook integration at launch, combining and integrating your contacts into facebook. This was just an example, that WP7 is way more complex system, than any other mobile OS we have now. It allows integration into hubs, ... while all you can do on iOS is just add your icon on app launcher. No integration into core apps.
Also the biggest fun will begin shortly. Possibility to develop for PC-Xbox360-WP7 with one source code (and just optimizing user input for mouse, joystick or touchscreen) is f...in promising. And Silverlight, C# and XNA are awesome to play and create with, compared to native coding.
I will be getting WP7 as soon as I get the opportunity. Love the UI (I'd just say more colors into icons in the applist). Love the possibilities. Love MS!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what?!!
xbox-wp7-pc game integration is a possibility? but how is a phone going to be as capable as the three cores plus graphics core of a 360?
As soon as Sprint gets a killer 4G enabled one. Bamn! I'm there.
Gota get on the leading edge again and start promoting the thing to my friends/family/co-workers/etc.
theomni said:
what?!!
xbox-wp7-pc game integration is a possibility? but how is a phone going to be as capable as the three cores plus graphics core of a 360?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, WP7 has a lower target resolution than XBox and PCs. You also can use a lower resolution than the native resolution of WP7 and the phone will resize the image "for free" using a dedicated chip. To target the different input formats, you have to tweak the code and use conditional compilation (like #If Xbox; #If WP7; #If Windows). If you want to utilize the full potential of each platform, there may be many conditional compilation instructions, but it is possible. Depending on the architecture, the main game logic can remain the same and does not need (many) changes.
Ima stick with it. WP7 is nice.
Yep, just as Reihnold described it.
The main logic and core is the same, you just optimalize it for different input and ofc slower HW (but with coming Hummingbird etc we will see reaching Xbox on WVGA screen in few years I bet). You disable some cool effects etc, but you do that with those #If Xbox360 fxRainbow.Enable = true; #Endif etc, so nothing huge. Compared to Linux-Android it is something quite easy. Mostly because of awesome IDE.
Wouldn't consider anything else.
I will definitely buy one. Love MS products and services and using them all integrated on my phone is the biggest thing they could ever made!
Cloud is the future
I'd be more interested to know what percentage of people would switch to wp7 in an iphone and/or android forum really. That to me is a better indicator of how well wp7 will do at launch.
I eventually want to switch, but ill do it further down the line when the OS matures.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I voted for sticking with WP7, all the latest videos I've seen show how super smooth it is so I wont be switching to clunky Andriod anytime soon
I am waiting to actually see how well the office, RDP and other apps integrate into windows before I pull the trigger on one. I really could care less about facebook integration or twitter or any social networking. Sure I use facebook, but I want to keep my contacts seperate from my social networking. I want a business device first. Not to say I won't try one out, but I intend on keeping my Tilt2 around unless they release a WM6.5 handset with a keyboard and a faster processor and more RAM! like that will happen...
And if it comes to switching platforms, android is next in line. No apple products ever in my house.
kdj67f said:
No apple products ever in my house.
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Click to collapse
I second that
I am so ready to purchase one of Windows Phone 7 phones! Why? please... for those ppl who say WP7 is not as great as their beloved WM 6 series, you gotta let your ego go. And yes, i have HD2. So this is a customer with experiences with hacking my device and use cooked ROMs. And yes i hate using cooked ROMs. Althogh i use cooked ROMs that looks like stock version atm. But i am planning to purchase it in this holiday or wait for htc to announce HD3 the beast! I really want my phone to have 1.5ghz or something downgraded clocked duo cpu.
I'm on T-Mobile USA and these two devices are both coming out next month. I've had (and loved) Android since the HTC Magic came out last year. I love the MyTouch for it's FFC and the newest gen procs. However, I'm pretty drawn to the HD7 for it's new OS and large SLCD, however disappointed in lack of FFC (regardless of how little I would realistically use it), and it's first gen procs. It's got the same "guts" as my N1, but it's runs so well from the demos I've seen this week.
Anyone else out there with the same dilemma? Which is better?
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
sort of, it has the adreno 205 gpu on it.
predator290 said:
sort of, it has the adreno 205 gpu on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know the myTouch has it. Are you referring to the HD7? Because if you are and it's true, I think I found my next phone
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
hmarcus said:
I'm on T-Mobile USA and these two devices are both coming out next month. I've had (and loved) Android since the HTC Magic came out last year. I love the MyTouch for it's FFC and the newest gen procs. However, I'm pretty drawn to the HD7 for it's new OS and large SLCD, however disappointed in lack of FFC (regardless of how little I would realistically use it), and it's first gen procs. It's got the same "guts" as my N1, but it's runs so well from the demos I've seen this week.
Anyone else out there with the same dilemma? Which is better?
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am in the same boat as you. I have a nexus one and have loved it, but I am really liking WP7 so far. I believe that with such high minimum specs, the OS will see some nice apps and games in the near future.
I am about 90% sure that I am going to switch, I just have to decide between the HD7 and the Dell pro slide phone.
according to a couple sources the hd7 uses the msm8250 which has the adreno 205 gpu on it. same one as the g2.
diablos991 said:
I am in the same boat as you. I have a nexus one and have loved it, but I am really liking WP7 so far. I believe that with such high minimum specs, the OS will see some nice apps and games in the near future.
I am about 90% sure that I am going to switch, I just have to decide between the HD7 and the Dell pro slide phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya the XBL game demos were nice. This and the Zune integration is what draws me to the platform. Since I have an N1 now I haven't been too concerned about updates, however MS will be starting on top of all that is great.
As far as the Dell; I love everything about it especially the gorilla glass, it's just that KB doesn't look like it's worth the added weight and thickness to the phone. However I saw a sign of a FFC on the Dell unbranded VP so that could be interesting.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
There are alot of information flying about.
Someone contacted HTC asking what processor, and was told the MSM processor, though, Microsofts webpage states QSD8250.
Someone else contacted HTC about the screen, and was told it had a standard TFT screen (Slashgear also states this).
At the end of the day, whether or not the myTouch will have a superior CPU doesn't matter by the fact that it runs android, games are written to be compatible with low end android sets, meaning if the myTouch had a tegra, games would still look crap.
The Galaxy S is a good example. It's GPU pushes about 80million triangles per sec, compare this with iPhone4's 28million.... now show me ANY game on Android that looks better than that on iOS? And the thing is I highly doubt there are much, if any, games on iOS that use half of its power. (Epic citadel and an upcoming iOS game called Aralon shows off what the 3GS/iPhone4/iPad can do. Not sure how much triangles/poylgons its pushing tho).
The Adreno200 pushes about 22million, which isn't a big difference compared with the iPhone, so games would be comparable.
There is a rumour that Android 3.0 will bring in minimum hardware requirements to reduce fragmentation, we'll see.
Cruzer1 said:
There are alot of information flying about.
Someone contacted HTC asking what processor, and was told the MSM processor, though, Microsofts webpage states QSD8250.
Someone else contacted HTC about the screen, and was told it had a standard TFT screen (Slashgear also states this).
At the end of the day, whether or not the myTouch will have a superior CPU doesn't matter by the fact that it runs android, games are written to be compatible with low end android sets, meaning if the myTouch had a tegra, games would still look crap.
The Galaxy S is a good example. It's GPU pushes about 80million triangles per sec, compare this with iPhone4's 28million.... now show me ANY game on Android that looks better than that on iOS? And the thing is I highly doubt there are much, if any, games on iOS that use half of its power. (Epic citadel and an upcoming iOS game called Aralon shows off what the 3GS/iPhone4/iPad can do. Not sure how much triangles/poylgons its pushing tho).
The Adreno200 pushes about 22million, which isn't a big difference compared with the iPhone, so games would be comparable.
There is a rumour that Android 3.0 will bring in minimum hardware requirements to reduce fragmentation, we'll see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very true, while I like to think of myself as an HTC/Android fanboy, however I always have to lend Android its faults. Gaming and media are huge and Android more or less fails in these areas. Games are horrid, though Angry Birds is always fun. Games just don't look finished or just look like the crappy 2005 Java versions on like a Moto RAZR. In fact, looking at my apps on my N1, almost all of them are apps just to make my phone run smoother or look better ie setCPU, LCD density changer, ASTRO, Ti Backup etc. That's not to say I don't like games, it's just that there's not too great of a collection when you compare to iOS or the upcoming games for WP7.
And if the HD7 has the G2's proc and an SLCD screen like the Desire HD, it will be even more amazing in my eyes. All I'd want is HSPA+, however, that part is MS's fault.
hmarcus said:
Ya the XBL game demos were nice. This and the Zune integration is what draws me to the platform. Since I have an N1 now I haven't been too concerned about updates, however MS will be starting on top of all that is great.
As far as the Dell; I love everything about it especially the gorilla glass, it's just that KB doesn't look like it's worth the added weight and thickness to the phone. However I saw a sign of a FFC on the Dell unbranded VP so that could be interesting.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only concerns I have with the dell is the keyboard quality and thickness. I would have to hold the unit and play around with it first. I really hope that the Hd7 has the updated processor, but I really doubt it will.
All will be revealed soon though.
Same issue with me, I have loved Android for a while now, however WP7 looks so attractive, HSPA+ is not an issue because:
1. My area doesn't have HSPA+
2. T-Mobile states that all devices running standard 3g will also notice a significant improvement to their speeds as well, which is great as well
Really I made up my mind on the HD7, I saw the apps on the zune market and a lot of em weren't that great, however I know I have to wait... I see though that the WP7 marketplace has increased in apps, so I think I might just get the HD7, or try both devices.
I would go with the HD7. Try something new and the games are WP7 are fantastic.
It definitely has its shortcomings, but the most important ones are coming.
I take no credit for this, ita a great article i came across that made the most sense in a while related to hardware :
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011...erately-need-more-powerful-devices-this-year/
As you have probably already noticed I was at Mobile World Congress this week so I had the opportunity to play around with some of the latest and most powerful handsets ever created. This year was obviously dominated by Google’s Android platform which took center stage at the convention with essentially every OEMs demonstrating or unveiling products running the immensely successful OS. What does it have to do with Windows Phone 7 hardware ? Well if there’s one thing that really garbed my attention it is the fact that not a single Android device I played with was as snappy and smooth as the Samsung Omnia 7 device I had in my pocket (or any iPhone model). Yes some of the devices on display were running non finalized software and probably hardware too but this has already been the case with retail devices like the Galaxy S and Desire HD which feature more powerful hardware than all the currently released WP7 devices.
I will repeat what I have been saying for a while: Android is the new Windows Mobile. OEMs want to differentiate their the products and one of the best way to do this is to use the latest and greatest chipsets, screen technology or other fancy hardware components. But as an end user, why should I care about the newest Exynos 4210, TI OMAP 4430, Tegra 2 if it can’t provide me with the same user experience as the now nearly 3 years old QSD8250 found in my Windows Phone 7 device? Similar to the old Windows Mobile days; OEMs are using Android’s “openness” as a test bed for their new CPUs and chipsets and are pumping out devices with crazy hardware specifications to show themselves in the press and sell device purely based on check list features: Dual-Core CPU ? Check. XX Mpix camera ? Check. 3D Cameras? Check. Huge Screen? Check etc. The issue here is that device manufacturers are more interested in time to market so optimizing the software to work with the hardware is just an afterthought. It’s not Google’s job to code the driver for the Samsung Exynos or for TI’s OMAP4. Google doesn’t even want to get the browser to use GPU acceleration for smoother scrolling and panning so the device manufacturers shouldn’t even count on the big G to give them any kind meaningful help in this department (Samsung has apparently implemented GPU acceleration to the browser in some unreleased Galaxy S firmware builds).
HTC has apparently learned the lesson a long time ago and has instead decided to milk the same SoC for while and instead just improve it’s Sense software layer every time it releases a new batch of devices. The end user is in both cases being presented with less than optimal solutions / offerings: On one hand you have new hardware that goes totally unused (Samsung, LG) and on the other you are buying exactly the same hardware but with an updated software layer (HTC).
Now let’s go back to Windows Phone 7 for minute. Take a Google Nexus One/ HTC Desire and compare it to the similarly speced WP7 devices. Which one is the snappiest and offers the smoothest UX? Same for the HTC HD2 running WM6.5 compared to the same device running Windows Phone 7. Microsoft has several big advantage with WP7 compared to Android. First, the have enforced strict HW guidelines and are currently only supporting Qualcomm’s Snapdragon SoCs and their Adreno GPUs. Secondly the Adreno GPUs are closely related to the Xenos GPU found in the Xbox360 so the company was already quite a bit familiar with architecture. Thirdly they control the APIs (Direct3D Mobile through DXGI and probably Direct2D for IE9 Mobile) unlike Android which relies on OpenGL ES and the drivers developed by the chipset manufacturers. The Windows Phone 7 ecosystem is like a console ecosystem with one set of drivers and APIs all controlled and certified by Microsoft while Android is more like a PC ecosystem filled with tons of different hardware configurations, driver versions controlled by nobody (Qualcomm even told me that OEMs don’t really bother including the latest drivers in the devices just because they are more concerned by the shipping date of the handset than with the end user experience. For example, as of right now the SE Xperia Play is the Android handset that has the latest Adreno 205 drivers).
Who would have thought that Microsoft would be able to easily port IE9 (which requires a DX10 GPU on the desktop) to Windows Phone 7 which only runs on a relatively old Adreno 200 GPU (DX9 capable) ins such a short time? Now take a look at the current state of the Webkit on Android: Yes it’s blazing fast at loading web pages on those super powerful handsets but after that the UX is simply anticlimactic because of the lack of HW acceleration. This is supposed to be fixed in Honeycomb on the tablets right? But where’s the smartphone version? From what I have seen at MWC the touch responsiveness of the Android 3.0 tablets varies greatly from one device maker to another. So once again Google’s lack of control of the hardware and drivers is going to hurt the end user.
This is not to say that Windows Phone 7 should be stuck with the current QSD8250. New high-end WP7 devices are going to be announced later this year because technology evolves at a rapid pace and Microsoft will obviously want to support higher resolution screens and video formats (and yes they are working on new Chassis but the Nokia partnership which was decided only last Thursday changed some of the plans), more graphically intensive 3D games and applications but the point here is that they are in no rush to do this because they can squeeze a lot more out of the first generation Snapdragon SoC than what is possible with Android. Everything I just said so far also applies to Apple’s iPhone which is quite similar to Windows Phone 7 and I personally think that there’s no need for Apple to switch to a dual-core SoC for the upcoming iPhone 5 given that the A4 is still powerful enough for 99% of the tasks (but if they do then you can be sure that they will have the software to take advantage of it). Android is obviously a really great OS that I enjoy using it on a daily basis thanks to all the features it supports but Google should really stop the madness and take over control of what should or shouldn’t be done on the platform. OEMs are loving it right now because they are free to do whatever they see fit but I really think that it will hurt the platform in the long run when people start to realise that they paying for hardware that most of the time isn’t used all or just paying for a software update (HTC..).
What Windows Phone 7 is in desperate need of is software updates filled with differentiating features and thrid-party access to more APIs so they developers can create more exciting and advanced applications.
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Discuss...
Pretty much the facts.... I mean that is just an astounding article... spot on.
As an Android user who is otherwise impartial to OS wars, I wholeheartedly agree. For months now, I've been telling people that Android reminds me of the old Windows Mobile. Every WM7 device I have ever played with has exhibited exemplary smoothness and snappyness compared to any Android handset you care to name. It's a shame because Android is really good otherwise.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
IMO, although it would be nice to have, WP7 doesnt have to go overboard like Android is doing when it comes to specs as to dual core cpu's, 3d displays and such. I believe that they should improve hardware based on features such as front facing camera to add video chat functinality, perhaps a video output via 3.5mm jack (since requiring hdmi might be pushing it a little across all oem's) etc.
Im positive that if they bump up the cpu to support at least second gen snapdragon with its 45nm architecture, improved 205 Adreno GPU and much faster clock per clock compared to first gen, i have no doubt that besides the inmensly graphical stressing situations, WP7 would run circles round any dual core Android device since it being used to its full potential and proper optimization and drivers makes it not have a elephant on its back to carry
I think it is a given that we will eventually see more powerful Qualcomm SoCs show up in WP7 devices, and possibly other manufacturers' SoCs. This generation might become the "budget" chassis in 2012...Who knows?
What I do like, and want it to remain the same, is the fact that Microsoft needs to certify whatever hardware specs is used, so when updates are pushed out, Microsoft wouldn't need to run to each manufacturer and ask for drivers...
I'm sold where can I buy one? I kid, I kid. I have a Focus.
One thing is for sure, the overall opinion of the phone UI is excellent for all the listed reasons. Thanks for the post.
I compare this current experience to my experience with Windows 7 rc. Much like the day I installed Windows 7 to my lowly Dual Core (e2150, 2gb, 7200 HDD), it was good but not great in terms of speed, quick but not fast. Then, the cycle moved on and new hardware at low prices came into my life...
Now at Quad Core, 8 gb, Dual GPU, SSD, it is like driving a Buggati Veyron, downhill, on a 5 lane speedway, with no traffic. Life is instantaneous, the only limit...my ability to click as fast as it acts. ha! It happens as if I had on a thinking helmet and it sucked the idea out of my head!
I can only imagine wp7 on the set of phones that will come out...8 months...1 to 2 years from today...oh yeaaaaaa
close your eyes, think about it. Did you think about it? Think again, that's right. Amazing.
Wasn't that nice? Ahhhh yeaaaaaa
With dual core and a 2x faster GPU...oh my...it will get smoother and faster...hard to imagine and exciting at the same time. :splooge:
All in due time, I am happy with my phone today and happily have put my development time into other projects and not Wm6.5. Like this one from Johnny http://hackaday.com/2011/02/09/low-cost-video-chat-robot/
The current WP7 devices are fine. Just make sure you get one with 16G Storage and 512+ RAM or hope you're gonna be lucky enough to find a big SD Card that works well the first time. Data loss due to a bad/incompatible SD Card months down the line is... Unfun!
I want my next phone to have the IBM Watson OS
I don't really expect to see WP7 handsets with faster processors. It isn't needed. Every app or game being made will be aiming for a certain minimum standard.
I do see improvements coming in extra features (like a front facing camera). And I do expect to see handsets with more and more memory.
If the end of 2011 brought WP7 devices with the current processor, but also offered 768 MB RAM, 32 GB storage and a front facing camera, that would be one hell of a competitive device.
Then in the holiday of 2012 we could see WP8 push the hardware limits by launching with some really high minimum specs. But at the same time, still support WP7 for "budget" handsets.
They need sexier devices. I must admit the three buttons on the front do look classy.
Reflexx1 said:
I don't really expect to see WP7 handsets with faster processors. It isn't needed. Every app or game being made will be aiming for a certain minimum standard.
I do see improvements coming in extra features (like a front facing camera). And I do expect to see handsets with more and more memory.
If the end of 2011 brought WP7 devices with the current processor, but also offered 768 MB RAM, 32 GB storage and a front facing camera, that would be one hell of a competitive device.
Then in the holiday of 2012 we could see WP8 push the hardware limits by launching with some really high minimum specs. But at the same time, still support WP7 for "budget" handsets.
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The minimum specs must be maintained and they must be maintained at a level that ensures user experience will not be compromised for people who bought launch devices. In the holiday season of 2012 people will still be stuck on contract with current devices, probably for months to come.
All of a sudden apps will be updated in a way that their phones will choke running these apps.
Just upping the minimum specs because you think it sounds cute is a dumb idea. I doubt Microsoft will do it, and if they do, people will sort of laugh at them and they will lose a ton of customers. By then RIM will have QNX Blackberries and WebOS may be well-developed. There will be even more choices than we have today...
They really have to take an "Apple" approach to hardware support, IMO. It's the only thing that makes sense sort of overspeccing your devices and enticing a bunch of geeks to upgrade their phones every year for major software updates/bug fixes every 9 months to a year.
Yeah but is it partially due to room? I mean, Sense ROMs running slower than the cleaned up and simpler AOSP ROMs? I get the lack of acceleration ... a d understand the end result and why people might complain ... but my phone is snappy even though at times I notice slow down .. but that is hardly reason to ignore stability updates, even others. I mean , while my phone might be running smooth here ... it may slow down there. I see the choppy scroll .. but I've seen friends WP7 - uh, phones? - slow down at times too.
I get sick of this WP7 is constantly butter because its not. More often than not? Sure. But I rarely get agitated at the speed of mu device and most don't either ... sure I can see it, but I've also seen my.phone jump as much as my friends WP7 devices. It all depends. Overall, sure ... but it still doesnt touch iOS. To think you are major steps ahead is hype. More overhead here .... lack of acceleration here ... it's not shocking when you think about it. Android uses more resources and overhead ... you have such q standardized system. Its almost not surprising. And it's NOT suggestive of you being "good" at the moment.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
That's a great article. I agree 100%. I had a Samsung Galaxy S and with it's freshest time it had the most powerful chips int the markets, but even today it is not lag free, because of crappy Samsung optimizations to the software. That's why I really don't believe the new Galaxy S II will be any better with it's dual core. You could see it from the videos, that it's laggy at the moment and I don't believe Samsung will get it lag free ever.
fast hardware = bad ?
this smacks of hardware envy something terrible.
surrrrre, android + quad cores will suck... but wp8 will be perfect. whatever, if ever.
N8ter said:
The current WP7 devices are fine. Just make sure you get one with 16G Storage and 512+ RAM or hope you're gonna be lucky enough to find a big SD Card that works well the first time. Data loss due to a bad/incompatible SD Card months down the line is... Unfun!
I want my next phone to have the IBM Watson OS
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Why is 512+ RAM important, I was thing about getting the HTC 7 Pro, which only has 448 RAM and also is 16gb necessary if I don't use my phone as a media player as HTC 7 Pro only has 8gb as well?
Beesneazy, you're either completely full of crap or just delusional. I mean wow. Android fanboyism at its ugliest. Yeesh.
Ohgood, did you read the article? If you did, perhaps it's time to go back to Hooked on Phonics to work on word comprehension...
Anyhow, on topic, I completely agree with the article posted by OP. Kiddies like these Android fanboys love to deny the truth but it is what it is. Did everyone really think Microsoft would just sit back and be pummeled in the mobile phone market forever? With the right moves in the future WP7 will be huge. Maybe knock Android back down to third or fourth place and setup a head to head with iOS...
Sent from my HD7 using Board Express
ohgood said:
this smacks of hardware envy something terrible.
surrrrre, android + quad cores will suck... but wp8 will be perfect. whatever, if ever.
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Yes, and when you get your quad core phones that are still lagging, and still dont recieve the latest updates, and are still running a version of android that is essentially a pallet swap of 2.1 and still looks like a low end iphone we'll be happy with our maybe dual or maybe quad-core phones that run smoother, have better games (because aside from iphone ports and maybe 1-2 other games androids selection is just terrible), have a decent media player, have oustanding integration with business and personal matters, and we'll actually have a NEW OS not just an overhyped pallet swap of the previous version.
Fact WP7 will never catch Android or IOS.
Sure WP7 is nice. Serious competitor, nope.
Think realistic and remove your love affair. Maybe WP7 can be 5th place or if things go well 4th place.
Now flame on.
N8ter said:
The minimum specs must be maintained and they must be maintained at a level that ensures user experience will not be compromised for people who bought launch devices. In the holiday season of 2012 people will still be stuck on contract with current devices, probably for months to come.
All of a sudden apps will be updated in a way that their phones will choke running these apps.
Just upping the minimum specs because you think it sounds cute is a dumb idea. I doubt Microsoft will do it, and if they do, people will sort of laugh at them and they will lose a ton of customers. By then RIM will have QNX Blackberries and WebOS may be well-developed. There will be even more choices than we have today...
They really have to take an "Apple" approach to hardware support, IMO. It's the only thing that makes sense sort of overspeccing your devices and enticing a bunch of geeks to upgrade their phones every year for major software updates/bug fixes every 9 months to a year.
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I'm not sure what you're attempting to address when you quoted me. I never mentioned changing the minimum specs of WP7.
And I think it's pretty much guaranteed that WP8 will have a completely different set of minimum specs. Do you expect it to never change?
vetvito said:
They need sexier devices. I must admit the three buttons on the front do look classy.
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Exactly! I agree they don't need more powerful devices but they do need more appealing hardware (for a start a 32GB device would do no harm).
vetvito said:
Fact WP7 will never catch Android or IOS.
Sure WP7 is nice. Serious competitor, nope.
Think realistic and remove your love affair. Maybe WP7 can be 5th place or if things go well 4th place.
Now flame on.
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Sad but true. WP7 is quite late and if you think about it the real launch will be with Nokia, I doubt they'll sell anything before that as nothing has changed since October.
vetvito said:
Fact WP7 will never catch Android or IOS.
Sure WP7 is nice. Serious competitor, nope.
Think realistic and remove your love affair. Maybe WP7 can be 5th place or if things go well 4th place.
Now flame on.
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this is true only because the majority of cellphone owners are complete morons.
first of all, I think WP7 OS is great and i have my omnia 7 for about 18months now, so im in a great position to say what i think of it.
for the first time in 18 months, im starting too look at the Android OS. why?
WP7 Hardware STILL dosnt cut it and there not a single true wp7 high end device out there.
examples,
the aging low res
low memory (especially if you live in the UK 8 gb phones really?)
poor GPU (60 fps is the minimum standard and wp7 games seem to be struggling to hit 30 fps. only the games with poor graphics run at 60fps on wp7. its embarrasing. i wouldnt show my android /iphone owning friends these games on my phone.
single core - sure the actual OS generally is nice and smooth ( although mine has definately slowed down recently maybe as im running out of memory?) however try opening PDF files they slow right down and take an age to open
Skydrive, i use skydrive all the time, i log on today and now instead of my usual 25GB i see i now only have 7GB ? whats going on here, skydrive was the only thing keeping my phone running over since i have only 8, ( actually 7GB of storage on my phone........
like i said at the start, the OS it self is really great, i just wish i could have the OS on a device as powerful as the "old"Samsung galaxy s2 ( I say old but its still WAY more powerful than WP7 devices.) but the hardware is really letting WP7 Down... no wonder sales have been rubbish
Read this article:
http://wmpoweruser.com/skydrive-for-windows-now-available-to-download-features-as-promised/
It will give you a link to 'upgrade' your SkyDrive storage back to 25GB. I just did this yesterday for an account, so it should still be working. It also has a link for the new SkyDrive Windows 7 program, which makes SD now on par with DropBox (Better, actually since it now keeps the phone in sync with folders on the computer).
thanks for that .......should keep me ticking over until my contract ends. by then i expect ( more like hope actually) that there will be at least 1 wp7 htc device in 6 months?
davidebanks said:
thanks for that .......should keep me ticking over until my contract ends. by then i expect ( more like hope actually) that there will be at least 1 wp7 htc device in 6 months?
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I hope they make something like the hardware used for the ONE S.
I was helping my friend get her very first ever smart phone (Lumia 710) yesterday. We were at Car Toys. The sales guy went to the back to get the ONE S to show it off. Granted, I'm in no way passionate about Android, but it is one sexy piece of hardware. Just the right thickness, but a great sturdiness and weight to it. I was really impressed with its feel. Were there no Nokia, I'd go w/ HTC. Samsung's all feel like plastic graham crackers to me.
Single core and all those things, do you really need it or just to say Hey I have dual cores. For me, I don't think dual core is needed.
About the GPU, yes I think the game graphics can be improved by a lot seeing those FPS games on iphone.
To the OP, glad that you have realised and awake about the drawbacks...
Have been using my mozart for 13months++, bought the HTC one X last month,honestly my 1st android device. It is great, don't listen to all those lagging&force close BS...give it a try...no regret on one X...
lol...smoked by WP7???who cares?i can play cut the rope: experiment,angry bird space, highlighting and add notes to my PDF lecture slides(this is the crucial one), cheaper apps and etc....
now my mozart is collecting dusk and work as alarm clock[this is where WP7 excel at (easy task)]
davidebanks said:
like i said at the start, the OS it self is really great, i just wish i could have the OS on a device as powerful as the "old"Samsung galaxy s2 ( I say old but its still WAY more powerful than WP7 devices.) but the hardware is really letting WP7 Down... no wonder sales have been rubbish
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If you like the experience of Windows Phone but want more modern hardware, Windows Phone 8 might be worth looking at.
It will be based on the NT kernel and will support more powerful CPU / GPUs (including multi-core CPUs) and higher screen resolutions.
There are plenty of other threads discussing WP8 (including timing) if you want more information. I'd expect it to be out within 6 months, assuming you're on a 2 year contract.
OP, your post is useless as all your other 232 posts. Hope to never see you again in WP7/Win8 forums (you may also pick up a few andro-stupid-trolls with)
Get a phone to suit your needs end of line.
I'm also leaving windows phone for android.
I've been a huge windows phone supporter (went from windows mobile to windows phone) and i still think metro is the greatest thing on any phone. But i'm tired of not having key features that i find essential for any phone. I mean common, no way to turn off auto rotation? No way to view notifications other than live tiles? No way to lower volume without lowering ring volume? No way to turn off 3G (if you had AT&T in NYC you'd understand why)
These are things i consider very very basic and should be implemented.
I really don't care about the apps. That's not why i'm switching. I'm switching because i have a problem with the OS not having basic functionality.
Hi guys, lets try to keep the forum focused in DEVELOPMENT, in this section for WP7. Thread closed.