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Windows phone 7 FAQs,everything you want to know...

Credited and thanks so much to WINFONE7 in official windows phone 7 backstage forum by provide us these useful information. What I do is just copy and paste it here to share with XDA users and reduce the confusion.
So far we know Microsoft broke away from its native Windows Mobile stack and introduced a managed API platform for developers. Developers can use this platform to build third-party mobile apps that run on Microsoft Windows Phone OS 7.0 devices, which are expected at retail in October. The company's new line of attack rests on driving .NET developers and designers to use familiar tools and skill sets to build WP7 apps for a consumer marketplace. The WP7 application development platform is based on the Microsoft rich Internet application framework Silverlight, its gaming framework XNA and the .NET Compact Framework for micro devices. In February, Microsoft announced the XNA Framework -- which is used to build Xbox 360, Windows PC and Zune apps -- now supports Windows Phone and Silverlight. Microsoft is also leveraging its consumer-focused product channels and services by integrating Zune Media, Xbox Live and Windows Azure cloud services, a major focus throughout all of its products going forward. The Windows Phone System Design, which is code-named "Metro" for its allegiance to international signage in a clean layout with an original typeface, is closer to the Microsoft media player Zune HD than Windows. WP7 applications will be distributed through the Windows Phone Marketplace -- accessible via an integrated "hub" on all WP7 devices -- and through desktop PCs. In a model that's similar to the Apple App Store, developers can monetize their apps and earn up to 70 percent of revenues from applications that pass the Microsoft certification requirements. WP7 features an Office hub with Excel, Word, OneNote, SharePoint integration and networking in Silverlight, with Windows Communication Foundation (WCF), HttpWebRequest and WebClient. The user's personalized content on the phone drives the contextual experience, from live dynamic tiles on the Start screen to task--oriented hubs that offer a wider-than-the-screen panoramic view. Developers can build apps that take up a single screen, plug in to a Windows Phone app like the photo editor, or build hub-based panoramic experiences. You'll be able to create apps that look and feel like the Windows Phone apps that come in the box, but you'll also be able to go away from that. If you want to build a video game that's full screen and doesn't use any of the look-and-feel of Windows Phone, you can certainly do that as well. Microsoft is trying to ensure a consistent user experience for end users on both the hardware and software platforms. The WP7 devices, despite having different manufacturers, will all use an ARMv7 architecture with Cortex/Scorpion processor (or better) from Qualcomm Inc., a unified graphics subsystem (DirectX9), only two screen sizes and support capacitive touchscreens with four contact points. Other hardware specifications include 256MB RAM, 8GB Flash and a 5MP camera. First-generation WP7 devices will ship with a 800x480 WVGA touchscreen, with 480x320 HVGA expected sometime after the launch. When the second resolution is shipped, application and game developers will be expected to support both.WP7 supports standard phone-specific functionality and sensors that developers can tap into, such as location (Wi-Fi, cellular and GPS) and map control (Bing), compass, light proximity and accelerometer and push notifications. The location API works with Windows Azure cloud services. Despite the uniformity, WP7 devices will be available in different form factors; so far three prototypes have been shown. Chassis 1 is the ASUS phone used in engineering and demos by Microsoft with the onscreen keyboard. A second design is a sliding QWERTY keyboard by LG Electronics; the third is the Samsung slab-style phone.
I don't think these are final representations. Manufacturers are getting a great deal of flexibility in the look and feel of the phone. There will be a lot of innovation and industrial designs that are going to be available between now and the foreseeable future.
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Q: Will my current Windows Mobile phone get a Windows Phone 7 (WP7) update?
A: It's been announced that no current WinMo phone device (inc. the HD2) will be receiving an official WP7 update.
Q: How much will a WP7 phone cost; Who will manufacturer the phone?
A: WP7 isn't a phone, it's an all new Mobile Operating System from Microsoft. WP7 devices will be available from several device makers; HTC, Dell, LG, Samsung, Asus, etc. Prices will vary and is expected to be along the lines of current smartphone pricing.
Q: When will WP7 phone devices be available?
A: According to the announcement from Microsoft, phones will be available for the Holiday season, speculation is some of the first devices will be announced late September. Official release is rumored to be in October for Europe and November for the United States.
Q: Which US wireless service providers, will offer WP7 phones?
A: All the major wireless service providers in the US will offer WP7 phone devices. AT&T was announced as a Premier partner; might be the first to offer a WP7 phone or/and sell exclusive devices or features.
Q: Will there be Copy & Paste?
A: As it stands, No, this feature will not be available at release, according to Microsoft, WP7 will have smart links / smart sensing, this takes away the need for the copy/paste method in many situations. Smart links; which recognize a block of text, such as a hyperlink, phone number, or address, allow a specific action to be taken.
For a phone number, such "smart links" would allow the number to be dialed. An address might get pulled up in the mapping program, while clicking on a hyperlink would open that page in the browser. Implementing Copy/Paste would delay WP7's release, so MS is giving us the smart sensing feature at release, but several sources have reported Copy/Paste will come in form of an early update, but there is no official confirmation from Microsoft as of yet.
Q. Does Windows Phone support multitasking?
A.Yes, WP7 supports full out multitasking but 3rd party applications will not be allowed to run in the background unless it is through a MS service; instead the app will be paused when changing to another app., (Dehydrated state). This will allow the app to be brought back to the exact same state it was in before it was paused; reducing the strain on the phone's resources. (Hydrated state) (iPhone OS4 multitasking is similar)
Scenario: If an application is running when you the user switches to another application (by using the Start menu, or tapping on a notification, or via some other means) then the assumption as a platform is that the user now wants to focus on the new application, and doesn’t want the previous one interrupting their experience by grabbing memory, CPU, network bandwidth, or other resources. When an application is suspended, during this time, the application can save global state to disk, sign-off from web sites, or perform other clean-up operations. In general this should be relatively simple, because the page-based model of Windows Phone applications facilitates a relatively stateless programming model – much of your application’s state can be encoded in page URIs (as query-string data) or as small blobs of state, stored and retrieved on each page navigation, just like the web. After your application has finished pausing, it will be suspended and no further user code will execute. Note that you can still have push notifications coming in from the cloud, so the user can be kept up-to-date via toasts or you can have your tile updated with the latest information from the web. When your application is suspended, it is not killed immediately. If the user returns to the application “soon” then it can be resumed very quickly and the state saved during pause may not even be necessary. But if the user launches other applications that end up needing a lot of memory, your process will be killed and the memory will be relinquished to the foreground application. This is a key difference between Windows Phone 7 and previous versions of Windows Mobile – the foreground application gets access to virtually all the resources on the phone (memory, CPU, etc.) without having to worry about being starved by background apps that are doing random things at unpredictable times in the background.
If your process was not killed, resume is trivial – you don’t need to restore any state from disk, but you may need to re-start device features like accelerometer or location, and you may need to re-connect to any web services. Assuming your process was killed, the app uses the previously-saved data from pause to re-create your global state, and the per-page state / query-string data to recreate the page state for each page on the back stack. The end result of all this is that users can switch back and forth between applications and have the illusion of full multi-tasking without the downside of erratic resource usage.
Q. Will I be able to customize my OS?
A.Not to the extent you could in WinMo, but in some respects - yes. The O.S. will not allow extreme tweaking. However, it is known that there are at least two themes (black on white and white on black...more are speculated to come at launch) and the tile colors can be changed currently to your choice of six colours. On a deeper level, such as modifying the underlying OS and accessing the file system - it may not be possible to do this "out of the box".
Q: Is WP7 geared just toward the consumer market only?
A: No, WP7 offers many business features at release and will continue to add more.
Business features of the WP7 OS:
Is built from the ground up using industry best practices in secure software development (Secure Development Lifecycle).
Deeply Integrates email, calendar and contacts with Exchange Server enabling rich, seamless email and calendar management to enhance productivity.
Integrates with SharePoint through the SharePoint Workspace client, enabling enhanced collaboration through offline document access and syncing.
Helps protect corporate informationby securing the device through PINs and passwords. Information is further protected by not allowing access to data via PC tethering or support for removable SD cards. In addition, Windows Phone 7 supports IT managed EAS policies such as Require Password, Password Strength, Remote Wipe and Reset to Factory Settings with multiple failed unlock attempts.
Helps ensure data reliability and integrity through application sandboxing and managed code.Windows Phone 7 ensures communications channels between applications cannot be opened and critical system resources cannot be accessed. Most malware threats are introduced through the browser. IE Mobile helps ensure that malicious code cannot be launched from web sites, thus reducing this threat.
Provides certification and verification of applications and content through Windows Phone Marketplace, further enhancing security.
Enables secure data transmission through 128 or 256 Bit SSL Encryption.
Supports secure accessto on-premise applications and network resources using Forefront Universal Access Gateway (UAG).
Is future ready with cloud / services integration. Through the Business Productivity Online Suite (BPOS), Microsoft offers hosted Exchange and SharePoint services. Windows Phone 7 will support mobile access to BPOS from Outlook Mobile and the Office Hub.
Check out Windows Phone for business:
www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/en-us/business/default.mspx">http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/en-us/business/default.mspx
Q: What are the hardware specifications for the WP7 devices.
A: Microsoft put an end to freestyle design. Minimum hardware requirements are as follows:
Screen
Capacitive touch with 4 or more contact points
WVGA (800×480) or HVGA (480×320) resolution
No screen size requirements announced; rumors for Chassis 1 is 3.6" or larger.
Sensors
A-GPS, Accelerometer, Compass, ambient Light, Proximity sensor
Camera
5 mega pixels or more, flash required, camera shutter button required
Multimedia
No detailed specs, Codec Acceleration
Memory
256 MB RAM or more, 8 GB Flash or more
GPU
DirectX 9 and video acceleration
CPU
ARMv7 Cortex/Scorpion (1GHz) or better
5 Required Hardware Buttons
On/Off & Camera. These three, Start, Search (BING), and Back must be fixed to the front of the device.
Q: Will WP7 phones have a slide-out keyboard; what form factor will the phones be?
A: Several sources confirm that there will be three Chassis/form factors at this stage.
Chassis 1 (first devices to hit the market): Will be a slab, large touch screen with high performance specs, no hardware keyboard. Ex: HTC's rumored HD3 pictured, with a 4.5" screen.
Chassis 2: described as a portrait device with a sliding keyboard, DELL Lightning pictured, assumed to be this form factor.
Chassis 3: All we know is that it may have a smaller screen and rumors are that it may be a BB Curve or Palm Centro styled form factor.
Rumored WP7 devices
(W-stands for world phone; CDMA & GSM)
Based on research I've come across. Not confirmed.
HTC
Gold_W - Sprint
Shubert - GSM
Mondrian - GSM
Spark_W - Verizon
Scorpio, aka Olympian - Verizon
Mozart - GSM
T8788 (slide out speaker) - GSM - AT&T
HD7 (rumored to be HD3)
LG
GW910, aka Panther - GSM/CDMA
E900 - GSM
C900 - GSM
Optimus - GSM
Samsung
I917, aka Cetus
Taylor
SGH i707
i8700
DELL
Lightning - GSM
ASUS
Name unknown
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Make your PC look like WP7!
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/13901/make-your-pc-look-like-windows-phone-7/
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Device Connectivity (From the Windows Phone 7 Developer Forums)
Is ActiveSync still used to connect the device to the PC?
No, synchronization is automatic similar to the way the Zune HD connects to the PC.
How should I transfer information over the Internet?
Web technologies such as HTTPGET and WebServices are supported as methods of communicating on the Internet. You can also use Push Notifications for communication when your application is not running.
Can I use Sockets for peer to peer communication?
Windows Phone 7 Series currently does not expose the Socket classes. While the version of Silverlight on the phone follows closely the feature list for Silverlight 3 on the desktop, it is a subset of those features and will not contain all classes. (It also holds a superset of classes not available in Silverlight 3.)
How can I connect with another client in real-time?
Peer-to-peer communication is not supported with this initial release of Windows Phone 7 Series. We are always evaluating the needs of our developers and users though and it may be determined that this feature be added in the future.
From the Windows Phone 7 Developer Forums
Thanks dscammell
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VOICE/SPEECH RECOGNITION:
Great article on what Microsoft has in store for WP7's www.computerworld.com/s/article/9180144/Microsoft_hopes_WP_7_speech_features_surpass_Android_iPhone">http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...s_WP_7_speech_features_surpass_Android_iPhone
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Info about Microsoft's Azure Cloud
Currently Azure cloud includes:
LiveMesh
Skydrive
Microsoft’s HealthVault service
energy-monitoring Hohm service
Services currently not running on Azure: but will eventually.
Hotmail
Xbox Live
Microsoft’s hosted Exchange Online
SharePoint Online
CRM Online
Business Productivity Online Suite (BPOS)
Danger services for mobile devices
Microsoft hasn’t provided a timetable as to when it will transfer all services to Azure but one thing is certain WP7 will be highly integrated with cloud services. The thought of having all this and other services MS is currently working on, gives WP7 fans a reason to get excited.
Windows Phone 7 Series Developer General FAQ
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Fo...s/thread/2892a6f0-ab26-48d6-b63c-e38f62eda3b3
Thanks again to WINFONE7
Cheers...hope this help....

Question about Android.

What is android compared to google. I heard there was a android phone out that runs off Bing. there is also a android windows phone
now i thought android was supported by Google and only google.
can someone just break this down for me how this all works and how google fits into the whole situation
Thanks and would appreciate everyones input

Well I sure haven't heard of an android windows phone. Google acquired the android company..so yes Android is owned by Google. Now some phones like the HD2 have been ported to run android and windows phone and windows mobile if that's what you mean.

Those phones don't run off Bing, their default search engine (when you press the search button) is Bing and some are Yahoo!, I believe that's because of certain deals and agreements made
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App

Android is the operating system project that Google is running for the mobile platform. It is to mobile devices what Windows is to PCs, or what OSX is to a Mac. Other options other than Android are Windows Phone, WebOS (Palm), etc.
As Android is defined to be an open source project, it is also open to using other search providers (Bing is a search engine run by Microsoft). Android isn't a search engine - that's Google. It's just that Google is expanding into other areas as well. For example, they're also pushing the Chrome operating system for netbooks, which is like a replacement for Windows as well. It's the same idea as Android, but for more full-use notebooks. Although I do expect Chrome will be absorbed into Android somewhere down the line and they'll merge into a single project as netbooks, tablets, and mobile devices/phones become the same market.

Google owns the android os, as its the the google mobile os. A few windows phones have had the android os ported over to them, and some of them [like the HD2 I believe] can dual boot.

I'm sorry but how can you have 657 posts and not know what Android and Google are, and how they are related.

CAT Computers [Saint Louis, MO]: Android Platform Developer / Architect

Job Summary:
Expertise in Java
Expertise in C++
Expertise in embedded Linux device driver
Expertise in embedded Linux core / file system / scheduler / debugging
Expertise in Android Platform
Requirements:
Education (Optional):
Degree in Computer Science / Software Engineering
Qualifications:
Excellent Java and C++ programming skills
Excellent Java and C++ debugging skills
Good understanding of embedded Linux
Experience with embedded Linux device driver
Understanding the ARM architecture, Linux Kernel, BSP, and graphics / multimedia frameworks
Programming experiences (5+ years) in C/C++ in embedded OS environment
Experience in the Android system such as OpenCore, rendering and audio scheme
Hands-on experience in mobile related device drivers, middleware, Android
(Optional but preferred): Experience with Mobile Video Streaming applications (such as MythTV and other similar apps) & Mobile Ad Integration
Language:
English
Project Specifics:
Seeking a Freelance Android Developer with pref. experience in developing their own ROM's or secure skin / layovers (similar to the Nook or Kindle.
We are looking to develop a custom locked -down secure ROM based on basic Android. Experience with ICS is not required though preferable.). We are looking to skin Android similar to Nook's & Kindles and develop our own layover with access to our own applications.
We will also want the ability to remotely update the skin / layover, and the apps available through it.
Though the initial development will be in Android, we may branch off and later develop for the iPAD and WebOS (if WEbOS stays alive).
Taking an existing open source ROM and making minor lockdown modifications is what we are looking for. If you have any questions email us at [email protected]
Responsibilities and Duties:
Developing / adding features to Android Platform
Develop the Android kernel device drivers and Android platform
Interact with customers and third-party solution providers to support customers' mass production
Location: Saint Louis, MO (Telecommuting opportunity – U.S. Residents preferred but not required)
Salary: OPEN FOR BID
To apply, please send your résumé to [email protected]

Transition from Android to Web App?

Namaste my fellow developers.
I am a rather young developer, who started off with Android and have developed about 10-15 apps till today out of which 2 are up on Google Play.
Just to increase my knowledge and sector I was planning to make a shift into web apps. I did learn Java specifically for Android but want to get my hands on the other platforms as well. So my questions, Sirs and Madams, are:
1.Technically, How is Android and Web Apps different?
2.Should I make the transition?
3.How do i start? (some resources would be helpful)
All and Every feedback would be appreciated. Thank YOU!

hi karantrehan, my two cents on the matter
1. you can think of a web app as a web site running inside an Android Webview, with all its files (html, images, javascripts, css, ...) bundled inside the app. The enclosing app just launches an Activity with a webview, everything else is done by html and javascript (although you can bind java code to javascript function to exploit Android's APIs).
2. It depends: I think web apps are a viable choice in two situations:
you're a web developer that want to build an app without having to learn Android
you want to build a cross-platform app, reaching Android, iOS, WP without learning every single language
Otherwise, I would not advise it, I don't see particular advantages... unless you want to learn something new!
3. for the Android integration part, take a look here: developer.android.com/guide/webapps/webview.html
For the html/css/js part.... well, web development is as old as the web itself, there are tons of guides out there Don't miss some helpful projects like jQuery Mobile.

karantrehan said:
Namaste my fellow developers.
I am a rather young developer, who started off with Android and have developed about 10-15 apps till today out of which 2 are up on Google Play.
Just to increase my knowledge and sector I was planning to make a shift into web apps. I did learn Java specifically for Android but want to get my hands on the other platforms as well. So my questions, Sirs and Madams, are:
1.Technically, How is Android and Web Apps different?
2.Should I make the transition?
3.How do i start? (some resources would be helpful)
All and Every feedback would be appreciated. Thank YOU!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Web Apps are made using multiple languages. Front-side/Client-side, they are developed in HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Out of the three, JavaScript is the only programming language. HTML is a markup language, and CSS is used for UI and UX. You could also use the Dart language. Dart is a new client-side language developed by Google. Currently, however, no major browser supports it (not even Google Chrome), and so in the end, it gets compiled into JavaScript.
Server-side (backend), there are a multitude of programming languages you could use. Java (through JSP), PHP, Ruby on Rails, Python. Typically you're using PHP and SQL for anything in regards to a database.
Web Apps can be hosted in a browser, or you can submit them into App Stores using things like Apache Cordava.
2. As a developer of any sort, you should always improve and learn new languages. Its better for marketability, improves your skillset, and overall can make you a better developer. So, in the end, the choice is up to you. I would highly recommend you to do so.
3. There are tons of resources available. You can search for tutorials on google or youtube. When I got started, I used w3schools to learn HTML, CSS, and PHP. I would really recommend using YouTube as well if you are a visual learner like me.

1. Like reProgrammed said, web apps are a bit different in that there's a couple of layers to them as opposed to Android apps. The back-end logic that does your database fetches and such is programmed in PHP, Python, ASP.NET (C#/VB.NET), etc. The front-end website, the pages and stuff you interact with, are done with primarily (X)HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. And for databases you've got SQL Server or MySQL, mainly.
2. Absolutely. I'm a developer myself, professionally and as a hobby, and it's never a bad idea to learn a new language or framework or environment. It'll make you a better developer and can get you jobs, or foot in the door, if that's your profession.
3. I don't really have many resources. However, in the past I've used:
W3Schools
MSDN (for C#)
Stack Overflow
Google
And then there's always books. They can get outdated but they can be great resources. I still sometimes refer to my "Android for Dummies" book when I'm working on my Android app, even though I Google search more often. Hope that helps.

Question Why do companies fight Android (P6P) rooted while not Windows OS?

Need some feedback from the community. What the title says. I can download Hulu on Windows 11/10 (desktop computer with unlocked processor and root permissions of the OS) and watch everything through my account but with Android P6P rooted, it's a PAIN IN THE ASS to watch hulu through the app.
I just don't understand the logic here. Can someone explain the difference?

rester555 said:
Need some feedback from the community. What the title says. I can download Hulu on Windows 11/10 (desktop computer with unlocked processor and root permissions of the OS) and watch everything through my account but with Android P6P rooted, it's a PAIN IN THE ASS to watch hulu through the app.
I just don't understand the logic here. Can someone explain the difference?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are different things. I am not an expert but I know that android is linux based and windows isn't. There are different techniques used to display things, get root access, use the internet/apps etc. Also, the processor comes unlocked and it is meant to be that way unlike the phone which comes locked.

stelmilt said:
They are different things. I am not an expert but I know that android is linux based and windows isn't. There are different techniques used to display things, get root access, use the internet/apps etc. Also, the processor comes unlocked and it is meant to be that way unlike the phone which comes locked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair point, my computer comes with an unlocked processor, but the phone comes with an unlockable bootloader, but that's a pretty weak argument with over the top restrictions from these vendors. It seems like they all have a vision in the future and that's everything behind a server wall in the future I bet and you are just a dumb terminal with a data pipe.

I guess another side point is how do you check which level of widevine you have? If memory serves me, on A13 if you don't have the proper level apps don't show movies like Hulu. Has this been solved for A13 on P6P?

Further review of doing identity check, I am getting an HDCP disconnected error when using hulu. Seems like the Hulu apk is looking for HDCP connect status.

Yep, Windows is a very different animal. Even with UAC (User Account Control) that has existed since Windows Vista, the main account of a Windows PC is still an Admin and effectively has root control. You can store Word documents in the Windows\System32\Drivers subfolder if you want. This kind of thing happens by accident all the time. It's pretty crazy, really.
I think even "Standard" (non-Admin) Windows accounts have far greater permissions than they would for some aspects they would on a Linux-based device. I think Standard users can still store things in the wrong places, but probably not as many wrong places, and they can't access other users' folders.
In the end, streaming services operating on a Windows PC have to operate without as strict conditions because the computer is already "rooted" as it comes from the manufacturer.

rester555 said:
Need some feedback from the community. What the title says. I can download Hulu on Windows 11/10 (desktop computer with unlocked processor and root permissions of the OS) and watch everything through my account but with Android P6P rooted, it's a PAIN IN THE ASS to watch hulu through the app.
I just don't understand the logic here. Can someone explain the difference?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is ZERO difference, except EXPECTATION.
Because the software vendor CANNOT expect any desktop/laptop to not provide elevated privileges on demand, but STUPID FRIKKIN GOOBLE built it with these fundamental restrictions in as expectation.

I have hulu bought, but I can't watch it, so I ended up getting a modded apk

tl;dr; because android and Linux are open source
Whenever the app is starting either in windows or android, the only thing it can reach out it's an operating system. The app has almost no privileges over the OS while the OS has ALL over the app. Since the app wants to work with its own data that shouldn't be leaked, the app somehow must ensure it can trust the highly privileged OS before it brings the data into it. How an app can ensure? Well, with certain assumptions it can.
Windows is a proprietary OS with proprietary drivers. All drivers and critical binaries in the OS are passing Microsoft's signing to ensure they aren't modified and their developers are known. OS and drivers are all binaries which makes them hard to be modified or at least such modification would require abnormal resources like expertise, time, money, and knowledge. Windows passes different certifications, security audits, and under permanent attention from security researches. Such things as audits are trying to ensure the OS applies all available security measures and is using available hardware to protect the system and apps from intrusion/modification, thus enterprises trust it. Considering the all above, you, as an app developer, can easily assume: I can trust Windows as its binaries can be hardly modified as it leverages hardware to secure everything, so whenever our app will ask the OS to provide a hardware protected storage for the data, the app will get it.
The all above applies to the stock Android as well, and apps trust such systems. The only difference here is that app developers know that Android and Linux kernel are open source and anyone can modify them and flash into the phone. Now, how an app can ensure it runs on the OS that can be trusted? The app can do that by checking whether the OS is rooted or not. If it's rooted, the OS is certainly somehow modified. The app's devs are assuming that highly privileged modified OS can fake/emulate secure storage and steal the app's data from the less privileged app.
If you wish here is an analogy: Windows is a Ritz Hotel and Android is AirBnB. While they are serving the same purpose: host you as a guest, they are different, and you'll deal with them differently as a guest. Ritz has reputation, a license to run a business, and no one can fake a Ritz hotel. When you stop in a Ritz hotel, you can 100% be sure you can trust it and there are no hidden cameras in rooms as well as you can expect a decent service. Absolutely different story with AirBnB. In AirBnB everyone can be a host, and this brings a problem with a trust to a random person. Once you stop in Airbnb apartments, you highly likely will try to find a hidden camera to understand whether you can trust the host or not.
PS: as per my knowledge, some banking apps aren't running on rooted phones due to same reasons

burned-donut said:
tl;dr; because android and Linux are open source
Whenever the app is starting either in windows or android, the only thing it can reach out it's an operating system. The app has almost no privileges over the OS while the OS has ALL over the app. Since the app wants to work with its own data that shouldn't be leaked, the app somehow must ensure it can trust the highly privileged OS before it brings the data into it. How an app can ensure? Well, with certain assumptions it can.
Windows is a proprietary OS with proprietary drivers. All drivers and critical binaries in the OS are passing Microsoft's signing to ensure they aren't modified and their developers are known. OS and drivers are all binaries which makes them hard to be modified or at least such modification would require abnormal resources like expertise, time, money, and knowledge. Windows passes different certifications, security audits, and under permanent attention from security researches. Such things as audits are trying to ensure the OS applies all available security measures and is using available hardware to protect the system and apps from intrusion/modification, thus enterprises trust it. Considering the all above, you, as an app developer, can easily assume: I can trust Windows as its binaries can be hardly modified as it leverages hardware to secure everything, so whenever our app will ask the OS to provide a hardware protected storage for the data, the app will get it.
The all above applies to the stock Android as well, and apps trust such systems. The only difference here is that app developers know that Android and Linux kernel are open source and anyone can modify them and flash into the phone. Now, how an app can ensure it runs on the OS that can be trusted? The app can do that by checking whether the OS is rooted or not. If it's rooted, the OS is certainly somehow modified. The app's devs are assuming that highly privileged modified OS can fake/emulate secure storage and steal the app's data from the less privileged app.
If you wish here is an analogy: Windows is a Ritz Hotel and Android is AirBnB. While they are serving the same purpose: host you as a guest, they are different, and you'll deal with them differently as a guest. Ritz has reputation, a license to run a business, and no one can fake a Ritz hotel. When you stop in a Ritz hotel, you can 100% be sure you can trust it and there are no hidden cameras in rooms as well as you can expect a decent service. Absolutely different story with AirBnB. In AirBnB everyone can be a host, and this brings a problem with a trust to a random person. Once you stop in Airbnb apartments, you highly likely will try to find a hidden camera to understand whether you can trust the host or not.
PS: as per my knowledge, some banking apps aren't running on rooted phones due to same reasons
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is all hogwash. They harass owners of mobile devices *because they can*, which is exclusively connected to expectation and not security.
As for your example of a custom compiled kernel, THAT IS NOT ROOT. That's just a custom compiled kernel.

96carboard said:
As for your example of a custom compiled kernel, THAT IS NOT ROOT. That's just a custom compiled kernel.
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Click to collapse
It’s not a “just”. Kernel is the most privileged part of the whole system and “just custom compiled” for app developers means “it’s no longer a kernel signed by the manufacturers we trust as they have contracts with vendors supplying a DRM subsystem and this unknown kernel has endless power over the system and who knows how it was altered”. Thus “just custom compiled android” with “just root functionality” is the same thing from the app’s perspective. Google for “android verified boot” and you’ll learn why “just custom compiled kernel” breaks the chain of trust.
PS: in past I was a developer of a linux multimedia devices that had supported the same thing to play drm media. Without proper drm support which requires a verified boot no one will allow you to join the US media market and import your devices. If Hulu app would allow to play a licensed content on devices without drm+verified boot — the Hulu immediately would be kicked out from the market by other players.

burned-donut said:
tl;dr; because android and Linux are open source
Whenever the app is starting either in windows or android, the only thing it can reach out it's an operating system. The app has almost no privileges over the OS while the OS has ALL over the app. Since the app wants to work with its own data that shouldn't be leaked, the app somehow must ensure it can trust the highly privileged OS before it brings the data into it. How an app can ensure? Well, with certain assumptions it can.
Windows is a proprietary OS with proprietary drivers. All drivers and critical binaries in the OS are passing Microsoft's signing to ensure they aren't modified and their developers are known. OS and drivers are all binaries which makes them hard to be modified or at least such modification would require abnormal resources like expertise, time, money, and knowledge. Windows passes different certifications, security audits, and under permanent attention from security researches. Such things as audits are trying to ensure the OS applies all available security measures and is using available hardware to protect the system and apps from intrusion/modification, thus enterprises trust it. Considering the all above, you, as an app developer, can easily assume: I can trust Windows as its binaries can be hardly modified as it leverages hardware to secure everything, so whenever our app will ask the OS to provide a hardware protected storage for the data, the app will get it.
The all above applies to the stock Android as well, and apps trust such systems. The only difference here is that app developers know that Android and Linux kernel are open source and anyone can modify them and flash into the phone. Now, how an app can ensure it runs on the OS that can be trusted? The app can do that by checking whether the OS is rooted or not. If it's rooted, the OS is certainly somehow modified. The app's devs are assuming that highly privileged modified OS can fake/emulate secure storage and steal the app's data from the less privileged app.
If you wish here is an analogy: Windows is a Ritz Hotel and Android is AirBnB. While they are serving the same purpose: host you as a guest, they are different, and you'll deal with them differently as a guest. Ritz has reputation, a license to run a business, and no one can fake a Ritz hotel. When you stop in a Ritz hotel, you can 100% be sure you can trust it and there are no hidden cameras in rooms as well as you can expect a decent service. Absolutely different story with AirBnB. In AirBnB everyone can be a host, and this brings a problem with a trust to a random person. Once you stop in Airbnb apartments, you highly likely will try to find a hidden camera to understand whether you can trust the host or not.
PS: as per my knowledge, some banking apps aren't running on rooted phones due to same reasons
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A custom kernel is not the same thing as root. In classic Linux and UNIX, root is a user account that can do pretty much anything (even delete the entire OS if you know what flags to pass to rm, I will not go into what they are). Root is present on a lot of Linux distros until disabled, and all variants of BSD.
Next time do your research before acting like you know what you're talking about, there will always be someone who actually knows that will take you down a peg.

dragynbane222 said:
A custom kernel is not the same thing as root.
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You didn't read my comment carefully. I did say:
burned-donut said:
Now, how an app can ensure it runs on the OS that can be trusted? The app can do that by checking whether the OS is rooted or not. If it's rooted, the OS is certainly somehow modified.
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The app doesn't care about the rooting itself, it has only concerns about whether it can trust the whole system or not. If the system is rooted → it came from an unverified source → it's likely somehow modified because it's open source → no trust. The rooting is only a red flag because none of stock Androids have it. Nowadays, there could be other options to check whether the chain of trust is broken or not, so apps could decline to work even if there is no rooting at all but custom kernel had broken the chain.
dragynbane222 said:
root is a user account that can do pretty much anything even delete the entire OS
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That's no longer true. The Linux kernel (and Android particularly) has the SELinux subsystem that can be tuned up to prevent a root user from doing that. Kernel has absolute privileges, and kernel can manage what's allowed to the root user. Next time, do your research before acting like you know what you're talking about.

burned-donut said:
It’s not a “just”. Kernel is the most privileged part of the whole system and “just custom compiled” for app developers means “it’s no longer a kernel signed by the manufacturers we trust as they have contracts with vendors supplying a DRM subsystem and this unknown kernel has endless power over the system and who knows how it was altered”. Thus “just custom compiled android” with “just root functionality” is the same thing from the app’s perspective. Google for “android verified boot” and you’ll learn why “just custom compiled kernel” breaks the chain of trust.
PS: in past I was a developer of a linux multimedia devices that had supported the same thing to play drm media. Without proper drm support which requires a verified boot no one will allow you to join the US media market and import your devices. If Hulu app would allow to play a licensed content on devices without drm+verified boot — the Hulu immediately would be kicked out from the market by other players.
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What are you on about? That has nothing to do with this discussion.

burned-donut said:
it's likely somehow modified because it's open source
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Being open source has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether or not it is modified.

96carboard said:
Being open source has NOTHING AT ALL to do with whether or not it is modified.
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Sorry, no wish to continue a discussion after such confident but fallacy statement. Good luck.