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It's a good start I suppose. Here are some questions:
Does this change how users can report posts/users? Or is it still the troublesome bulky way of having to PM your forum mods and hope for the best? Sometimes days between reports and action?
Will we see more moderator involvement in the community, or will it continue to be a ghostland unless someone flashes the bat-signal for help? (I can only speak of EVO 4G forums).
In short: What should the average joe user who is, say, frustrated with [Q] in development for example, see in the upcoming days/weeks?
Hopefully this can stay on-topic
github said:
It's a good start I suppose. Here are some questions:
Does this change how users can report posts/users? Or is it still the troublesome bulky way of having to PM your forum mods and hope for the best? Sometimes days between reports and action?
Will we see more moderator involvement in the community, or will it continue to be a ghostland unless someone flashes the bat-signal for help? (I can only speak of EVO 4G forums).
In short: What should the average joe user who is, say, frustrated with [Q] in development for example, see in the upcoming days/weeks?
Hopefully this can stay on-topic
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It isn't necessarily a matter of days or weeks of when the new report system/mod involvement will roll out. The report system is being reworked to accommodate the mods and users alike. The old way was only beneficial to the users and create hassle for the mod team. This made it more difficult to deal with reports instead of simpler. The report system was made that way in the first place because, at the time, it was the right way to do it. As the user base exploded here, it became apparent that this was no longer viable.
The old report system dumped all reports into a massive pile and made it difficult to get to the important ones that needed immediate attention. This is why you now need to PM mods to address moving threads. That isn't an important issue as much as flaming, kanging, or warez is.
There is a new system in the works to address the issues that the old system raised as well as make it simpler for users to report posts. You'll just need to be patient while the kinks are worked out. Don't worry, good things come to those who wait.
As far as mod involvement, this is where the new [revised] site direction comes in. It's no longer an act of congress to ban or discipline someone. If a user does something retarded, he will be punished. It's that simple. However, not every mod can be in every place at once. That's the whole reason we have a report function. Especially if you see a forum needs deep cleaning, you should PM the forum mod first. If that doesn't work, PM any senior mod with your problem. There is also a Requests from the users to the mods and admins sticky thread here that you can utilize.
All in all, there are good things on the way. We just need to be patient while the kinks are worked out.
Even if I understand and respect the goal to provide better methods and tools for the admins and mods of this forums, I'd like to ask the question:
"Was it necessary to use the Iron Fist picture and publish it with this title?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist
In colloquial English, an "Iron Fist" refers to the authority exerted by a powerful, unforgiving governing figure, extended variously to public or private life, used to describe a person who operates under strictly authoritarian principles. Ex. "Josef Stalin ruled the USSR with an iron fist" ...
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ThaiDai said:
Even if I understand and respect the goal to provide better methods and tools for the admins and mods of this forums, I'd like to ask the question:
"Was it necessary to use the Iron Fist picture and publish it with this title?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist
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They could have called it the "Turd Ferguson Project" for all I care. The name isn't important. However, this one being the Iron Fist that is set to unleash blows to those who think it's ok to use this site as their personal dumping ground seems fair to me.
github said:
Will we see more moderator involvement in the community, or will it continue to be a ghostland unless someone flashes the bat-signal for help? (I can only speak of EVO 4G forums).
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Having been a member of the X10 and now Arc forums since joining I welcome "Iron fist", and still believe there should be a week limit when you first join before you're allowed to post anything because that way it would encourage people to search more, along with having to actually read threads where the answer being looked for has been answered a thousand times already. In regards to githubs point, I'd like to see more of that too in the Arc section.
ALL moderators imo should 1. Actually own the phone of the forum they are moderating and 2. Be able to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to the forum, which might help with keeping the forums clean because they have an interest and a duty to keep on top of things.
cajunflavoredbob said:
They could have called it the "Turd Ferguson Project" for all I care. The name isn't important. However, this one being the Iron Fist that is set to unleash blows to those who think it's ok to use this site as their personal dumping ground seems fair to me.
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Spot on.
XperienceD said:
ALL moderators imo should 1. Actually own the phone of the forum they are moderating and 2. Be able to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to the forum, which might help with keeping the forums clean because they have an interest and a duty to keep on top of things.
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Spot on. Our goal has been to assign mods to device forums that apply to them. When possible, we attempt to assign a few mods to each device forums such that time zone overlap occurs.
Some of the challenges we often encounter are:
Infrequent mod attendance; this is a volunteer (aka unpaid) role after all
Mods who switch to a new device at some point before a replacement mod is assigned - i.e. they now manage several forums
Obtaining quality mod candidates
Mods who decide to retire
ThaiDai said:
Even if I understand and respect the goal to provide better methods and tools for the admins and mods of this forums, I'd like to ask the question:
"Was it necessary to use the Iron Fist picture and publish it with this title?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist
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This was covered in the message:
Svetius said:
The name "Iron Fist" is a bit of an inside joke among the moderators--we are very clearly not an unyielding Gestapo.
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And, frankly, I'm glad they didn't call it the 'Turd Ferguson Project.'
mrkite38 said:
And, frankly, I'm glad they didn't call it the 'Turd Ferguson Project.'
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The "Allan Parson Project" seems a more befitting name
In reference to reporting any problem post/member, what I've been doing lately is keeping one of my Chrome tabs with the Forum leader List open.
If I encounter a problem post/flame, I create my pm with the links to the post/thread, my reason for reporting it and if the section does not have a mod to send it to, or if i think it needs immediate attention, I then refresh that Forum Leader list to see who is on at the moment and send out the pm to the mod. 9 out of 10, they get it within moments and take care of it, unless they log off by the time the pm is sent out. (or if they deem it not necessary to report).
There are times that even if a section has a mod assigned to it, some issues need to be taken care of immediately before it escalates into a much bigger problem and that is why I'm do the method above until the new reporting system takes effect.
TS out
twospirits said:
In reference to reporting any problem post/member, what I've been doing lately is keeping one of my Chrome tabs with the Forum leader List open.
If I encounter a problem post/flame, I create my pm with the links to the post/thread, my reason for reporting it and if the section does not have a mod to send it to, or if i think it needs immediate attention, I then refresh that Forum Leader list to see who is on at the moment and send out the pm to the mod. 9 out of 10, they get it within moments and take care of it, unless they log off by the time the pm is sent out. (or if they deem it not necessary to report).
There are times that even if a section has a mod assigned to it, some issues need to be taken care of immediately before it escalates into a much bigger problem and that is why I'm do the method above until the new reporting system takes effect.
TS out
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Very good point. I try to only involve my forum mods, but I like your idea too. Depending on the issue sometimes I'll PM a few mods that I have known in the past to be pretty quick to take action and/or helpful overall.
I won't name any names, but one of them posted in here *cough* Thanks!
Hopefully Iron Fist is more like Bruce Lee's Fist of Fury!
Hopefully with less people making useless threads etc, the older members might also chill out a little.
Audionut11 said:
Hopefully with less people making useless threads etc, the older members might also chill out a little.
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Unfortunately there are some "older" members that are causing just as much if not more trouble than their newer counterparts.
So 4 mods posted after my post here...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=276306&page=239
And I guess they didn't feel it was enough for "iron fist"?
Zeus... God of Awesome!
mattykinsx said:
Unfortunately there are some "older" members that are causing just as much if not more trouble than their newer counterparts.
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I second that.
XperienceD said:
Having been a member of the X10 and now Arc forums since joining I welcome "Iron fist", and still believe there should be a week limit when you first join before you're allowed to post anything because that way it would encourage people to search more, along with having to actually read threads where the answer being looked for has been answered a thousand times already. In regards to githubs point, I'd like to see more of that too in the Arc section.
ALL moderators imo should 1. Actually own the phone of the forum they are moderating and 2. Be able to dedicate a certain amount of time each day to the forum, which might help with keeping the forums clean because they have an interest and a duty to keep on top of things.
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Id like to respond to this as I'm currently moderating the Arc section.
I do not own the device but to be honest I spend far more time in the forumsi moderate than in the forums for devices I own.
Now, atm you may be thinking, "aye right, the place is a s×××hole"
You may be right as I haven't been around much in the past few days.
However under "normal" real life circumstances. All my forums are swept at least once a day. If I should miss anything then please do not hesitate to PM me.....
I make every effort to close/delete/m ove misplaced or duplicate threads but obv. some do get missed, simply because I cannot read every thread. Again, in such a situation or if you just want to discuss the way the section is moderated then please do PM me and let me know.....
I hope that addresses some of your concerns.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Hello fellow XDA-Users,
I have been a member of this forum for quite some time now, and currently spend my time in the Optimus 2X section.
People from there might recognize me from my guide on how to build cyanogenmod7 from source and some bits and pieces
from the O2X section.
Some of you might know, that LG delayed the update for this phone quite a bit, which brings me to the purpose of this
thread: The amount of spam and Off-Topic in the general section as well as the development section has blown up
insanely over the last 2-3 months, and this has caused a lot of tension between users and mods, among users and of course
users and devs. While, in case of the general section, this might be bearable, it is not for the dev section, since the real
devs can't work properly because all the useful information gets buried under the same questions and off-topic again and again.
Just recently, a mod was required to close a thread containing bleeding edge information and made it clear that he had no
intention of reopening it again.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I want to dump my thoughts for a solution in this thread. While
I don't know to which degree these can be implemented or if they might contradict the philosphy or user-rights of XDA,
I still want to post them. These ideas apply first and foremost to the dev section. I see the dev section as a read-only
section for anyone that doesn't have anything to contribute towards the development, no matter how long he has been
here or how many posts he already made. Therefore I propose the following mechanics to keep the dev sections clear of Spam.
Allow only recognized developers, contributors and the other verified ranks in the forums to start threads in the dev section.
This prevents off topic threads from being created in the first place. If someone new really wants to start a new thread because
he really has something useful to share, I imagine some sort of verification process where users can submit their threads and
moderators, or maybe even the parties allowed to post already, to review and approve the topics. This will create additional workload
on the moderators, but I believe it won't be that much more compared to the endless reports they are receiving right now. Also, allowing
a larger base of users (recognized contributors/developers) to approve the topics will reduce the workload even further.
To prevent the spamming of existing threads, apply the same strategy as mentioned above with the following changes:
For a specific threads, the thread starter (and possibly a list of users defined by the thread starter) can either approve single
posts or users in general to being able to post in the thread. The user, after being approved, will be able to post freely in the
thread, or maybe even in all threads by the approving thread starter.
I know these are very strict rules, but since they are only applied to the dev sections, I think they are worth considering, since it
will reduce all posts made in this section to those really dealing with dev stuff. Like I already mentioned, it may increase the workload
on whatever mods/users will have to approve. This gave life to my idea of expanding this userbase to the recognized developers/contributors
as well.
I see that my concept is anything but precisely laid out, but I think it represents a good base to create a system, that will make the
dev sections of this forum what they used to be: A place where developers can develop without having to read through pages of spam and
off topic and thus be more productive and less pissed off. The approval also puts another step into the process of thread/post creation
that might make users reconsider if they really want to post or perform a simple search first.
Thanks for your time!
Also, in order for this thread to be recognized, please give it a good rating. Thank you.
aMpeX
edit: Just to make myself clear again, this approach is far from perfect, but I believe with some input and discussion, we can make it so.
Please feel free to post your opinions, corrections or extensions to this idea.
I will try to collect some ideas from the discussion to summarize it here:
Inspired by anasdcool71's post:
Give OPs the opportunity to decide whether they want to moderate their thread, or accept any comment that is made during thread creation
by ticking a checkbox for example.
Hear, hear. I have said almost exactly the same thing myself before now and couldn't agree more with your thoughts. It's not an ideal solution, but maybe XDA need to take an uber-strict approach to stop this destruction by its own users.
this topic needs ofc a lot of discussion, expecially since i know neither about the capabilities of the code nor how the owners of XDA want to approach it.
I feel by starting this discussion we can iron out a system that works.
I feel that there is simply no other solution than being a little strict on the dev sections. Users still have enough room to post in the other sections, but in the dev sections, where all the magic happens, this is not helping at all, so I think it makes sense restricting these sections in that manner.
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval. And as far as the case for spam goes, the OP may inform the particular mod to remove the posts.
anasdcool71 said:
The 2 features are quite good, but still there are certain restrictions.
For the 1st point :-
You said that RCs, RDs and other verified ranks should be allowed to create a thread. Well, most RCs have been given the rank because of their polite and courteous nature throughout the site, and some of their work on guides, ROMs and kernels. RDs are kinda the same, just that their work is an expert one. So basically Senior Members or Members create threads for their ROMs and kernels in the dev section, and then if their work is good enough, they are appointed as RCs and RDs as per the requirement. So this feature cannot extend to only RCs and RDs as it may block the opportunities of other members to become one. Even if a Senior Member is allowed in this feature to create a thread, many good rom devs, who might be new to XDA, may feel the frustration to complete not 10, but 100 posts!
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I know this approach wasn't the best. My chain of thaught was simply to try to restrict the userbase that can start a thread. To enable non RDs and RCs to start threads, I included the idea of an approval by either MODs and/or RDs and RCs. After a user has been approved once, he retains the right to start threads and post in the dev section.
I guess my bigger picture is to build a welldefined group of users allowed to post in the dev section, and also easen the way for this group to include new members, since I believe creating a new verified group and manage applications is just too much work.
anasdcool71 said:
For the 2nd point :-
The OP of the thread might not know the user himself so he might not choose users correctly. Some users holding only the Junior Member or Member title might know a lot of info about that particular rom/kernel. Furthermore, this feature will really prove tiresome for the OP as there will be a lot of users waiting for his/her approval.
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This is also a weak point of my proposition, my idea was to provide some sort of inbox where OPs can see the posts submitted and simply approve the ones he deems fit, thereby weeding out the useless information and SPAM. It is a lot of work ofc, but I, for one, would prefer a clean and moderated dev thread over one bloated with Spam.
Maybe one could let the OP decide which model he wants his thread to follow by, by simply ticking a checkbox during thread creation.
Interesting idea.
I believe I've brought up all of the above suggestions at some point or another (not dismissing or anything, just I have looked into this for a long period of time, several years now in fact!)
I'll try to summarise the benefits and disadvantages of each key suggestion:
1) Allow only "Recognized *" and above to make new threads in dev.
I'd love nothing more than this... The trouble is users wouldn't want it! They will complain if we implement this, since not every developer on XDA is an RD... Some may not have applied, some may have applied but not had it processed yet. Others may have applied and been accepted (but we only add the users to the RD group once per month to reduce time spent on it), and some may have been rejected for not meeting the criteria.
This would end up upsetting more people than it would benefit, causing more arguing and bickering from them
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
We've got a team of mods who are impartial and can deal with issues without considering if a post is "beneficial" to user perception of the developer or not (like a dev would do if he was approving posts).
We do constantly try to think of new ways to solve these problems, and you've given me a few new ones to think about
Thanks
maybe then we should focus on the part of my idea that easens the entry into the group of users that are allowed to posts, not necesarily tieing it to the RC RD status, but unblocking the restrictions individually and extending the committee to administer these admissions from MODs and Admins to RD/RCs.
This would require a one-time effort by new devs, submitting their new ROM/thread to the dev sections, and having it approved by aforementioned group.
pulser_g2 said:
2) Restrict who can post in a thread.
This is what we already aim to do with the 10 post rule. The trouble is that if we raise it, it keeps out genuine contributors. If we lower it, we get crap through. Right now, we think 10 is about the optimum, but that's not to say we're not adverse to ever changing it if needed.
The issue with giving the OP control over who can post is that some people would abuse this. For example, I don't imagine many devs who would "approve" posts critical of their ROM, or giving negative feedback on it. Part of the way XDA works is it ensures that every thread is outwith the control of its owner, so feedback isn't being hidden or removed because it isn't agreed with by the OP of the thread. That's why XDA doesn't follow the trend of a few other sites to give thread owners moderator abilities in their own threads.
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I agree totally about the 10 post limit.. As i have seen many examples of the spam/useless post by newbies/noobs who post in dev section... As our samsung galaxy y duos dev section when created had not got this restriction on it (just an accidental miss i feel).. but its corrected now.. so i have seen how worse it may get if this limit is revoked.. and i have been thinking of an idea as many times i have come across new users complaining that they know about android stuff and they wanted to help dev in development and by the time they complete 10 useful post routine valuable time will be wasted etc... So i thought of this idea when i read the op's message in this thread...
How about providing OP a option to exclude a newbie member who has not made a single post yet to make posts in dev section..? So that if the dev feels/knows the user will be good for his thread and he can contribute to development?
and lets also put another rule to keep spammers away.. as there is a loop hole in my suggestion.. which is when a spammer may create 2 accounts and in one account he will obtain 10 posts and create a thread in dev section.. then spam the thread with another account by making him exception..
So we can add this option to OP of the thread only if the thread has been say one month / one week old... as this will make sure that the thread is not created for spamming and thus it also ensures actual development is going on in the thread and the dev is known.. this exclusion is only for that thread on dev sub forum.. i dont know this may be a too much workload on server..
I was suggesting this exclusion method because i have seen around 5-10 members who PM me whenever they have some issue with my kernel or any other rom related to my device for that matter... i am happy and i have no issues to help them at all.. i have also kindly suggested them to make 10 valuable/useful posts in Q & A section and post in my threads instead of M as it might help other users too who may have same issue/doubt.. but i really cant say it directly into their faces and they may not understand my point ... so i have been interacting with such users through PM and i feel they should have interacted more with forums instead of just one person.. and there might be many others who might have contacting through PM only..
So please consider this..
Also this really is a great suggestion too...
anasdcool71 said:
@pulser_g2 - The if-else statement in your sig is really great. :good:
And I've come up with a request. I've seen that many new users don't actually know/get the reason behind the 10-post limit. I'm not talking anything particularly about spammers, but there are some good users who just don't know the reason. I've just seen so many posts in so many threads saying "this 10-post limit is so frustrating","i have to PM the dev","i can't even report a bug",etc. Not one or two or 10, but many posts like this. So my request was that they'd be directed to that thread "10-post count limit in development fora", after they register. I'm sure many of them will understand. After all, it isn't that hard to get to 10 posts.
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It's an eternal problem than,us, Admins,Mods and all Recognized Tribe against which we are constantly fighting.
In the RC'stribe, we try to think and are trying to find solutions that would enable to reduce the number of useless posts.
I says reduce, cause we can't delete all of these posts.
But the real problem, it's a mentality problem due to Internet.
Actually, with Internet, people can and wanting all, now and quickly. I'm writing a question, I want my answer now!
A large majority of users don't take the time for read and seek. They want everything quickly and now.
And against this fact, we cannot fight!!
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
pulser_g2 said:
For whoever mentioned it, the ten post message does link and explain why... But nobody reads it...
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Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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i think he means the 10 post limit sticky thread is already linked and also its explained why its there but still no new user reads it..
philos64 said:
Why ? I don't understand what you mean exactly
I have wrote a post on RC chat about this problem and send the link
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I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
pulser_g2 said:
I mean that someone mentioned perhaps making it clearer to users why they can't post etc...
I replied to say that the message already explains this and links them to a thread with information
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Sorry @pulser_g2
But I understand what you mean
It's better clear. Thanks
Moderators: I understand that this post is in the wrong forum, yet there doesn't seem to be a "XDA feedback" forum so I have no idea what the proper location is. I hope that a helpful moderator will move it to a proper location AND let me know where that location is.
XDA has changed quite a bit over the years. It used to be a "developer" forum. These days, not so much. In fact, and this is my problem, it almost feels anti-developer these days. If that's what XDA wants, great. If not, please take the time to read this message written by a developer.
I've been around XDA for a very long time. I've been a programmer for a much longer time. I think it's important to at least mention my professional qualifications, as this is (or was?) a DEVELOPERS forum, and I've been doing development for over 20 years. Going back only 10 years, I worked for Electronic Arts developing video games for both PC's and consoles. Unlike development here, game development has to be done right the FIRST time. There's no way to patch a game burned on to a cDROM for a console such as the original playstation, nor a way to fix a Nintendo64 cartrigde. (BTW, that was really a "rom" - not the firmware people call "roms" here on XDA.) I've also done quite a bit of development in various Windows CE platforms, including PocketPC (when I first started with XDA!) My current job has me doing (among other things) development on iOS, Android, and Windows Mobile. It's a very safe assumption that I'm extremely fluent with development on handheld devices.
Of course, as a hobby, I mostly work with Android these days. I've shared my work with people on XDA and rootzwiki, and when the changes could be applied to AOSP, I've shared them with CM and AOKP projects - as well as directly with Google via their gerrit system.
No, I don't have a "recognized developer" tag on XDA. I've never actually applied for it and currently have no interest in doing so. Part of my reason for that decision is that I feel XDA has given that tag out too freely. They've given it to people who don't actually do development, but just "kang" other people's work in order to collection donations. (I also don't accept donations, instead prefering people to send that money to real charities.) That's a different subject...
So, the purpose of this (already rambling) post is to try and give some feedback on the "current state" of XDA in general, of some of the moderators in particular, and to ask for a clear, consistent and easily understood set of guidelines.
I'm an engineer, and if the rules are fuzzy, it's impossible to clearly follow them.
So, here we go...
For any given phone model, there is a "general" subforum that is used for threads like "Post pictures of your phone" and "Where to buy this phone." Then there's a Q&A subforum that, I think, is where newbies are told to go to ask questions (and then other newbies respond with nasty replies.) There's a "development" subforum that, despite its name, is not to discuss development, but apparently only to post finished things. What those "things" are is a subject of debate, and I've heard many different things from different moderators. There might be an "original development" subforum which, I think, is used for development done from source (as opposed to modifying stock firmware?) Finally, a "themes and apps" subforum for theming existing work and misc applications.
There really is no place to discuss DEVELOPMENT for a device. Really, talking about the IO registers for a given device doesn't belong in the same place as "post pictures of your phone", and gets lost in the newbie questions in the Q&A subforum. Where does a developer discuss development for a specific platform? There's also no good place to share methods for doing development. For example, what's the best subforum for "HOWTO configure a N7100 kernel to work with stock firmware"? How about a thread that discusses how to modify the CSC files on a samsung firmware to enable features hidden by AT&T?
This all leads me back to the existing "development" subforum. At least for samsung devices, these generally end up being like an app-store for themed stock firmwares. (I refuse to call it a ROM when it's not "read-only.") There isn't any clear rule on what, exactly, is put in this subforum. One moderator posted "For something you CREATED." Well, not a single poster on XDA created touchwiz - they only modify it. Another moderator said "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels." Well, tweaking touchwiz isn't really "true" development, is it?
Taking those two posts together, and combining with the current reality (at least in the samsung device forums), it appears that the "development" forum is used for modified stock firmware. However, at what level? I've seen people deodex a touchwiz stock firmware, change the "build.prop" and post it in development. Others take that same deodex'd firmware, modifying a couple of apk's, and post that there. Is this "development?" If so, what about if the person only posted the apk's that they modified without forcing the users to take the entire package? I've seen this frequenty in the development forum, but apparently this is a case where some moderators have different rules than others. From a DEVELOPER point of view, the latter is better as it gives people the chance to have the modifications they want and not the ones they don't want.
You see, the "rules" are vague.
There needs to be a clear and precise set of guidelines on what these subforums are for - and those guidelines posted in the general forum rules where everyone can read them. As well, I think it would help prevent the issue of each moderator having a different interpretation of what post belongs in what forum. Oh, and if someone actually does this, please include a note telling developers where they are allowed to discuss development.
That leads, of course, to the current XDA moderators. Honestly, there are too many and they apparently aren't given clear guidance.
I'm playing around with the AT&T Note2, and I think there are currently 5-7 active moderators each enforcing their own interpretation of the rules in that forum. As a user of the forum, I've learned to expect that each moderator has a different style and different view of the rules, but at least one of those moderators isn't even consistent in his own enforcement. If two threads are nearly identical, and one is closed for "meaningless content", why isn't the other one also closed? The best part was when I sent a PRIVATE message to that moderator pointing this out, the response I got was "Sir, your thoughts should be kept to yourself." As well, this moderator informed me that "the report system on XDA is not for making a statement and or to submit feedback." (Okay... that's a new rule.) I think it's probably significant that this particular moderator seems to have something personal against me. Not sure what or why. Honestly, at this point, I don't even care why.
So, here I am as a developer. I'm on a forum called "xda-developers" (And I've been here for over 6 years.) However, I feel at this point that this "developers" forum is no longer targeting developers. In fact, it appears to be chasing them away. I've had development discussion threads shut down by non-developer moderators. I've had my threads where I share my development work moved around (out of "development".) and been told by that moderator to keep my feedback to myself. (That's from a PRIVATE MESSAGE!!!!)
Why are forums like "rootzwiki" becoming so popular? Perhaps it's due to the lack of developer friendliness here on XDA.
Personally, I REALLY hate to see XDA going this way. I've been here a long time and while I have no hope of seeing it be the way it once was, it can still be a development forum. Why isn't it?
Yes, this message is being written in response to something that happened. However, that was only the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak. This is something that's been building up for at least a year.
For now, I've pulled my contributions for the AT&T note2 down from XDA. At this point, I'm not even sure which location they should be posted in (and I have moderators telling me different things.) I'd pull down my other stuff from other devices, but most are out of date by now, so there's really no point.
As well, I have a specific moderator in this set of forums who seems to have an issue with me personally. Right now, I need to back away and cool off.
Gary - there IS an XDA general discussion forum that you apparently missed - http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=263
As to the RD tag - if you recall my currently ongoing G+ saga, I did mention that the RD program had some serious issues at the end of 2011. That was why the ERD program was created, and also why the rules for becoming an RD were made stricter/clearer about a month ago. (With the addition of RC/RT tiers, it's easier to "raise the bar" for RD since there are now lower titles available to those who don't quite make the cut.)
I think some aspects of XDA's process might need to be better documented/clearer - for example, I wasn't even aware of the "Moderator Committee" account until today. I knew there WAS a Moderator Committee, but didn't know exactly who was on it, and that there was a "catchall" account for PMing them all simultaneously.
Unfortunately, I think the rules are indeed unclear in terms of, for example, single-APK modifications. In the I9100 forums, these seem to be split 50/50 between "Themes and Apps" and "Development" - The defining line for some of these is so vague that usually, the moderators let it go unless it's obvious. For example, if you just replaced graphics assets in something, it obviously belongs in "Themes and Apps". If you did smali hacks - it's borderline. In my opinion, if you just post a smali-hacked APK, it goes in T&A. If you actually documented the process for performing the modification so others could apply it to different devices/firmware images, then it probably is justified as "Development". Knowing your past work and ethics, I'm assuming your modifications were from the latter category, however I currently can't review them.
Damn, you're right - I did miss that forum. Well, between the PM I sent to "moderator committee" and its somewhat obvious location here, I'm sure it'll get moved soon (and I'm good with that.)
As for RD - I'll save that for another day.
Take care
Gary
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
reinbeau said:
I've moved this thread into the General 'General' section. Gary has some good points, I also think it's strange that development, real development, discussions have no real place other than General, where good work can easily get lost - however, if you have an issue with a moderator you need to take that up with the moderator - you can, of course, report your issues to the Moderator Committee as Entropy has mentioned.
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Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
garyd9 said:
Ann, I TRIED taking it up with that moderator in a private message and was ripped by that person for doing so. I was told to keep my thoughts to myself and that I wasn't supposed to submit feedback.
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THAT particular issue, in my opinion, was uncalled for. (uncalled for from the Moderator you tried to work things out with, not uncalled for from you.)
Thank you for the second move. I just hope it's read by the proper people.
Take care
Gary
The correct process is to direct this sort of thing to the Moderator Committee. Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
jerdog said:
Especially make sure to include the PM from the FSM.
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Pardon my ignorance... "FSM"?
Would it be helpful to post the pmid's of the PM's sent back and forth?
(If I post the pmid's in this thread, can a moderator access them but not anyone else? I don't think it'd be appropriate to post the contents of all the PM's in a public location. I've also very carefully avoiding calling out the name of the moderator.)
Also, the issue that that moderator is only a very small part of the overall thing. If there were CLEAR rules to begin with, I think there'd be less of an issue with specific moderators.
Gary, please either forward your concerns about specific moderators to myself or another member of the moderator committee via pm when you have the chance.
Although it sometimes might not seem like it I can assure you that we intend to keep xda as developer orientated as we possibly can, however we cannot do that without feedback from people such as yourself.
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
Sorry, I see you've already sent a pm to the mod committee account. Disregard my last post. Well, the first part anyway.....
That's what I get for skimming the thread.....
Sent From My Fingers To Your Face.....
I've sent you a PM, conantroutman. If there's anything else I can do for that particular issue, please let me know.
In my post, I mentioned the inconsistency of the moderating and dealing with the so-called "Development" subforums. I had a post moved out of that subforum and was told (among other things) that "The only thing in Development will be true development. Roms and kernels."
Since that time, a few other threads have been posted in there.
One is nothing more than a deodex of the stock firmware. No "development" in running a deodex script. (I had to deodex the stuff I posted before working on it... no effort there.)
Another is (and this is some high end "development") an empty edify zip file. I'm serious. Someone made a generic .zip file that has nothing in the /system directory, but will copy everything from that (empty) directory to the device system directory.
Finally, there's a thread with modem dumps. Seriously, a "development" subforum thread containing dumps of a "dd" command.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986556
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986645
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1986480
If I'm going to be attacked and have my threads moved when they involve actual development effort (even if it's only a single apk), then I don't see how purely stock stuff or empty shells are permitted. At least what I posted changes the behavior of the device when installed.
I'm not even sure who or what to blame for this. Is it that a specific moderator was attacking my post? Was it that each moderator has a different idea of what goes where? Is it that the rules are so vague that it's perfectly reasonable for a moderator to roll dice to decide if a thread should be moved?
This message isn't to attack the posts above. Personally, I think the development subforum is a reasonable place for at least the first two. (The modem dumps should probably be a sticky in the general subforum based on what I've seen in the past.) However, based on the guidelines quoted to me by moderators of XDA, none of this stuff should be in there.
I really hope this gets addressed.
Gary
Some rather interesting points being made here which I think we, XDA, should take on board. We obviously want XDA to be easy to navigate through, plus we also want it to be easy for people to contact us (The MC) amongst others
Personally, I thought it was rather easy and straight forward, but then again I've been here for years, it may not be so easy for others, especially new users
I'm going to create a new thread in the "About XDA" forum asking for users to give feedback or recommendations on site layout, contacts, procedures etc?
I hope you add any thoughts you may have
Rick
Moderator Committee
Here's the kinds of things that this leads to:
I'd like to post a thread trying to document and catalog the CSC variables in a samsung stock firmware, how to change them, and the impacts of changing them. This single set of variables can change nearly any aspect of a phone from what settings are available for the user to what color scheme the stock email app uses.
Which subforum does it get put in? Its certainly targeted for development purposes. Does it get put into "general" (and get lost in the clutter of "Post pictures you take with your phone")? It's certainly not a theme. I have NO IDEA the proper place to put this, and now I wonder if it's easier to just not contribute to XDA than to waste my time trying to navigate the mess.
This one amuses me: There are now SEVERAL threads in that development subforum I had my stuff moved from that are nearly identical to a post I made (and which was moved out of dev.) I mentioned these via PM to one of the moderators who supported moving my stuff before. He responded that he'd look into those new posts last night. Yet, they (and many more) are still there without being moved.
What message should I take from that?
I think you're touching on one of those issues where XDA's growth has caused difficulties to manage things, and an ideal solution has yet to be determined.
For example, on the topics of how certain types of development discussion (like figuring out a register map) might not be considered "development" in the current rules even though they should be - If you don't use the current rules, what DO you use? If you're not careful, you wind up with Development subsections cluttered with threads of "Let's fix X" (even though we have no clue how) - Some users consider that "development" even if they're in WAY above their heads and the thread has zero actual development.
It helps when moderators for a forum are developers themselves. It helps them make those "grey area" calls - as a result the I9100 forums are in pretty good shape because a number of the I9100 moderators were experienced developers, and a few senior moderators/admins owned the I9100 and hence hung out in those forums. (For example: Pulser). But as XDA grows, it's harder to get FSMs that have development experience for all forums, without overloading them and frying their brains.
What's the answer? I don't know - but please keep in mind that unfortunately, for some of these, there is no easy answer.
BTW, there is some planned rework for organization of the "Development" sections that was mentioned in the "Future" part of Jerdog's "XDA: Past, Present, and Future" presentation at BABBQ. Unfortunately, issues with the conference center network prevented the talk from being recorded/streamed as was originally planned. BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
As to your example of CSC modification - I think a comprehensive guide for this WOULD be highly useful. The problem is, you know that within days, someone will see that and throw up a "hey everyone, throw this **** in your build.prop and it'll be AWESUM!!1!!!1!1!" thread... A detailed technical analysis of each entry and what it does would be something I'd consider "development" especially if some research needed to be done (including baksmali'ing, etc.) to determine something's true function - but just "OMG THIS WILL MAKE UR PHONE AWESUM!!11!!!!" threads wouldn't be... And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
Entropy512 said:
And that's the problem, how do you let the former reside in Development without the latter creeping in? Decisions like that are going to be difficult for many moderators.
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Perhaps some form of OP moderated post? Any replies are reviewed by the OP before being visible. Sadly, I don't think XDA's forum software supports this type of thing.
As an alternative, a thread locked to all but the OP. The person who started the thread states that comments/additions should be sent via PM and will be added if deemed appropriate. (I read somewhere that RD's can moderate their own threads... if true, that might be the perfect solution.)
There'd still need to be some moderation, as surely as I write this, you'll have certain people starting those types of threads everyplace one doesn't already exist regardless of their own ability to test things, etc. (Just look at how any time a new device section is added even weeks before anyone has the device, there are instantly "post your homescreens", "guide to kernels/roms" and other things the mods only allow one of.)
Oh, and Entropy512... sorry about trying to give you more work in that other thread that Fallen Spartan started.
Entropy512 said:
BTW, this is one reason I think you should apply for RD status - some issues like this are things that do get discussed in the RD forums.
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Heh - at this point, I doubt that would happen. In the past 2 days, I've managed to get quite a few people on XDA pissed at me. It's not that I've tried to, just that I got to the mental point of speaking "plainly" instead of trying to be politically correct.
As well, and to be completely fair, I haven't been posting most of my code contributions here on XDA lately. Then again, there's no good place to post things like "add support for sms messaging over bluetooth" on XDA. It's not product by itself, but something that needs to be compiled into a larger project - hence there's no home for it here.
(I'm (perhaps incorrectly assuming that the RD program on XDA depends on a certain number of things posted here on XDA.)
Hi Gary,
First of all, I'd just like to say that I've read through your posts in this thread and the "feedback/ recommendations for xda" thread and you've had some great thoughts and ideas which I reckon could definitely improve certain aspects of this site. The main problem just seems to be putting it into action and making sure the ides stays as true as possible to what it's meant to be, rather than filter off into something which will fizzle out and have nothing more mentioned about it.
Now onto the suggestion of OP moderated posts.
While this could be a great idea on other forums, I don't really think it's feasible here on XDA.
If a thread is at the stage where it may be needed for the OP to review what posts are allowed, that is the exact same moment when that idea would simply become unmanageable.
I think this because no matter what the persons "level" on XDA is, there would be too many posts to review to give them time to do anything else. This is especially true for those who are developers, not just RDs.
As a result of it being too much for them to handle, things would revert back to the system currently in place. We've then gained nothing.
The same would also ring true if OPs would need to add posts themselves, out of all the PMs they'd received. Even if the OP of a thread was happy to wade through all the PMs they receive, it's quite easy to accidentally miss some messages.
Even mods have missed a message of mine at times simply because they have loads come through. The OP would surely have even more PMs come through meaning that loads more messages could be skipped by accident.
And yes, RDs can moderate their own threads but only to the extent of closing/reopening it. They can't remove comments like moderators can.
James
''Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but absolute powerlessness does the same''
[Okay... I'm posting this because or seems like there's a lot of chatter about this issue but for some reason it doesn't seen like a damned thing had been done about it, and that's not cool in my book. And yes, I'm cross-posting this between Android Development and Original Android Development, because it effects both groups.]
Okay... Having determined that this is something that I can't fix, I submit this logcat to the group:
http://pastebin.com/Av4P7H8Q
That is the result of me opening Hangouts and placing a VOIP call to a contract. The result is the ring-to call sound continues to play after the called party picks up, and they cannot hear any sound I make. Further, hanging up results (eventually) in Hangouts crashing (but the call not actually ending until then).
As you may (or may not know) using Hangouts VOIP calls is BORKED, and it has been for several days. This seems to affect all downstream CM12 ROMs, at least for the LG G3 D851.
Take a look at that logcat... It Is a MESS. Why are cameras being called ajillionty times for making a VOIP call? Why is there no path to the necessary VOIP_MIC component? When you realize that all 8000+ lines of this comprise *only a few seconds* just how...odd...things really are.
It is my understanding that this began after a pile of CM12 commits several days ago, but I'm not certain exactly when. I seem to remember someone is $droyd$'s Illusion ROM thread had the exact date(s).
Surely amongst all the developer brainpower we have amassed here we can figure this out...
So: any ideas?
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
CrusherJoe said:
Those of you that have read my AOSPAL 5.0 thread will already know this -- so new folks, this is for you: look at my profile and you'll see I've been a member of XDA for several years, and yet I have a shockingly low post count. In fact, the vast majority of my posts here have been in relation to the AOSPAL build. My search-fu and my Google-fu are strong. I search, read, search some more then read some more until I've learned enough to figure it out. I expect everyone that loads this ROM to have strong search and reading skills, and an IQ in the triple digits. I know that somehow, though, someone is going to post questions in this thread that have been asked and answered somewhere else. Not only will I not answer it, I'll waste valuable development time smacking my forehead and staring at my laptop display in stunned disbelief. Also, it makes the baby Cthulu cry.
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You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
@NexusWarrior -- indeed, your logic is flawless. According to the rules, the "development" forums are only for posting release threads, and not for questions related to development. Therefore this post needs to be moved to the appropriate forum.
Would some kindly mod please combine the two threads and move them to the appropriate place? I would appreciate it!
Having said that, I'm going to keep it professional in regards to what appears to be trolling me for some reason I cannot fathom. I have never -- not once -- claimed an "internet title" nor have I sought preferential treatment due to the fact that I have compiled a couple of ROMs. I have never made any statements towards my skills -- or lack thereof -- as a developer. Whatever I have done to draw your ire, @NexusWarrior, I hope that publicly "shaming" me by calling me out on posting in the wrong forum has brought you some satisfaction.
NexusWarrior said:
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
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This guy is trying to solve an issue that is affecting lots people in this section and you want to give him a hard time. Mind your business and do something to contribute,if not mind your business. Sorry if this also didn't contribute. But Crusherjoe, your work is appreciated. Keep up the great work. Feel free to delete mods if need be
NexusWarrior said:
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
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Very kind of you to remind a forum contributor about "posting rules" meanwhile hangouts is still broken.....[emoji15]
I've created this post in the "dev only" forum. Please move any discussion on this subject to this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/lg-g3/devs-only/hangouts-voip-calling-broken-figure-fix-t2978600
NexusWarrior said:
Allow me to be that guy here.. You posted this in your AOSPA ROM thread stating people should basically know how to follow XDA policy.
You then proceed to ask a question which is clearly not posted in the right section, whether you believe it's development related or not. I am not doubting whatever development skills you claim to have, and I mean no offense, but regardless of these made up internet titles your post would still be in the wrong area. Furthermore, there is a "Developer Only" area that would be more appropriate. You don't have to be a developer to post in there as long as you have something useful to bring to the table. This post should likely be moved there instead.
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Seriously stfu
...
Recently, a few compilers with big mouths have been throwing accusations of KANG without knowing what it is about.
LOL.
I may not be a dev, but going by ur some recent posts no one has got bigger mouth than u, promoting yourself as greatest developer, U went to such extent that you started a thread that too in developers section. Shame on you. U are a good developer but learn to be modest.
sanjib734 said:
I may not be a dev, but going by ur some recent posts no one has got bigger mouth than u, promoting yourself as greatest developer, U went to such extent that you started a thread that too in developers section. Shame on you. U are a good developer but learn to be modest.
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Unlike a few others, I have never called anyone a fake developer and I have never promoted myself. I had never called anyone a 'kanger' until today. There are quite a few people here, who can't handle the truth. So, barking at the wrong tree (me) is no way to handle it.
Is this really necessary?
Peace...
Extremely unnecessary topic.
Congrats
optimumpro said:
Unlike a few others, I have never called anyone a fake developer and I have never promoted myself. I had never called anyone a 'kanger' until today. There are quite a few people here, who can't handle the truth. So, barking at the wrong tree (me) is no way to handle it.
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I am only against opening a thread about these things in development section. You all are mature people and should have dealt the issue in more mature ways . Now please ask any mod to remove the thread .
First as an RC, you should know the Rules, since you are citing them, This does not belong in the Development Section.
Secondly, if you have an issue with ROM's and or work, report it and allow the Staff to address, with your provided Proof.
Not becoming of an RC, to post in this manner....do not post in this manner, use the resources on XDA to make your point and or show any Rule Violations.
Thread Closed, and consider this your Warning on posting in this manner, and creating such Threads, especially in the Develpment Section.
optimumpro said:
Recently, a few compilers with big mouths have been throwing accusations of KANG without knowing what it is about.
Mod Edit
LOL.
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