Develop Bugs

Take HTC to court?

Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone had tried taking HTC to court (I'm thinking small claims court in UK) for not giving those of us who purchased our handsets outright, full access to modify the bootloader etc (ie, S-OFF)?
I'm feeling some serious righteous indignation right now and am considering it.
Thought I'd ask if anyone from here has done it, or knows anyone who has, before I look too much into it.

Simple answer, No?
It's their product, they don't have to let you modify everything.

I doubt you'd have a cause of action for not being able to tamper with your phone.
Plus, you're obviously not aware how much it costs for such litigation. Even if you did have a potential cause of action, if you lost not only would you have to pay all of your own costs but may even have to pay some of the opponent's.
In any case, as much as I think S-OFF is awesome (and I'm continuously checking this forum to see when its available) I can understand why HTC would have shipped S-ON. Every time someone mucks with the bootloader and bricks, HTC will have to deal with fraudulent warranty returns otherwise...

Samsung don't seem to bothered by it though..

Nit3m4re said:
Samsung don't seem to bothered by it though..
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My thoughts exactly, also the idea of a smartphone is like a miniature computer.
A fair number of us regularly install operating systems on those with no bother, why should it be any different on a phone.

anoniemouse said:
My thoughts exactly, also the idea of a smartphone is like a miniature computer.
A fair number of us regularly install operating systems on those with no bother, why should it be any different on a phone.
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A product is sold as it's sold. Unless they specifically advertise it being able to do something and it doesn't you have absolutely no case. Bringing a lawsuit against HTC for not making it so easy to tamper (although it's not like you can't) is like bringing a lawsuit against Microsoft for not making it easy to flash firmware onto the Xbox 360. They never said you'd be able to, even if you can — any case would be thrown out and you'd lose a lot of money. Although you're welcome to try.

TheHEFTA said:
Simple answer, No?
It's their product, they don't have to let you modify everything.
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Click to collapse
Their product, which they sold to me. Why should they have any say whatsoever on what I do with it??
ganny said:
I doubt you'd have a cause of action for not being able to tamper with your phone.
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Why not, I own it outright?
ganny said:
Plus, you're obviously not aware how much it costs for such litigation. Even if you did have a potential cause of action, if you lost not only would you have to pay all of your own costs but may even have to pay some of the opponent's.
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The small-claims court in the UK is for exactly that, small claims. In Scotland/Ireland the max compensation is £3k and England/Wales if £5k. The whole point of it is for smaller cases and that it doesn't cost a lot to file a case.
ganny said:
In any case, as much as I think S-OFF is awesome (and I'm continuously checking this forum to see when its available) I can understand why HTC would have shipped S-ON. Every time someone mucks with the bootloader and bricks, HTC will have to deal with fraudulent warranty returns otherwise...
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Nit3m4re said:
Samsung don't seem to bothered by it though..
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Exactly, its only HTC that make it so bloody difficult to modify your phone the way you want. Why would they be faced with a bigger problem than Samsung etc?
anoniemouse said:
My thoughts exactly, also the idea of a smartphone is like a miniature computer.
A fair number of us regularly install operating systems on those with no bother, why should it be any different on a phone.
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Click to collapse
Exactly! If I bought a PC and I wasn't allowed to change or even modify the OS, I'd be pissed.
Ryan J Williams said:
A product is sold as it's sold. Unless they specifically advertise it being able to do something and it doesn't you have absolutely no case.
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Bullcrap. See my analogy below...
Ryan J Williams said:
Bringing a lawsuit against HTC for not making it so easy to tamper (although it's not like you can't) is like bringing a lawsuit against Microsoft for not making it easy to flash firmware onto the Xbox 360. They never said you'd be able to, even if you can.
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True, but the legality of MS preventing the modification of your own xbox is highly questionable at best...
In this thread, I see a lot of negativity, do any of you actually want S-OFF on your phones?
We're not going to get it unless we ask and there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't have it on phones we own.
Here's an analogy I was thinking of.
Say you buy a house and once you've paid and moevd in etc you realise the garage and the basement are locked.
You contact the company that built and sold you the house and they say that's right, that's how its meant to be.
You speak to your neighbours and they're in the same boat and none of you are happy about it.
So you all band together and complain to the company and they relent and say "OK, we'll unlock everything".
You feel vindicated and not long after you get a key in the post that opens the garage but not the basement.
Are you happy?
Of course not.
You want full access to the house you bought, and rightly so.
HTC know they've no right to lock you out of your own phone.
That's why they relented and gave us HTC Unlock but it's nigh on pointless without S-OFF.
And since they force you to accept you're voiding your warranty by unlocking, the comment about increased warranty returns is unlikely.
So, my thoughts are, if I, or anyone else files a claim in the small claims court for nothing more than the value of their phone, it will send HTC a strong message.
If that claim is successful, it sends them an even stronger message and opens the door for others to follow suit after setting the precedent.
I know its unlikely to be plain sailing but its not going to happen unless we try...

airchie said:
Here's an analogy I was thinking of.
Say you buy a house and once you've paid and moevd in etc you realise the garage and the basement are locked.
You contact the company that built and sold you the house and they say that's right, that's how its meant to be.
You speak to your neighbours and they're in the same boat and none of you are happy about it.
So you all band together and complain to the company and they relent and say "OK, we'll unlock everything".
You feel vindicated and not long after you get a key in the post that opens the garage but not the basement.
Are you happy?
Of course not.
You want full access to the house you bought, and rightly so.
HTC know they've no right to lock you out of your own phone.
That's why they relented and gave us HTC Unlock but it's nigh on pointless without S-OFF.
And since they force you to accept you're voiding your warranty by unlocking, the comment about increased warranty returns is unlikely.
So, my thoughts are, if I, or anyone else files a claim in the small claims court for nothing more than the value of their phone, it will send HTC a strong message.
If that claim is successful, it sends them an even stronger message and opens the door for others to follow suit after setting the precedent.
I know its unlikely to be plain sailing but its not going to happen unless we try...
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Well said & pointed out i agree with you

People took apple to court over jailbreaking, they claimed it was illegal as if was modifying it to run out of toc (should check reason why I believe that's right) but judge ruled against apple making jailbreaking legal in the US.
However HTC have got to keep devices as s-on due to contracts, debranding it would lose carriers money.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA Premium HD app

treebill said:
However HTC have got to keep devices as s-on due to contracts, debranding it would lose carriers money
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I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify that?
My phone isn't branded (other than the HTC logo) and not on contract and I use a PAYG SIM.
The phone is outright mine and I'm not sure how giving me S-OFF would lose anyone money?

treebill said:
People took apple to court over jailbreaking, they claimed it was illegal as if was modifying it to run out of toc (should check reason why I believe that's right) but judge ruled against apple making jailbreaking legal in the US.
However HTC have got to keep devices as s-on due to contracts, debranding it would lose carriers money.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA Premium HD app
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Fair enough for branded phones, but unbranded ones there is no excuse for HTC not to make them s-off

Jailbreaking is done on top of the stock operating system, not replacing it, so it's not a comparable argument. HTC have the right to not allow mods to the system because they provide a warranty on the device when it's sold. No they won't sift through users whose warranty has expired, resources would be better used elsewhere.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app

AUXRVIII said:
Jailbreaking is done on top of the stock operating system, not replacing it, so it's not a comparable argument. HTC have the right to not allow mods to the system because they provide a warranty on the device when it's sold. No they won't sift through users whose warranty has expired, resources would be better used elsewhere.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
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I wasn't implying that its the same more that people have taken a company as big as apple and won.
Sent from my HTC One X using XDA Premium HD app

airchie said:
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone had tried taking HTC to court (I'm thinking small claims court in UK) for not giving those of us who purchased our handsets outright, full access to modify the bootloader etc (ie, S-OFF)?
I'm feeling some serious righteous indignation right now and am considering it.
Thought I'd ask if anyone from here has done it, or knows anyone who has, before I look too much into it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only way you could go after HTC is if they documented a feature as being available and then didn't provide it. "S-Off" isn't a feature, it's part of the phones infrastructure as HTC ships it. Nothing is compromised in the use of the phone as it's shipped whether it's S-off or S-on so you're not being deprived of anything HTC intended to provide. In others words, based on the way HTC describes the phone, you've gotten what you paid for so there's no "harm" to justify a lawsuit. I'm not defending HTC's choice, but it's their choice to make. The simple solution is to not buy their phones.

I don't see the point of taking HTC to court. The comparison of Apple and HTC doesn't make sense. Apple doesn't want you to jailbreak period, while HTC is more open. To me, HTC s-on for a reason, if the users know they're doing, and gets s-off then good for them. Not like HTC will call you or send you a note that you'll get sued for getting s-off on your device. Just wait patiently for xmoo and Football to find the way to s-off, they are making good progress anyways.
BarryH_GEG said:
The only way you could go after HTC is if they documented a feature as being available and then didn't provide it. "S-Off" isn't a feature, it's part of the phones infrastructure as HTC ships it. Nothing is compromised in the use of the phone as it's shipped whether it's S-off or S-on so you're not being deprived of anything HTC intended to provide. In others words, based on the way HTC describes the phone, you've gotten what you paid for so there's no "harm" to justify a lawsuit. I'm not defending HTC's choice, but it's their choice to make. The simple solution is to not buy their phones.
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I completely agree with you.

AUXRVIII said:
Jailbreaking is done on top of the stock operating system, not replacing it, so it's not a comparable argument.
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Its a large corporation trying to exert control over a device they've sold and have no legal right to try to control.
AUXRVIII said:
HTC have the right to not allow mods to the system because they provide a warranty on the device when it's sold. No they won't sift through users whose warranty has expired, resources would be better used elsewhere.
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Click to collapse
If that's the case, why do they make you invalidate your warranty to use HTC Unlock? And they can clearly see if a phone's been unlocked as we can't re-lock them. And it only takes common sense to see a manufacturing defect isn't caused by modifying software. There is nothing that justifies the way HTC are acting over this.
BarryH_GEG said:
The only way you could go after HTC is if they documented a feature as being available and then didn't provide it.
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How so?
BarryH_GEG said:
"S-Off" isn't a feature, it's part of the phones infrastructure as HTC ships it. Nothing is compromised in the use of the phone as it's shipped whether it's S-off or S-on so you're not being deprived of anything HTC intended to provide.
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Something is compromised, my ability to modify my phone in the way I want to.
BarryH_GEG said:
In others words, based on the way HTC describes the phone, you've gotten what you paid for so there's no "harm" to justify a lawsuit. I'm not defending HTC's choice, but it's their choice to make. The simple solution is to not buy their phones.
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Click to collapse
So by what you say there, you think HTC has a right to prevent me doing what I like to the phone I own? To me, that's like saying Ford has the right to stop me changing the wheels on my car.
gwuhua1984 said:
I don't see the point of taking HTC to court. The comparison of Apple and HTC doesn't make sense. Apple doesn't want you to jailbreak period, while HTC is more open. To me, HTC s-on for a reason, if the users know they're doing, and gets s-off then good for them. Not like HTC will call you or send you a note that you'll get sued for getting s-off on your device.
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Click to collapse
The comparison of Apple and HTC is very valid. They're both trying to exert control over hardware they've sold when they have no right to do so. A fact proven by the Apple case.
gwuhua1984 said:
Just wait patiently for xmoo and Football to find the way to s-off, they are making good progress anyways.
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My point is, we shouldn't have to wait for some enterprising users to break bast HTC's deliberate locking down of our phones. Especially if they provide the unlock option.
All I'm seeing in this thread is people saying things like "I'm not defending HTC but..." or "Why bother fighting for your rights..." etc.
Well, I think we should fight for what we want instead of rolling over and taking it.
The reason HTC, Apple et al all do these things is because they get away with them through apathy like has been shown in this thread, it makes me sad.

A stance has to be taken by a manufacturer of a product regardless of what it is, this sort of thing is not only restricted to mobile devices. If a company like HTC sets it conditions of use under warranty and consumers challenge them, then the company cops negative publicity regardless of the result, so its alway a no win situation. If you feel HTC are wrong in what they are doing then get a job there and change it or start up your own company and see if you want to risk your intellectual property.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app

airchie said:
All I'm seeing in this thread is people saying things like "I'm not defending HTC but..." or "Why bother fighting for your rights..." etc.
Well, I think we should fight for what we want instead of rolling over and taking it.
The reason HTC, Apple et al all do these things is because they get away with them through apathy like has been shown in this thread, it makes me sad.
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Click to collapse
I don't think any of us are thrilled with the absence of S-OFF. The thread is about whether or not it's worth taking HTC to court over it, and my answer to that is 'no'. I don't have the money, I don't have the time, and I probably won't stand a chance because as has been pointed out repeatedly now a company is only obligated to provide the features they specified it'd include.
I often buy expensive sound equipment. Sometimes I like to replace parts with custom hardware, but with some equipment this isn't possible due to proprietary parts being used, or things not being feasibly removable. Could I take the manufacturer's to court over this? Well, yes. Would I win? Doubtful. They've provided me exactly what they advertised, the fact I can't do extra tinkering with it isn't their problem. And if I want to do it badly enough I'll probably figure it out (and void my warranty in the process so they don't have to deal with my screw-up).
As you feel so strongly about it, why don't you take the stand and go get a lawsuit rolling? I'm sure you'll get people to sign any petitions or whatever. Unfortunately I doubt many of us have the financial resources to commit to it too. :good:

LOL
For every response suggesting that OP cannot/ should not sue HTC, he has simply come up w an argument rebutting it. I'd like to see he goes ahead and does it and gets any result out of it. Is the outcome desirable for you all? Perhaps yes. But is there a practical mechanism to achieve that goal via litigation? I'd say not. But if OP doesnt trust the opinions offered, why bother posting something on here at all? Overall if you're serious about courts actions you should be talking to a lawyer not asking people's opinions on the internet.

I think youd have more success sueing them for charging for build defect repairs just because the phone is unlocked.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium

[Q] Why is it locked?

So I have a couple general questions I wanted to get your guys take on.
Why does Verizon choose to have there phones locked down? The HTC One in particular but generally as well. Is it a method of preserving/increasing profit? Perceived threat to their network? Something else?
A follow up question which depends on how you feel about the first question. Are Verizon's reasons for locking down phones justified? Do you feel they have a right to do this? If you were a strictly moral person, do you have any dilemmas about this?
PS As a side note, I love having my phones unlocked with custom roms, and I am looking forward to getting my sonic S-Off back.

beardedYoga said:
So I have a couple general questions I wanted to get your guys take on.
Why does Verizon choose to have there phones locked down? The HTC One in particular but generally as well. Is it a method of preserving/increasing profit? Perceived threat to their network? Something else?
A follow up question which depends on how you feel about the first question. Are Verizon's reasons for locking down phones justified? Do you feel they have a right to do this? If you were a strictly moral person, do you have any dilemmas about this?
PS As a side note, I love having my phones unlocked with custom roms, and I am looking forward to getting my sonic S-Off back.
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People screwing up their phones by crack flashing, and returning them to verizon for warranty when bricked.
Control of tethering.

Yeah, they say it's for the reasons above.
But given that, to begin with, the rooting community is a tiny slice of all mobile phone users, and then Verizon users are an even smaller portion of that. So I don't see why they even care. I highly doubt that even if ever single Verizon customer who does rooting messed up their expensive device it would cost Verizon more than .01% of their revenue, if even that.

It's all about quality control. Even if it is the fact that the vast minority root their phones, it's the minority of users who generate the majority of complaints (and that rule extends FAR beyond cell phone rooting, or cell phones in general). It takes 10 good comments to make up for one bad comment these days, and there just aren't enough good comments to go around.
How likely is it, if your unrooted phone has no physical damage that you'll suddenly find that it isn't booting up? How likely is it that, even if you don't want to do it, factory resetting your unrooted phone will fix whatever problem you're having?
Big Red's reputation, their entire brand, is built on reliability. NOT freedom.

beardedYoga said:
So I have a couple general questions I wanted to get your guys take on.
Why does Verizon choose to have there phones locked down? The HTC One in particular but generally as well. Is it a method of preserving/increasing profit? Perceived threat to their network? Something else?
A follow up question which depends on how you feel about the first question. Are Verizon's reasons for locking down phones justified? Do you feel they have a right to do this? If you were a strictly moral person, do you have any dilemmas about this?
PS As a side note, I love having my phones unlocked with custom roms, and I am looking forward to getting my sonic S-Off back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey guys feel free to elaborate as much as possible. I'm writing a term paper on unlocking bootloaders/s-off, legalities on our part and Verizon, security risk for us/Carrier, risks taken by us/Verizon, etc.. It's for a Information Security Course. I'll be creating a thread at some point but this is a good start for some sources!

Another point would be that Verizon tries to cater to business/enterprise customers so allowing bootloader unlocking could pose a giant security flaw on devices that have classified data and are meant to be secure
Sent from my One using xda app-developers app

I think it's far less about tethering for free. They fixed that with getting rid of unlimited data. They saw they can make more money on teired data plans with coverages. Plus I am amazed at how many people on here has given up on their unlimited data plans just to get a subsidized phone.
Locked down phones is for more like people who roots and doesn't know what they are doing so they brick their phones and Verizon takes a hit having to replace it under warranty. Plus the security reasons companies are looking for. They don't want a phone that could be hacked in to giving away possible secret info. Last but not least is to keep people from taking their phones and flashing it to another carrier as we seen a few people has done on here and other forums. It's money they are not receiving and they want to put a stop to it.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk 4

I think they do it for tethering. Although you can use foxfi, root tethering is not stoppable unless verizon uses packet sniffing but even so, unlimited data is unlimited data. They also do it for security reasons as unlocking a corporate phone can be bad.

I will admit, I skimmed all posts and see that most everyone has bought into what they want us to believe.
If it is to prevent unwanted warranty claims, then why would they not allow us to willingly void our warranty via HTCdev when we click the box that says so?
Rather then resort to undocumented or traceable ways of doing so in which case they are stuck with more returns for soft bricks, etc,..and are stuck accepting them because they chose to not take the easy way and let us void our warranty to begin with.
I just think all that warranty replacement crap is a bunch of nonsense and can't be their main incentive.
If it is, then they have their heads buried deeper then I thought and need to realize what I just stated above...

A really good friend of mine has been a tech with sprint for nearly a decade. From what he has told me, about 27 of 100 phones they can't fix are due to installing non official software. While that's not the highest percentage with damage as the worst, it still is very costly for them to replace. Most of the guys he works with can tell if a phone has been "tampered" with. Even with such things as triangle away with the Samsung lines, they still can find out. Having a locked boot loader on this phone is just one way of attempting to slow the numbers.
As he would put it, most people who do try flashing and other modification methods have very little experience with the phones and their inner workings. A lot of these people end up bricking their phones and try turning them in for insurance claims or warranty which he deals with. He actually saved me some coin by getting me a screen for one of my s2's from a completely fried emmc that he says someone tried a bad flash with.
But yeah, keeping the people like that out of the phones is one of the major reasons as it can become costly to them... I call bs though, considering the amount of profit they actually make on each one of our accounts.
Sent from my One in Blue!

You are exactly right.
To be honest, there isn't much of a business case for a carrier, when serving as the reseller of a phone, to offer the freedom of an unlocked boot loader. The savvy of the general populace hasn't yet reached the point where the downside is offset by a marketable upside. Hell, most folks still **** around happily with iPhones which lack any freedom whatsoever.
TidusWulf said:
It's all about quality control. Even if it is the fact that the vast minority root their phones, it's the minority of users who generate the majority of complaints (and that rule extends FAR beyond cell phone rooting, or cell phones in general). It takes 10 good comments to make up for one bad comment these days, and there just aren't enough good comments to go around.
How likely is it, if your unrooted phone has no physical damage that you'll suddenly find that it isn't booting up? How likely is it that, even if you don't want to do it, factory resetting your unrooted phone will fix whatever problem you're having?
Big Red's reputation, their entire brand, is built on reliability. NOT freedom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

We can speculate all we want here. Verizon says they lock phones because it's better for the network.
http://bgr.com/2012/03/02/verizon-explains-locked-bootloader-stance-in-letter-to-fcc/
Whether or not anyone chooses to believe that is a matter of opinion, but this is pretty much as close to an answer from Verizon that we'll ever get.
Sent from my HTC One.

Very enlightening.
To comment on wanting the phones to be secure for corporate security... wouldn't the amazing track record of dev's who contribute here and other places sort of fly right in the face of that.
It seems that every single device that gains enough users has some kind of workaround or vulnerability to allow it to be unlocked. If the corporate world was worried about it, all they are doing is showing just how unable to lock it down the manufactures and carriers are.

Blah, blah, blah.... the network. that is just their excuse. They used it with the FTC to get by with rate limiting the LTE network. Some lame a$$ excuse about the CDMA legacy junk. Don't get me wrong I am sure that the old CDMA stuff may make the network less predictable, but not less stable. It is all about money, and VZW is the 800 pound gorilla that get to control what we have to deal with. Thank goodness we have talented and dedicated developers that almost always get around the blockades these fools put in place.

+1
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk now Free

From what I was told over at elevate, the biggest problem they don't want to expierence again is our phones not being able to dial to the correct 911 dispatch. There apparently was an incident where a rooting user had a modified dialer apk that didn't allow him dial to the correct dispatch. In an emergency for Verizon that is worse case scenario. Then there's a lawsuit that might be filed to both HTC and Verizon.

CNexus said:
Yeah, they say it's for the reasons above.
But given that, to begin with, the rooting community is a tiny slice of all mobile phone users, and then Verizon users are an even smaller portion of that. So I don't see why they even care. I highly doubt that even if ever single Verizon customer who does rooting messed up their expensive device it would cost Verizon more than .01% of their revenue, if even that.
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Click to collapse
Gotta disagree. When you see people in this forum bragging about getting seven replacements, it does add up.
And it really is a PITA to figure out if it was user error or something wrong with the phone. It's all about risk mgmt
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk 4

[Q] s-off: only sunshine method?

hi. i've a "recent" m8. i've tried to s-off with firewater method but it doesn't run. the only method that work is sunshine, but, IMHO, $25 it's too much for a "simply" tool (firewater was FREE!!). there is a third method? or my only alternative is relock the phone and wait a free tool (if it ever comes out)?

sirio87s said:
hi. i've a "recent" m8. i've tried to s-off with firewater method but it doesn't run. the only method that work is sunshine, but, IMHO, $25 it's too much for a "simply" tool (firewater was FREE!!). there is a third method? or my only alternative is relock the phone and wait a free tool (if it ever comes out)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, Sunshine is your only way. Firewater was 'free' but I donated to the Devs as they put a ton of work in to develop the exploits to give us S-OFF. $25 is cheap IMO

EddyOS said:
Nope, Sunshine is your only way. Firewater was 'free' but I donated to the Devs as they put a ton of work in to develop the exploits to give us S-OFF. $25 is cheap IMO
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Click to collapse
i donate my little contribute to venom team (i use the viper rom) for example, but, i repeat, imho $25 is too much for a tool that rest for that specific phone (for example, if it was a app, you must install the app on all your phones/tabs!)....

sirio87s said:
i donate my little contribute to venom team (i use the viper rom) for example, but, i repeat, imho $25 is too much for a tool that rest for that specific phone (for example, if it was a app, you must install the app on all your phones/tabs!)....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're entitled to your opinion, but in this instance there's no other way of gaining S-OFF so you have no choice if you want it...

If you update your M8 yes
sirio87s said:
hi. i've a "recent" m8. i've tried to s-off with firewater method but it doesn't run. the only method that work is sunshine, but, IMHO, $25 it's too much for a "simply" tool (firewater was FREE!!). there is a third method? or my only alternative is relock the phone and wait a free tool (if it ever comes out)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I updated via OTA my M8 so the firewater method doesn't work, I tried with sunshine method and works great :good:

I'm sorry but I have to laugh at these threads. These devs do this work for nothing. Sacrifice maybe jobs and family sleep and money to supply these methods for users. 25dollars is nothing if you bought the phone SIM free or even contract

snwman said:
I'm sorry but I have to laugh at these threads. These devs do this work for nothing. Sacrifice maybe jobs and family sleep and money to supply these methods for users. 25dollars is nothing if you bought the phone SIM free or even contract
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Click to collapse
Absolutely agree, don't bother if you dont want to pay what is imo no different to paying for a network unlock code which is what you will also get with s-off. Do you realise how much hard work goes into things like this?
How often do you offer your services for free?!
You have a choice, no S-off or stump up and pay the developers a small amount for many many hours of hard work to completely unlock your phone.

EddyOS said:
They offered it for free but had the option to donate. Now, clearly people didn't donate as, if they did, they wouldn't have to charge as the donations would cover the bricked device, etc. Now, if you don't wanna pay that's your choice but they're not gonna change the price so it's that or nothing
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Click to collapse
i've understand and i've decided to relock the phone (the red text is enervating!). the sense is beautiful and the phone work great. peace!

For me was $25 well spent. Decided to do it now because who knows what's to come with updates... Made that mistake before a few years back and got stuck not being able to on a different model after update.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

its because we're so spoiled here on XDA, with all the great roms,tweaks,kernels, and more that are offered to us for free, that some folks freak out when something comes along they actually have to PAY for.
funny how people can come up with 700 dollars for a phone, but if it costs a small fraction of that to buy something that would enhance their experience, and help further the development of their device, they cant do it.

did anyone have tried it with the latest firmware 2.22

still waiting for 2.22 firmware to come to my tmobile phone..

Ok I get it...I think he's right I mean $25 is a lot and since there are tons of people that are buying a m8 and rooting it the devs should of charged $10 max..they are making more than enough off sunshine and tbh it's way more difficult to port roms over with tweaks then to create an s off tool. To be honest fire water should update s off and yes it should be free...s off is basically free for every other phone

gator9422 said:
Ok I get it...I think he's right I mean $25 is a lot and since there are tons of people that are buying a m8 and rooting it the devs should of charged $10 max..they are making more than enough off sunshine and tbh it's way more difficult to port roms over with tweaks then to create an s off tool. To be honest fire water should update s off and yes it should be free...s off is basically free for every other phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cents
I agree that $25 sounds like a lot, maybe they decided to charge that because it works on phones that firewater cannot s-off. who knows... but the real question is, what decides the price of their efforts? Is that the client or the developer? what clause makes you decide that $25 is too much or not? I paid the $25 without hesitation of is too much or not. My motivation was: do I want the stupid red banner go away or not? For me it was a go with the flow and pay.
Comparing $25 to an app that normally rounds no more than $5, yes it is too much but thinking what did they do better and how many hours did they pass thinking, coding, testing, screwing up phones just to make this sw work where firewater didn't? that;s a different story.
Everyone can make their own decisions and I respect them, just don't judge too quickly whether something is too expensive or not as nobody but the developers know what took place to make something work. :good:

jmoneste said:
how many hours did they pass thinking, coding, testing, screwing up phones
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can't blame the devs for wanting to be compensated for their time and effort. Now of course, the issue is that many devs give that time and effort for no fee at all. So to go from "free" all the way up to $25, the sticker shock is understandable. I tend to agree that a $5 or $10 price would have gone over a lot better. Although I don't disagree with your points at all.

and, I believe they bought a couple of phones to work on, so at 650 each, plus tax and delivery, and suddenly its 1400.00 or more..plus the time to work on it..
makes complaining about 25 bucks seem pretty lame, doesn't it?

Sunshine is the only method that works for all variants of the m8 (apparently). Firewater was developed by the same devs that made sunshine.
IMHO $25 is nothing to achieve S-OFF. Think of it like this (This is probably underestimating this by a butt load but.....)
2 devs have spent (for example) 100 hours each on this. That's 200 man hours. If you charge their time out at $15 per hour that is a sum of $3000 just in their time applied. (personally $15 is very low for the skillset I think but it keeps them in crisps and coffee)
In building this they have killed 4 devices and got it working on the 5th. Thats 5 devices at $650 each (not including tax and shipping I believe)
5 x 650 = $3250
Add this to the $3000 in man hours which comes to $6250. $6250 to develop this!!!!!
If you divide that by the $25 they charge then 250 people have to pay for it just to break even. And like I've said, I'm pretty sure I've underestimated this by loads. Would any of you seriously spend that time and money to develop something like this then dish it out for free? Doubt it.
There's seems to be too many 'I wants' on here now. People who want to mod their phone but don't have the time or patience to let the devs do what they do. It's nothing short of brilliant some of the works that go on on here. I've been here since the HTC magic when rooting the thing took about 3 days. You had to downgrade H-boots, make gold cards etc etc and now there are hundreds of tools FOR FREE that do all this for us but there are still a minority who want more. There will come a time when the devs stop. They will give up because all the joy they got from hacking, sharing exploits and building roms will be sucked out of it by the 'I wants'. No body wants that to happen because of the amazing work they create.
I get that people have their own opinions and that is fine, and I get that $25 is a lot of money to some people, but personally, if you don't like the fact they are charging $25, don't pay it. Its simple. Don't come on here and moan about it!!
Just my two cents like.....

I paid the $25 and it's worth it, worked perfect and now S off. I'm a pensioner and you all complain about $25

3484jacks said:
2 devs have spent (for example) 100 hours each on this. That's 200 man hours. If you charge their time out at $15 per hour that is a sum of $3000 just in their time applied. (personally $15 is very low for the skillset I think but it keeps them in crisps and coffee)
In building this they have killed 4 devices and got it working on the 5th. Thats 5 devices at $650 each (not including tax and shipping I believe)
5 x 650 = $3250
Add this to the $3000 in man hours which comes to $6250. $6250 to develop this!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are plenty of developers that put forth the same effort, and don't "charge" a penny. Time per hour is one way to think of it (and time is certainly a valuable commodity), but also remember that many devs put in the time because they love to do it and don't expect or want to be paid.
Bricking multiple devices in the process makes the cost a little more understandable. But again, other "amateur" devs have bricked devices in their efforts as well. And when I use the term "amateur" I don't mean it as someone with less skill (as the term is sometimes used to imply), but someone who engages in an activity purely for their love/passion of it, not for money.
Not arguing or complaining. Personally, $25 is not a unreasonable price to pay. But I can understand folks that don't like it, or choose not to pay it. IMO both sides of the discussion have valid points, and its just a matter of opinion and point of view.

redpoint73 said:
There are plenty of developers that put forth the same effort, and don't "charge" a penny. Time per hour is one way to think of it (and time is certainly a valuable commodity), but also remember that many devs put in the time because they love to do it and don't expect or want to be paid.
Bricking multiple devices in the process makes the cost a little more understandable. But again, other "amateur" devs have bricked devices in their efforts as well. And when I use the term "amateur" I don't mean it as someone with less skill (as the term is sometimes used to imply), but someone who engages in an activity purely for their love/passion of it, not for money.
Not arguing or complaining. Personally, $25 is not a unreasonable price to pay. But I can understand folks that don't like it, or choose not to pay it. IMO both sides of the discussion have valid points, and its just a matter of opinion and point of view.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely mate. Putting a 'time per hour' spin on it probably is a bit off course but it was to illustrate a point more than anything . Your right, most do it for love and its brilliant they do, it just grates me a bit when the minority complain about stuff their getting for nothing (apart from this obviously). And having just done it today, it is without doubt the most pain free S-OFF procedure I've ever done. Well worth the money.

[Q] Sunshine S-OFF Question

So I rooted my HTC One (M8) using the all in one toolkit, which just roots the stock phone using the HTCDev bootloader unlocker thing (signing in to HTCDev, getting your phones code, all that good stuff). I tried firewater, and I couldn't obtain S-OFF using that. So, I downloaded Sunshine onto my phone and it got to the screen where it tells me to pay (by the way, I feel $25 is ridiculous considering all of this for older devices was free), does this mean that it's compatible with my root? I see a lot of people do this with Insert Coin installed and stuff, but I don't want to flash something and have to re-download all of my apps and everything again. So, my question is, can you use Sunshine with a stock-rooted M8 with the bootloader unlocked via HTCDev?

Yes you need a near as possible stock Rom with root to do that...it will work 100% fine..

One-M8-Master said:
Yes you need a near as possible stock Rom with root to do that...it will work 100% fine..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"near stock"? That's what I'm confused on. I have stock ROM, just rooted.
Software Info:
Android Version - 4.4.2
HTC Sense Version - 6.0
Software Number - 1.58.502.1
HTC SDK API Level - 6.17
Kernel Version:
3.4.0-gaabcaed
[email protected] #1
SMP PREEMPT
*** UNLOCKED ***
M8_UL_CA PVT SHIP S-ON
HBOOT-3.16.0.0000
Can I use Sunshine with this?

Stock is perfect then, about as near to stock as it can be ?

If it prompts you for payment, that means it's compatible with your phone & ROM. I asked this in their irc.

drizzy_Drake said:
So, I downloaded Sunshine onto my phone and it got to the screen where it tells me to pay (by the way, I feel $25 is ridiculous considering all of this for older devices was free), does this mean that it's compatible with my root? I see a lot of people do this with Insert Coin installed and stuff, but I don't want to flash something and have to re-download all of my apps and everything again. So, my question is, can you use Sunshine with a stock-rooted M8 with the bootloader unlocked via HTCDev?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Funny how you feel its ridiculous to have to "pay" for something the dev worked on for hours and hours, on his own time, but you think its just fine and dandy to ask for support here for your question, for "free"..
Its people like you that make the dev's not want to share things they come up with for THEMSELVES with the rest of us..
And learn how to search, since the answer to your question has been posted many times, and you only want "free" service...

wase4711 said:
Funny how you feel its ridiculous to have to "pay" for something the dev worked on for hours and hours, on his own time, but you think its just fine and dandy to ask for support here for your question, for "free"..
Its people like you that make the dev's not want to share things they come up with for THEMSELVES with the rest of us..
And learn how to search, since the answer to your question has been posted many times, and you only want "free" service...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my 4th Android phone, and its also the fourth phone I've ever rooted. But its the first I've ever had to pay something for. There's all kinds of developers and people who make stuff for this, from unlocking bootloader to rooting. Hell, HTC themselves don't make you pay to do what's necessary to do ANY of this. This is the first developer I've seem to make you pay for one of the many little things rooting your phone requires. They're making you pay a hefty amount for one thing. Even ten dollars would've made more sense. Maybe I'm being cheap and ignorant, but like I stated first, after many years of many developers and phones able to be rooted (I'll even throw in how every jailbreak program for apple products), this is the first one I've seen to make you pay. And $25 at that.

Get used to it; is a different world now a days..
Considering all of your 8 posts have been nothing but you asking for free help for your problems, I wouldn't complain about paying for ANYTHING here on XDA until you become a contributor and not just a "taker"..

drizzy_Drake said:
This is my 4th Android phone, and its also the fourth phone I've ever rooted. But its the first I've ever had to pay something for. There's all kinds of developers and people who make stuff for this, from unlocking bootloader to rooting. Hell, HTC themselves don't make you pay to do what's necessary to do ANY of this. This is the first developer I've seem to make you pay for one of the many little things rooting your phone requires. They're making you pay a hefty amount for one thing. Even ten dollars would've made more sense. Maybe I'm being cheap and ignorant, but like I stated first, after many years of many developers and phones able to be rooted (I'll even throw in how every jailbreak program for apple products), this is the first one I've seen to make you pay. And $25 at that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I semi agree with this post except. I don't expect developers to just give out there hard work. Yes that has been the trend for the past few years but I also see where the developer is coming from. Do I think $25 is a bit much? Yes but him/her asking for a little return for something the average Joe can't do and the benefits from it outweigh the cost.
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using XDA Free mobile app

The 25$ are not that much if you think about what he/they had to do...they used phones and tools where they had to pay too...so instead of giving it out for free and even losing that much money they are taking a bit from the community so they can improve the tool more and more to get s-off...soon even m7 will be possible to s-off...I think this week or so...they are really working hard on it as it is going to be harder to unlock the phone so that we can unbrand etc...so I think the 25$ are really worth it...

One-M8-Master said:
The 25$ are not that much if you think about what he/they had to do...they used phones and tools where they had to pay too...so instead of giving it out for free and even losing that much money they are taking a bit from the community so they can improve the tool more and more to get s-off...soon even m7 will be possible to s-off...I think this week or so...they are really working hard on it as it is going to be harder to unlock the phone so that we can unbrand etc...so I think the 25$ are really worth it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I agree. Just read an article on it. Just shelled out the $25 and now I'm s-off. Finally lol
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using XDA Free mobile app

$25 or $600 developer edition? $25 = more than fair!

Not many people are prepared to pay for $25 for s-off. The developer would get more money if he was selling it for about $10 as more people would be prepared to buy it.

In the end it's really a matter of choice and decisions. The developer decided to sell for $XX
You have a choice. Either pay the $XX or stay as is. If you really need s-off then you must also be willing to pay for it.
Simple as that.

Kahun said:
Not many people are prepared to pay for $25 for s-off. The developer would get more money if he was selling it for about $10 as more people would be prepared to buy it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The idea that vendors can always "make it up on volume" is a fallacy.
Good vendors experiment with price to try and see where income is maximised. I've done that with my Android apps.
Semi-regularly I hear from people who say "make it up on volume". I'm the one who's done the testing and analysed the results. I'm the one who is "living the reality", day in and day out. They just have a vague idea about price, based on their own speculation, and perhaps their own self interest in seeing a lower price.

mikereidis said:
The idea that vendors can always "make it up on volume" is a fallacy.
Good vendors experiment with price to try and see where income is maximised. I've done that with my Android apps.
Semi-regularly I hear from people who say "make it up on volume". I'm the one who's done the testing and analysed the results. I'm the one who is "living the reality", day in and day out. They just have a vague idea about price, based on their own speculation, and perhaps their own self interest in seeing a lower price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand where you coming from. Every successful product needs to reach the break even point. After that you can experiment with the price. Such as do a discount on a certain week or a day.

So I have a silly question, First I have only ever rooted 1 phone prior to this, S3, Now I have my htc one m8, Used weaksauce, worked for me to enable power saving mode, now my phone is no longer rooted, So the question is will sunshine, root, my phone and turn the S-OFF? Thanks

I agree that $25 is steep. I'd consider $5 to $10 but even then I'm like "I don't know" because I have tried a lot of this type of crap and bricked devices. I bricked 3 M7 phones in the past trying to do this... I was unsuccessful so it's money out of my pocket and have nothing to offer but I recently got laid off and have an HTC One (M7) from T-Mobile with a bad esn I'm trying to sell but need to port it to AT&T first because I can't get any useful amount without this. Firewater doesn't work and I can't afford $25. This sucks for me and since I'm desperately trying to get this done (gotta pay rent) I'm trying to work on my own exploit but am scared I'm going to brick this device too. I understand trying to be rewarded for This amazing creation but it sucks for those of us that can't pay that $25...

OfficialLocdoGg said:
I agree that $25 is steep. I'd consider $5 to $10 but even then I'm like "I don't know" because I have tried a lot of this type of crap and bricked devices. I bricked 3 M7 phones in the past trying to do this... I was unsuccessful so it's money out of my pocket and have nothing to offer but I recently got laid off and have an HTC One (M7) from T-Mobile with a bad esn I'm trying to sell but need to port it to AT&T first because I can't get any useful amount without this. Firewater doesn't work and I can't afford $25. This sucks for me and since I'm desperately trying to get this done (gotta pay rent) I'm trying to work on my own exploit but am scared I'm going to brick this device too. I understand trying to be rewarded for This amazing creation but it sucks for those of us that can't pay that $25...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then don't s-off and/or wait until you have the $$$ to pay for it. Nobody is forcing you to, there is no requirement, so we don't OWE the developer anything unless we decide to use their product which they have spent time working on. Judging by your previous history I would just leave as is and not tinker anymore, as this type of modification for any device comes with the risk of bricking your device if you're not careful/dont know what you're doing.
I'm no genius but food, rent, etc all come before modifying my phone for pleasure/convenience.
---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------
Medic3720 said:
So I have a silly question, First I have only ever rooted 1 phone prior to this, S3, Now I have my htc one m8, Used weaksauce, worked for me to enable power saving mode, now my phone is no longer rooted, So the question is will sunshine, root, my phone and turn the S-OFF? Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can download the apk from the site in the first post and run the app. As the dev says if you get to the screen asking or payment details then it will work fo you.

Well thanks captain obvious but as my post says... It isn't for enjoyment or pleasure. I need to sell the phone with a bad esn so I'm trying to flash it to AT&T so I get a reasonable amount. I need s-Off for that. I agree that I probably shouldn't tinker with my device anymore but the thought of not keeping a place for my daughters to live kills me. I'm not asking the developers to change anything. I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts on it. I did post a comment on another thread in frustration yesterday that was uncalled for but I'm just trying to get by until I can get a new job.

FRP [Factory Reset Protect] Removal for Samsung Galaxy S7 & Edge (SM-930V & SM-935V)

FRP [Factory Reset Protect] Removal for Samsung Galaxy S7 & Edge (SM-930V & SM-935V)
I have decided to release full FRP Bypass PE1 + Software Root
I hold no responsibility on how this software is used.
This software is malware free. So just follow the instructions and if I helped hit the Thank you!
I only support and assist with this version of my software not other versions that have been decompiled and released elsewhere within this thread.
There are no revisions of version changes this is the final version and works 100% if you can follow simple instructions.
Download

Reserved

xboxexpert said:
The total has now risen to the administration having over 10K of phones locked in her drawer with no way to bypass security lock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would love to see a picture of 10,000 phones in a drawer.
I don't have a solid answer for you on the legality (and in fact I'm sure few here are experts in that regard) although you can probably safely assume the answer is no.

psouza4 said:
I would love to see a picture of 10,000 phones in a drawer.
I don't have a solid answer for you on the legality (and in fact I'm sure few here are experts in that regard) although you can probably safely assume the answer is no.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I figured the SGS7's are at least 400 or 500 bucks each or something I haven't paid for a phone nor service is 7 years being employees here. Don't care to research how expensive they are however I know she has over 20 of them at the moment.
#guestimate

xboxexpert said:
I figured the SGS7's are at least 400 or 500 bucks each or something I haven't paid for a phone nor service is 7 years being employees here. Don't care to research how expensive they are however I know she has over 20 of them at the moment.
#guestimate
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aw, you meant $10K value not 10K quantity. What a difference a character makes. I would have loved to see the ridiculous stockpile that 10,000 phones in a single drawer would look like

So are you saying you found a method or are going to try to find a method?
Any cobtribution is a good one but I am not familiar with the legality either but dont see it matter unless you are posting saying thieves can use it on a stolen device.
In all honesty, ppl legitamitely forget their passwords and lock themselves out I am sure all the time and at times if you purchase the phone from a third party theres really no way to remove or bypass it without proof of purchase or replacing the device which some might not have because of how it was purchased.

elliwigy said:
So are you saying you found a method or are going to try to find a method?
Any cobtribution is a good one but I am not familiar with the legality either but dont see it matter unless you are posting saying thieves can use it on a stolen device.
In all honesty, ppl legitamitely forget their passwords and lock themselves out I am sure all the time and at times if you purchase the phone from a third party theres really no way to remove or bypass it without proof of purchase or replacing the device which some might not have because of how it was purchased.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have successfully bypassed the FRP Reset Protection no matter how much security is on the phone, passcode, pattern, fingerprint. All are bypassed for a full clean factory reset.
So short answer, yes. Also there is a high likelihood that this method works on ALL variants.

I'm going to say trolly troll troll.
'Tis all.
Sent from my SM-G930V using XDA-Developers mobile app

If what your saying is true do the right thing and contact the manufacturer and carriers with it I'm sure that they would like to know. The fact that you haven't already isn't right.

jayfried said:
If what your saying is true do the right thing and contact the manufacturer and carriers with it I'm sure that they would like to know. The fact that you haven't already isn't right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am in full agreement with this statement. However I have no idea where to start. Again this was basically proof of concept until it because a reality. Tested it at least 20 times and every time I've been able to bypass FRP 100%. Even gave it to my director and had him lock it down with fingerprint and google account and 10 minutes later he was speechless.

xboxexpert said:
I am in full agreement with this statement. However I have no idea where to start. Again this was basically proof of concept until it because a reality. Tested it at least 20 times and every time I've been able to bypass FRP 100%. Even gave it to my director and had him lock it down with fingerprint and google account and 10 minutes later he was speechless.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pm me the method. I want to try on my phone

I personally would contact MikeChannon (forum admin) at http://forum.xda-developers.com/member.php?u=335322 and go from there. I'm all for public disclosure but if you are worried about legal or forum rules I think he'd be more informed.

From the Moderator
The bypass method would not violate any law per se. The only issue that would be in question is if you own the phone or lease it.
Under that specific lease agreement it probably has wording about applying custom software to the phone.
~~~ oka1

ESN lockout is what makes turning over a lost or stolen phone difficult. And yet there is a huge grey-market trade on ebay and other places. I image they are all going overseas to get the appropriate chips switched out for resale. And if they have an operation set up for that, physically removing the flash chip and reprograming it would be a breeze. IMHO the lockout is more of a money generator for samsung so they can charge you to unlock it if you lock yourself out.
Describing the process is no more illegal than rooting. And if you figured it out, someone else will too. Only they might not share in hopes of selling the service or profiting somehow.

BlueLightNight said:
ESN lockout is what makes turning over a lost or stolen phone difficult. And yet there is a huge grey-market trade on ebay and other places. I image they are all going overseas to get the appropriate chips switched out for resale. And if they have an operation set up for that, physically removing the flash chip and reprograming it would be a breeze. IMHO the lockout is more of a money generator for samsung so they can charge you to unlock it if you lock yourself out.
Describing the process is no more illegal than rooting. And if you figured it out, someone else will too. Only they might not share in hopes of selling the service or profiting somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Meaning if I share then I'm opening up a whole new market that will explode as bad as Pokemon Go.....

or meaning someone else will release it anyways in time so whether you release it or not doesnt matter outside of you being "first" lol

xboxexpert said:
Meaning if I share then I'm opening up a whole new market that will explode as bad as Pokemon Go.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it would destroy or prevent a market. Markets only exist for those who know how and can do it. At the moment that is Samsung. You don't share it and Samsung makes a bit more money. Then someone else figures it out and they also don't share.... you start seeing adverts on eBay priced a bit below Samsung for the "get back into your phone!" service (or maybe it's just you trying to make a buck ;P ) If you do release it or someone else figures it out and releases it. Well,... we will still see the adverts on ebay for the techna-challenged but it will be a hell of a lot cheaper because it is a known process thus many people offering thus competition.

rootjunky has had an FRP bypass out for months.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChCvMLdyRuw

PiousInquisitor said:
rootjunky has had an FRP bypass out for months.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChCvMLdyRuw
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go try it on your Verizon phone with latest security update patch.

xboxexpert said:
Go try it on your Verizon phone with latest security update patch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You try it. My phone is set up and running the way I want it. I'm not going wipe it for a silly reason like proving myself wrong or right. That's your job.
If it works or not isn't the whole point of posting the video. Clearly it's not illegal to expose how to get around FRP. If it were, RootJunky would have been charged and his videos pulled.
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk