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Hi Chainfire,
Thank you for the clarification in the last thread on the different Qualcomm processor variants.
Admittedly I am still a little dubious about your specs because I'm sure I saw a datasheet for the 7200a that stated it was 90nm - however I know that you have been in this game for while (ROMs et al) so I will accept them and verify them when I get a moment)
I also agree that the TP2 did feel snappier than the TP1.
However your argument concerning the TP being a repackaged Tytn2 is a very weak one for the reasons you specified and many others.
The TP is clearly a different class of device in comparison to the Tytn 2 and definitely doesn't feel repackaged.
Also the phones have not simply been repackaged over the last few years, I've had most of them with considerable improvements in each until we reached the Qualcomm era pre snapdragon...
Also I'm not a fan for the 7200 series qualcomm processors for all types of video related reasons.
The snapdragon (also qualcomm) demonstrates innovation and shows promise as well as potential.
On another tangent I'm really loving the snapdragon capabilities they've demonstrated runing android in the netbook market at the moment too (720p hardware encoding and decoding according another engadget and gizmodo.
As usual - Time will tell - it never lies!
Question - Doesn't anyone else feel a little betrayed at the rate of hardware/software innovation in WM products at the moment?
I surely can't be the only one.
I've used these devices for ages and after seeing things like the Palm Pre and IPhone I feel a little frustrated.
qazzi76 said:
Hi Chainfire,
Thank you for the clarification in the last thread on the different Qualcomm processor variants.
Admittedly I am still a little dubious about your specs because I'm sure I saw a datasheet for the 7200a that stated it was 90nm - however I know that you have been in this game for while (ROMs et al) so I will accept them and verify them when I get a moment)
I also agree that the TP2 did feel snappier than the TP1.
However your argument concerning the TP being a repackaged Tytn2 is a very weak one for the reasons you specified and many others.
The TP is clearly a different class of device in comparison to the Tytn 2 and definitely doesn't feel repackaged.
Also the phones have not simply been repackaged over the last few years, I've had most of them with considerable improvements in each until we reached the Qualcomm era pre snapdragon...
Also I'm not a fan for the 7200 series qualcomm processors for all types of video related reasons.
The snapdragon (also qualcomm) demonstrates innovation and shows promise as well as potential.
On another tangent I'm really loving the snapdragon capabilities they've demonstrated runing android in the netbook market at the moment too (720p hardware encoding and decoding according another engadget and gizmodo.
As usual - Time will tell - it never lies!
Question - Doesn't anyone else feel a little betrayed at the rate of hardware/software innovation in WM products at the moment?
I surely can't be the only one.
I've used these devices for ages and after seeing things like the Palm Pre and IPhone I feel a little frustrated.
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Click to collapse
Why has this been brough back to life? DaveShaw closed the last thread, can't you respect that and leave it for a bit?
No clearly I can't.
While the TP2 isn't that bad a device - if all else fails I will probably end up with one - There is an underlying issue here that needs to be discussed and addressed that isn't only applicable to the Touch Pro 2.
And further more I'm not offending anyone I'm encouraging discussion that needs to be encouraged.
I've been here since 2004 and been using these devices before 2004 and am seriously wondering what's happening with WM in the industry lately.
- WM7 promised the world but has yet to see the light of day.
- We still don't have properly implemented VGA recording in our devices
- Rich application experience is only available through 3rd party programs and pluggins when it should be available at the OS level.
- Why on earth do some programmers know how to manipulate the hardware at OS level better than Microsoft, the people that make the OS (Example Point UI)
Seriously what is going on here?
Have you seen the Palm Pre?
Have you seen the Iphone?
Have you seen Android Cupcake?
What do we have?
Microsoft has given us a half a hearted attempt at an OS refresh (6.5) and embarassingly all our rich app experiences are provided by third parties.
Why couldn't HTC release Rhodium level hardware with Android?
As for processor specs:
From the MSM7200A datasheet that I "absolutely don't have":
7200: 90 nm CMOS (15 x 15 x 1.4 mm)
7200A: 65 nm CMOS (15 x 15 x 1.4 mm)
Some more interesting changes in non-A vs A are that the A has 24bpp display support for EBI2, and the memory is clocked at 166mhz instead of 128mhz (aside from the obvious 528mhz (533 officially) addition) and also uses a different GPS core. I assume all the latter is also in the 7201A but I cannot verify that, so...
As to the repackaging thing, perhaps you misunderstood me. I do not feel like the TP is a repackaged TyTN II, nor do I really feel the TP2 is a repackaged TP. But, if you say the latter you should also say the former - the thread starter only did the latter. Even if for one you may feel instinctively that it isn't repackaged and for the other you do, it's either both or neither, from my viewpoint.
I agree there have been many improvements, but most of them were not in the 'bare' hardware. And that was the discussion point of the thread starter, who stated in one of his posts that we were not talking about software. Obviously, casing, screens, etc have improvements as well as the software.
Again, I love the TP2. The first time I played with one was love at first sight.
As for video, the 7200 series is more than capable - just not supported very well. With fully optimized drivers and software, video playback should be much better than it is right now. Its the old trick of unleashing a little bit more potential with every device release to get people to upgrade. Sound business model, but obviously us techs frown at it.
As for snapdragon, I agree it has got awesome capabilities, but there are some caveats (note that I already played with snapdragon devices and it felt really fast to me... much faster than TP2).
Caveat #1: How will it stack up versus the Tegra? I've also seen Tegra (test) devices in action up close (no touching, though, and it was bigger than my pocket) and it did seem extremely awesome.
Caveat #2: It's still Qualcomm. While HTC is partially to blame for the whole mess the past few years, so is Qualcomm. Both of these companies continuously let us down performance-wise. Will the old dogs learn new tricks? Will major corporations ever actually care about their customers? Will they ever deliver what they promise? We are talking about HTC and Qualcomm here, and due to past experience I wouldn't put the chances of that very high.
Of course, Microsoft also has a big role to play in optimizing WM. It's a dog. But it's improving... I do have high hopes for WM7.
Do I feel betrayed? I don't think that's the correct word, but yes, I am disappointed (even if I do love the TP2 ). I think over time things will get better though. WM being the slow dog that it is, with the latest hardware and some effort it should still be technically possible to top iPhone performance by a large margin.
I can easily understand your frustration though. I am myself heavily invested in WM (my livelyhood actually depends on it) so I am also frustrated. It can be much better!
Hi Chainfire,
Oh - I see... Got you.
So the A supports higher bit resolution displays and has faster memory!
Ok I stand corrected about the MSM7200 series processors.
Somehow I'm not surprised the hardware is capable of good Video - I just haven't experienced it.. yet.. - But I also put that down to poor colaboration (possibly deliberately) on MS, HTC and Qualcomms part)
I also have been wondering about the Tegra but I see it taking ages to come to market based on NVidia's PDA GPU efforts before which eventually materialised in Dells axim x51v (PDA) initially and then imates 6150(Phone) ages after anouncement.
Obviously this could change.
I agree the Tegra is a worthy force to be reckoned with if implemented correctly - I unfortunately have only seen working examples of the Tegra on Youtube but what I have seen has been very very impressive GUI wise.
The Snapdragon looks kinda crazy too with its 1.3ghz potential when its already flying at 1ghz on the TG01 and the whole netbook angle/implementation of snapdragon.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what WM7 has to offer although I imagine it's must be a little difficult for you at the mo with the whole Android and apple app store gaining ground and making their mark in industry.
Anyhow I wish you good luck with your WM based business projects/ventures.
Maybe tp2 use msm7201A http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=522460
That would be interesting, it is listed as 7200A everywhere on the net. But as some people already have one, perhaps they should check the about screen?
Mine still not in...
EDIT: Checked FCC pics, that one indeed seems to have 7201A. Wonder if the EU version will also have this or have 7200A. We'll know soon enough I guess!
Chainfire said:
That would be interesting, it is listed as 7200A everywhere on the net. But as some people already have one, perhaps they should check the about screen?
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UK version 7200A-528MHz, according the the About screen.
Hmm, that makes it likely the US versions will be MSM7201A and the rest of the world will get MSM7200A... Interesting!
out of interest im in uk and mine has the 7200A...
So,
I'm waiting for the Dell Venue Pro to be released, but it keeps getting delayed...
I'm wondering if some manufactureres would be releasing new phones close to the release of the dvp, thuss, maybe there would be some better phones by then...?
Anyone read something interesting?
quinstar said:
So,
I'm waiting for the Dell Venue Pro to be released, but it keeps getting delayed...
I'm wondering if some manufactureres would be releasing new phones close to the release of the dvp, thuss, maybe there would be some better phones by then...?
Anyone read something interesting?
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Click to collapse
That's truly an interesting question for one reason: MS will be doing updating and all phones are suppose to be similar hardware wise...to avoid fragmentation. I believe, with the exception of screen types and camera res, that every WP7 phone currently released, and likely the CDMA versions included, use the same processing hardware.
The reason this is interesting is because, how will MS handle hardware evolution. These WP7 phones certainly can't remain the same forever. Eventually there will be 1.5GHz CPUs and higher res screens. How will MS handle incorporating phones equipped with higher speed CPUs and higher res screens into WP7 filled with the current tech. The whole point of WP7 is keep things level across the board. A current 1GHz SnapDragon certainly would not be level with a 1.5 or 2GHz FlamingLizard dual core CPU.
MartyLK said:
That's truly an interesting question for one reason: MS will be doing updating and all phones are suppose to be similar hardware wise...to avoid fragmentation. I believe, with the exception of screen types and camera res, that every WP7 phone currently released, and likely the CDMA versions included, use the same processing hardware.
The reason this is interesting is because, how will MS handle hardware evolution. These WP7 phones certainly can't remain the same forever. Eventually there will be 1.5GHz CPUs and higher res screens. How will MS handle incorporating phones equipped with higher speed CPUs and higher res screens into WP7 filled with the current tech. The whole point of WP7 is keep things level across the board. A current 1GHz SnapDragon certainly would not be level with a 1.5 or 2GHz FlamingDragon dual core CPU.
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Windows Phone 8 in a year?
It'll be like games consoles, a new one every 5 years or so. After all, with the OS being as fast as it is on 1GHz processors, nobody cares about 1.5GHz ones. Except geeks.
As a geek, I can say that I would insta-buy a FlamingLizard device. That name is just pure awesome.
Seriously though, certain hardware was specified because MS is providing the correct drivers to use that hardware correctly (glowers @ HTC). When new stuff hits, MS will pick a new item they like, make drivers for it, and tell OEM's what to use, just like they've done with the current line. MS has way too much invested in WP7 to let it get relegated to second-rate hardware. Even if Metro doesn't ask for a huge level of processing power, MS is heavily pushing live integration, and I believe that they will be all over stuffing powerful processors into phones in order to sell them as gaming platforms.
MS could go apples way.
Every year in november for example, ms could allow to use higher hardware.
Like: iphone 2g, 3g, 3gs, 4
And ms give us a wp7 version for each generation of wp7 phones
i think the best way for MS to give the hardware manufacturers more capabilities would be to set up benchmarking for all the different components. have the current components as the benchmark for example, and if they want to change say the CPU/GPU, it has to outperform the current benchmark. this way, it becomes a lot more like Android in the manufacturers can make the devices the way they'd like using the parts they'd like.
the only issue is, MS would need to be involved in creating every driver for every different component. i think at present it's quite restricted down to particular components so that you get a good boot up time and running experience, because there isn't redundant/generic drivers on the phone.
As far as I know the requirements aren't as specific as what people are saying, but more "Minimum Requirements"
From what I can remember it's something along the lines of
AT LEAST a 1ghz Processor
AT LEAST a 3.5" Screen
AT LEAST 8Gb Storage
etc etc.
So new devices can come out with faster processors, they wont though... Manufacturers will milk the cheapest hardware for as long as they can. I would expect a rehash of requirements each year.
The whole point of it all isn't really to keep things level, it's to make sure that underpowered devices aren't released that run the OS like crap (Eg Wildfire, Tattoo) and also so that devices aren't released running a version of the OS that's over a year old (Xperia X10)
yeah thats what I was wondering. Those were the minimum requirements not specific reqs as people assume. The hardware manufacturers just stuck to those to save costs. I'm sure if MS did not have these then they would have used even lower end crap, thus destroying any chance WP7 has of attaining success.
FL5 said:
As a geek, I can say that I would insta-buy a FlamingLizard device. That name is just pure awesome.
Seriously though, certain hardware was specified because MS is providing the correct drivers to use that hardware correctly (glowers @ HTC). When new stuff hits, MS will pick a new item they like, make drivers for it, and tell OEM's what to use, just like they've done with the current line. MS has way too much invested in WP7 to let it get relegated to second-rate hardware. Even if Metro doesn't ask for a huge level of processing power, MS is heavily pushing live integration, and I believe that they will be all over stuffing powerful processors into phones in order to sell them as gaming platforms.
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+1 for the flaminglizard dual core cpu. or even blazedmonkey dual core cpu. or bullsballz dual core cpu. so long as it's dual core, i'll buy it. hell, i might even buy it if it ran windows, then dump a android rom on it and have a flaming-dog-ballz rooted/ unlocked dual core cpu smash phone.
HA
ohgood said:
+1 for the flaminglizard dual core cpu. or even blazedmonkey dual core cpu. or bullsballz dual core cpu. so long as it's dual core, i'll buy it. hell, i might even buy it if it ran windows, then dump a android rom on it and have a flaming-dog-ballz rooted/ unlocked dual core cpu smash phone.
HA
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LMAO...funny stuff!
cbebop7 said:
yeah thats what I was wondering. Those were the minimum requirements not specific reqs as people assume. The hardware manufacturers just stuck to those to save costs. I'm sure if MS did not have these then they would have used even lower end crap, thus destroying any chance WP7 has of attaining success.
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I think what certainly would have happened, at least with HTC is they would have 1 premier device, probably the HD7 in it's current iteration. The rest of the devices would then go from Bad to Absolute ****. The Trophy or Mozart would probably have a smaller screen and a severely slow processor by today's standards.
What will happen eventually is someone will realise that the majority of the handsets are the same and release something with better specs than the current bunch in an attempt to stand out from the crowd. My guess is it will be LG
Here's my take on it.
First half of 2011:
* Chassis 2 handsets start appearing, being technically the same as launch devices.
Come November 2011:
* WP8 devices come consisting of second or third gen snapdragons and/or introduce another SoC like Hummingbird or OMAP.
* Chassis 3 handsets also start appearing (tablets or gaming style deisgn like PSPhone maybe?)
My wishes:
* Resolution bump for tablets and smartphones
* Hero phone introduced by Microsoft (much like the Nexus series), Zune/xbox phone anyone?
edit: looks like WP8 will actually be coming out end of 2012 http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/windows-phone-7-mango-rumors
I take no credit for this, ita a great article i came across that made the most sense in a while related to hardware :
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011...erately-need-more-powerful-devices-this-year/
As you have probably already noticed I was at Mobile World Congress this week so I had the opportunity to play around with some of the latest and most powerful handsets ever created. This year was obviously dominated by Google’s Android platform which took center stage at the convention with essentially every OEMs demonstrating or unveiling products running the immensely successful OS. What does it have to do with Windows Phone 7 hardware ? Well if there’s one thing that really garbed my attention it is the fact that not a single Android device I played with was as snappy and smooth as the Samsung Omnia 7 device I had in my pocket (or any iPhone model). Yes some of the devices on display were running non finalized software and probably hardware too but this has already been the case with retail devices like the Galaxy S and Desire HD which feature more powerful hardware than all the currently released WP7 devices.
I will repeat what I have been saying for a while: Android is the new Windows Mobile. OEMs want to differentiate their the products and one of the best way to do this is to use the latest and greatest chipsets, screen technology or other fancy hardware components. But as an end user, why should I care about the newest Exynos 4210, TI OMAP 4430, Tegra 2 if it can’t provide me with the same user experience as the now nearly 3 years old QSD8250 found in my Windows Phone 7 device? Similar to the old Windows Mobile days; OEMs are using Android’s “openness” as a test bed for their new CPUs and chipsets and are pumping out devices with crazy hardware specifications to show themselves in the press and sell device purely based on check list features: Dual-Core CPU ? Check. XX Mpix camera ? Check. 3D Cameras? Check. Huge Screen? Check etc. The issue here is that device manufacturers are more interested in time to market so optimizing the software to work with the hardware is just an afterthought. It’s not Google’s job to code the driver for the Samsung Exynos or for TI’s OMAP4. Google doesn’t even want to get the browser to use GPU acceleration for smoother scrolling and panning so the device manufacturers shouldn’t even count on the big G to give them any kind meaningful help in this department (Samsung has apparently implemented GPU acceleration to the browser in some unreleased Galaxy S firmware builds).
HTC has apparently learned the lesson a long time ago and has instead decided to milk the same SoC for while and instead just improve it’s Sense software layer every time it releases a new batch of devices. The end user is in both cases being presented with less than optimal solutions / offerings: On one hand you have new hardware that goes totally unused (Samsung, LG) and on the other you are buying exactly the same hardware but with an updated software layer (HTC).
Now let’s go back to Windows Phone 7 for minute. Take a Google Nexus One/ HTC Desire and compare it to the similarly speced WP7 devices. Which one is the snappiest and offers the smoothest UX? Same for the HTC HD2 running WM6.5 compared to the same device running Windows Phone 7. Microsoft has several big advantage with WP7 compared to Android. First, the have enforced strict HW guidelines and are currently only supporting Qualcomm’s Snapdragon SoCs and their Adreno GPUs. Secondly the Adreno GPUs are closely related to the Xenos GPU found in the Xbox360 so the company was already quite a bit familiar with architecture. Thirdly they control the APIs (Direct3D Mobile through DXGI and probably Direct2D for IE9 Mobile) unlike Android which relies on OpenGL ES and the drivers developed by the chipset manufacturers. The Windows Phone 7 ecosystem is like a console ecosystem with one set of drivers and APIs all controlled and certified by Microsoft while Android is more like a PC ecosystem filled with tons of different hardware configurations, driver versions controlled by nobody (Qualcomm even told me that OEMs don’t really bother including the latest drivers in the devices just because they are more concerned by the shipping date of the handset than with the end user experience. For example, as of right now the SE Xperia Play is the Android handset that has the latest Adreno 205 drivers).
Who would have thought that Microsoft would be able to easily port IE9 (which requires a DX10 GPU on the desktop) to Windows Phone 7 which only runs on a relatively old Adreno 200 GPU (DX9 capable) ins such a short time? Now take a look at the current state of the Webkit on Android: Yes it’s blazing fast at loading web pages on those super powerful handsets but after that the UX is simply anticlimactic because of the lack of HW acceleration. This is supposed to be fixed in Honeycomb on the tablets right? But where’s the smartphone version? From what I have seen at MWC the touch responsiveness of the Android 3.0 tablets varies greatly from one device maker to another. So once again Google’s lack of control of the hardware and drivers is going to hurt the end user.
This is not to say that Windows Phone 7 should be stuck with the current QSD8250. New high-end WP7 devices are going to be announced later this year because technology evolves at a rapid pace and Microsoft will obviously want to support higher resolution screens and video formats (and yes they are working on new Chassis but the Nokia partnership which was decided only last Thursday changed some of the plans), more graphically intensive 3D games and applications but the point here is that they are in no rush to do this because they can squeeze a lot more out of the first generation Snapdragon SoC than what is possible with Android. Everything I just said so far also applies to Apple’s iPhone which is quite similar to Windows Phone 7 and I personally think that there’s no need for Apple to switch to a dual-core SoC for the upcoming iPhone 5 given that the A4 is still powerful enough for 99% of the tasks (but if they do then you can be sure that they will have the software to take advantage of it). Android is obviously a really great OS that I enjoy using it on a daily basis thanks to all the features it supports but Google should really stop the madness and take over control of what should or shouldn’t be done on the platform. OEMs are loving it right now because they are free to do whatever they see fit but I really think that it will hurt the platform in the long run when people start to realise that they paying for hardware that most of the time isn’t used all or just paying for a software update (HTC..).
What Windows Phone 7 is in desperate need of is software updates filled with differentiating features and thrid-party access to more APIs so they developers can create more exciting and advanced applications.
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Discuss...
Pretty much the facts.... I mean that is just an astounding article... spot on.
As an Android user who is otherwise impartial to OS wars, I wholeheartedly agree. For months now, I've been telling people that Android reminds me of the old Windows Mobile. Every WM7 device I have ever played with has exhibited exemplary smoothness and snappyness compared to any Android handset you care to name. It's a shame because Android is really good otherwise.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
IMO, although it would be nice to have, WP7 doesnt have to go overboard like Android is doing when it comes to specs as to dual core cpu's, 3d displays and such. I believe that they should improve hardware based on features such as front facing camera to add video chat functinality, perhaps a video output via 3.5mm jack (since requiring hdmi might be pushing it a little across all oem's) etc.
Im positive that if they bump up the cpu to support at least second gen snapdragon with its 45nm architecture, improved 205 Adreno GPU and much faster clock per clock compared to first gen, i have no doubt that besides the inmensly graphical stressing situations, WP7 would run circles round any dual core Android device since it being used to its full potential and proper optimization and drivers makes it not have a elephant on its back to carry
I think it is a given that we will eventually see more powerful Qualcomm SoCs show up in WP7 devices, and possibly other manufacturers' SoCs. This generation might become the "budget" chassis in 2012...Who knows?
What I do like, and want it to remain the same, is the fact that Microsoft needs to certify whatever hardware specs is used, so when updates are pushed out, Microsoft wouldn't need to run to each manufacturer and ask for drivers...
I'm sold where can I buy one? I kid, I kid. I have a Focus.
One thing is for sure, the overall opinion of the phone UI is excellent for all the listed reasons. Thanks for the post.
I compare this current experience to my experience with Windows 7 rc. Much like the day I installed Windows 7 to my lowly Dual Core (e2150, 2gb, 7200 HDD), it was good but not great in terms of speed, quick but not fast. Then, the cycle moved on and new hardware at low prices came into my life...
Now at Quad Core, 8 gb, Dual GPU, SSD, it is like driving a Buggati Veyron, downhill, on a 5 lane speedway, with no traffic. Life is instantaneous, the only limit...my ability to click as fast as it acts. ha! It happens as if I had on a thinking helmet and it sucked the idea out of my head!
I can only imagine wp7 on the set of phones that will come out...8 months...1 to 2 years from today...oh yeaaaaaa
close your eyes, think about it. Did you think about it? Think again, that's right. Amazing.
Wasn't that nice? Ahhhh yeaaaaaa
With dual core and a 2x faster GPU...oh my...it will get smoother and faster...hard to imagine and exciting at the same time. :splooge:
All in due time, I am happy with my phone today and happily have put my development time into other projects and not Wm6.5. Like this one from Johnny http://hackaday.com/2011/02/09/low-cost-video-chat-robot/
The current WP7 devices are fine. Just make sure you get one with 16G Storage and 512+ RAM or hope you're gonna be lucky enough to find a big SD Card that works well the first time. Data loss due to a bad/incompatible SD Card months down the line is... Unfun!
I want my next phone to have the IBM Watson OS
I don't really expect to see WP7 handsets with faster processors. It isn't needed. Every app or game being made will be aiming for a certain minimum standard.
I do see improvements coming in extra features (like a front facing camera). And I do expect to see handsets with more and more memory.
If the end of 2011 brought WP7 devices with the current processor, but also offered 768 MB RAM, 32 GB storage and a front facing camera, that would be one hell of a competitive device.
Then in the holiday of 2012 we could see WP8 push the hardware limits by launching with some really high minimum specs. But at the same time, still support WP7 for "budget" handsets.
They need sexier devices. I must admit the three buttons on the front do look classy.
Reflexx1 said:
I don't really expect to see WP7 handsets with faster processors. It isn't needed. Every app or game being made will be aiming for a certain minimum standard.
I do see improvements coming in extra features (like a front facing camera). And I do expect to see handsets with more and more memory.
If the end of 2011 brought WP7 devices with the current processor, but also offered 768 MB RAM, 32 GB storage and a front facing camera, that would be one hell of a competitive device.
Then in the holiday of 2012 we could see WP8 push the hardware limits by launching with some really high minimum specs. But at the same time, still support WP7 for "budget" handsets.
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The minimum specs must be maintained and they must be maintained at a level that ensures user experience will not be compromised for people who bought launch devices. In the holiday season of 2012 people will still be stuck on contract with current devices, probably for months to come.
All of a sudden apps will be updated in a way that their phones will choke running these apps.
Just upping the minimum specs because you think it sounds cute is a dumb idea. I doubt Microsoft will do it, and if they do, people will sort of laugh at them and they will lose a ton of customers. By then RIM will have QNX Blackberries and WebOS may be well-developed. There will be even more choices than we have today...
They really have to take an "Apple" approach to hardware support, IMO. It's the only thing that makes sense sort of overspeccing your devices and enticing a bunch of geeks to upgrade their phones every year for major software updates/bug fixes every 9 months to a year.
Yeah but is it partially due to room? I mean, Sense ROMs running slower than the cleaned up and simpler AOSP ROMs? I get the lack of acceleration ... a d understand the end result and why people might complain ... but my phone is snappy even though at times I notice slow down .. but that is hardly reason to ignore stability updates, even others. I mean , while my phone might be running smooth here ... it may slow down there. I see the choppy scroll .. but I've seen friends WP7 - uh, phones? - slow down at times too.
I get sick of this WP7 is constantly butter because its not. More often than not? Sure. But I rarely get agitated at the speed of mu device and most don't either ... sure I can see it, but I've also seen my.phone jump as much as my friends WP7 devices. It all depends. Overall, sure ... but it still doesnt touch iOS. To think you are major steps ahead is hype. More overhead here .... lack of acceleration here ... it's not shocking when you think about it. Android uses more resources and overhead ... you have such q standardized system. Its almost not surprising. And it's NOT suggestive of you being "good" at the moment.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
That's a great article. I agree 100%. I had a Samsung Galaxy S and with it's freshest time it had the most powerful chips int the markets, but even today it is not lag free, because of crappy Samsung optimizations to the software. That's why I really don't believe the new Galaxy S II will be any better with it's dual core. You could see it from the videos, that it's laggy at the moment and I don't believe Samsung will get it lag free ever.
fast hardware = bad ?
this smacks of hardware envy something terrible.
surrrrre, android + quad cores will suck... but wp8 will be perfect. whatever, if ever.
N8ter said:
The current WP7 devices are fine. Just make sure you get one with 16G Storage and 512+ RAM or hope you're gonna be lucky enough to find a big SD Card that works well the first time. Data loss due to a bad/incompatible SD Card months down the line is... Unfun!
I want my next phone to have the IBM Watson OS
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Why is 512+ RAM important, I was thing about getting the HTC 7 Pro, which only has 448 RAM and also is 16gb necessary if I don't use my phone as a media player as HTC 7 Pro only has 8gb as well?
Beesneazy, you're either completely full of crap or just delusional. I mean wow. Android fanboyism at its ugliest. Yeesh.
Ohgood, did you read the article? If you did, perhaps it's time to go back to Hooked on Phonics to work on word comprehension...
Anyhow, on topic, I completely agree with the article posted by OP. Kiddies like these Android fanboys love to deny the truth but it is what it is. Did everyone really think Microsoft would just sit back and be pummeled in the mobile phone market forever? With the right moves in the future WP7 will be huge. Maybe knock Android back down to third or fourth place and setup a head to head with iOS...
Sent from my HD7 using Board Express
ohgood said:
this smacks of hardware envy something terrible.
surrrrre, android + quad cores will suck... but wp8 will be perfect. whatever, if ever.
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Yes, and when you get your quad core phones that are still lagging, and still dont recieve the latest updates, and are still running a version of android that is essentially a pallet swap of 2.1 and still looks like a low end iphone we'll be happy with our maybe dual or maybe quad-core phones that run smoother, have better games (because aside from iphone ports and maybe 1-2 other games androids selection is just terrible), have a decent media player, have oustanding integration with business and personal matters, and we'll actually have a NEW OS not just an overhyped pallet swap of the previous version.
Fact WP7 will never catch Android or IOS.
Sure WP7 is nice. Serious competitor, nope.
Think realistic and remove your love affair. Maybe WP7 can be 5th place or if things go well 4th place.
Now flame on.
N8ter said:
The minimum specs must be maintained and they must be maintained at a level that ensures user experience will not be compromised for people who bought launch devices. In the holiday season of 2012 people will still be stuck on contract with current devices, probably for months to come.
All of a sudden apps will be updated in a way that their phones will choke running these apps.
Just upping the minimum specs because you think it sounds cute is a dumb idea. I doubt Microsoft will do it, and if they do, people will sort of laugh at them and they will lose a ton of customers. By then RIM will have QNX Blackberries and WebOS may be well-developed. There will be even more choices than we have today...
They really have to take an "Apple" approach to hardware support, IMO. It's the only thing that makes sense sort of overspeccing your devices and enticing a bunch of geeks to upgrade their phones every year for major software updates/bug fixes every 9 months to a year.
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I'm not sure what you're attempting to address when you quoted me. I never mentioned changing the minimum specs of WP7.
And I think it's pretty much guaranteed that WP8 will have a completely different set of minimum specs. Do you expect it to never change?
vetvito said:
They need sexier devices. I must admit the three buttons on the front do look classy.
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Exactly! I agree they don't need more powerful devices but they do need more appealing hardware (for a start a 32GB device would do no harm).
vetvito said:
Fact WP7 will never catch Android or IOS.
Sure WP7 is nice. Serious competitor, nope.
Think realistic and remove your love affair. Maybe WP7 can be 5th place or if things go well 4th place.
Now flame on.
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Click to collapse
Sad but true. WP7 is quite late and if you think about it the real launch will be with Nokia, I doubt they'll sell anything before that as nothing has changed since October.
vetvito said:
Fact WP7 will never catch Android or IOS.
Sure WP7 is nice. Serious competitor, nope.
Think realistic and remove your love affair. Maybe WP7 can be 5th place or if things go well 4th place.
Now flame on.
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Click to collapse
this is true only because the majority of cellphone owners are complete morons.
The following article is not even remotely related to E4GT (or Samsung for that matter) but I found it very interesting... There's a strong possibility of Intel dominating all mobile processors starting 2014 - 2015 ...
http://liliputing.com/2012/04/intel-pushes-atom-chip-for-android-devices.html
EDIT: I just noticed that the website (or maybe the user) removed the second post that I copied below.
You can skip the actual article, but read the comments (from user CyberGusa) :
While as for what advantages Intel can start to offer, it's what Chippy from UMPCPortal would call High Dynamic Range Computing (HDRC). Unlike ARM, Intel is fully capable of scaling from the mobile range to the full desktop range.
This will be especially true if Windows 8 is successful, as x86 can offer legacy support where ARM can't, and can provide the higher range performance that ARM is still many years away from being able to provide as their high end next gen offerings will only rival the present gen Intel ATOMs.
MS in particular is patenting a way to easily switch between CPU's when docking. So could make a Windows system literally scale from mobile to laptop and even desktop by just docking it.
The closest ARM based devices will get to this scaling is switching from a ARM to higher end Intel or AMD chip when docked but this will also involve switching from a mobile OS to a desktop one to fully take advantage of the switch.
Though Google is making progress towards making Android a more desktop friendly OS, like with Webtop and similar UI optimizations that take over when docked that would allow Android to take advantage of such scaling but would still be more limited than switching to a true desktop OS that isn't designed with the limits that a mobile OS will have to deal with no matter how the UI is altered and optimized,
Failure of Windows 8 though could well give ARM the advantage.
Intel though is hedging its bets with support for Android and of course the Tizen project. They already bought a company last year that provides them the option to easily switch between two OS instantly, without rebooting.
While they are compensating for what advantages ARM has over them by keeping ahead of the manufacturing shrink curve by at least a year.
So while ARM is heading towards 32 and 28nm productions, Intel is heading toward 22nm and that combined with the architectural updates could potentially start giving Intel the edge.
Mind also that there have been problems with the 28nm production and Intel has strategically not helped ARM with this issue. So time table for many gives them limited time for market penetration before Intel will be able to come out with their own 22nm chips and 14nm is scheduled for 2014.
Also consider that it's not the general consumer market at stake here but also the embedded and server markets, which could give Intel more of a advantage considering that x86 hardware can run pretty much any OS but ARM is still limited to OS already optimized for it.
While ARM is also depending on Windows 8 being a success to provide it a mainstream desktop OS to provide the ability to start competing in the traditional PC markets, and thus would also be negatively effected if Windows 8 fails.
So while ARM is looking good for the rest of this year, it remains to be seen if that will remain true next year and Intel should never be underestimated.
More comments from the same user (CyberGusa):
Right now Intel only has dual core in their higher end ATOM lineup and up to 8 cores for the server market, neither of which are competing with ARM yet.
The upcoming dual core Medfield is mainly just planned for the Tablet market and shouldn't effect the Smart Phone market.
So the main advantage of ARM solutions right now is that they're much more mainstream for the mobile market, with Intel only beginning to compete for the first time. Much like how Nvidia when they first introduced the Tegra and shows slow beginnings are not indicative of how they will do in a year or two.
While as already mentioned the Intel ATOM's are still using pretty much the same architecture as when it was first introduced to the market in 2008. This is like comparing the Cortex A15 to the older Cortex A8 based ARM chips and having the Cortex A8 solution still holds its own.
So having it even come in the same ball park is actually a testament to how much ARM still has to catch up for the higher performance range they're only now entering.
Mind beating the ATOM isn't really hard, as that's the bottom of Intel's chip offerings, with the Core i-Series offering multiples times better performance that ARM is still years away from even getting close to.
While the next gen ATOM's coming out next year are Intel's equivalent of a A15 update to the ATOM. Introducing many of the technology they developed for Ivy Bridge to the ATOM.
Like Intel's Tri-Gate Transistors, a HD 4000 based GMA, putting the entire lineup under SoC, offering a wider range of processor configurations, finally adding Out Of Order Processing to the ATOM, among many other improvements.
While ARM manufacturers are having problems, the delay in moving to 28nm being the most outstanding right now, which is why many are still opting for 32nm. Especially those who have yet to deal with the increased problem of power leakage as they continue to shrink the FAB.
Even Apple is still on 45nm with their latest iPad and had to increase the battery size by 70% to compensate for the increased power consumption of the retina display and the quad core GPU's requires.
So they may up their game but it's going to get harder for them here on out as ARM was designed for low power and low performance and need time to evolve to be able to apply itself to higher end applications.
While Intel already dominates the higher end and just wants to start penetrating into the lower end and that's going to be arguably easier for them to do than for ARM to keep on increasing its performance.
Mind, ARM is still a 32bit architecture and only recently introduced designs for 64bit. This means they're still years away from going fully 64bit and for now we're only going to see enhancements like 64bit memory management.
While it's not easy to continue providing increasing performance and still keep costs and power consumption low. Also ARM customizations has the down side of increased hardware fragmentation.
So it's not like Intel doesn't stand a chance, it's just going to take awhile to see if they can really start competing in the mobile market or have to stay in the higher end PC market.
Comment as you see fit, and keep in mind these are just opinions, not facts !!!
First...
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Even if Intel is not on top by then they will make sure the bar is set high. Good read.
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Good read. If Intel is truly interested in advancing the mobile field, I can see them doing big things in the future. At the very least, the competition they bring to the market will keep everyone else on their toes.
Transmission sent from a Galaxy S II, CODENAME style.
intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
Oh and Intel is known for making low battery consumption processors. Can't wait for that by them making small chips only nanometers big
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kc_exactly said:
Competition premotes innovation. I have read that the next few generations of processors are already developed but they only release one at a time to guarantee profits and to not outrun what they have. So, with more chips in competition this will help us see better processors faster. It will also lower cost. So, a phone might cost the same 4 years from now instead of more. I personally think it is a great idea. Even if there chips weren't much better they still will help. It is a win win for the consumer. Great article!
Sent from Team KC's founding member HTC Evo 4G LTE.
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Click to collapse
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
peryp9 said:
In my personal opinion, I think Intel does make outstanding processors, but their marketing skills are not customer friendly. Take for example the numerous options for the speed of a processor they sell...
let's say the new processor X came out with speeds of 1.6 GHz, and then 3 months later, they come out with the same processor X but with improved speeds of 2.2 GHz at 40% increased cost... and after another 3 months they release the Black Edition processor X with the ultimate speed of 2.4 GHz at double and even triple the price of the original !!!
Do you honestly think they will redesign the production line just to make the new and improved Black Edition processor X ??? I don't think so... In my opinion, they're probably selling the exact same processor X from the beginning to the end, but they slow down the speed in the early versions and they gradually release to full potential ... In this way, they sell the same processor (which cuts down the design/engineering and production costs) yet they stay very profitable and ahead of the market curve by announcing an improved product every 3 months !!!
In other words, the same processor X will sell as follows:
1st release) Speed minus 40% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price
2nd release) Speed minus 30% (no overclock) ... "Regular" price + 15%
...................................................................................
...................................................................................
Black Edition) Speed and overclock unlocked ... "Regular" price + 300%
The worst thing they ever did (starting with Core processors, such as i3, i5...) was to incorporate the video card into the processor, and to lock out other video card vendors from the system ... In this way, they sell the processor AND the video card at the same time, and there's no more competition at the same time !!! They call this bull **** integration something like "system on a chip" for better power consumption ... WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME ANYONE LOOKED FORWARD TO INSTALLING AND BENCHMARKING INTEL VIDEO CARDS IN THEIR COMPUTERS ??? Why do you think AMD bought ATI video card manufacturer ?
And you think it wouldn't get any worst ? Recently Intel started to sell their TOP OF THE LINE PROCESSORS without their video integrated cards ... That means that us, the consumers, have to PAY EXTRA FOR LESS PRODUCT just to get away from their marketing schemes !!!
In the end, we probably pay "regular" price when processor X is introduced, then it's all profits from there on for Intel.
Now back to cell phones ... think of the same scenario applied to your phone with Intel Inside ...
The above are just my personal opinions on Intel ... tell me if I'm wrong ! Say thanks if you believe I helped you open your eyes !
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Click to collapse
Since when Intel has Black Edition CPU?
And about locking out other video card vendors from the system, are you sure you know what you talking about?
locoboi187 said:
intel will show other processor companies how its done. their technology is quality when compared to AMD. but AMD tries to be more innovative. in the end i went with expensive intel to build my computer
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Intel can school everyone else on microprocessor development, manufacturing, budget, evolution...but...x86 is known power hungry. I'm sure if they keep reducing their process (which they will) they can get x86 to match arm, energy consumption wise. But, on the same token, ARM will (WILL) get developed to a point where they will match x86 performance wise.
It's anybodies race. It's early (yes, very early) in the mobile computing game. Intel could very well pull through with it's very refined architecture....that's also regarded as crufty as fnck. The ARM architecture could very well also be refined to the point where they get as many operations per clock...both neck-and-neck on power efficiency.
All said, I'm both excited and doubtful in intel's ability. Microsoft is becoming irrelevant at an amazing speed...perhaps it's intel's turn as well. Wintel? Armdroid? A mix of the two?
Exciting times. Bring on the competition.
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xeon server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. They did not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did, they wouldn't pounce like they did on amd... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
lilotimz said:
Intel never had something called "black editions". They have processors known as "Extreme editions" which are the highest quality bin CPU's which did not get chosen for the Xenon's server cpus. These costs $999.
The next batch would be the second highest binned ones , which would costs ~$500. Then the next are the average ones which did passed all the tests but wasn't as high quality as the higher end models. These are the $200-300 ones.
The rest probably get thrown out.
Now the their integrated solution is a step foward in providing all in one solutions. Not locking out video card makers who make discrete chipsets which absolutely crushes the integrated HD 2000/3000's. What makes these integrated solutions so attractive is the fact the their intel sync (?) encoding and other stuff is literally mind blowing.
You probably don't even know what you're talking about... like seriously? BE's are AMD's.... video makers are mainly dedicated with PCI-e interfaces....
*Edit*
Intel innovates crazily when pushed heavily. AMD punished Intel for its pentium 4 and forced them either step up or be irrelevant and stepped up they did... conroe... nehalam... clarksfield...sandy bridge.. ivy bridge...
I have no reason to believe if Arm shoved into intel into a corner like AMD did... let's just say.. if history has taught us anything... I' would feel really bad for ARM due to intels insane budgets, R&D, and advanced chipmaking facilities..
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Click to collapse
Intel Black Edition ... Intel Extreme Edition ... the idea was "top of the line". Look at the point I'm trying to make, not the wrong words I used.
Intel may claim that their integrated graphics are great for many thing, but look at the larger picture... pay premium dollar for the ability to use the video card of your choice !!
EDIT: The cheapest processor comes with integrated graphics, while the most expensive one comes without it. I remember when I bought my laptop a few years back (1st generation Intel i5). I was reading about Intel not allowing manufacturers to put other cards in order to bypass the integrated one. In the end, I bought this Intel i5 laptop with NVidia GeForce 325M with Optimus. Check to see how Optimus works with Intel's integrated card and you'll understand what I meant in my previous post.
In the end, the main point I'm trying to get across, is that Intel's products are great (except their video cards) but their marketing scheme will hurt the consumers if they take control of the mobile processor.
All the info by the commenter not withstanding, I have a hard time taking anyone who uses "effect" instead of "affect" seriously.
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Ok, so I just ordered a Mi Max 128GB/4GB for Black Friday (from geekbuying) and was wondering if this device can actually support OpenGL ES 3.2, and I am asking if it can support it hardware-wise cause I know it won't work on android <7.0, so anyone know?
Adreno 5xx series GPU's have full support for EGL 3.2 with Android extension along with Vulkan support. So it's expected that they will be supported in Android 7~7.1.
Edit: & Android 7.0.1 is definitely coming (probably early next year in stable update):
http://en.miui.com/thread-420161-1-1.html
Zola III said:
Adreno 5xx series GPU's have full support for EGL 3.2 with Android extension along with Vulkan support. So it's expected that they will be supported in Android 7~7.1.
Edit: & Android 7.0.1 is definitely coming (probably early next year in stable update):
http://en.miui.com/thread-420161-1-1.html
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Click to collapse
Thank you, that's what I was expecting as well but even on Qualcomm's site the specs of the 510 are not clearly stated, also good to know we will in fact get 7.0.1 (although I plan to stay away from MIUI).
This should mean we might even be able to get at least somewhat decent Wii&GC emulation on this device in the future which is pretty exciting for me since there are still a lot of games I bought and never got around to finishing or even playing.
Ranomez said:
Thank you, that's what I was expecting as well but even on Qualcomm's site the specs of the 510 are not clearly stated, also good to know we will in fact get 7.0.1 (although I plan to stay away from MIUI).
This should mean we might even be able to get at least somewhat decent Wii&GC emulation on this device in the future which is pretty exciting for me since there are still a lot of games I bought and never got around to finishing or even playing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't have to high hopes that Dolphine emulator will fly on Adreno 510, the driver's especially sheder compiler are far cry from anything good also hardware capabilities (EGLS 3.2, Testilation engine & Vulkan compatibility) don't count much without proper & good driver's support. On the current Android gaming scene A510 is wonderful but it won't shy with Dolphine (nothing will, best behaviour you will have with New Rogue series [Imagination Technology] but their is no any newer SoC for Android with it we will see how will MTK X30 behave 2Q next year).
Edit: By the way this whose a best deal for it when I searched wanting to buy a full prime one in the mean time I decided not to go with it & instead both a 3/32GB S650 version in land where I live. But search again me by you can find a better deal.
https://toponedigital.aliexpress.com/store/group/Xiaomi-MAX/342812_507286278.html
Best regards.
Zola III said:
Don't have to high hopes that Dolphine emulator will fly on Adreno 510, the driver's especially sheder compiler are far cry from anything good also hardware capabilities (EGLS 3.2, Testilation engine & Vulkan compatibility) don't count much without proper & good driver's support. On the current Android gaming scene A510 is wonderful but it won't shy with Dolphine (nothing will, best behaviour you will have with New Rogue series [Imagination Technology] but their is no any newer SoC for Android with it we will see how will MTK X30 behave 2Q next year).
Edit: By the way this whose a best deal for it when I searched wanting to buy a full prime one in the mean time I decided not to go with it & instead both a 3/32GB S650 version in land where I live. But search again me by you can find a better deal.
https://toponedigital.aliexpress.com/store/group/Xiaomi-MAX/342812_507286278.html
Best regards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did not say it would fly but it would have at least somewhat decent performance which for me means playable, especially since most of the games I want to play are for GC not Wii and are RPG games (except perhaps the Sonic Adventure games but I can play the DC version of those if the performance is too bad), the only few Wii games I would like to play would anyway not be practical (if possible at all) because they use the huge mess that the Wiimote is (mainly Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World).
Plus I have seen Snapdragon 808 with the 7.0 dev preview (OpenGL ES 3.2 supported) running Dolphin quite well and even with lower performance that would be enough for me.
Either way I would probably end up starting the games and not finishing them for a long time as I keep doing, start them while traveling and then too busy with College and stuff to finish them and then start an other game (like I did with 7th Dragon 3 on my 3DS, Tales of Eternia for PSP and countless others) but it would still be nice to know I at least have the possibility of playing those games on the go.
Well A518 can all A418 on S808 can & probably a little more in time when drivers support all capabilities along with games/emus. Then that is settled its enough for you & it is a pleasurable experience to play on such a large display.
Best regards.