Develop Bugs

about recent hostilities

Sorry this is so long but I feel strongly about this.
I too have few posts as anyone can see. I joined in Sep '06 but have been an avid reader of this forum since my company bought me a Siemens SX66 several years ago.
While I have noticed a marked decline in the quality of posts on this site, I have also seen an amazing increase in the quality of products the senior people have put out.
I think this fact coupled with the rising popularity of Windows Mobile and HTC products is inviting more and more people who would be otherwise too scared to try flashing their expensive gear to feel comfortable enough to give it a go.
Personally, I consider this a hobbyist site and as such, while the senior people will only gain experience and become more adept at their hobby, the noobs will continue to be noobs with the same noob questions, just more of them.
If this site is ever to work as an open hobbyist site, then I think it behooves everyone to step back and take a breath and think about what that goal will require.
1) Seniors - as your skills improve, and you work in this hobby more and more, you will inevitably see more and more of the same questions. Have mercy on the noobs. Truly some are lazy leechers others are perhaps "just getting their feet wet." Everyone has to start somewhere and sometimes that "start" begins with what you may think is a dumb question but is considered valid to the user asking it.
2) Noobs - think about your questions before you ask them. Realize that you are getting the benefits of senior people in this hobby and treat them accordingly. They are doing more to give you free "customer service" than the companies that you gave your money to in the first place.
3) Everyone - I see this problem as having many smaller pieces that perhaps can be improved to help create a better environment.
a) The built-in vBulletin search function sucks arse. Someone posted how to search this site using Google. Perhaps removing the built-in search would get people more familiar with a better search tool and perhaps return more relevant entries.
b) Pay to play - If you are a serious hobbyist then paying a subscription fee to gain access to the hard work others have done should be worth it. You can't or won't pay then you are on your own.
c) Private or Tiered forum for more Senior folks. Entry could be by application/invite allowing a senior moderator to evaluate the applicants quality of participation first. This would also force noobs to start contributing to the group versus just leeching.
Lastly, I have seens several posts where it is obvious that English is not their first or even learned language. I have read the wiki for my device and I have had to read parts several times to understand them. I think for many to whom the language might be a barrier to participation a little extra patience should be granted.
This is an absolutely awesome forum. I have been a benefactor of the work others have done and have several devices that are much more usable, enjoyable and longer lived because of this site. It would be a shame for this forum to crumble under the weight of the hostility that has been present the last few months.
Please, let's all find a way to keep this site useful, friendly and enjoyable for all of its participants.

Some good points but I personally don't have any problems with the search as you have got the options to search the forums, narrowing down your options, and the search this thread to really go deeper.
What I have seen on other forums is - like you say in point c - a lockdown of specific groups until you've got a certain number of posts/been around for a while/been approved so that it can be established that you're familiar with the forum and don't just post crap/leech stuff. Maybe something like that could be employed.
But let's face it, the quality of releases lately has brought far more attention to this forum rather than those who would come here because they knew what they were doing.
Just my thoughts.

If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.

I agree with most of what you say.
I have been on this forum for more than 4 years now and it's been the best forum I have ever used to play around with my "toys".
Noobs are noobs and I even ask silly questions sometimes but I think that this site should remain the same.... It's a gold mine for every person like me wanting to play around and get the best out of his toy.
Long life to this forum

I've been on so many forums for so long and all of the ones that are any good have these very same issues. I recently read a post on a forum of another open source project that I absolutely love (Handbrake) and I think the post you can find here by one of their chief developers has some correlation to this current situation.
If you're too lazy to mosie over to the link...the gist of the post is that open source projects are just that. They are open sourced. That doesn't mean one has carte blanche to ask for help on this or that, to ask for this feature or that feature, to whine and complain, to moan and groan, or to trash somebody's work when it doesn't work like you want it to. It means that a usually small but dedicated group of individuals got together and tried to find a solution to a problem that they had. In the case of this post...it's about open source software...but I think you could say the same thing about ROM cooking here. There is enough information here that if you see or try something that doesn't work for you...try to fix it yourself (or as many have stated...search and see if it's already been fixed by someone). But in the end...I don't think you'll ever stamp out noob crap entirely. Think about it...just walk down the street or turn on your television or flip on your radio...how many idiots do you see or hear? Trust me...we are far outnumbered... But maybe...with a little help...we can at least edumacate em a little bit.

richy240 said:
If people are offended by Senior members when they ask a stupid question, then they can go somewhere else. HoFo is a great place for beginners. And since ROM flashing isn't a task fot for a beginner, there is no place here for those members.
Sure, I've asked stupid questions, been confused, etc., but I normally seek out a solution. Many n00bs (as they're commonly called) just ask without searching - and that's often obvious to those who are willing to read a 55-page thread.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the ROM kitchen. Period.
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Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
The procedure how to get the info you need:
READ > SEARCH > THINK > POST
Sequence is important in that case!
Same applies to posts made entirely in language other than English > these are useless for vast majority of readers, please consider sending a PM when talking to your nationals.
'nuff said. Long live the XDA-Dev!

I think most of the gripes are about pointless posts eg, "whoohoo!", "cool", "downloading now" that just take up space and make getting to the valuable posts more difficult. Then there are the noob questions that are simple to answer but extremely annoying when repeating many many times. I am a noob to this forum and this phone but not about computers and porgramming. I have also made a donation to jasjamming and wish him the best. My proposal to end some of the madness is to seperate out the type of posts, which seem to be threefold 1. appreciation/useless banter 2. noob questions/simple questions 3. decent and high quality posts that make xda dev a great forum. So one thread about technical stuff that will contain good and useful info and another being the noob questions useless banter. Maybe split the noob questions and appreciation thread and forget about one or the other. This will make the mods life a lot easier and make reading the forum a lot more palatable and organise the threads in a meaningful way. Again sorry to see jasjamming go so soon after joining this forum. Hope he comes back at some stage.

KarhU said:
Totally agree on that. Root of the problem seems to be low propensity to read given by large amounts of useless threads/posts, which makes it harder to search as well. By ignoring the reading/searching phase there is even more clutter being made.
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Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.

Perhaps creating/moving this and other hardcore forums to private/access controlled area would help.
HoFo is part of the trouble but so is Google and search bots which read public forums. That brings a lot of new readers/noobs.
I've been on sites that have both public and private fora, and the Google/non approved members can't get at the private side which helps a lot.
Just so long as I'm a member of the private side.

Personally i think this forum would work better if there were more forums, say inside the hermes mobile 6 one there was one for each rom. Then if users were encouraged to post new topics for different faults the stupid pointless topics could just be ignored and end up pages back or even deleted while the usefull topics would stay near the top with only relavent content inside.
Anyway thats not for me to decide and just to note i hardly ever feel the need to post cos i've always found a fix for my problems by reading. It might take a few mins longer to find an answer than to start a post but it saves you looking stupid.

I fully support the idea of a subscription to the forums. I'm a member of another subscription-based forum, and it leads to more productive posts and queries, better quality of member base, and an intelligent quorum. That site is $9.95 for a lifetime membership, less a ban of course -- and I find that more than fair.
I don't post much either, I just soak up knowledge here. I try not to ask questions unless absolutely necessary, and instead reap the benefits from the great minds at work..

I love the forum and I think we all agree on this point. I am a moderator on several other PDA related sites. I know first hand how hard it can be to try and get the new folks to use the search function and read The Bold Print but I have found with my experience that using post counts to advance members to hidden forums only invites spam and useless posts. I can also say that wading through 80 sum pages of "thank you's" and "questions that where answered in the first post but I just looked for the link to download and didn't read" posts, is long and quite aggravating. Also trying to use the search function for things like finding a fix to an MMS problem is near to imposable. What I have seen here recently that I like is when something is released like a new WM6 build, there could be 2 treads started one for real questions (Advanced) and issues and one for the new folks to ask there new folk questions (Beginners). Not restricting access to the "Advance" tread, just the ability to post. I don't mind helping the new folks a little because I was new once. I can also say that I read information on this site for 4 days before I attempted to flash a new rom to my device. ( was scared to death ) and some of the questions the new folks asked, I also wanted the answer too. Lots of times some senior member would help them with a link or advice and this helped me also. I think if anything you should have to be a member here for say 3 or 4 days before you are allowed to post. Then maybe a week or two before you could post in the "Advanced" threads. This would hopefully send more new folks eager to find the answers to there questions, into the forums using the search and reading the comment of others a little more closely.
Just my thoughts
JD

I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!

Thanks button?
I will now throw my 2 cents in as well. I too have not posted much, but have managed to upgrade the ROM on my Hermes a few times without having to seek "professional help". I think we all appreciate the effrorts of the few that provide the rewards for the many. I used to be a SuperMod on a SonyEricsson modding site (before I found the Windows Mobile joy).
I have seen a "Thanks Button" used quite effectively - I think it is in the newer releases of vBulletin. It cuts a lot of the crap. Also, I would support a "no post for 10 days" and "read only, except by invitation" threads.
If you can express gratitude simply, have to read and learn for 10 days (and you KNOW they won't wait to try the flash) and get to read what the Seniors and Mods are saying and download the fruits of their labors, but cannot interfere, I think that would raise the quality of the experience for everyone. Sorry I went so long - I love XDA and want to see it continue to dominate.
PS: It is funny to see someone with the nick "poopmongrel" lamenting the low quality of the forum participants - ;-) That isn't meant to be mean, just funny!

richy240 said:
Yeah. The problem is compounding itself. I think we should continue to offend the n00bs that way they go away and quit asking stupid questions.
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Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.

chenga said:
Does that really work? Or do the n00bs just argue back? It seems recently they will just start arguing that "I did search, you *expletive*" or something like that.
If there were a way to rate individual posts like Digg and Slashdot, then you could set a ratings threshold (like view all rated > -1) and not even see the n00b posts that other people flagged unless you specifically click to expand the hidden post.
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Click to collapse
I don't know... Probably not. I was really just talking out of my ass. But when someone answers like that, they obviously shouldn't expect an accurate answer. If someone said that to me after answering a question, I wouldn't give them the time of day.

Wasn't everybody a n00b at one time?
It would be a shame to 'close the forum down' to noobs. There's a first for everything. And -yes!- noobs can ask stupid questions, but you could just ignore them. I've read some good suggestions reading the threads complaining about the newbies on this forum. ("thank you button", "noob area" and "a timeslot between downloading/registering" eg.)
Without this forum I'm pretty sure my Hermes would still run on WM5 since there's no real alternative to this forum. The senior members and chefs provide information (at least I) could not find anywhere else. Like many junior members (I guess) I spend the most time reading and not posting. Reading and learning. So getting 'senior' by just posting will not improve the forum quality.
To bad some (a) chef(s) are just so fed up they don't share their work anymore, but I can understand. People should be more gratefull for their hard work. Especially if you do not have the skills to cook a rom yourself!

I think the problem is more than just asking questions, even basic ones. It is the attitude of some users who seem to expect the contributors of the ROMs to support them. As a software developer myself, I've experienced many such types who think that just because they downloaded your software for free, they are entitled to your support. I believe it is this sort of "stupidity" and arrogance that really gets the goat of those who work hard to contribute something.
In this case, the fault isn't merely one of tolerance, it is one of attitude. If a guy comes in and gets free stuff from you, and then turns back and demand you fix their machine, while bad-mouthing you - surely you can see how this will make the whole enterprise un-worthwhile for the contributor. Not only are they not getting any tangible remuneration for their work, they are now having to put up with such arrogance. Now, who in their right mind would want to continue contributing in a community that is unappreciative (though arguably there will always be those who are appreciative).
The key then is to keep the unappreciative out until they learn some respect and appreciation. When they learn that what they're getting is not a right but a privilege, out of the goodwill of the contributors. If they are not happy, they can go elsewhere and not use the product. If they're sincere, then they should make the effort to learn. Regardless of the complaints of how hard it is to use the search function (how hard can it be??). In this case the onus is NOT on the contributors but on the end-user.
I see this kind of scenario happening:-
1. Newbie hears about WM6 and thinks its so cool.
2. Pesters friend for link and ends up here.
3. Get excited at the level of activity and prospect of getting something for free.
4. Get frustrated because they don't know where to start.
5. Post basic questions about which is the best ROM etc.
6. Decides to go with the "best" ROM.
7. Bricks the machine or finds a bug or loses some features.
8. Get frustrated and angry and vents at the ROM chefs (or Olipro.
9. Tries to read site for the first time but too lazy to work through the posts (it does take time but that is expected.)
10. Pester others to help them unbrick their machine.
11. Unbricks machine and starts again with another ROM variant.
12. Cycle repeats itself.
I'm not saying that all newbies are like this. Many lurkers actually read through all the related posts. The problem we're facing has to do with those who want the benefits without having to spend the time reading and researching and learning some general knowledge about the ROM flashing process. To make things worse, these same types usually have attitudes of self-righteous indignation which makes them a pain to tolerate. This is the kind of person you want to keep out of the community. IMO.
Daniel

swtaltima said:
I am new here and have refrained from posting until now. I have been using jj's WM VI 2.0 for a couple of days now (best so far) and must say that I find what is going on here to be quite annoying. My reason for being annoyed is because I have had my 8525 for several months now and have recently become quite bored with it, awaiting the release of new devices so I could have a new toy. Well jasjamming changed that with a couple rom updates.
All I am saying is for all of the noobs here including myself, "beggars cant be choosers" If the people that generously make these rom updates and advice available want us to do something in order to make this equitable for them, then we need to do as they wish without question. What is so difficult about this? Especially since it really doesn't seem like there asking much in return.
Just think about it, from what I see we all eagerly await each and every new release and now people are upset like me because we like having access to these updates and now we don't. I just think it is wasteful to disrupt such a wonderful arrangement.
Just my .02 but I really enjoy this site and would hate to see it change.
On a side note... I really enjoy this site so for all parties involved in creating/ maintaining this sight, many thanks!
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Click to collapse
I have to agree here. What ticks me off is the fact that alot of people here come in, flash a ROM without reading or researching then DEMAND a solution...not once...not twice...but sometimes three and four times in a short time span.
I have no right to DEMAND someone to fix something that either (1) I caused; (2) I didn't read enough to see that it was a known issue and flashed anyway; (3) a known issue with an open source software on a DEVELOPER's sight with I am NOT a developer.
What I see the issue to be is ingratitude, sense of entitlement and tender emotions. If you're feelings are going to get hurt then you shouldn't post. The developers here don't owe anybody here a thing. Plain and simple.
Politically correct? No. Do I care? No.
Jim

I Love Xda-developers.com!
Spread The Peace!

Forbidding "best ROM/best app"/comparison topics is so wrong.

Well, while browsing the forum I've observed such a wrong attitude: moderators are closing topics where people makes comparison between different things, may it be ROMS, software, etc.
Examples:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=428372
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=449641
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=454243
Sorry, but the moderation team SHOULD know the following:
- there are people that have tested many ROMS/applications
- there are people who don't have time to test n applications/ROMS
So what's wrong if ONE that had tested multiple ROMs share his opinions with the rest? What's wrong in telling us about the most stable ROM? I've also read something like "Test all the ROMS and see what's the best for you".. So, for eg, I have to flash all the ROMS to find out which one is the most stable .. instead reading other user suggestion that had already done that.. So WRONG and redundant.
Of course you can read other users opinions about a ROM in its dedicated thread , but a summary thread it's most valuable for many of us.
So, please, do not restrict this kind of topics!

There are some good posts (maybe even by me ) on why these threads are a bad idea, but I cannot find one of them for the life in me. So off the top of my head...
These threads are very subjective, each person has there own opinion on what a good ROM is and (maybe more inflamtary) who their favorite chef is.
There have been ROM review threads in the past, that's not a problem - PURESKILLZ flashed reviewed every kaiser ROM for a while (with screen shots).
And most moderators will let a "Can you recommend me a good arabic* ROM" thread, if correctly placed.
*Replace with some other niche requirement.
The main problem is ROM's come and go, I remember when Dutty's Hybrid Kaiser ROM's were the Dogs Bollocks, now I prefer something newer. Even what I prefer changes daily, last week it was minimal plain today screens, this week I felt like a Full Manila 2D ROM. How can this sort of thing be maintained? A collection of conflicting opinions of many users. How would chefs feel if people started to rate them against on anyother, i.e. is Noonski better than Dutty? Also, the threads are often started by noob's and never maintained so will soon become redundant.
The easiest way to see the latest ROM's is to check the 1st page or 2 of the "[device name] ROM development / Upgrading" forum.
Also, this is a Development site, Kyphur say's it best here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
Thanks
Dave

If these kinds of posts would have proven to help they'd probably would be allowed.
They can serve the developers.
The prove of this is that some Comparison threads are still alive and kicking, because they compare in a professional manner
But in most cases they turn into nasty Food Fights that manage to get the developers of the apps being compared to give up because of the rudeness of the posts.
So as helping and creating an environment for Developers has a higher priority then having people express their opinions we'd rather not take the risk.
PS: Dutty is better then me.
But we both make different PERSONAL decisions on what we do. See the keyword "Personal" even thought everyone knows better, it's very easy to take it personal even when it ain't. Some handle it better then others, but why make life harder?

To repeat and possibly elaborate on what my esteemed colleagues have already stated:
A good Comparison Thread for Roms, Applications etc can always be useful. The problem is that "Which is the best" is a very subjective thing and so often the posters get into verbal sparring in defense of their fav at the moment.
There have been examples of good comparison threads where a complete analysis of each Rom/Application was given but the the "Fanbois" have come in and polluted the thread to the point that it just had to be trashed.
Read the post in my signature (and many others I've noticed) about "What is XDA-Devs?", enjoy the journey by trying them yourself....

I can see your point guys.. and you are right.. But you must agree that even if the user isn't developing something for WM/mobiles that doesn't mean that he's stupid or smth. That's true that many people ask really dumb questions for such site..
What motivates a developer? Feedback and money. Yes, feedback. Feedback coming from regular users. Why are developers releasing ROMS? Because they want to help others (esp. regular users, non-dev segment). Why some developers are releasing more versions frequently? Yes, because of feedback. Because they know that they don't work in vain. Even negative feedback is extremely good. It makes you to do the work better, to work more on it. Competition (vs things) is also good.
If this site was meant only for developing proposes then almost all the information was meant for: learning, sharing, evolving. And I mean only in "development style".
Also, here we can see many forums dedicated to Applications, even themes. Actually there are MORE forums for this instead for Development. See my topic "Development and Hacking" should be splitted. This should be addressed ASAP. If xda-developers is more organized in this area maybe more valuable developing information will be found.
You are all right but you miss one point, your work without the regular people is in vain. Let's say you talk here only about developing , but if you release an application you feel that you want to share it with the rest.. but if there are only developers , who can and know to program the application, then there's no joy..
If there is no question, there's no answer.
So I must say you should be more flexible with comparison threads and if someone post in "noob style" just warn/suspend him. Even if we are subjective, many of us have same tastes. Plus the user can point/explain why he choose that ROM/app. But you're right ,many people just don't elaborate it's choice, some say only "x is the best" without anything more
Sorry if I was not too coherent, I don't feel so good

The old aphorism comes to mind: A blind man will not thank you for a looking-glass.
More aptly put:
"People ask for criticism, but they only want praise." -- W. Somerset Maugham​
Those who present their creations to the vicessitudes of public reception ought to expect their creations to be scrutinized and judged by those receiving it. Any individual that considers a product (i.e., something that has been produced) is charged with the duty of determining its efficacy based on face value. In the context of this community, this action is done by evaluating the presentation of the application or ROM via screen shots, description, cost (monetary or otherwise), perhaps even the source, etcetera. The point here is that before anyone even downloads a product, it is evaluated. Once received: form, function, aesthetics, etcetera lend themselves to further scrutiny, evaluation, and judgment.
It is ridiculous to censor value-judgments. Value-judgments are the driving force behind progression and innovation. This forum, for example, wouldn't even exist were it not for the fact that one day, an individual decided that the efficacy of XDA development would be improved by abrogating the the sparsely populated niche blogs and decentralized developers and replacing them with a centralized and synergistic community of experts. More to the point, the progressions and innovations, even within this community, occur because the status quo has been evaluated and judged.
As an example, let us observe a recent phenomenon that has occurred here: Manilla 2D (and 3D) has largely replaced HTC Home. Why? Clearly it wasn't because developers and members alike humored the ridiculous notion of "judge not, let ye be not judged."

dumpydooby said:
The old aphorism comes to mind: A blind man will not thank you for a looking-glass.
More aptly put:
"People ask for criticism, but they only want praise." -- W. Somerset Maugham​.....
It is ridiculous to censor value-judgments .....
As an example, let us observe a recent phenomenon that has occurred here: Manilla 2D (and 3D) has largely replaced HTC Home. Why? Clearly it wasn't because developers and members alike humored the ridiculous notion of "judge not, let ye be not judged."
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Click to collapse
My 2 cts:
Nicely put, but (in my opinion) you still miss some points:
-value judgments are allowed, everybody is free to post their opinion about a certain ROM in the appropiate thread (obiding the rules of decency ofcourse).
So some of your quotes aren't applicable.
-There is no "best ROM", just as clearly there is no best "politial party", not a "best religion" or the "best way to raise a kid", that is because everybody have different needs, different values, and different ways of observation.
What is good for one, is bad or even harmfull for another, or just an insult. Please keep that in mind.
And because of this phenomena general threads like best ROM don't add value but only clutter, it's impossible to get general consensis.
Objective threads on the other hand are constructive.
You can take a variable like speed, indexing etc and measure that, and everybody knows that eg. a higher value for speed is better.
I think we tend to keep the forum as it is: a developers forum, so we naturally tend to judge numbers, and we attach higher values upon numbers that on personal feelings.
Disclaimer:
Please note that this post is a reflection of my own opinion and should not be seen as the general opinion of the moderator team or XDA-developers!

dumpydooby said:
The old aphorism comes to mind: A blind man will not thank you for a looking-glass.
More aptly put:"People ask for criticism, but they only want praise." -- W. Somerset Maugham​Those who present their creations to the vicessitudes of public reception ought to expect their creations to be scrutinized and judged by those receiving it. Any individual that considers a product (i.e., something that has been produced) is charged with the duty of determining its efficacy based on face value. In the context of this community, this action is done by evaluating the presentation of the application or ROM via screen shots, description, cost (monetary or otherwise), perhaps even the source, etcetera. The point here is that before anyone even downloads a product, it is evaluated. Once received: form, function, aesthetics, etcetera lend themselves to further scrutiny, evaluation, and judgment.
It is ridiculous to censor value-judgments. Value-judgments are the driving force behind progression and innovation. This forum, for example, wouldn't even exist were it not for the fact that one day, an individual decided that the efficacy of XDA development would be improved by abrogating the the sparsely populated niche blogs and decentralized developers and replacing them with a centralized and synergistic community of experts. More to the point, the progressions and innovations, even within this community, occur because the status quo has been evaluated and judged.
As an example, let us observe a recent phenomenon that has occurred here: Manilla 2D (and 3D) has largely replaced HTC Home. Why? Clearly it wasn't because developers and members alike humored the ridiculous notion of "judge not, let ye be not judged."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you've really completely missed the point. The logic behind closing these threads is very simple, and has been already stated many times. It was determined long ago that these type of threads do more harm than good, and as such was made a rule here at XDA long before most of the people complaining about this issue even joined the site. Since it's a rule, the moderators enforce it.
It's nice to think that the "best app/rom" threads could somehow be a good place where healthy discussion could flourish, and users could provide constructive praise & criticism, but anyone who does any quantity of reading knows that the majority of people interested in "best rom/app" threads don't have any basis for constructive criticism, as they probably haven't flashed enough roms to know the difference between them.
As for you example of Manila2D/Manila3D, we all know that came to replace HTC Home for a very simple reason, which is that people want what's new, even if it isn't better. In that particular example i happen to prefer the manila interfact to HTC Home, but as a general rule it still remains true. That's why users who can't even read an error message to figure out they need to install netcf are always installing beta software, and then filling threads with questions. Not that i'm against them trying new software, but if you're gonna start something that's over your head, you oughta get prepared to start learning.
Anyway, I suppose the point to all of this is mostly the same as what Mike said, which is that obviously we can see the conceptual value to having these threads where users could post the things they do/don't like about roms/apps, but like many things in live it just doesn't work out in the way it should. Since users are allowed to post their thoughts and their criticisms about a rom in the thread for that rom, where the chef will definiitely read it, I don't feel like we're impeding anyone's ability to voice their opinions. All we require is that they are respectful when they share it.

I will admit to being one of the mods who may be, in your opinion, quick to squelch these best of threads.
When asked why I was closing so many "Which is the Best ROM" threads in the Kaiser section, I replied the following.
Thank you for your opinion. The Guidelines for the Kaiser Section were not invented by me solely and for no reason.
The reasons most Kaiser Mods discourage this type of thread, is these threads not only can create hard feelings between chefs but has been known to lead to all out flame wars
If you want to know peoples personal opinions on ROM, you are more than welcome to ask these questions in the ROM thread.
Also, the Kaiser forum is very active and placing peoples opinions of ROMs in the ROM Thread, where the chef can see and respond to such opinions, is more helpful to the community at large.
This guideline was not created to stop personal opinions and speech. But to lead to a better organized Forum Section.
Thanks,
Jimmy McGee
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Those are still my sentiments. I once asked Scotchua about his favorite ROM. I tried it, and honestly I didn't like it. But that's ok, Scotchua and I have different priorities. As most people do.
There was once a thread, again in the Kaiser Section, (Can you tell what phone I use?) asking what the best IM app was. That thread is still open today. The Discussion was very civil and spoke of the equatable statistics of each IM app. Like which ones used proxies, which ones didn't, what once were free, and which ones cost. Since these programs were focused on the same end goal, To Send IMs via MSN, AIM or Yahoo!, it was easy to compare.
But this is not the case with ROMs, NATF started off making "Lean" ROMs for the Kaiser, while Leo was making "Fully Loaded" ROMs. These are two different categories that cannot be compared as easily.
Once again thank you for all your input, just remember, you can win all the battles.

woohoo...mike boy...you have hit 10 stars....
btw...yep...completely off-post but i hav a feelin this thread is gonna be trashed soon

A Little Toungue in Cheek
Very... Very well done. If anyone ever questions the intelligence and thoughtfulness of the Mods , they should be directed here. Well thought out answers (I personally am against this type of thread) and nicely conveyed opinions.
When and if another of these threads are closed, I think that this link should be attached, so that the OPs will know that thought was put into the closure and it was not done randomly.
Okay, now to those that think a thread like this could be constructive, I propose a test thread. But let us substitute some thing else for " roms " so as not to alienate any chefs EH............... lets say countries. Here is the new test thread
I am new here and I am trying to determine , " What is the best overall country in the world? " Could someone direct me please?
Okay, I will kick it off.......America, I have found to be the best, land of the free and all that.

agree with Mods
I completely agree with our Mods here, to allow these threads to exist would basically cause competition between the chefs, and that is something that should never happen. In the short time that I have been a member of this site I have learned ALOT by doing my own search, homework, and asking questions. I have made alot of friends on here and have very much grown to, dare I say "love" this site. I would hate to see this site turn into a competition site between chefs. If that happened there would probably be a reality tv series started AbC, CBS, etc... would be trying to buy rights to air "KAISERS HELL KITCHEN" lol, but seriously if there is a competition between chefs we would be loosing out due to the chefs not wanting to share their knowledge, because they are trying to out due each other. they would all be trying to keep their "trade secrets" out of "enemy" hands i guess you could say.
there would be no winner, just alot of us loosing out just to make things easier for newbs instead of them working, reading, and learning as we all have. i've heard some newbs say that they want this because they don't have time like the "regular" members on here do, and one post really kinda brought to lite the lack of motivation to learn: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=3115995&postcount=12 a way they can tell now what roms are hot is check out how many veiws a thread has had, people flock to the popular threads don't they? it also goes back to personal opinion and experience, ex: if two people flash the same rom and one uses the wrong hardspl, radio, and doesn't hard reset and the other does all right who's kaiser will work properly, next you have that newb that didn't use the right spl, radio, etc.. telling everyone that the ex. rom is buggy when in all reality it is not.

All depends on what you want
You're all close, but as a very new post-er to this board here's my thoughts (objectively speaking, the mere existence of a bulletin board/forum is a solicitation for comment, so I know everyone wants to hear what I've got to say!)...
DSF - you're on the right track, and I agree with your idea in general, but not specifically as to "best".
DaveShaw - I agree that there is no "best" ROM. However, you've got the right idea with your "niche", as you call it; it's the "Best for me".
dumpydooby - It is impossible to censor value judgments; I do agree. There must be a reason that the public can join this forum. If it was really intended for developers' eyes only, then you wouldn't be able to post without providing your own custom ROM or App prior to membership.
To quote Head First [Series] Software Development, (O'Reilly Pub.) "Great software development delivers what the customer wants."
the-equinoxe - I agree with you that A thread that simply asks "Which ROM is the best" isn't a valid question (or thread). But, a thread that says "Which ROM does A, B and C the best?" is a valid question. Plus, the-equinoxe, isn't your argument in favor of objectivity on the forum discredited by your "disclaimer" that your post only represents your own personal [subjective] opinion; that it isn't even a consensus of moderators or anything? (I'm just kidding with you on that - no flames here!)
JimmyMcGee - You're right on track with your point about the "best" IM discussion. It's my position that this can be done with ROMs (and should be done; read on).
msd24200 (taking these out of order) - you too are correct that some don't want to learn. But, you've got to remember the concept of "rational ignorance". I use my HTC for work, I need it working like I want it as soon as reasonably possible. I simply don't have time to flash several ROMs, or even spend hours on end Google searching through tons of posts. Just finding xda-developers forum in the first place was a big relief and shortcut for me for tuning up my device. While I'm just as interested in development for the HTC devices as everyone else is, I'm also interested in more things than I could learn about if I took the time for them all. Sometimes I just need the answer and we can all agree that HTC and Microsoft don't provide enough answers (or else this forum would not exist, according to the statement about why this forum was created). Which brings me to...
denco7 - You've hit the nail on the head with your "which country is best" analogy, although you might not have intended to. Let's say I respond to that inquiry and say, "I'd like a country where there is no war, no military, I'm a big banking enthusiast, I like clocks and watches, I like a predominantly cooler climate, am fond of mountains, and find Nordic-type women attractive [as long as I'm being stereotypical I might as well go all out! Please excuse any offense I may cause!]." Your response would then be, "Gee, they've got this Country called Sweden that's a lot like what you've described. You should start there first."
I think there is a section on here for "ROM requests". I couldn't find it, in a brief search, to post a link to it on here (which may suggest this type thread isn't common enough). All posts asking "which ROM is best" should be redirected [presumably by a moderator] to that "mod request" thread/forum/section so that the user can provide more details and then closed and/or deleted. If the area to post requests for recommendations such as this is visible enough (e.g. - I had no problem finding the HTC Raphael area, but I can't seem to locate suggest-a-ROM) then it will end much of the "which ROM is best" posts.
Lastly, there was a forum on www.tweakguides.com (it's still there, but it's closed). The site owner/webmaster, Koroush Ghazi, had a larger-scale issue with noobs who don't do research and post needlessly. It's better explained on the site itself. I have long been a fan of that site and greatly respect Koroush's work and his decision, and reference his site as an excellent resource in general. But as his post points out, there will always be a trade-off between supplying valuable information and objective critique and people who would rather waste time. It's all in how you choose to go about solving that problem once it becomes one (and I don't say that to be critical of what Koroush accomplished with his site or his decision to shut down the forums).
The point to all this; make an easily and quickly identifiable section (as easy as selecting what model of phone you have - with the pictures, or even a dedicated area) for requesting the best ROM FOR X, Y and Z. When I browse through the ROMs section, I just see the various code-names for the ROMs and posts that they are updated. I still don't know what they do. I don't have enough hours in the day to flash a few, or even to really get familiar with this forum. But I'd still like to learn, and the regulars on here are familiar with the forum structure. Just point those seeking the "best ROM" to the area where they can request a ROM that matches their needs without having to research, try, and try again every potential ROM out there. You've got to admit, even for someone involved in technology, learning about WM OS and HTC phones has a learning curve.
That's it, my $0.02 as it goes.

BPB21 said:
You're all close, but as a very new post-er to this board here's my thoughts (objectively speaking, the mere existence of a bulletin board/forum is a solicitation for comment, so I know everyone wants to hear what I've got to say!)...
DSF - you're on the right track, and I agree with your idea in general, but not specifically as to "best".
DaveShaw - I agree that there is no "best" ROM. However, you've got the right idea with your "niche", as you call it; it's the "Best for me".
dumpydooby - It is impossible to censor value judgments; I do agree. There must be a reason that the public can join this forum. If it was really intended for developers' eyes only, then you wouldn't be able to post without providing your own custom ROM or App prior to membership.
To quote Head First [Series] Software Development, (O'Reilly Pub.) "Great software development delivers what the customer wants."
the-equinoxe - I agree with you that A thread that simply asks "Which ROM is the best" isn't a valid question (or thread). But, a thread that says "Which ROM does A, B and C the best?" is a valid question. Plus, the-equinoxe, isn't your argument in favor of objectivity on the forum discredited by your "disclaimer" that your post only represents your own personal [subjective] opinion; that it isn't even a consensus of moderators or anything? (I'm just kidding with you on that - no flames here!)
JimmyMcGee - You're right on track with your point about the "best" IM discussion. It's my position that this can be done with ROMs (and should be done; read on).
msd24200 (taking these out of order) - you too are correct that some don't want to learn. But, you've got to remember the concept of "rational ignorance". I use my HTC for work, I need it working like I want it as soon as reasonably possible. I simply don't have time to flash several ROMs, or even spend hours on end Google searching through tons of posts. Just finding xda-developers forum in the first place was a big relief and shortcut for me for tuning up my device. While I'm just as interested in development for the HTC devices as everyone else is, I'm also interested in more things than I could learn about if I took the time for them all. Sometimes I just need the answer and we can all agree that HTC and Microsoft don't provide enough answers (or else this forum would not exist, according to the statement about why this forum was created). Which brings me to...
denco7 - You've hit the nail on the head with your "which country is best" analogy, although you might not have intended to. Let's say I respond to that inquiry and say, "I'd like a country where there is no war, no military, I'm a big banking enthusiast, I like clocks and watches, I like a predominantly cooler climate, am fond of mountains, and find Nordic-type women attractive [as long as I'm being stereotypical I might as well go all out! Please excuse any offense I may cause!]." Your response would then be, "Gee, they've got this Country called Sweden that's a lot like what you've described. You should start there first."
I think there is a section on here for "ROM requests". I couldn't find it, in a brief search, to post a link to it on here (which may suggest this type thread isn't common enough). All posts asking "which ROM is best" should be redirected [presumably by a moderator] to that "mod request" thread/forum/section so that the user can provide more details and then closed and/or deleted. If the area to post requests for recommendations such as this is visible enough (e.g. - I had no problem finding the HTC Raphael area, but I can't seem to locate suggest-a-ROM) then it will end much of the "which ROM is best" posts.
Lastly, there was a forum on www.tweakguides.com (it's still there, but it's closed). The site owner/webmaster, Koroush Ghazi, had a larger-scale issue with noobs who don't do research and post needlessly. It's better explained on the site itself. I have long been a fan of that site and greatly respect Koroush's work and his decision, and reference his site as an excellent resource in general. But as his post points out, there will always be a trade-off between supplying valuable information and objective critique and people who would rather waste time. It's all in how you choose to go about solving that problem once it becomes one (and I don't say that to be critical of what Koroush accomplished with his site or his decision to shut down the forums).
The point to all this; make an easily and quickly identifiable section (as easy as selecting what model of phone you have - with the pictures, or even a dedicated area) for requesting the best ROM FOR X, Y and Z. When I browse through the ROMs section, I just see the various code-names for the ROMs and posts that they are updated. I still don't know what they do. I don't have enough hours in the day to flash a few, or even to really get familiar with this forum. But I'd still like to learn, and the regulars on here are familiar with the forum structure. Just point those seeking the "best ROM" to the area where they can request a ROM that matches their needs without having to research, try, and try again every potential ROM out there. You've got to admit, even for someone involved in technology, learning about WM OS and HTC phones has a learning curve.
That's it, my $0.02 as it goes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good summary, but I would recomment Switzerland instead of Sweden
Dave

mikechannon said:
WTF. Jeeeeesh.... where do you guys get off..... Switzerland, Sweden.... pahhhh! I say. It's obvious to those WHO BOTHER TO RESEARCH and do A BIT OF READING that Norway is the ONLY option here that is worth the attention of anyone with a brain cell count exceeding a single digit.
Mike
PS
Yes of course if a poster asks for suggested ROMs and in doing so gives a very detailed list of requirements, then the thread would not be closed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've changed my mind and retract Switzerland.
Norway? What are you on Mike
It has to be Malta. (This could go on all week, so I'll stop)
Dave

ok while i got some mods on here and im thinking about it. i have to old compaq proliant servers that i am willing to donate if they can be used. is this something that xda-developers might want? if so pm me and let me know!!!

Agree with Mods
I completely agree with the Mods (also I use very low end devices, with not a lot of cookers)!
Because we all have our preferences when thinking which ROM is better, I may be ready to sacrifice anything for say speed or asthetics, but there may be pple (a lot of them) who want a mix of two. So what is best for me may not be best for you. And also there is no Sysoft Sandra like software in the mobile arena (sktools comes close) which can judge the actual performance of ROMs. Plus their tests are not what real life situation based. They are doing one thing at a time, while in real life, you are listening to a song or watching a video or surfing and a call or sms comes. So personally I prefer no comparisions. Come on the chefs burn a lot of mid night oil to cook this ROMs (and most of the users, including me don't donate a penny!), so what we can atleast do is give two hours of our 'valuable' time to check out their ROMs by ourselves. And we are so busy, then keep the original ROM and don't consider upgrading .
But its just my opinion nothing personal. I have tested nearly all ROMs in the Vox forum and Gene forum (for new Genes), and I am not a student , a working professional.

msd24200 said:
ok while i got some mods on here and im thinking about it. i have to old compaq proliant servers that i am willing to donate if they can be used. is this something that xda-developers might want? if so pm me and let me know!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have relayed your Offer, as i'm not in any position to judge or say anything about it.
Thanks.

ok i hope i dont get banned
1st i agree with the mods ....asking questions that wont get "logical" answers will get you flammed even by jrs like me. BUT i will take adavntage of this situation. we have alot of mods all on 1 thread "that hasnt been close" soooo whoever has a kaiser can you advise me on a stable fast lite "preferably" rom that DOESNT freeze up when texting "its already getting warm!!!" i have tried many roms and cabs with no success ive even put on an aprion :used a kitchen tool" but still nothing. I EVEN GOT A REPLY FROM DUTTY HIMSELF "ull never guess how many pms he gets" so instead of walking around blind openning new threads ima be a smart kid and ask the smarter ppl! always works for me.

Making competition between chefs is good thing i think...With doing that, we'll get the bests rom (speed, stability, features, etc...). Those thread should not be closed i think.
There are a lot of roms on this forum, do you think people will test all those to find which one is the best ? I think they're lazy to do that if they know that somebody tested many roms and could give his advice, they also ain't time for that.
This is my opinion and Sorry for my bad (oh how bad !) english

Changes to rules, practices and standards while on XDA?

Have there been some rule, practices or standards changes to how members should be interacting on the forums of XDA?
More now than ever I see an increase in moved threads, derogatory comments from older members and a lack of consistency in regulating and allowing questions, answers and comments to be made on the forums. Is this a fabrication of my own mind or has there been an increase that other have noted?
If there have been changes and if there has been an increase in complaint about usage of the forums, conduct, etc, than why have members not received an updated TOS or an email indicating what the changes are? Why are pinned, stickied threads not universally posted across forums so all members see them regardless of what sub-forum they are in?
In other words, why for 4 years does the forum seem polite, friendly and awesome but today I fear to press SUBMIT on anything?
Is the community being stiffled because there are so many new HTC users and they are newbs and taking advantage of the positive community that XDA is?
Anyway I hope that XDA is not seeing an influx of stupidity in it's user community and thus causing pain to the real heroes on this forum. Some of us have politely used this forum as a resource and LIFE SAFER for our devices and we definately don't want things to change.
Thanks for any input to help me ease back into posting and having dialogs with the rom devs and cooks.

On my personal opinion, I´m not a Mod or Dev, I´m just a simple member
Of course XDA-DEVS has been changing and adapting
Is not the same to have a site with 30 members with more personal and friendly contact between them than to have a site with hundreds of users...
personal friendly contact of course is lost in certain way, I don´t mean that XDA is not friendly anymore, but rules must change and adapt to the big site that has become now
Of course more rules have to apply.
Also imagine you are a Mod and you find that in a year you answered the same question like 1000 times!, of course you´ll be more sensitive when someone ask the same again.
80% of the members here never READ the rules so they don´t care about them, they just want to be attended and answered by their personal needs
In a few words only a few people really respect this site.
Just my personal point of view, not intend to offend anyone
Cheers,

There have been a lot of threads being moved to help with the organization. Mainly with the floods of anonymous questions in the wrong areas.

One major problem seems to be the people who never think to read the wiki, seems that 90% of the 'help' posts could have been answered by looking at the wiki.
(I'm definitely a wiki fan as it helped me to learn to flash my phone correctly).
I imagine the problem is that now these phones are more accessible to a wider public, people turn up without any real idea of how things function in here (and indeed in many forums of all sorts).
I've only been here a short while & at first (after learning how to modify my device) did try to answer a few questions with links to the wiki, but after a few days I've become lazy when I see those 'help ! my phone is bricked !' type threads. Which is actually pretty crap on my part as I'm a noob who learnt by looking (& has still much to learn & look through) & I should make an effort to help out other noobs & relieve a bit of the pressure off the older members & mods.
Maybe an idea would be that someone (or some people) could make a small section of noob help to be added to the first mail a member receives when signing up. It could contain links to the wikis & the general hints upon searching before asking obvious questions.

That´s the main problem
Nobody READS, so if more threads pointing to the Wiki are created is going to be the same, noobs will not READ, because as I´ve said before only a few members really care for this site, the mayority only cares for it´s own device problems, want to be answered and in the best case you get a thank you...

Thresher said:
Have there been some rule, practices or standards changes to how members should be interacting on the forums of XDA?
More now than ever I see an increase in moved threads, derogatory comments from older members and a lack of consistency in regulating and allowing questions, answers and comments to be made on the forums. Is this a fabrication of my own mind or has there been an increase that other have noted?
If there have been changes and if there has been an increase in complaint about usage of the forums, conduct, etc, than why have members not received an updated TOS or an email indicating what the changes are? Why are pinned, stickied threads not universally posted across forums so all members see them regardless of what sub-forum they are in?
In other words, why for 4 years does the forum seem polite, friendly and awesome but today I fear to press SUBMIT on anything?
Is the community being stiffled because there are so many new HTC users and they are newbs and taking advantage of the positive community that XDA is?
Anyway I hope that XDA is not seeing an influx of stupidity in it's user community and thus causing pain to the real heroes on this forum. Some of us have politely used this forum as a resource and LIFE SAFER for our devices and we definately don't want things to change.
Thanks for any input to help me ease back into posting and having dialogs with the rom devs and cooks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please See:
TheChampJT said:
There have been a lot of threads being moved to help with the organization. Mainly with the floods of anonymous questions in the wrong areas.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
aE3-ink said:
One major problem seems to be the people who never think to read the wiki, seems that 90% of the 'help' posts could have been answered by looking at the wiki.
(I'm definitely a wiki fan as it helped me to learn to flash my phone correctly).
I imagine the problem is that now these phones are more accessible to a wider public, people turn up without any real idea of how things function in here (and indeed in many forums of all sorts).
I've only been here a short while & at first (after learning how to modify my device) did try to answer a few questions with links to the wiki, but after a few days I've become lazy when I see those 'help ! my phone is bricked !' type threads. Which is actually pretty crap on my part as I'm a noob who learnt by looking (& has still much to learn & look through) & I should make an effort to help out other noobs & relieve a bit of the pressure off the older members & mods.
Maybe an idea would be that someone (or some people) could make a small section of noob help to be added to the first mail a member receives when signing up. It could contain links to the wikis & the general hints upon searching before asking obvious questions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
orb3000 said:
That´s the main problem
Nobody READS, so if more threads pointing to the Wiki are created is going to be the same, noobs will not READ, because as I´ve said before only a few members really care for this site, the mayority only cares for it´s own device problems, want to be answered and in the best case you get a thank you...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So yeah, there have been an influx of "stupid" newbs. people who take without regard for the informal structure that has existed for years.
There haven't been any Changed to the Rules. Just maybe MORE enforcement to respond to MORE infractions.

orb3000 said:
That´s the main problem
Nobody READS, so if more threads pointing to the Wiki are created is going to be the same, noobs will not READ, because as I´ve said before only a few members really care for this site, the mayority only cares for it´s own device problems, want to be answered and in the best case you get a thank you...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I meant was to not create new threads but answering the posts with the link to the wiki. I just did a few here :
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=481763
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=481739
Mainly trying to make them go to the wiki to find their answer.
I guess it's doing half the work for them but I can imagine that some people come along & aren't used to digging around & sometimes need a wee shove to help them along.
Of course some just don't care & I imagine you long timers & mods/admin get really tired of them, so us newer members should start to help out even if it is only in a small way.

orb3000 said:
Of course more rules have to apply.
Also imagine you are a Mod and you find that in a year you answered the same question like 1000 times!, of course you´ll be more sensitive when someone ask the same again.
80% of the members here never READ the rules so they don´t care about them, they just want to be attended and answered by their personal needs
In a few words only a few people really respect this site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point, well taken.

Thanks, for the input. I do appreciate it.

Actually, if you read the guidelines Peter P wrote all them years ago they still apply.
For example:
1. Check if something hasn't been asked before - a lot of the mod activity is enforcing this, removing / closing redundant questions that already have answers. The other day I closed a thread with the answer of the wiki home page, nothing more (I was feeling mean ), and 10 minutes later I saw the user download the software they asked for - they must have found the software by searching and reading the wiki .
Just my 2p's worth,
Dave

@Thresher
I guess JimmyMcgee is a bit harsh (stupid newbs), but has a good point anyways. I have been a member of this since July 2005 and this place has not changed a bit. Every single value and rule is the same as when I joined. The structure that this site has, has worked for many years, making this a haven for people that either want to learn or simply need help. It is not the site's rules and regulations that have changed, but the quality of people joining the site...
Over the past year, I have seen virtually every single one of the main and most common sense rules being broken. Point and case, do you know how many threads in Chinese, German, French, Italian (I have yet to see one in Spanish but I have seen a few posts with a lot of cursing in Spanish ) and an endless number of other languages have been started over the last year?? This is an English speaking forum and if I am not mistaken, one of the rules is "please post in English so others can understand"... one would think thats common sense. Of course, you will have the good ol' fashioned person (to avoid name calling) that will rant about how they don't speak English and that it is very unfair how they cannot ask questions (or read the comments) because of that... To that I say, "Google is a wonderful thing, you know? You can do things such as writing your stuff and then using the translate function to turn your question into something that some people might actually be able to understand." Believe me, my first language is Spanish and I would like nothing more than to make less effort into writing, but hey it's not a matter of what I like and what is more convenient... it's common sense.
Now, I read your original thread in the Q&A question where you complained that you posted something in the Raphael forums and got moved somewhere else. That thread where you placed your post clearly stated that no posts/replies were supposed to be made. So, the mods decided to move it where they saw fit to belong. That is what the mods are here for, to turn this utterly, disorganized, never ending chaos that we call a forum and make it enjoyable for them as well as for other members. And they do a great job at that!
Long story short, (again quoting JimmyMcgee)
"There haven't been any Changed to the Rules. Just maybe MORE enforcement to respond to MORE infraction."
Thanks for understanding.

The longer one is on the site, the more one answers the same questions over and over the less nice you are going to be about it.
Loads and loads of people have google search XDA link in there sig, and 90% of questions have been answered at least once before, sometimes even on the same page.
People are lazy, and want it handed to them on a plate, its sad.

The world is constantly developing and changing, the internet reaches more places in the world than ever. With satallites, virtually the whole earth is covered by some sort of cell service ( well except my downstairs office where I can never get a signal ). With the advent of global email and texts, more people than ever have cell phones, and the number of PDA's grow every month.
What used to be a small forum of enthusiats trying out and sharing hacks, to try to make their phones better, has turned into one of , if not the best source of information on the net for Windows Mobile phones. I have not been to a windows mobile , HTC or carrier forum on the net that doesn't reference XDA to people with " unanswerable " questions.
With this designation of " the authority " comes the influx of human nature. "The I want it and I want it now's." The people who think that this is HTC's tech support. The people who don't really care about their phones and don't want to, but just have one question and cannot see why you cannot just anwer it and let them get on with their lives, etc...etc.... Go to any other enthusiast site and see how ignorant ( ie: unknowledgeable ) people get treated, not much differently. " I know that this is a high performance engine forum, where people trade ideas on how to increase the horse power of high performance cars, but can someone tell me where the dipstick is on my 1999 mini van ?"
Too bad there wasn't a way to route every noob or web redirect through a home page that includes the " what XDA is " and the posting rules page, before they can navigate to the site itself. Maybe for at least their first 10 posts or more. The fustrations with redundant questions, ungrateful noobs, people that think this is tech support are endemic of any forum. But I really think that ti is not a problem here, as much as I have seen on other sites. And if someone wants to remedy it, I think the remedy has to work friom the noobs up and not from the seniors down.

Google is a wonderful thing but as Google admits to: human nature, vocabulary, language and grammar make search engine results wildly different for each user. Google also has issues with short words and abbreviations which are used a lot throughout XDA.
The WIKI is great.
I guess other forums I use have a feature to show you similar questions based on the language you used before you finish your post. I wonder if this forum has that ability. I think it comes as part of the vBulletin package but it takes a toll on the server due to DB hits.

How to make xda forums more productive

I have been a member since March 2011 sometime - can't remember the exact date. I bought an Optimus P500 to replace my ageing Palm Treo 680. As soon as I started using the phone I was sucked into the who gamut of ROMs and improving the performance of the stock OS. Obviously, it was through the Development Forums. I am likely one of the older members using these forums - 65 years. I have now been going through the forums for things of my interest for over 2 months on a daily basis. Some of the practices and behaviour in the development forums are causes for concern as they reduce the productivity of the people who work on the developments. I am listing some and hope that the administrators of XDA will take some steps which can help in rectifying the situation.
1. People are unwilling to spend even 2 mins to search for what has been answered a hundred times - exaggeration perhaps but definitely tens of times.
2. People are unwilling, or to be less charitable unable, to read anything carefully and are just rushing to implement something new.
3. They will ask a question even when the answer is in plain words ad nauseum.
4. They will try things which are dangerous without learning enough and then flood the forums in several threads about how they have run into a problem and can someone help them. I have run into some problems but have been able to search the forums for solutions and it did not take more than 10-15 mins of time. In the bargain I learnt a lot more.
5. People are writing merely to express their satisfaction at something happening or about to happen or to praise a developer. There is a system of expressing your thanks/satisfaction. Why not use that instead of saying two words which add nothing to the development forum?
6. It is easy to identify those who are at fault and are reducing the effectiveness of the people on the development forums. Why not have a series of measures setup to gradually weed them out and let them vent their sentiments on the General Section?
7. The criteria of having someone post 10 times to the General or Q & A sections getting eligible to post in the Development Forums needs review. In one of the forums on automobiles which I use they are much more strict in enforcing posting etiquette and in weeding out totally useless members who are only looking to see their own comments on the web. I am sure we are ingenious enough to work out a more effective criteria/system.
I am not against contribution to development forums but i am against wasting time and space by writing 'Aha what fun we are going to get an update tomorrow'!

Cliff notes?

have ppl interested in the topics posted read the threads - at least the highlights. In fact the answer to the question how the forum usage and user experience could be improved might be an option that allows readers to look at a summary of the thread first showing the most helpful / informative responses... of course someone by some means needs to select the topics which will be added to the summaries.

On certain threads questions are repeated cause there are over 1000 pages of responses so i'd much rather repeat a question than spend countless hours looking through pages

I agree that people need to do some research instead of asking questions that have been answered a bunch of times before.
I'm not on the same page when it comes to people posting gratitude or excitement. Yes there is a thanks button, but sometimes you want to go the extra mile and tell them how you feel. After all, this is a community. We aren't robots and humans like to interact with each other. It's easy to skim past these types of post because it's always obvious what they are about. It also adds more posts to the threads and moves them to the top and there is nothing wrong with that.
I like the thanks button as well, because it will be obvious to people who see your name that you are helpful and someone that will probably help them with questions they might have and not be a total **** if they get a PM.

omjhd said:
On certain threads questions are repeated cause there are over 1000 pages of responses so i'd much rather repeat a question than spend countless hours looking through pages
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I agree completely. 1000, hey even 100 pages in a thread can be daunting! That's why there is a search tool (and a very good one at that).
Example: I just installed a new ROM on my Incredible S. The thread for the ROM contains 50 pages. In real life, I'd sit there and read it. That's just me. Put aside half an hour, get to know the issues people are having, the issues that have been covered, and what's still in progress. Your chances of running into issues during the install are quite often significantly lessened by reading the whole thread through. There are also some awesome hidden gems in amongst some of the posts which are worth looking for (extra themes, battery indicators, patched programs and launchers, etc.)
I understand that not everyone has the time to read an entire thread, and that's quite okay. But if you have enough time to look for a new ROM, check some screenshots, download it, install it, then run into issues and post a quesion - you have enough time to search a thread. All you have to do is hit the 'search thread' button, give the tool a couple of keywords ('launcher force close', 'bluetooth headset no sound' etc.) and see what it throws back. If it throws you an answer, all well and good. If it doesn't try a few more keywords, then post your question. At least you've done your research!
In the end, what you do is up to you. Know, however, that you stand a much better chance of getting the answer you are looking for (not just a rude single sentence - an actual answer that will help you) if you put in a little bit of effort before you ask the question.

Welcome to the largest smartphone development forum on the internet
Try being a moderator! Trust me, some of those things you listed are something we have tried to reduce for a long time, but when you have a forum with almost 4 million members, keeping everyone under control is not something we can always do 100%.
Feel free to make any suggestions as to how things can be improved. We are always welcome to hear ideas.
omjhd said:
On certain threads questions are repeated cause there are over 1000 pages of responses so i'd much rather repeat a question than spend countless hours looking through pages
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That's why we have a "search" function.

the_scotsman said:
Welcome to the largest smartphone development forum on the internet
Try being a moderator! Trust me, some of those things you listed are something we have tried to reduce for a long time, but when you have a forum with almost 4 million members, keeping everyone under control is not something we can always do 100%.
Feel free to make any suggestions as to how things can be improved. We are always welcome to hear ideas.
That's why we have a "search" function.
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Amen.
/10char

[DISCUSSION] XDA vs other Android forums

FIRST OF ALL, THIS THREAD IS IN NO WAY INTENDED TO BE NEGATIVE TOWARDS XDA!
When I get interested in something and look for a forum on the subject, I look for the BEST forum on the subject. When I became interested in Android phones and looked for a forum, in became obvious to me VERY quickly that XDA was THE superior forum by far; but what 'superior' means is, I think, what I would like this discussion to be about...
It was quickly obvious to me that XDA was the forum where the developers were. This, in itself, made XDA the superior forum, obviously it seemed to me. Having access to developers is certainly a priceless ability to have. Also, AFIK, new developments tend to get posted on XDA before other Android forums (though, I must admit, while I am familiar with some other Android forums, I very rarely visit them, other that by occasional Google search results, and even then, I try to seek out XDA results).
I would certainly NOT say this is the best Android forum for new users who are unwilling to search or use their brain, however new users, even if N00b's, will do fine if they respect the standard protocols.
HOWEVER... I have recently begun to wonder... is this the best Android forum to get help with your questions? If you want to question a dev on XDA about one of his/her apps, then probably yes, but what about more GENERAL questions? Is XDA really more oriented towards higher issues, such as app development?
I personally enjoy helping people with their questions, but I have found difficulty with getting responses to my questions sometimes. I feel certain that there are users on XDA that would KNOW the answer to my question, but of course, I am well aware they have better things to do with their time than answer my questions (which means no disrespect) which the likely never even see.
As I say, I have visited the other Android forums very little. I am wondering if those forums are a better place for these general types of questions? So, I welcome a discussion on anyone's opinion on other Android forums vs XDA...

I moved this here. It is probably a better place for this type of discussion

mark manning said:
I moved this here. It is probably a better place for this type of discussion
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I agree, thanks, but I don't want to create any friction between mods (see my PM).

I will not bite you, however you respond!
Well Mark, I thought it was a very valid and interesting topic for discussion, and since you moved it here I think you agreed with me, but unfortunately, we seem to be the only two people who feel that way?
Are there users here who feel that there are OTHER users here who would be better served on OTHER Android forums? I am in no way attempting to reduce the XDA user base, but as I said, I think this is obviously the ELITE forum (which DOES NOT necessarily mean exclusionary), but to my mind at least, many users here who likely have their minds on higher things than answering relatively simple questions, which might be more welcome on OTHER Android forums. OR... I could be wrong... as I mentioned, I have spent little time on other Android forums, but I have noticed that certain Google searches I make return top results from forums OTHER than XDA (though GENERALLY I find XDA gets the top results).
SO... anyone care to express any opinions on this, pro or con? Now is your change to make your opinion known.
(OH... and if rating my own thread 5 stars is bad form... tough titty said the kitty...)

rsngfrce said:
Well Mark, I thought it was a very valid and interesting topic for discussion, and since you moved it here I think you agreed with me, but unfortunately, we seem to be the only two people who feel that way?
Are there users here who feel that there are OTHER users here who would be better served on OTHER Android forums? I am in no way attempting to reduce the XDA user base, but as I said, I think this is obviously the ELITE forum (which DOES NOT necessarily mean exclusionary), but to my mind at least, many users here who likely have their minds on higher things than answering relatively simple questions, which might be more welcome on OTHER Android forums. OR... I could be wrong... as I mentioned, I have spent little time on other Android forums, but I have noticed that certain Google searches I make return top results from forums OTHER than XDA (though GENERALLY I find XDA gets the top results).
SO... anyone care to express any opinions on this, pro or con? Now is your change to make your opinion known.
(OH... and if rating my own thread 5 stars is bad form... tough titty said the kitty...)
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Well I'm new here myself and I've found it's relatively easy to find information here. The forums seems pretty active. It's a lot better than Bitcointalk that's for sure.. I haven't seen a bigger cesspool of trolls of fud anywhere on the new lol

As I've been here for about 3 and a half years (roughly a year as just a visitor) and am a staff member here, I'm clearly leaning more towards XDA being the best Android forum.
Before I found my way to XDA, I had signed up to a fair few other Android forums (being a mixture of general Android and some more development focused) and for some reason I just didn't stick around. Some of the forums were simply a mess but others weren't too bad. Most of the time, I didn't become active on those forums purely because it didn't feel right, I guess.
In regards to general questions, there's definitely a place for them here. Obviously we are more focused on development than general Android questions but we'll still support those anyway.
If you look through any of the device forums you'll notice that the majority of questions are normally about rooting/unlocking the boot loader of that particular device but there are still a lot of standard questions being asked as well.
With you not getting answers to your questions, it's more likely due to not being in an active enough forum or not being seen by the right people rather than people not answering purely because it's not as technical as other questions might be.

KidCarter93 said:
As I've been here for about 3 and a half years (roughly a year as just a visitor) and am a staff member here, I'm clearly leaning more towards XDA being the best Android forum.
Before I found my way to XDA, I had signed up to a fair few other Android forums (being a mixture of general Android and some more development focused) and for some reason I just didn't stick around. Some of the forums were simply a mess but others weren't too bad. Most of the time, I didn't become active on those forums purely because it didn't feel right, I guess.
In regards to general questions, there's definitely a place for them here. Obviously we are more focused on development than general Android questions but we'll still support those anyway.
If you look through any of the device forums you'll notice that the majority of questions are normally about rooting/unlocking the boot loader of that particular device but there are still a lot of standard questions being asked as well.
With you not getting answers to your questions, it's more likely due to not being in an active enough forum or not being seen by the right people rather than people not answering purely because it's not as technical as other questions might be.
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As I said from the beginning, it was obvious to me very quickly that XDA was far and away the BEST Android forum. That is why I chose it and though I did register on one or two other forums, I have rarely ever visited them (other than, as I mentioned, through Google searches).
For best discussion purposes, I don't think we should focus on my specific issues with getting questions answered (even though they did somewhat provoke this thread). I have a Sprint Galaxy S4, not an unpopular phone or inactive forum, and I feel I am able to express my issues relatively well. However, I finally left that forum with my question, having gotten nowhere (though my issue is VERY unusual) and went to the general Galaxy S4 forum, and received the best help I have received from a user from outside the USA who was totally unfamiliar with Sprint system software, but made general recommendations that I found greatly helpful. However, I am just one person and I digress somewhat...
I would think it would be fair to say that XDA is NOT the best Android forum for users who want to be spoon-fed (unless, perhaps, they limit themselves to N00B friendly threads)... I am personally not as annoyed by these types of people as many are, but I certainly see many here who are (how often do you see, "read the OP")... I was recently following a thread where a new user kept being referred to the OP, even though clearly it WAS NOT answering his question (which was outside of my personal knowledge, though I did try). Perhaps there are better Android forums for these types of people (not referring to the person in the last example) than XDA?
OR... maybe just send them to one of zepplinrox' threads :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32472429&postcount=15372
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=32475760&postcount=15374

All forums are good since they are all providing free tutorials which help the users .
The only advantage xda has is that the OWNERS do their best to keep the forum up , thing which require a good paid server and monthly payments .. other forum owners simply do not afford paying for the fees each month from the simple reason that once the visitors are getting big in numbers the forum server also do require some server updates . So thanks XDA owners for keeping this forum up !!

alin razvan said:
...The only advantage xda has is that the OWNERS do their best to keep the forum up...
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WOW... you're leaving yourself a little wide open with that comment I think...
(No offense intended...)

People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".

the_scotsman said:
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
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Now that's the kind of strong opinion I was looking for! :good: (Whether we choose to agree or disagree...)

the_scotsman said:
People seem to forget XDA is not a support forum. It never has been.
As the motto says: "For Developers, By Developers".
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Actually, that was exactly the response I wanted to hear when I started this thread (and from a MOD too!). It is not for me to say whether that is right or wrong (or for anyone else to say, IMO), everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is why I started this thread. But I guess I am interested in what percentage of users here feel that way? I am SURE it is a larger percentage than at other Android forums. However, that may be made somewhat irrelevant by this forum having (I AM ASSUMING) a larger user base than the other Android forums, so when that percentage is removed, there are still more users here interested in supporting others. And, of course, I am not saying this is or is not a support forum. Opinions are what I want! :good:
(TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION for the_scotsman, haggis muncher from Australia: I go to the Scottish Highland Gathering & Games in Pleasanton California every year and I am mystified as to how the didgeridoo seems to have become a Scottish instrument... know anything about this?)

rsngfrce said:
(TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION for the_scotsman, haggis muncher from Australia: I go to the Scottish Highland Gathering & Games in Pleasanton California every year and I am mystified as to how the didgeridoo seems to have become a Scottish instrument... know anything about this?)
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hah! I have no idea to be honest! Seems to be a sort of link between Scottish bands using didgeridoos for some reason...perhaps because they sound good played together with bagpipes :good: