Hello guys, yesterday I noticed an huge battery drain on my RN8.
The phone is new (received it on 18 December). I state that when I use it I always have 4G on (because right now I'm without wifi connection at home, damn my ISP) but of course sometimes when I don't use the phone I turn it off. I stay with GPS off, Google Assistant off, and still I notice a battery loss of around 3% every 45 mins, even when the phone is in standby, every 10-15 mins when in use (too much!)
And, as I use WhatsApp, I recently noticed that it is lirerally eating my battery, you'll see on screenshots.
For the charge, I always try to keep the phone from 30/40% to 80%.
What can I do? Are there some settings to improve? Maybe a way to manage apps working in background? I don't always want to stay on Energy Saving mode, or is it the only way?
oh that is a huge amount of battery drain, the Facebook app used to do that some years ago, and the advised solution in whatsapp make a backup of you data first, then go in to; settings, apps, and clear cache and data for the app. could also try reinstalling the app.
as you dont have a internet connection at home but you still have wifi, you phone/whatsapp might be trying to make backup but it can't cause of no internet. try change the settings in whatsapp to back over cellular aswell.
Slender_ said:
Hello guys, yesterday I noticed an huge battery drain on my RN8.
The phone is new (received it on 18 December). I state that when I use it I always have 4G on (because right now I'm without wifi connection at home, damn my ISP) but of course sometimes when I don't use the phone I turn it off. I stay with GPS off, Google Assistant off, and still I notice a battery loss of around 3% every 45 mins, even when the phone is in standby, every 10-15 mins when in use (too much!)
And, as I use WhatsApp, I recently noticed that it is lirerally eating my battery, you'll see on screenshots.
For the charge, I always try to keep the phone from 30/40% to 80%.
What can I do? Are there some settings to improve? Maybe a way to manage apps working in background? I don't always want to stay on Energy Saving mode, or is it the only way?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
scorpion_rgp said:
oh that is a huge amount of battery drain, the Facebook app used to do that some years ago, and the advised solution in whatsapp make a backup of you data first, then go in to; settings, apps, and clear cache and data for the app. could also try reinstalling the app.
as you dont have a internet connection at home but you still have wifi, you phone/whatsapp might be trying to make backup but it can't cause of no internet. try change the settings in whatsapp to back over cellular aswell.
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Click to collapse
Hello buddy and thanks for the reply.
I haven't noticed any backup settings on: however I followed your tip and tried to reinstall WhatsApp, seems that now consumes are normal. I also tried to go on Settings -> Battery and performance -> Power save app -> selected WhatsApp and selected "limit activity in background" so maybe this is also doing its work. I know that I won't receive notifications if phone stays idle for a bit but its no problem as the first thing I do is to check WhatsApp when I get phone in hands.
Now on stats, screen is again at 1st position (as it should be I guess) with 35,66% power draining;
2nd is WhatsApp. (13,57%)
However there is still a bit of battery drain caused from something else. When I go to sleep I always turn phone off. This night it was at 43% of charge. When I turned it on it was still at 43%, but went down to 39% in less than 5 minutes even if not in use (used for, maybe 30 secs? Just checked WhatsApp).
I don't know what's going on.
idk why but this started happening on 11.0.3, before this it wasnt draining as much, but ya I noticed this very recently, it went up to 40% batt drain for me too, I reinstalled it and used the battery saving thing on it and my battery drain's fine now, I don't see WhatsApp in my battery usage menu, but sometimes I miss push notifications so that kinda sucks :/
hope WhatsApp and/or xiaomi fixes it, or if LOS or pixel experience gets stable enough I'll flash it, hope the battery drain's fine on those roms
I am also having huge battery drain in standby , around 2 -3 % per 1 hour.
Tried unistalling all social apps but the drain persists, also phone is not going to deep sleep. Now im trying PE rom and standby drain is down to around 1.6% per hour which is too much for this chipset (k20 pro in standby with same apps is around 0.5% per hour)
Related
Why in the world is my battery dropping so fast? and why is cell standby taking most of my battery like My phone went from 55-50 within 10 mins of just sitting there. Can anyone help shed light on this?
^^^^BUMP^^^^^
Try going into Settings -> About Phone -> Battery -> Battery use
It'll show you a breakdown of what was draining the battery.
I have the same problem, I have tried different roms, kernels, wiping batt stats, calibrating the batt...nothing. The only idea I have left is to get a new battery. Its frustrating because I feel like it wasn't wasn't bad before I tried flashing cm6.
I remember digging into this issue on another phone with cm6. If I remember right the phone.apk or dialer.apk (I believe it was this one) was keeping the phone in a partial wakelock. That in turn, ate the hell out of our batteries - not everyone had the issue though so we figured it was just a matter of how different HW/SW revisions handled the ROM and/or kernels. Basically we knew what caused it but not why it was happening.
As for the cell standby all that means it that out of the entire time your phone has been booted, cell standby it the most active. If it's at 70% that doesn't mean it used 70% of your battery - just 70% of the total active time.
moonmanxo said:
Why in the world is my battery dropping so fast? and why is cell standby taking most of my battery like My phone went from 55-50 within 10 mins of just sitting there. Can anyone help shed light on this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine had that issue because it kept going 3G > E > 3G > E. Soon as I turned 3G off when I wasn't needing to use it that helped a lot.
3G and wifi consumes battery a lot
Make sure your phone isn't constantly syncing, make sure that it's only syncing at certain intervals.
Also, download JuiceDefender because this app will customize your options so that when your screen is off, your data will be turned off and will only be reactivated when you unlock your screen (plus the certain intervals that it will turn on to do some email and other syncing)
and also make sure you have this option disabled "Flip the phone to make it silent" , from what i have read they said it will always keep the phone partial awake and yes like others said make sure your sync intervals aren't too short like checking for every 1 or 2mts for changes/updates
Hey guys ive done a similar thread on this a while back but this is a bit different now the issue here is when my phone from 100% all the way to 90 % battery is awesome like so damn good. but when it hits 89% it starts draining quite quick the main drainage is when i put the phone in sleep mode it drains. like i had my phone at 85 % left it for exactly 5 minutes and it dropped to 84%. Ive tried every rom/ kernel out there..nothing has helped or changed. I took it to the warranty they said its a software problem and that didnt fix anything. i have BBS and Kernel wakelock since boot is "wlan_rx_wake" maxing out at 2.6 % the others are just power manager service , etc. Partial wakelock since boot is AudioOut_2 stricking at a 17.8% max. And all the others are NetworkLocationLocator. Currently on Pheonix Rom (Debloated ALOT!!,awesome rom) and Note2core since Pearseus gave me lag issues.
Most battery issues are caused by:
1. antenna transmitting
2. screen time
3. processor load
Troubleshooting should start from the simplest things (Before you replace a motherboard/power-supply, make sure the computer is plugged into the socket, etc). Look at apps that use the network (Google Now, Google Local, Google Maps, Google Mail, Google Calendar, Google Contacts, Google Photos, Picasa, Instant Upload, Exchange ActiveSync, Samsung Backup, Weather Widget, Weather & News and whatever app you decide to install, ie: Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Viber, Skype, WhatsApp, etc) and make sure you disable or at least change the app's setting to update less frequently.
Make sure you use automatic brightness and feel free to lower the bar around 50% when full screen brightness is not really required.
Make sure you don't have some app constantly running in the background (You can see this from the Battery menu, the phone shouldn't be 'Awake' most of the time when the screen is off).
I manage to get ~15-20 hours out of one charge, with 4-6 screen hours and all of the apps I mentioned above (with proper sync settings, of course).
Thats cool but i really wanna know why from 100 to 90 battery is awesome but then it start sucking up
Do I have wake locks problems? =(
no those look fine.
a wake lock issue will show around 90% of uptime as awake.
your looking around 11%.
The reason its ace from 100 to 90 percent is that to hit 100% you have to over volt a lithium based battery. this is why most chargers switch to trickle around 90%.
so it confuses the battery monitor as its in a way (as the battery level indicator uses voltage to indicate charge) more than 100%
the battery is a 3.8v battery, but between 90 and 100 percent it is at around 4.6v and dropping so until it hits below 3.8v (100%) it drops very slowly.
Now that i turned off Google Now and ticked off all 3 settings under GPS, I rarely lose a percentage when the screen is off. [I lose 1% overnight] With that said, I feel the total opposite. I feel like phone gets stronger as the percentage goes down. Try doing what I did and let us know what happens.
But why does mine drain so quick..people get like 20 minutes of on screen time per 1 % i get like 3 minutes if im lucky..
boodies said:
Now that i turned off Google Now and ticked off all 3 settings under GPS, I rarely lose a percentage when the screen is off. [I lose 1% overnight] With that said, I feel the total opposite. I feel like phone gets stronger as the percentage goes down. Try doing what I did and let us know what happens.
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Lost 10% overnight..,i keep most of my stuff really off but it still drains..
bluetooth off
nfc off
GPS off
My google now is on however i dont use it that much..does that really effect your battery ?
Yeah Aus, try turning Google Now off. I personally think it's extremely overated. It keeps track of your location so it will "try" to use gps even if it's turned off. I think just by the program waking the device"trying" to use the gps is wasting precious battery. Let me know how that goes.
ps - obviously I dont have bt and nfc on at all times because I have no use for them myself. but my wifi and 3 emails are constantly on and syncing 24/7
ps 2- I used to lose 10% overnight just like you but I had Google Now and all 3 GPS settings ticked on.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet:
It's a battery gauge. It doesn't actually show 100% of the time the correct %. It could be not calibrated correctly (shouldn't need to, either). I actually spend a lot of time from 100-80%. Then it drops rather quickly! I hardly ever spend any time below 60%, so I'm sure it's just my battery reporting what it THINKS is the correct battery life %.
Hey XDA friends. I got the Verizon HTC One a few weeks ago and battery life started out fantastic. When I put away to go to sleep it only lost 7% all night with GPS on and wifi on and all that and I was astonished. However as time went on I found those results kept getting worse and worse until I was draining 30% in a night. I went and uninstalled battery guru and now I only drain 12% a night. Some nights however I still lose 20% in a night with sleep mode on. How do I check what keeps waking my phone up and draining my battery. I'm afraid this will affect my phone's battery in the long run. I will start disabling GPS at night but I wish I still had that 7% in a night. How do I check what is messing with my phone???
nscian12 said:
Hey XDA friends. I got the Verizon HTC One a few weeks ago and battery life started out fantastic. When I put away to go to sleep it only lost 7% all night with GPS on and wifi on and all that and I was astonished. However as time went on I found those results kept getting worse and worse until I was draining 30% in a night. I went and uninstalled battery guru and now I only drain 12% a night. Some nights however I still lose 20% in a night with sleep mode on. How do I check what keeps waking my phone up and draining my battery. I'm afraid this will affect my phone's battery in the long run. I will start disabling GPS at night but I wish I still had that 7% in a night. How do I check what is messing with my phone???
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Click to collapse
go to settings/power/usage. this will tell you which app is using the most of you battery. also you should never have gps on while youre sleeping. you might also want to turn off auto-sync and then re-enable it after you wake up. you can create a widget to do just that. if you need help with that, just let me know.
Turn data Wi-Fi and gps off lol.... You are asleep
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using xda app-developers app
nscian12 said:
Hey XDA friends. I got the Verizon HTC One a few weeks ago and battery life started out fantastic. When I put away to go to sleep it only lost 7% all night with GPS on and wifi on and all that and I was astonished. However as time went on I found those results kept getting worse and worse until I was draining 30% in a night. I went and uninstalled battery guru and now I only drain 12% a night. Some nights however I still lose 20% in a night with sleep mode on. How do I check what keeps waking my phone up and draining my battery. I'm afraid this will affect my phone's battery in the long run. I will start disabling GPS at night but I wish I still had that 7% in a night. How do I check what is messing with my phone???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you use blinkfeed, that will kill your battery pretty fast. Even if you don't think you are using it, go check and see if it's syncing anything in the settings. I thought mine was turned off, but then I logged into facebook (turned sync off in facebook), later I found that blinkfeed was syncing it anyway w/out my knowledge.
dspcap said:
Do you use blinkfeed, that will kill your battery pretty fast. Even if you don't think you are using it, go check and see if it's syncing anything in the settings. I thought mine was turned off, but then I logged into facebook (turned sync off in facebook), later I found that blinkfeed was syncing it anyway w/out my knowledge.
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Click to collapse
you cant turn blinkfeed off...
.kronos. said:
you cant turn blinkfeed off...
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You can go into settings and make sure everything is unchecked. Mine had several checked by default and it was draining battery.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk 4
Update: Battery only drained 10% last night with GPS off, Blinkfeed never updates on its own and all social networks are checked off (I don't like my social networks on Blinkfeed) other than that though everything seems to be in check. If anyone else has anyway to improve that 10% let me know (by the way the 10% was drained during 9 hours of constant sleep I went from 77 to 67)
nscian12 said:
Update: Battery only drained 10% last night with GPS off, Blinkfeed never updates on its own and all social networks are checked off (I don't like my social networks on Blinkfeed) other than that though everything seems to be in check. If anyone else has anyway to improve that 10% let me know (by the way the 10% was drained during 9 hours of constant sleep I went from 77 to 67)
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Click to collapse
airplane mode...
Really, 1% per hour on standby with cellular radios on is pretty acceptable. Depending on signal strength, the radio could be pulling that just to maintain a connection to the tower.
Thanks everyone!
With GPS off, Sleep mode on, and NO BATTERY HELPER APPS (Battery guru was diminishing my battery life) I got a record breaking (for me) 4% loss in battery life during my 8 hour night's sleep, not bad if I do say so myself, after that my battery has been a lot better. I wish Verizon would give us HTC's battery saving software back but let's not ask too much of Verizon or they might give us timely updates.
nscian12 said:
With GPS off, Sleep mode on, and NO BATTERY HELPER APPS (Battery guru was diminishing my battery life) I got a record breaking (for me) 4% loss in battery life during my 8 hour night's sleep, not bad if I do say so myself, after that my battery has been a lot better. I wish Verizon would give us HTC's battery saving software back but let's not ask too much of Verizon or they might give us timely updates.
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Glad to hear this!!
those battery saving apps are so pointless IMHO, it's just another app and if coded incorrectly will do exactly what it did to you, destroy your battery that is working fine. very happy you can now enjoy your phone the way was designed to be!
andybones said:
Glad to hear this!!
those battery saving apps are so pointless IMHO, it's just another app and if coded incorrectly will do exactly what it did to you, destroy your battery that is working fine. very happy you can now enjoy your phone the way was designed to be!
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Thanks! unfortunately I don't root my phones but for now the One does what I need it to perfectly and seamlessly
nscian12 said:
Update: Battery only drained 10% last night with GPS off, Blinkfeed never updates on its own and all social networks are checked off (I don't like my social networks on Blinkfeed) other than that though everything seems to be in check. If anyone else has anyway to improve that 10% let me know (by the way the 10% was drained during 9 hours of constant sleep I went from 77 to 67)
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Hey..I had the same problem so...first download wakelock detector from play store..after installing jus use your phone like as usual..after 4 to 5 hrs or right before you charge your phone, open the wakelock app and check what's waking up your phone during sleep..for everyone it seems the battery is drained by Google services ..the main culprit being the location services.. so switch off the location services in settings..and also in Google maps, go into setting and then into Google location settings and make sure location reporting and location history are disabled, make sure they are unchecked.. that's it..restart the phone..fully charge it and test it out ..and DON'T use any battery saving apps ..and also uninstall wakelocker app after your battery life is back to normal..I'm an average user and I unplug around 9 in da morning and when I come home around 6, I still have 65% left..I don use facebook .. heard even facebook app is major battery drainer....you jus have to tweak and play with settings till you find your desired battery life expectancy cos everyone uses their phone differently..and we all have different apps so the main thing is to find out what's eating the phone battery most...I'm just pleased with my decision in picking HTC ONE over galaxy S4
similar problem here....google services is killing my battery (relatively). location is part of it, but google hangouts is also going crazy (watchdog alerts me to excessive usage....over 50%, but hangouts was at 100%)
i was spoiled on my g-nex, where i left wifi, bluetooth, and GPS on 24/7 and could easily go 24 hours. now i'm lucky to get 12 (with about 1 hour of screen on time).
I'm hoping things will sort out, device is only about a week old, but google optimized location usage (iirc) such that it isn't supposed to constantly ping and kill battery. we shall see, i guess.
I'm not sure what the problem could be but I'm just gonna say that yesterday I got around 18 hours of battery life with over 5 hours screen on time which I consider awesome battery life.
I'm stock, so it's definitely possible to get good battery life.
10 percent overnight? Thats not that great but not horrible. My dna is running carbon (android 4.3) I use tasker to turn off autosync and data/wifi and put it on silent at whatever set time I make it. My phone drains about 5 percent max overnight, usually a lot less.
anilpalepu said:
Hey..I had the same problem so...first download wakelock detector from play store..after installing jus use your phone like as usual..after 4 to 5 hrs or right before you charge your phone, open the wakelock app and check what's waking up your phone during sleep..for everyone it seems the battery is drained by Google services ..the main culprit being the location services.. so switch off the location services in settings..and also in Google maps, go into setting and then into Google location settings and make sure location reporting and location history are disabled, make sure they are unchecked.. that's it..restart the phone..fully charge it and test it out ..and DON'T use any battery saving apps ..and also uninstall wakelocker app after your battery life is back to normal..I'm an average user and I unplug around 9 in da morning and when I come home around 6, I still have 65% left..I don use facebook .. heard even facebook app is major battery drainer....you jus have to tweak and play with settings till you find your desired battery life expectancy cos everyone uses their phone differently..and we all have different apps so the main thing is to find out what's eating the phone battery most...I'm just pleased with my decision in picking HTC ONE over galaxy S4
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you can turn off updates in facebook and its not bad, but yeah if you have autoupdate on, it can kill the battery.
as far as the OP, I don't get why you don't charge you phone while you are sleeping. Seems like the perfect time.
Turning GPS off shouldn't affect your battery life. If you're not using your phone, the phone isn't going to use the GPS for anything. So it shouldn't be using your battery. The culprit is usually an app that is wakelocking your phone. So you need to find which app it is that constantly wakes your phone from deep sleep. Turning off autosync would help a bit if you are really paranoid. The big thing that hurts our battery when the screen is off, is the LTE radio, but most people are connected to WiFi when they sleep so it's not a big deal.
Just an FYI, turning off GPS has been ineffective since 2.2 Froyo. When Gingerbread 2.3 was released like 2+ years ago, it allowed for the GPS to only be used when an app called for it to be used. Otherwise GPS will not do anything unless you pull up an app that calls it to do something.
Up to now I'm happy with my Z1C.
But in the last weeks the battery drain went up.
Before that I could get a day and a half to two days of use , I am a moderate user during the day.
Most of the time wifi is off, 4g is off but bluetooth is on, day and night.
Before I had bluetooth turned off when not in the car.
But because I bought a Smartband talk I switched bluetooth to on without turning it off again.
Up to last week the battery was draining faster because of the bluetooth use but it was still good enough for me.
The last weeks / months I downloaded a lot more music on the external card and switched USB use to MSC so I could use it in my car. I listened to music in the car when driving to and from my workplace (1 hour drive single way).
Because it was charging in the morning and in the evening I did not notice any abnormal behavior.
Before I started to use the phone as a mediaplayer in the car I could get 1.5 to 2 days.
When using it as a mediaplayer this did not change, probably because of the charging in the car
Now I switched from workplace and stopped listening to music in the car.
Now my phone lasts for 0.8 up to 1 day max.
When looking at the battery stats it seems to me the mediaserver was eating up a lot.
So I deleted all data from the phone and I did a reset to factory settings. I also removed 80% of the music on the external sd card.
But even then I get a battery drain from 30-35% in about 7 hours time during the night.
I'm running again with only necessary apps installled.
So for the time being no xposed modules, no smartband talk and only switching bluetooth on when using the phone in the car.
But the problem does not seem to be solved.
I have a weak signal at home (1 bar), I had a weak signal at my previous workplace (1 bar) and I have a weak signal at my current workplace (als 1 bar max).
I wonder what is eating the battery so fast?
Is it the weak signal?
Is it because I charged the battery too much (every morning and evening in the car)?
Is my battery dying?
Is it related to an app (multiple apps)?
I have this phone since april 2014.
I am on 14.4.A.0.108 / unlocked / rooted with the doomkernel v22.
So can anybody tell me what monitoring app to use and how to interprete the results from such an app?
I'm in stamina mode.
Estimated lifespan battery is at 2 days when an actual battery percentage of 42%.
I already have betterbatterystats but I do not know if this is the best app for monitoring.
Is there something else I have to look into?
Today I was trying to get my settings in the state I need them to be and when looking at power management / battery usage I can see the screen is the biggest battery user but that seems normal in the current situation.
What about deep sleep, how to monitor this?
How to identify apps being the biggest battery consumers?
What about the apps in manage notifications, there's a lot of them, will it help disabling some / a lot of them?
I really like to get back to charging the phone only once every 2 days.
Any help would really be appreciated.
deboopi2 said:
Any help would really be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better Battery Stats is you friend, it will help you locate what it depleting your battery and keeping your phone awake, as well as listing the deepsleep times .
If you have a rooted phone download Disableservice from the playstore. Reading your post you use a fitness tracker so disabling all of these might not work, but it's worth a go.
Once it's installed, open the system tab, open Google Play Services, then untick (disable) the following:
ConfigFetchService
FitnessSyncAdapterService
GoogleLocationManagerService
GoogleLocationService
NetworkLocationService
ProximitySettingInjectorService
UserPresenceService
WearableControlService
WearableService
WearableSyncService
then reboot your phone.
Disabling these from running should have no impact on your phone, it doesn't for me, and will give you 10-15% more battery life.
Turning of sync on your Gmail also saves a lot of battery, especially if you live in a poor reception area, as it polls the Gmail server every few minutes. Likewise sync on your normal emails. It means you have to check yourself to see if you have any mail, but will put a few extra hours on your battery.
The other thing that extended my battery life was deleting the cached data. Settings\Storage and hold down on Cached data until you get a popup asking you to delete it. I know it sounds bizarre, but it really worked.
Try putting a stock kernel back in for a few days and see if that makes a difference.
Hi, I recently got my S9 but however lately I've been getting idle drain. With mobile data off, I lose about 2% every 2 hours and with mobile data on, I lose 4% every 2 hours. I have GSam installed and used ADB to give it permission for battery stats. Below are screenshots
http://imgur.com/gallery/5c4Q4j4
It seems to be from IMS service. I read that it can be from either WiFi calling or volte. I do not want to turn off either. Had anyone else experienced this? I still have good battery but this idle drain isn't normal. I haven't left my phone overnight so I guess I might try that tonight and see how much it drains
Hi there,
I am re-opening this old thread since I am facing the exact same behaviour with my new S10+. Due to IMS wakelocks, my battery drains 30-40% overnight (while I'm sleeping for 7 hours). If I put my phone in flight mode, it loses 1% overnight. Did you manage to find a solution afterall? I really hate having to put my phone in flight mode every night. Thanks in advance :highfive:
panmitz said:
Hi there,
I am re-opening this old thread since I am facing the exact same behaviour with my new S10+. Due to IMS wakelocks, my battery drains 30-40% overnight (while I'm sleeping for 7 hours). If I put my phone in flight mode, it loses 1% overnight. Did you manage to find a solution afterall? I really hate having to put my phone in flight mode every night. Thanks in advance :highfive:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you ever find a solution to this? Experiencing same problem now ...
Hi ... did any of the posters above find a solution to this issue ?
I am stuck at exactly the same problem: The phone (S9, stock-rom) drains approx 20% over night, doing nothing. Reason (according to GSam Battery Monitor) is the high power consumption of Apps > Android-System > 48 mins (264 count) wakelocks caused by ImsService.
If you look at the picture of batter usage in Gsam you clearly see, the phone stays active all night and barely sleeps/dozes :-(
What I already tried, without any effects:
- clearing cache of all "IMS*" Services in App Manager
- wiping cache partition
- disabling AOD (Always On Display) and VoLTE Telephony
- removing and re-adding google account
I am a little clueless and would like to avoid a factory reset as especially all those nasty "push-tan applications" will most likely need a re-authorization :-(
I'd heavily appreciate any hint.
After a long journey it seems that I found a solution: At least on Android 10 there seems to be a bug in google location services. If you disabled location history, the API requests are still made but get stuck each time (every 60 sec.) and keep the phone awake instead of returning to sleep.
The "bitter" solution was to turn on Google Location history again ... and suddenly the drain ends, as the detection and transmission of the location is ways faster, than letting the die in a timeout ...