Develop Bugs

Game over, Microsoft said HD2 is not upgradeable to WP7S

http://apcmag.com/microsoft-no-windows-phone-7-upgrade-for-windows-mobile-6x-devices.htm
Owners of HTC’s highly-praised HD2 touchscreen smartphone will be unable to upgrade the device to Microsoft’s new Windows Phone 7 software when the OS is released towards the end of the year.
Despite the HD2 meeting many of the criteria laid down in Microsoft’s ‘Chassis 1’ spec – including a 1GHz Qualcomm processor, high-res capacitive touch display, 5 megapixel camera and 3.5mm headphone jack – the phone will be ruled out for the simple reason that it has five buttons instead of the three mandated for all Windows Phone 7 devices.
That’s the official line from Microsoft, at any rate. Natasha Kwan, General Manager for Microsoft’s Mobile Communications Business in the Asia-Pacific region, told APC that the HD2 “doesn’t qualify because it doesn’t have the three buttons”.
At least officially, but un-officially I would bet that some gurus from XDA-dev will make it happen ... when the WP7S is available end of this year. They should be able to get the ROM and port it to HD2. That's my feeling.
And there is still hope this will be negated on the next MIX10 .... Microsoft will say "That's not true, HD2 is upgradeable to WP7S and here is the beta ROM you can put and test"

This .. its just... don't have words 4 this..
Now its all up to the devs..

That well and truly Sux ....
But i have very little to worry about
We're at XDA's !!!!!!!!

gogol said:
At least officially, but un-officially I would bet that some gurus from XDA-dev will make it happen ... when the WP7S is available end of this year. They should be able to get the ROM and port it to HD2. That's my feeling.
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Well, as has been pointed out in many other threads, producing a cooked ROM based on a new CE kernel is a completely different proposition from porting between different versions of WM5 and 6. Whether we see a cooked HD2 ROM based on WP7 is pretty much entirely dependent on three things:
1) There needs to be a beta WP7 ROM for the HD2 produced by Microsoft and/or HTC. (Evidence that this exists is strong, but not absolutely conclusive).
2) The beta version has to be recent enough that there is no change to the driver architecture between it and the released version.
3) The beta has to be leaked.
IMO, the last of those is not by any means guaranteed this time round.

I hardly think that because the HD2 has 2 extra buttons this would prevent WP7S from running on it! Seriously, who are they trying to kid?

Hmm, there's some more stuff in the linked article that the original poster doesn't quote:
There could be more to this than just the sin of having two buttons too many, however: Tony Wilkinson, Business Operations Director for Microsoft Australia, told APC that “there are some hardware components that the HD doesn’t have”.
We’re not sure what those are because Microsoft has not revealed its complete recipe for Windows Phone 7 devices – that’s due to take place at this month’s MIX developer conference in Las Vegas – but we’ve heard that a pixel-pushing graphics chip might be on the checklist.
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Assuming that it's not just a matter of buttons, I'd say that makes even an unofficial HD2 port a bit less likely, but we'll see.

Completely understood.
We could wait that ROM anyway, whether leaked or come from official WP7S phone later this year or God knows where.
There are many amazing things which were unthinkable done by XDA devs here. They just too many to mention here ... HTC Kaiser missing drivers, WM6.5 on <insert HTC devices>, Android on WM, etc.
Even if it could not be done, but having HOPE is not a bad thing ...
However, certainly, this could potentially put a halt on HD2 sales.
Shasarak said:
Well, as has been pointed out in many other threads, producing a cooked ROM based on a new CE kernel is a completely different proposition from porting between different versions of WM5 and 6. Whether we see a cooked HD2 ROM based on WP7 is pretty much entirely dependent on three things:
1) There needs to be a beta WP7 ROM for the HD2 produced by Microsoft and/or HTC. (Evidence that this exists is strong, but not absolutely conclusive).
2) The beta version has to be recent enough that there is no change to the driver architecture between it and the released version.
3) The beta has to be leaked.
IMO, the last of those is not by any means guaranteed this time round.
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Click to collapse

Ruudfood said:
I hardly think that because the HD2 has 2 extra buttons this would prevent WP7S from running on it! Seriously, who are they trying to kid?
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It could certainly be enough to prevent an official WP7 upgrade for the HD2, and we now have word from an actual Microsoft representative which suggeststhat this is indeed the case.
That reminds me, where's Freyberry? He owes a number of people a grovelling apology for insulting them when they suggested that the buttons on the HD2 might have an impact on WP7 availability....
gogol said:
Even if it could not be done, but having HOPE is not a bad thing ...
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Having hope is a bad thing if anyone buys an HD2 because of that hope, only to have it proven unrealistic.
gogol said:
We could wait that ROM anyway, whether leaked or come from official WP7S phone later this year or God knows where.
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A ROM from an official WP7S phone almost certainly wouldn't be adequate. Unless every single hardware component in it is identical to the HD2, you would still have no way of getting hold of the necessary drivers. So if, say, the camera in this phone wasn't the same as the one in the HD2, then it would be impossible to make a cooked WP7 HD2 ROM from it in which the camera works. The only way you could do it is if there is a group of official WP7S phones which between them contain every single component in the HD2 - not just the chipset but the camera, proximity sensor, touchscreen, everything.

I bet the "5 buttons" reason is a bad excuse to not having to reveal more info prior to MIX.
My guess that this reason is BS because of the announcement of LG's first WP7 phone, this is taken from the article about it on neowin:
The device sports a QWERTY slide-out keyboard as well as a touch screen and the three standard Windows Phone 7 prescribed buttons: back, home and search. Other buttons include power, camera and volume controls.
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source:
http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-reveals-first-windows-phone-7-series-handset-from-lg
Obviously this phone has more buttons than the HD2 and will be running WP7.

Shasarak said:
It could certainly be enough to prevent an official WP7 upgrade for the HD2, and we now have word from an actual Microsoft representative which suggeststhat this is indeed the case.
That reminds me, where's Freyberry? He owes a number of people a grovelling apology for insulting them when they suggested that the buttons on the HD2 might have an impact on WP7 availability....
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No comment on this he he he
Shasarak said:
Having hope is a bad thing if anyone buys an HD2 because of that hope, only to have it proven unrealistic.
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Click to collapse
You are correct, but I also said:
However, certainly, this could potentially put a halt on HD2 sales.
What I mean with hope is for "current owner" of HD2
Shasarak said:
A ROM from an official WP7S phone almost certainly wouldn't be adequate. Unless every single hardware component in it is identical to the HD2, you would still have no way of getting hold of the necessary drivers. So if, say, the camera in this phone wasn't the same as the one in the HD2, then it would be impossible to make a cooked WP7 HD2 ROM from it in which the camera works. The only way you could do it is if there is a group of official WP7S phones which between them contain every single component in the HD2 - not just the chipset but the camera, proximity sensor, touchscreen, everything.
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Fully understand. But do you think all the hardware components would be exactly different?
Learning from past experience, most if not all past devices still have the same hardware components. That's why XDA can still port WM6.5 to some of old devices.
Why would suddenly the hardware is now totally differents?
Even if it is new hardware component, I would think it will be backward compatible with the old hardware.
Well, it could be that the new OS requires to use "new drivers format" for that "old hardware" (HD2) ...
That is quite obvious.
So, either the new WP7S devices are still using most the same hardware components, which means the WP7S drivers will be somehow backward compatible with old hardware.
Or, some super clever XDA dev will create new drivers for HD2 using new device driver format of WP7S. This sounds impossible, but .... who knows?

I won't believe any article until MIX. Especially an article which doesn't mention the HD2 in the quote
I see the words "current phones" and "HD", but no HD2 in there. But hey, I'm clutching at straws now really!
gogol said:
Or, some super clever XDA dev will create new drivers for HD2 using new device driver format of WP7S. This sounds impossible, but .... who knows?
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New kernel, relatively new architecture will mean that it will be effectively like porting HD2 to Android...only with zero documentation.

reverse-engineering drivers? just look at the problems present in android-development... ^^ the problem is you need exact (!) specifications of the hardware to start with - and that's closed-source. even after that it's not easy.
but even IF some magician would pull this off, i have learned one thing with the x1: not having an official firmware adapted to the OS you want to use deprives you of a stable base, it will always be patchwork at best. (and i'm talking 6.1 -> 6.5 here, where the difference isn't that big)

I was going to buy a touch hd2 for 425 off craigslist with the complete idea that this phone would be wp7s. Seeing that it won't has left me stay with my reliable tp2...
its a shame actually I wanted the hd2 to be wp7s for obvious reasons

If this is true I will sell my hd2 soon!
I mean the buttons... its nothing but a lie, its not the true reason!
They could have told more early that the HD2 wont get an upgrade they just didnt because they want to sell it!
Then the "russian twitter" thing was only marketing to sell a phone with dead OS..
But I still don't realy believe this.. windows [email protected] told that "there 'may' be information next month".. well it is " next month" but the hd2 wasnt mentioned directly as far as I can see..
Cheers

If the buttons are the culprit, I bet the problem isn't the extra buttons, but lack of the Search button. Sure the Home one could be remapped, but what about consistency, ease of use for consumers etc.?

Blade0rz said:
I won't believe any article until MIX. Especially an article which doesn't mention the HD2 in the quote
I see the words "current phones" and "HD", but no HD2 in there. But hey, I'm clutching at straws now really!
New kernel, relatively new architecture will mean that it will be effectively like porting HD2 to Android...only with zero documentation.
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Agreed, it looks like nothing is set in stone yet:
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2010...-because-of-hardware-buttons-dont-be-so-sure/

chris5932 said:
I mean the buttons... its nothing but a lie, its not the true reason!
They could have told more early that the HD2 wont get an upgrade they just didnt because they want to sell it!
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That would be a good reason for HTC not to offer the upgrade, but I don't see how Microsoft sells more WP7 licences by not allowing the HD2 to be upgraded. From Microsoft's perspective what matters is getting an absolutely consistent look-and-feel across all WP7 phones. So I find it plausible that Microsoft might refuse to sell HTC any licences to install WP7 on HD2's, given the lack of a search button.

I'm not giving up hope yet though. They've already announced the button requirement. If the HD2 was going to be disqualified for this reason why not say so? I don't think this is over. She's all the way on the other side of the planet from Redmond and most likely less 'in the know' just for this reason. Just this Saturday a much more knowledgeable MS rep said 'Wait for MIX' in regards to the HD2 getting an upgrade.
The statement leads me to believe that the MS rep in a far flung region is just interpreting the 3 button requirement to automatically mean that MS won't allow any current devices to get the upgrade and not them having actual info that the HD2 will specifically not get the upgrade. That and MS will need to get some sort of hardware in devs hands before official availability. An emulator is nice and all but real hardware is key. The HD2 is supposedly launching here in the States right after MIX. Coincidence? Maybe I'm just grasping at straws but fingers crossed nonetheless.
Shasarak said:
Well, as has been pointed out in many other threads, producing a cooked ROM based on a new CE kernel is a completely different proposition from porting between different versions of WM5 and 6. Whether we see a cooked HD2 ROM based on WP7 is pretty much entirely dependent on three things:
1) There needs to be a beta WP7 ROM for the HD2 produced by Microsoft and/or HTC. (Evidence that this exists is strong, but not absolutely conclusive).
2) The beta version has to be recent enough that there is no change to the driver architecture between it and the released version.
3) The beta has to be leaked.
IMO, the last of those is not by any means guaranteed this time round.
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Click to collapse
I think you're making some assumptions that aren't fair to make at this point in time. If the hardware is nearly identical to the HD2 (which it will be) why would it need an entirely new bootloader as compared to other WP7 devices? #2 (and therefore 3 as well) doesn't even make sense as they're developing this on CE. It's not like they're going to change CE versions mid-dev. The driver architecture won't change. MS has stated that they're doing all the driver dev, not the OEMs. As long as the HD2 matches the chassis specs, there's no reason it will need different drivers. The only thing that concerns me is the bootloader as it's my understanding that it's unique per device and likely a WM6 bootloader won't be able to boot WP7.

Shasarak said:
That would be a good reason for HTC not to offer the upgrade, but I don't see how Microsoft sells more WP7 licences by not allowing the HD2 to be upgraded. From Microsoft's perspective what matters is getting an absolutely consistent look-and-feel across all WP7 phones. So I find it plausible that Microsoft might refuse to sell HTC any licences to install WP7 on HD2's, given the lack of a search button.
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Well I agree with most ppl here.. lets just wait til MIX..
There are severall things said that fight each other!
MS:"info for hd2 may next month","no upgrade for WinM 6.X phones"
HTC:"HD2 is able to run WP7's",
HTC twitter:"HD2 will get an upgrade" ..
I think the chances are still as before the article but make ur own guess.
Cheers

I wonder if microsoft is using some sort of qualcomm system on chip like there new MSM7x30 soc. As microsoft is only letting snapdragon devices, im sure they have a certain gpu that they have to use so the performance is the same on all handsets. so a SOC would make sense and that might be why the hd2 does not meet the specs.
Also i dont think the hd2 has 4 point multi touch.
Also i think microsoft wont let them upgrade as they wont 3 buttons only on the front so to let the hd2 have a upgrade on to wm7 makes a mockery of wm7 requirements.

My Thoughts on WP7

I will apologize in advance for this will be long and random because my thoughts bounce around like that
You know I've been trying to figure it all out lately. It seems a good portion of XDA (40% according to this poll) members are liking 6.5.3 moreso than 7. OK...fine. Then we have this huge population of people (34% according to this poll that plan on switching to another mobile OS. Not to mention the slew of people still pissed and wondering if the HD2 will be forward compatible. And the ever increasing amount of people still prefer Sense UI over WP7. Its all so much to address so I just stopped posting for a while...but I wonder?!?!? Is change really that bad?
Its like people have been *****ing for months wanting M$ to give us the scoop on WP7...we have it and we're pissed. lol. lets move past all this...I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people. Why don't we use this forum for sharing information and not bashing something that not out nor is it finished...we don't have even close to half of the info about this phone yet we are judging it based upon insubstantial information.
I remember when the videos started coming out, the guy at the booth mentions that copy/paste hadn't been implemented into the OS yet...then I read on this forum that there is NO COPY/PASTE. One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...so all current users can still have all the things they love currently for the next 10 years (with microsofts string of innovation..lol.) But lets be honest lets look at 6+ as a whole:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
Blandness. This is the biggest issue. I've mentioned this before in other posts. Why is it everytime I want to accomplish anything in the OS I'm lead to an ugly white screen? Settings=ugly. SMS=ugly. Email=Ugly ANY SYSTEM MENU=UGLY. Its no wonder we all like Sense UI from HTC. Go to search and look up Contact Manager...see how many apps you get. Look up music players, lock screens, UI's etc. We got that by dozens. WHY? Now if you look at the scene currently...its because it gives us a choice to personalize, and I agree. But if you look back this was born out of a need for better rather than a need for different/personalization. Media player sucked...it was bland hard to navigate and generally a terrible experience. AC takes the best out the (Iphone) and creates it for WM (S2P)...sure it looks great but the need was much more for a BETTER player. Same can be said for S2U2 et al. HTC needed Manilla/sense to make our outdated UI look appealing/current. Everything about Sense is better than stock, Same can be said for Samsungs Touchwiz. These things were born out of necessity.
Terrible manufacturing. For all the HTC love out there, we all seem to let them get away with the fact that for the past 10 years (up until HD2) they have been giving us awesome software coupled with terrible hardware. It is a fact that we had incomplete/missing drivers and because of this alot of development was stalled or took forever to do. And image how much money HTC made off of shaving costs with shoddy manufacturing.
I won't got too indepth there but to keep it simple, M$ has those basic problems to deal with when making a new OS.
Now look at WP7, Easily top of the line spec sheet just for minimum requirements. I knew we were in for greatness when we got that bit of info. C'mon snapdragon as the minimum...awesome. This also gets rid of those Terrible manufacturing woes...so people can't just put out trash with the M$ OS on it. No more phones that crash from simple program openings. Also WVGA as the standard. No more need to build an app and then port it to other resolutions (WIN..) This coupled with the XNA/Silverlight development tolls make it possible to build for Xbox, PC, Mobile all at the same time...thats awesome and a huge win. Lastly, with Metro, there is no need for user skins on top of the UI. I know alot of you guys are newer to WM, but back in the day...I remember where the home screen was just "the homescreen"..the ugly green or blue homescreen with whatever info you needed on it (Weatherpanel FTW..anyone?) People realized how blah it was and you see where we are now. Look at Sense...its awesome because it gives you all the same info but it looks good and its faster. Metro has live tiles that give you access to EVERYTHING you need on your phone. Its not like the iphone where you check your SMS by tapping sms its something completely different, better. You go from the Hub into the universe that is you contacts, updated twitters, facebook, photos, sms, emails....everything at the touch of the finger...just by going into contacts. Thats awesome. Granted I don't uses twitter or facebook but its a nice touch. But if you look at it, there is still more room for innovation...HTC weather HUB anyone?
So yeah, a phone is a means of communications, a cell phone is a portable way of communication..Wp7 looks to be communication on steroids. I apologize for this extremely long message but i had to get out everything on my mind...in a place where people would read it. If you stuck it out, thank you. If you post telling me that was too long, you're absolutely right. Sorry

Good One..Well said, and I agree
devs, here do not trying to understand, if MS is closing one door, they are opening 100 doors as in the Xbox and other services can be synced among them, so this gives lot of opportunity to devs to come up with exciting creativve ideas.
Also, MS wnats to extend the scope with reaching out to all types of users and segments, and what they have showed here is the perfect thing.I am wwaiting for a review or hands on for a fully furnished and finished wp7 device.

I totally agree with you style. WM5 was a good os, but boring, Then here comes WM6.0 6.1 with touchflo. It was awesome, but the os sucked really bad, had a bunch of bugs and its just a let down. I had a htc 8125 which the phone itself was a resilient phone, but it just was sluggish with any of the OS except WM5 on it. I believe the phone couldn't exactly hold its own with the software but never the less it was slow running wm 6.5. The phone ran the os but I think windows had a bunch of problems. I am no longer using my 8125 cuz the poor thing died from a heart attack and major artery blockage from being used hard lol. I have a 8525 coming in and im planning on putting wm7 on it. Can't wait. I may be in for a let down but if I am then I still have a pretty cool phone coming to me, and it makes me look kinda cool for having it haha.

+1 good post b

A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.

gogol said:
A very good post.
Just keep in mind that WP7 is a "new" platform. It is not an upgrade of current WM6.x.
Being a new platform, it means new kind of hardware, OS, and applications.
It will start with 0 or less available applications when it launch. Same like iPhone / Android when they just newly released. Nothing to worry here, except you hate waiting.
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Click to collapse
So true....but there will be a good amount of apps available on launch because its using the Zune software so it will be running Zune Apps...I have a few games on my Zune already...all are nice and smooth.
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
~style1~
Thank you guys for the comments, I already had my flame suit on..

Exactly i was thinking same. MS has to start from 0 ..... new os, new hw, new life.
I like the functionality of new OS but not the GUI . and i believe lot will change till final release. Still i will use wp7 if everything seems to work out.
personally i would like cab installation and customization on wp7
guess how cool it would be lil customization like Sense UI on wp7 .. or adding app by cab ....
but i think whatever wp7 will be, it will worth using.

style1 said:
Also BobbyJ, you won't be able to upgrade the 8525 to WP7. Hardware isn't up to par.
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Hardware is up to par, only the buttons are not the same.
user Xmoo (does something with testing devices) stated on a dutch forum that there are HD2's running WP7 at HTC Taiwan.
Some user here stated (from internal sources) that it is defenitely possible to run WP7. All microsoft said till this date, that the HD2 doenst have the right buttons.
Im agree totally with you on this subject. Its certainly the only way for Microsoft to capture some decent marketshare.

@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.

pilgrim011 said:
@style1, you don't no what real multitasking is. Guys from MS already confirmed that thirdy party multitasking won't be allowed. And about other things you said, let me repeat myself: they're trying to make an OS for underage people, retards, music and gaming fans which don't care about the fact that they don't have real multitasking, file system access etc.
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I don' remember reading or hearing confirmation that multitasking won't be available. They clearly stated many times that some kind of multitasking will be available. We shall know everything(or almost everything) after MIX.
Stop judging unfinished OS that you don't even know. What you're saying is pure speculation.

style1 said:
OS Fragmentation...this is one of the biggest issues for me. Everytime I see an app I like on this website I have to see if its resolution compatible with my device (WVGA FTW). Go look in the XDA development section for new apps or apps in developments...I'm sure everyone of them will have a post saying "please make this for QVGA" or something similar. This is huge. Android also has a similar issue BTW
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I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.

It is not specifically the OS, but the "platform" as a whole (screen size, screen type, number of buttons, processor speed, type of buttons, size of RAM, flip phone, slide phone, whatnot, etc).
And yes, it is painful to maintain a lot of builds specific for those kind of varieties.
Not to mention lack OS update because of phone operator / carrier lazyness (I bought my HTC Kaiser unlocked from HTC because I learned that T-Mobile is very slow giving update).
That's why I am glad that Microsoft is now taking control of the minimum hardware specification. Because that would be an advantage of current WM situation, especially to reduce fragmentation as much as possible.
Also the fact that Microsoft will provide OS update and hardware drivers (no more *****ing around about HTC missing drivers).
Instead of developer wandering around to "patch" their apps to work on fragmented platform, or figuring out tricks to over-come missing drivers. They can now enjoy leveraging their creativity for making consistent apps in well supported plaform (WP7).
RAMMANN said:
I'm not sure if you can make the OS responsible for that. I'd rather blame it on lazy development. And I don't really say it's so easy. Developing for WM is just so much different than coding for a desktop OS. It's not sufficient at all to just throw some control on a dialog and that's it. Due to small space on screen you have to be really carefully what you do, and always have to keep in mind to NOT develop for a fixed resolution. It's painful but everything UI related needs to be handled dynamically and automatically adjust to whatever screen resolution/orientation. You see the problems that some apps had when the start menu moved to bottom? Few pixels wrong and the app is garbage!! But then... the applications that were developed properly are still working! Go figure!
On the other hand if the framework for WP7 is really THAT great then the whole UI development should be totally resolution independent. This is really needed because I don't think it's right that there's only WVGA for WP7. It was only told that WVGA is the minimium requirement, which for me means in the future there will be higher resolutions and we'd face the same problems again.
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style1 said:
I mean its borderline ludicrous when people are saying (as this thread ) that he's selling his phone because because he's not sure if he's getting the upgrade to the OS that isn't gonna be released for another 6 months...lol WTF people.
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The problem is not just that the HD2 won't get an upgrade, it's the combination of it not getting an upgrade plus the fact that WP7 will not be backwards-compatible with Windows Moble applications. That is something almost nobody saw coming.
The effect of the non-backwards-compatibility announcement has been to completely kill off Windows Mobile as a viable platform for commercial software development. (Look at Adobe, look at Skype - there will be plenty of other developers jumping ship, most of whom probably won't make any public announcement about it).
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
style1 said:
One guy asked the phone operator about multitasking. The guy replies "the phone itself multitasks." He was then followup asked to go to the home screen and press the back button in which the phone lead him back to to the task he was previously doing (IE: MULTITASKING)....I look on this forum..."WP7 doesn't multitask wtfloljumpfrombuildingdiewithmelmaojkjkjkjk." where did this random unsubstantiated info come from? Its like people aren't even watching, listening, reading anymore.
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Click to collapse
No, it's like you aren't paying attention.
There have been a number of announcements and leaks on the subject of multi-tasking, and we now have a pretty clear idea of how it will work. There can only be one foreground application. When a typical application is moved to the background, it will be suspended, but capable of being resumed from the same point when it is reactivated; it will not, however, be capable of actually doing anything while in the background. It will be possible for certain, select applications and services to actually run in the background rather than being paused, but this facility will be available only to applications developed by MS, or by their "partners" - i.e. phone manufacturers and networks.
style1 said:
6.5.3 is awesome and MS has said it will continue to build upon it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, but no one takes that claim seriously.

Shasarak said:
If, when I bought my HD2, I had been told "well, it won't get an upgrade to WP7, but any application written for Windows Mobile will run quite happily on WP7, so there's every incentive for people to keep developing for the HD2's platform" that would have been fine. If they'd said "Windows Mobile will cease to be a commercially viable platform 3 months after you buy the phone, but you will eventually get an upgrade to WP7" that would have been okay - not great, but okay. But for them to say "you won't be getting an upgrade and the phone's existing OS is no longer commercially viable as of now" and for them to say that 3 months after I bought it but not to say anything beforehand - that is something I can well understand people being annoyed about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Maybe we also forget that WM 6.5.x is brand new and just about to be launched. How many phones have you seen with a 6.5.3 stock ROM? There will still be plenty of new phones coming!
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....

RAMMANN said:
If you buy the HD2 then you can develop for the HD2. You can't expect to develop software for devices which are released 1 year later and run a completely different OS. Officially noone really confirmed that HD2 runs WP7. People were spectaculating that it would run on the HD2 but these have only been rumours that shouldn't really make anyone decide to buy the phone. HD2 is as good as a WM 6.5 device can get and that's what it was made for. Nothing more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The point is that no one realised WP7 would be "a completely different OS" - we were all completely blindsided by that. No one expected a situation where there wouldn't be a single WM6 application capable of running on WP7. If, as everyone expected and as HTC allowed HD2 buyers to believe, WP7 had been backwards-compatible, WM6.5 would still be a viable platform for commercial software: people could keep on developing software for WM6, secure in the knowledge that it would run just as well on WP7 when that eventually came along. The lack of backwards-compatibility has killed WM6 stone cold dead as a commercial platform: no sensible commercial developer will develop for it at all, anymore, they'll skip straight to WP7 (if they even bother with a Microsoft version at all). Until the no-backwards-compatibility announcement happened, an upgrade was much less important; now, it really matters.
RAMMANN said:
I see the WM 6.5.x vs WP7 scenario to be a bit similar like Windows NT vs. Windows 95. Windows NT was mainly a network OS used in companies while Windows 95 was designed more for the end user that's supposed to play DirectX games and such. And in this case if you bought a PC with Windows NT you couldn't develop games which need to support newest DirectX technology....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's such a ridiculous analogy I hardly know where to begin.... Well, for starters, consider just how much Windows 95 software actually ran under NT - pretty much all of it did, with the only exception being games. And for those who needed gaming support, MS continued with fresh releases based on the Windows 95 development stream - 98, 98SE even ME - all of which could run virtually all NT-oriented software as well. Those releases didn't dry up until after full support for DirectX (and even improved DOS emulation) ended up in the NT line.
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?

Shasarak said:
Microsoft here has done the equivalent of abandoning Windows completely and basing all of its future OS releases on UNIX - if you imagine that people running Windows would be unable to upgrade to the new UNIX OS when it came along. If they had done that, what do you think Windows software developers would have done? And how do you think people who had bought Windows PC's would have felt?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications (yeah, we here will certainly do, but most users won't, and even most software companies won't). WM has been going along its way to oblivion in terms of market share, and, frankly, we didn't see many (if any at all) big software guys pumping investment into the platform anyway.
Apart from "big" Windows I'd guess the biggest MS-driven market is the XBox. So they chose compatibility with that "ecosystem" over the WM one. Disappointing as it is, I think that it was the right decision for MS really.

If I may address a few things...Aaron Woodman has gone on record saying that there will be multitasking on the phone. Let me just drop an excerpt:
"Among the details unveiled by him in that interview, we can count the fact that there will be multitasking in the new operating system, although previous rumors pointed otherwise. However, the approach on applications is a little different than before, as they will be included/integrated with the hubs Windows Phone OS 7 sports, and this is something that Microsoft is set to detail at MIX10. The main idea, however, is that apps will be there, and that they will be selected so as to be in line with the new user experience the company is trying to promote."
So maybe I as well as microsoft have NO IDEA WHAT MULTITASKING IS. I'm not trying to make opinions and substantiate them with evidence...I'm looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion from it. M$ says there will be multitasking in their platform then I have to conclude that there will be multitasking even if I haven't personally seen the way it will be handled on a bigger scale. Trying to prove otherwise without any info is just reckless. Now of course it doesn't seem that they are multitasking in the traditional way and I am curious to see exactly how the system is multitasking but if I may speculate I think it deals with the back button. It seems everytime you switch tasks you press the home button then go into your hub of what you are going to do...once you finish you press the home button and go into the next task...since we know the back button doesn't lead to the Homescreen, maybe the back button leads through all the previous tasks in the order that you went through them. That would be simple and unobtrusive. Thats just my speculation based upon the videos I've seen so far...prove me wrong please.
Also about being blindside you're right it was a shock to most. I think M$ has gone on record saying they will still support WM as WPclassic(WPC) so i don't think you guys have just been outright abandoned...but. I wonder, with all the issues that you are labelling about WP7 but still complaining that the HD2 wont be able to upgrade to it, which side of the fence do you really sit on. You can't really be on both sides. But while I'm being prudent HTC has gone on record many times saying the HD2 will be upgradable to WP7, M$ has said that it doesn't plan on upgrading the device. They site the three button crap as a reason but interestingly enough Tony Wilkinson, Microsoft Australia's Business Operations Director, has said that "there are some hardware components that the HD doesn't have." Could this be why the HD2 coming to Tmoble seems to be a beefier version? We don't know but its always fun to speculate. Since M$ hasn't offically released a FULL spec list we have no idea but we will know at MIX10. Hell maybe M$ has no plan on upgrading HD2 but they are leaving it solely up to the manufactures to deliver on that which is why there are 2 conflicting views coming from HTC and M$...who knows right now. But based on the facts these are likely conclusions.
I won't bother with any other thing said because its more off topic..I don't really care whether people think that people will stop developing on 6.5.X just because WP7 is released... they obviously underestimate this site. Hell what more do people need?
~style~

vangrieg said:
Except WM is nowhere near Windows in terms of network effect... Very few people will notice the loss of WM applications
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.

Shasarak said:
HD2 users will, which is why they're angry at the lack of an upgrade path.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some of them will, some won't. I am an HD2 user and I don't care, I don't want to own it for another year anyway, I'd happily exchange it right now if there were something better. I'm sure most HD2 users don't even know what OS their device is running (I know my wife wouldn't know). So we're talking about a few hundred thousand users max. And that's just the user side. A commercial WM developer network is pretty much non-existent right now, apart from SPB, Resco and a couple other small firms.

Well done. I completely agree. I'm looking forward to it. Most users are just bitter and don't want change. I think the main worry with the cooks or other users is that is that it won't offer the amount of customization of 6.5 and below, but they fail to forget that the Iphone is boring until you jailbreak, in the process opening up many possibilities. I think the same will be said for WP7S

Windows phone 7 - FAQ (please read first)

I have created a small FAQ to address some common WP7 related questions, a little attempt to try to stop people from asking same questions over and over again. Maybe the moderators can put it as sticky?
Q: Can I run Windows phone 7 on my HD2?
A: No you can't! Microsoft have told multiple times that there won't be an upgrade for HD2.
Q: I have seen screenshots of HD2 running WP7, is it possible to run WP7 on my HD2?
A: This might have been a fake picture. And even if it's real there will be no ugprade coming from Microsoft.
Q: But on my HD2 box it's written I'll receive free upgrade to WP7!
A: Microsoft are writing drivers for WP7 devices so it depends on Microsoft and not on HDC. Microsoft said the HD2 won't run it!
Q: But the HD2 meets the minimum hardware requirements, can I run WP7 on it?
A: It's decided by Microsoft, it will NOT run!
Q: Recently a ROM of WP7 was leaked can you give me step by step instructions to put it on my phone?
A: Nothing was leaked. The only thing that happened is that someone extracted the emulator image from the new Windows phone SDK.
Q: So what? Can I run it on my phone now?
A: No!
Q: I downloaded the leaked ROM but I don't know how to run it!
A: There's no leaked ROM. Download the Windows phone SDK and run the emulator from your Visual Studio project.
Q: Now that we have the leaked ROM can I cook it on my Touch pro 2?
A: No!
Q: Can I simply put the leaked ROM in my kitchen with a little hacks here and there and run WP7?
A: There's no leaked ROM. And the emulator image is based on x86 CPU. Your device runs an ARM CPU.
Q: I seen the file structure is the same like in my kitchen. Give me step by step instructions to cook a WP7 ROM for my device!
A: No it's not possible!
Q: If we have a real WP7 device and extract the ROM can the great developers at XDA please out it on my HP IPAQ?
A: WP7 is based on a new kernel and you don't have WP7 drivers for your device. It won't be possible to run WP7 on any older device.
Q: But I have bought a brand new HD2 and they said WP7 upgrade is free!
A: If you don't have the WP7 drivers for HD2 then it's not possible at all!
Q: But the hackers at XDA can still do it?
A: Probably not!
Q: That sucks! I'll switch to Android.
A: Have a nice day, goodbye!

Q: But I have bought a brand new HD2 and they said WP7 upgrade is free!
A: If you don't have the WP7 drivers for HD2 then it's not possible at all!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A: You will probably get a new WP7 device either free or discounted.

LOL @ half the FAQ being HD2 owners

Well it can't be taken seriously enough to be a sticky if it's an FAQ for idiots. Half the questions about an HD2 and the other half about a leaked ROM? It's humorous, but non-thick-headed people might have real actual questions about 7.
The picture was fake, not probably fake.. and that's not even necessary to say since the answer to the first question was NO.
Funny post though

Q: Can I run Windows phone 7 on my HD2?
There is no real information about upgrading the HTC HD2 at the moment. Rumors and the whole information over 60% - 80% is not real about WM7 on HTCH D2. The HTC can not disappoint so many customers because they will lose them as a result to lose million of money. The HTC will take the case very seriously. And from the other hand HTC and Microsoft have very good dealings they can't "destroy" this dealing for a WM Upgrade! Think about it.......
Q: I have seen screenshots of HD2 running WP7, is it possible to run WP7 on my HD2?
At the moment no.Maybe fake or early Beta Versions for HTC Corporations Beta Testers-Programmers......One God knows!
Q: But the HD2 meets the minimum hardware requirements, can I run WP7 on it?
The HTC HD2 hasn't any minimum hardware requirements the ONLY minimum hardware is graphic processor nothings else! (except the Microsoft decisions for 3 buttons etc..... ) The WM7 can't switch to no Graphics Mode from the settings (i just thought!) ??? We don't know!!!
Q: That sucks! I'll switch to Android.
Hey calm down!! You don't know if the information about upgrade will available for Nowadays HTC devices
Q: The above questions are really vague???
Yes with possibility up to 60%-70% the information are really vague.
Q: But on my HD2 box it's written I'll receive free upgrade to WP7!
Your answer is right at least 60%. If theres any disagreement between Microsoft and HTC. HTC would produce only Android phones no Wphones.
Q: But the hackers at XDA can still do it?
The problem always have a solution most of time. Maybe not hackers at XDA can't do it but another hackers can do it...... vague that!!
burnblue said:
Well it can't be taken seriously enough to be a sticky if it's an FAQ for idiots. Half the questions about an HD2 and the other half about a leaked ROM? It's humorous, but non-thick-headed people might have real actual questions about 7.
The picture was fake, not probably fake.. and that's not even necessary to say since the answer to the first question was NO.
Funny post though
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1000000+
The above questions are somewhat vague and you can't answer them by my opinion It's very very very very and 1 million very early for microsoft to take these decisions!! The WM7 it still fresh beta version.......Just think it......
Peace
Yours em1111

@RAMMANN
Very funny, ymmd

RAMMANN said:
Q: But the HD2 meets the minimum hardware requirements, can I run WP7 on it?
A: It's decided by Microsoft, it will NOT run!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A better answer to that might be to point out that the HD2 doesn't meet the minimum hardware requirements.
It doesn't have a search button. Arguably it doesn't have a dedicated power button. It doesn't have a hardware camera button. It has only half a gigabyte of onboard flash, when the minimum amount needed is 8GB. It has an SD card reader which is banned on WP7S devices. There are also question-marks over whether it has the necessary "hardware scaler" (which apparently is distinct from the GPU) and, more seriously, whether its touch-screen is capable of registering the required four independent points of contact or only two.

burnblue said:
Well it can't be taken seriously enough to be a sticky if it's an FAQ for idiots. Half the questions about an HD2 and the other half about a leaked ROM? It's humorous, but non-thick-headed people might have real actual questions about 7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, although I'd make this a real rule:
RAMMANN said:
Q: That sucks! I'll switch to Android.
A: Have a nice day, goodbye!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And also would make that goodbye permanent in case someone breaks it. These posts are annoying as hell. Like threatening me that someone is switching to whatever OS has any meaning at all. I don't give a damn, and I'm here to read about WP7, really.

Shasarak said:
A better answer to that might be to point out that the HD2 doesn't meet the minimum hardware requirements.
It doesn't have a search button. Arguably it doesn't have a dedicated power button. It doesn't have a hardware camera button. It has only half a gigabyte of onboard flash, when the minimum amount needed is 8GB. It has an SD card reader which is banned on WP7S devices. There are also question-marks over whether it has the necessary "hardware scaler" (which apparently is distinct from the GPU) and, more seriously, whether its touch-screen is capable of registering the required four independent points of contact or only two.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, it doesn't meet the minimum requirements, but people keep saying it does.
I'm not an owner of a HD2 device but even if I had one I wouldn't be so sissy about it. It's a WM 6.5 device and that's it. WP7 is a completely new chapter! It's meant to be a new OS and not only an update. And even if we already figured out what the kernel and OS structure is still somewhat similar from what we have now..... it doesn't change a thing!
Today I read the emulator is unlocked. Great! But in the next post I had to read the same nonsene again "Can I put it on my device now?"
GRRRRRRMMMMM!!!!
Why don't they just GET IT????

To be fair, another very frequently asked question is:
Q: lolz, why u wnt WP7S on HD2, it sux0rs, u r all idiots, no wun eva sed HD2 wud have WP7 n e way why don you all just sht up?!?!?! lolz
or words to that effect. The answer would be something like:
Some people feel that HTC implied that there would be a WP7 upgrade for the HD2, and that HTC has broken its promises. Most people, however, are more annoyed about the impact of the WP7 announcement on WM6.x.
When we bought our HD2's just a couple of months ago, no one could have guessed that WP7 would not be backwards-compatible with WM6.x - in other words that no WM6.x application would run on WP7. The effect of this is that, from the moment of the announcement, W6.x became a dead platform as far as commercial software development is concerned. Of course, hobbyist development will continue; but there is no longer any good reason for commercial software houses to produce new products or updates for WM6.x; instead they will jump straight to WP7S.
We are already seeing this with a number of major companies, for example Skype, Adobe (who have cancelled their FlashPlayer project for WM6.x) and even Microsoft (who have have recently announced a new version of Silverlight for the platform Symbian, but decided not to do so for Windows Mobile).
HTC must have known this would happen at the time the HD2 first went on sale, but conveniently neglected to mention it to anyone, which has made a lot of people angry. A free upgrade to WP7S might have gone some way towards compensating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I think it's name must be VistaMobile not WP7

Very good all these, but Microsoft didn't ask HD2 owners if they want to run series 7 at them devices
Me and meny other owners we say NO, WE DIDN'T LIKE SERIES 7
We prefer our Leo like it is, with windows 6.5 or 6.5.3 and the HTC Sense which it is match more practical than the blue doors of series 7 and has better graphics.
We prefer to have copy paste, multi tasking, unlocked os, so as to put anything we want.
I had iPhone 3g and 3Gs before. I come back at WM because of these stupid restrictions, which they are only to make as to buy stupid apps from them stores.
If I must accept something like that, I prefer to original, I mean apple
MS the last years lost the most of the smartphone users. Only powers users continue with WM because of HTC no because Microsoft.
With series 7, they open the door for us also.
We are not at the them target plan, but they are not also at our plan.
The new users which they will come at the smartphones, they will have to choice between a new windows os and a famous iPhone os which after 3 years experience and millions sales will be better.
What you thing they will choice?
Microsoft made a big mistake. If they had an other way can win very easy all the disappointment iPhone and droid users, and after that the most of the new users which they will follow the new wave.
We will see after some months who is right.

Windows 7 --> EVO 4G
Forgive me for my ignorance on the issue. Based on the info posted here, I understand that one of the impediments to WP7-->HD2 is the lack of WP7 drivers for the HD2.
Then, is it safe to say that WP7-->EVO 4G will be in the same boat? Or will it be even worse off? Does it matter that the EVO 4G is an Android phone? Will that make it any harder to install WP7 on that device? Or would it present the exact same difficulties as installing WP7 on the HD2?

nanoo-eg said:
Very good all these, but Microsoft didn't ask HD2 owners if they want to run series 7 at them devices
Me and meny other owners we say NO, WE DIDN'T LIKE SERIES 7
We prefer our Leo like it is, with windows 6.5 or 6.5.3 and the HTC Sense which it is match more practical than the blue doors of series 7 and has better graphics.
We prefer to have copy paste, multi tasking, unlocked os, so as to put anything we want.
I had iPhone 3g and 3Gs before. I come back at WM because of these stupid restrictions, which they are only to make as to buy stupid apps from them stores.
If I must accept something like that, I prefer to original, I mean apple
MS the last years lost the most of the smartphone users. Only powers users continue with WM because of HTC no because Microsoft.
With series 7, they open the door for us also.
We are not at the them target plan, but they are not also at our plan.
The new users which they will come at the smartphones, they will have to choice between a new windows os and a famous iPhone os which after 3 years experience and millions sales will be better.
What you thing they will choice?
Microsoft made a big mistake. If they had an other way can win very easy all the disappointment iPhone and droid users, and after that the most of the new users which they will follow the new wave.
We will see after some months who is right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+ 1. I couldnt agree more ...
I like to try wp7 for a while, but I'm pretty sure that i'll stick to 6.5 for at least a few years until microsoft improves it

Windows Phone 7 – Released To Manufacturing

Today is the day that the Windows Phone team has been driving towards, and we’re very excited to say that we’ve reached the biggest milestone for our internal team – the release to manufacturing (RTM) of Windows Phone 7! While the final integration of Windows Phone 7 with our partners’ hardware, software, and networks is underway, the work of our internal engineering team is largely complete.
Windows Phone 7 is the most thoroughly tested mobile platform Microsoft has ever released. We had nearly ten thousand devices running automated tests daily, over a half million hours of active self-hosting use, over three and a half million hours of stress test passes, and eight and a half million hours of fully automated test passes. We’ve had thousands of independent software vendors and early adopters testing our software and giving us great feedback. We are ready.
I last posted on this blog when we reached the Technical Preview milestone, and we’ve received some great feedback since then which we’ve been able to respond to and improve the smart design throughout the OS. For example, folks loved the Facebook integration in the People Hub, but they also wanted ways to filter their contacts so only the Facebook friends they really know will show up in their contact list – we’ve added support for that. We’ve also made it easy to “like” a post right from the People Hub, or quickly post a message to someone’s Facebook wall directly.
This has been one of the most incredible product development efforts I’ve ever been a part of. Today’s milestone is exciting not just because of what we’ll deliver to customers later this year, but how it sets us up for success over the long term in the mobile space… we’re really just getting started.
We reached today’s milestone because of the tremendous efforts of the entire team including our partners, early adopters, and independent software developers providing feedback. I want to send a huge THANK YOU to this extended team– we couldn’t have done it without you!
by Terry Myerson
Windows Phone Blog
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_...indows-phone-7-released-to-manufacturing.aspx

To general!
~~Tito~~

They're listening, that's great news by itself.

If they want to get this right they better be listening.

I wonder how long it will take them to move to silverlight 4 so they can get the clipboard support. Also I wonder how long before we'll see ie9 integrated into there as well.

Here's what I want to see:
1. HTML5
2. Silverlight/Flash in browser (I know flash is planned)
3. Copy/Paste
4. 3rd Party Multitasking
5. Thumb Drive Support even if it's restricted access to what's viewable.

Kloc said:
1. HTML5
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't understand why people want this so bad recently. I can't think of a single site that even has a html5 version yet alone HTML5 only. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't use it...but it's hardly on my radar of things to care about.

Just because it's the newest standard and it won't be long before sites are implementing it. I've looked at the docs and it has some pretty cool stuff built-in. I'd just like to see MS stay up with the lastest and greatest.

Kloc said:
Just because it's the newest standard and it won't be long before sites are implementing it. I've looked at the docs and it has some pretty cool stuff built-in. I'd just like to see MS stay up with the lastest and greatest.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it'll be a rather long time (5-10 yrs) before anyone major decides to really make a site really dependent on HTML5/CSS3. The reality is it takes a long time for people to migrate to newer technologies ie. a decade later and we're supporting IE6 and XP. I can see using it as an enhancement for people capable of viewing that content. But you still want your site to be designed for non-HTML5 content if you want to appeal to everyone.
From a web development point of view, you're also stepping into a mindfield as browser compatiblity is concerned.

gom99 said:
I think it'll be a rather long time (5-10 yrs) before anyone major decides to really make a site really dependent on HTML5/CSS3. The reality is it takes a long time for people to migrate to newer technologies ie. a decade later and we're supporting IE6 and XP. I can see using it as an enhancement for people capable of viewing that content. But you still want your site to be designed for non-HTML5 content if you want to appeal to everyone.
From a web development point of view, you're also stepping into a mindfield as browser compatiblity is concerned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly I don't really care all that much. It's just because the iphone has it

Kloc said:
Honestly I don't really care all that much. It's just because the iphone has it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol yea, it's never a good idea to give Jobs something to make a snarky comment at one of his conferences. He's such a whiney brat . I don't think I've seen a single conference where he hasn't had some kind of underhanded remark to make.

I still want to know what the MS excuse de jour is for making WP7 incompatible with existing devices, especially since their site pushes some pricy Windows phones. If this oversight can't be fixed, they ought to give away or discount replacement phones.

piaqt said:
I still want to know what the MS excuse de jour is for making WP7 incompatible with existing devices, especially since their site pushes some pricy Windows phones. If this oversight can't be fixed, they ought to give away or discount replacement phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not really an excuse. If you sat down and thought about it you'd come up with the answer. If you made it for the devices today you'd be making it for older hardware and you'd have to limit what your OS could do based on the crop of current windows phones (aside from the hd2 they're pretty slow).
By setting it's requirements MS ensures that they provide a certain baseline experience to their end users. By having a standard for minimum buttons you're making it easy for consumers to pick up any wp7 regardless of what maker and have a consistent experience.
It's not an oversight. I don't see why they need discount replacement phones, this would be a carrier decision anyway...kind of like a cash for klunkers program.

piaqt said:
I still want to know what the MS excuse de jour is for making WP7 incompatible with existing devices, especially since their site pushes some pricy Windows phones. If this oversight can't be fixed, they ought to give away or discount replacement phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a fresh start and they really needed it. They decided to make a baseline and all the window's phone out today don't meet the requirements. I think this is a good move by MS. If you can't afford to buy a new phone then just used your 6.5 device until you can. If they had made them all upgradable we would still have the bad fragmentation that Windows Mobile has today. I'm sure there will be cheaper model, heavily subsidizes devices that will hit the market so you'll have your chance.

wwweeeeee.
Singing ....
gimmi gimmi gimmi my phone after midnight, plz wont somebody give me there Win Phone 7 away.
Gimmi gimmi gimmi a 5 inch display, duel core and without a delay" =)))
*gaahh*
...i just got to sing again =)
....and they where singing, by by foul fruit goodbye, calld on Jobs but the call got hanged up lost connection somehow...

definately a good sign for microsoft...as of right now the road seems bright
we shall see though...

HD2?
So do I understand it correctly? Even no windows mobile 7 for the HD2? I'd assume that the HD2 does meet the hardware requirements.

msportel77 said:
So do I understand it correctly? Even no windows mobile 7 for the HD2? I'd assume that the HD2 does meet the hardware requerements.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope the HD2 does not have the right hardware buttons. It's probably the only device that may be possible to get ported to WP7 by us here though.

msportel77 said:
So do I understand it correctly? Even no windows mobile 7 for the HD2? I'd assume that the HD2 does meet the hardware requerements.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it doesn't... it has 5 buttons in the front of the device ... not the 3 standart displacement required by MS...

Kloc said:
Here's what I want to see:
1. HTML5
2. Silverlight/Flash in browser (I know flash is planned)
3. Copy/Paste
4. 3rd Party Multitasking
5. Thumb Drive Support even if it's restricted access to what's viewable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I consign all of those things lol.

7.8 Features

So basically what we are going to get is just the "new" start screen? nothing else? like maps powered by nokia, skype integration?

I would love to know too. Almost sold my Lumia already, but I dont know which phone I get instead it. I'll keep it for a while.
Guess we will know in a few days, no one knows it right now.

Paul Thurrott has a write-up about this here:
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windowsphone75/windows-phone-78-preview-143476

Wait.. No multitasking? Nor Skype integrated!?!?

Seems like MS is doing everything to loose these 1-2% of the smartphones market...

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1722502

I wont buy another windows phone anymore! I liked windows phone so much, but microsoft disappoint me with no updates for first generation devices. If the old phones would also get the new kernel, app-compability and skype-integration, then would it be enough. But Microsoft is ****ing stupid and dropps the little amount of windows phone users in only one day!

luizmeme said:
So basically what we are going to get is just the "new" start screen? nothing else? like maps powered by nokia, skype integration?
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I just contacted the WinPhoneSupport:
http://www.twitter.com/WinPhoneSupport/status/215556734205435904
@WinPhoneSupport: @ChrisK91 The only thing announced for 7.8 is the change of the start screen. ^EB
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ruyzalim said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1722502
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It's a stupid marketing bull**** from MS guy... This Belfiore guy wrote:
Windows Phone 8 is a generation shift in technology, which means that it will not run on existing hardware. BUT we care deeply about our existing customers and want to keep their phones fresh, so we’re providing the new Start screen in this new update.
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It's a complete bull****! "shift in technology"... He should try Galaxy S III first!
But the facts are:
- MS just made stupidest decision in a years. Probably next 5 month WP7 sales will fall to 0.
- also, I'm expecting the app developers (as I am) will stop developing new stuff for "outdated" WP7 platform;
- it's a painful blow to manufacturers, especially to Nokia! Who will buy "gorgeous Lumia 900" now if it become outdated old piece of hardware so shortly? Check ebay in few days - Lumia 900 price will be bellow $200...
- and, finally, the most important thing: Microsoft has lost the trust and loyalty of customers. Who will spend money for "brand new" WP8 if next year they will announce WP9?
So, my conclusion: it's a very good time to sell MS stocks right now! Don't wait and risk your money...

freddx said:
I wont buy another windows phone anymore! I liked windows phone so much, but microsoft disappoint me with no updates for first generation devices. If the old phones would also get the new kernel, app-compability and skype-integration, then would it be enough. But Microsoft is ****ing stupid and dropps the little amount of windows phone users in only one day!
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Click to collapse
Calm down... Don't you know what a kernel change means? It's like installing linux over windows on your PC. The OEM would start from scratch, rewrite every driver on the device (cpu, gpu, display, buttons, touch, accelerometer, compass, bluetooth, wlan... And the list goes on forever), that would take about 9 months at least. The OEM would loose more money than it would get.

jessenic said:
Calm down... Don't you know what a kernel change means? It's like installing linux over windows on your PC. The OEM would start from scratch, rewrite every driver on the device (cpu, gpu, display, buttons, touch, accelerometer, compass, bluetooth, wlan... And the list goes on forever), that would take about 9 months at least. The OEM would loose more money than it would get.
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Sorry I was in rage....but an update with more features would be nice The "old" hardware can do more than only a new start screen. Apple even gives a iOS6 lite to the 3Gs and all appstore-apps are compatible...

sensboston said:
It's a stupid marketing bull**** from MS guy... This Belfiore guy wrote:
It's a complete bull****! "shift in technology"... He should try Galaxy S III first!
But the facts are:
- MS just made stupidest decision in a years. Probably next 5 month WP7 sales will fall to 0.
- also, I'm expecting the app developers (as I am) will stop developing new stuff for "outdated" WP7 platform;
- it's a painful blow to manufacturers, especially to Nokia! Who will buy "gorgeous Lumia 900" now if it become outdated old piece of hardware so shortly? Check ebay in few days - Lumia 900 price will be bellow $200...
- and, finally, the most important thing: Microsoft has lost the trust and loyalty of customers. Who will spend money for "brand new" WP8 if next year they will announce WP9?
So, my conclusion: it's a very good time to sell MS stocks right now! Don't wait and risk your money...
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Click to collapse
You shouldn't sell MS stocks right now, because of one developer summit. Of course, there are a lot of disappointed users (including me) about the way MS took. But I don't think that every point in your list is valid. I doubt that WP7 sales will drop to 0. There are a lot of people buying phones based on feel. However I guess the WP7 sales will decrease in the coming months. At least the sales of new expensive devices like the Titan or Lumia 900. I also expect the prices of current handsets to drop over a few days.
Microsofts course could harm Nokia, I totally agree. When they made Nokia Drive available to every device, Nokia lost a unique selling point. One of the reasons why I bought a Lumia 800 was the free navigation. I'm expecting that Nokia's stock will drop even further in the coming days, if there aren't any new announcements that "improve" the current situation.
I also get that developers will target new phones. However how do you develop for Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8? Most likely with C# and the .Net framework. And guess what? You can run .Net based Apps on Windows Phone 7 as well. But at first I was also skeptical about this question and asked it in a Nokia Conversations discussion. The answer of a Nokia employee is attached.
the most important thing: Microsoft has lost the trust and loyalty of customers.
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I totally agree. However they can gain (at least my) trust back by providing not only the new start screen, but other improvements as well. The rumored new notification system comes to mind.
All in all I guess this announcement did not resolve the current update situation. In a nutshell MS stated that WP8 will be based on a new kernel and that this new kernel won't come to existing devices. Most of the new announcements were hardware related. One of the software things is the start screen, and this one is coming in Windows Phone 7.8. Did did not say, that this start screen is the only thing in this update. As stated above, MS should release (and continue releasing) updates that add WP8 functionality to WP7.
jessenic said:
Calm down... Don't you know what a kernel change means? It's like installing linux over windows on your PC. The OEM would start from scratch, rewrite every driver on the device (cpu, gpu, display, buttons, touch, accelerometer, compass, bluetooth, wlan... And the list goes on forever), that would take about 9 months at least. The OEM would loose more money than it would get.
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Well it's of course expensive. But if Microsoft stays coherent with the kernel they could most likely reuse the code in the future. But I think the problem is hardware related. On one side there are the NFC features. Also the SecureBoot can't be integrated (at least AFAIK) only software vise. They have special hardware requirements and current phones don't meet them. Then again, the current CPUs are very fast and can run the Windows Phone 7.8 experience.

Chris, you are optimistic guy (and it's OK!) but I believe we do have more points for pessimism now...
What's happened - it's not a hardware-related but just marketing (read - stupid marketing!) issue. Microsoft is copying Apple's strategy now (probably they planned to sell own MS handsets) but without Steve Jobs magic it's hopeless...
MS public persons explanations - it's a bull****, don't trust 'em! It's like a "4 GB limitation of x86 OS'es" (what is an outrageous lie). I'm 99% sure it's happened because of two reasons:
- they want to "save" (he-he) some money for dropping old handsets support ;
- but the primary reason (I think so): they want to sell their own handsets
Also, unsuccessful WP7 marketing campaign during last two years should open our eyes...
I'd like to be optimistic but...

@sensbottom: let me correct your two mistakes there:
a) 4GB is really limit of 32bit operating systems. PAE requires the applications to support it => almost none do.
b) Supporting another system takes more money than upgrading them to the same one. Long term.

@OndaTer, first of all, I'm sensboston (Boston - it's a city on the East cost of US)
Second, read this: http://www.unawave.de/windows-7-tipps/32-bit-ram-barrier.html?lang=EN You may google for more if you want...
Third, what do you mean by "another system"? What "another" system? WP8 devices will have same CPU (arm) as current handsets; of course, adding support of current handsets should cost some money! But loosing the trust (finally) is much more expensive, you'll see it by the end of this month (even week). Just mark today's MS stock price...

Sorry, I always read it that way
a) Yes, it is called PAE, which is exactly what I wrote. Read it again! It is NOT possible to address >4GB with 32bit addresses. PAE uses 36bit addressing, but the application HAS to be compiled to be able to support the extra space!
b) "It is more money consuming (long term) to work on 7.8 line and 8.0+ line."
// I mean - application itself has only 4GB virtual space. Yes, the rest of the system can move the base of each application and thus use >4GB RAM. But note that also drivers must support it and that's why it is usually targetted at servers and it is disabled on desktops!
// ah I see what you mean - I thought that they removed it after SP2 or SP3 of XP (the issues with driver compatibility with PAE enabled).

sensboston said:
Chris, you are optimistic guy (and it's OK!) but I believe we do have more points for pessimism now...
What's happened - it's not a hardware-related but just marketing (read - stupid marketing!) issue. Microsoft is copying Apple's strategy now (probably they planned to sell own MS handsets) but without Steve Jobs magic it's hopeless...
MS public persons explanations - it's a bull****, don't trust 'em! It's like a "4 GB limitation of x86 OS'es" (what is an outrageous lie). I'm 99% sure it's happened because of two reasons:
- they want to "save" (he-he) some money for dropping old handsets support ;
- but the primary reason (I think so): they want to sell their own handsets
Also, unsuccessful WP7 marketing campaign during last two years should open our eyes...
I'd like to be optimistic but...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, we don't really have a choice here. I cannot return my phone and I have to live with it until 2013. At the moment we should wait what Microsoft announces about the 7.8 update. The Nokia Conversations Post mentioned multiple changes in the Windows Phone 7.8 update. They also reassured that they will stay committed to delivering updates. And it's not like that our phones will suddenly stop to work. Everything will be as integrated as before.

ChrisKringel said:
Well, we don't really have a choice here. I cannot return my phone and I have to live with it until 2013. At the moment we should wait what Microsoft announces about the 7.8 update. The Nokia Conversations Post mentioned multiple changes in the Windows Phone 7.8 update. They also reassured that they will stay committed to delivering updates. And it's not like that our phones will suddenly stop to work. Everything will be as integrated as before.
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THIS!
Im a little annoyed that my titan wont get the full WP8 update but im sure it will still get some new features! they've only shown WP8 once so far at a dev summit and people are saying they are going to sell there phones its mad! also i dont get people complaining that there first gen phones are getting WP8! they will be 2 years old!!! You are getting a update like apple would basically so stop complaining! If you were on android you would be out in the cold with a two year old handset most likely

WP 7.5 lacks a lot of features and we're going to be left out just like that.
This is just great. It's been like 6 months since I bought my phone and it's already outdated. Thank you MS. My phone is now nothing but a brick!

luizmeme said:
WP 7.5 lacks a lot of features and we're going to be left out just like that.
This is just great. It's been like 6 months since I bought my phone and it's already outdated. Thank you MS. My phone is now nothing but a brick!
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ok your getting a WP7.8 update arent you? you dont know what thats going to contain yet! also by the time this comes out your phone will actually be 12 months old almost and oh yes last time i checked the phone isnt suddenly going to stop working is it!