Develop Bugs

Sensitive material: the xda-developers point of view.

Hi Everybody,
We noticed that there is some confusion when it comes to posting sensitive material on xda-developers.com and mostly about what can and can't be posted.
We would like to clarify our point of view through this post.
Since the start of xda-developers this has always been a site that once in while has some sensitive material online, through the years this site has grown so big it's no longer possible to check every file on our servers or every post on the board, we also feel it wouldn't benefit the community if we did.
However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline.
We understand that maintaining the balance between legal and illegal is sometimes confusing and/or difficult but that is unfortunately how it works.
When it comes to posting sensitive material there are a couple suggestions we can make:
- if possible do not post the files on the xda-developers servers.
- use your common sense (if you feel something might not be legal it probably isn't).
- always keep in mind when posting software of any kind, that we will take it offline if there is a legal complaint from the copyright owner.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
I hope this post will serve as a clear and valuable guideline.
Greetz,
Flar
Site admin.
P.s. When you have any questions you can always contact me or one of the moderators.

anyone can contact me also if they have any questions about any files you want to post.. i apparently have no life and spend way to much time on the boards, so you should get a timely response!

I totally agree
It is very important to keep safe a site with so many knowledge and so many resources online. xda-dev and all of its users have done a lot for the community, and I think that if it wasn't for this site, windows mobile devices wouldn't have been so successful.

I agree also. I think you guys do a great job and as members of this family we need to do our part

actually whenever a person types words such as "crack" or "keygen", they should be automatically eliminated or turn into something like "i am a loser".
we've been getting way too much of thieves here recently

I'm still curious about the Dutty Kaiser WM6.1 Rom Link that got removed.
Was that just a link to A rapidshare/megaupload?
Or was that on XDA servers.
Have there been anymore legal complaints about wm6.1 Roms from Kaiser 5.2.19.199 Build now heavily available on many other devices?

need your opinion
hi,
i'm doing this 'directory' for dummies for prophet users.
i made it just because want to make it as easier as it can be to be understand by the beginners.
--> prophet directory for dummies
if you or any other moderators found it is not relevant, do inform PM me.
hoping that this thread can be sticky.
regards..

It's a very tenuous and risky fine line this whole Forum draws when you really look at it.
Every cooked ROM can be looked at as a hack! using proprietory software as its basis.
Every HardSPL can be looked at as a crack! unlocking a device that is specifically locked by a manufacturer.
A keygen is developed as a standalone piece of SW that generates a code that the user decides how he alone will use.
It's all very nice to say HTC "allow" this to happen for developement while not looking anyone directly in the eyes.
Realistically, this site should only contain SW actually and completely written line-by-line by the individual...
We are all guilty in one way or another as everyone here is an accomplice after the fact!

only HTC... ??
An observation ...
This site should be open to other device that HTC.
I had 4 devices HTC, and whenever quality has declined. I believe that the next device will no longer be an HTC.
The manufacturer is rude with its customers (problem of video drivers on Kaiser and Cruise, etc.). HTC does not respond to e-mails. I was a fan of this brand. My next machine will probably be the Samsung SGH-i900 Omnia, which I hope the quality higher than the lasts touchphones HTC ...
It would be really pleasant-XDA Developers focuses on the characteristics of this Samsung Omnia ... and that we produce some new ROM test for this new phone.
But this site is perhaps subsidized by HTC?
Excuse me for my bad English (I only speak french)

well if i may interject myself,
the site should be open to all devices carried that are or will be carried by XDA. Thats the name, and thats how it ought to be. Anachronistic, but elegantly interesting

jeannot61 said:
An observation ...
This site should be open to other device that HTC.
I had 4 devices HTC, and whenever quality has declined. I believe that the next device will no longer be an HTC.
The manufacturer is rude with its customers (problem of video drivers on Kaiser and Cruise, etc.). HTC does not respond to e-mails. I was a fan of this brand. My next machine will probably be the Samsung SGH-i900 Omnia, which I hope the quality higher than the lasts touchphones HTC ...
It would be really pleasant-XDA Developers focuses on the characteristics of this Samsung Omnia ... and that we produce some new ROM test for this new phone.
But this site is perhaps subsidized by HTC?
Excuse me for my bad English (I only speak french)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If HTC Phones where perfect, well there would prolly be less of XDA
But at least Samsung understands what the word Samera Means.
And there is some Unlocking and Cooking going on for a few Non HTC hardware Based phones out there. (Unless i'm wrong and they are HTC hardware base anyway)
But sort of back to the subject.... How about some people selling ROM's made by anyone but themselves on Amazon and whatnot?
That is beyond unsensitive.
If people are doing this. They prolly do this because they can make money of of it.

arent all roms illegal? i mean the phone statment "sorry t be so blatent forgot the actual statment name" but dealing with cellphones the statment, protects people allowing them to return the phones to there original state but not to modify the programing? just wondering probably isnt, hope it was relevant

This thread has aually raised a few questions in my mind.
what is the legality of cooking roms. Obviously cooking an ubuntu mobile rom or an android rom is perfectly legal since that software is under GPL. But my tilt has windows mobile 6 on it with no current upgrade path to winmo 6.1, other than custom cooked roms.
Since at&t has not licsensed winmo6.1 for the tilt yet (or at least hasnt offered it to the public yet) are we basically pirating software it seams likes its the same thing as having a copy of winXP and upgrading with your friends vista disk and a crack.
As far as using SPL cell phone co's have to unlock your phone on request so i dont think theres any issue with that.
I am really looking forward to the new nvidia phones coming out, im hoping they have a big user base like HTC. I must say love my kaiser but its a bit slugish an unfunctional compared to the dell axim i30 i have from 03.

Yes i can imagine as the site has grown it can be harder to keep on top of everything flying around the servers.
Plus with files like you say companies can warn you it it breaches copyright.
I will add again here i am thankful to the mods and members on xda, a very top world website.

Noonski said:
If HTC Phones where perfect, well there would prolly be less of XDA .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry just thought i would point out the spelling mistake, I'll let you edit it.
I have quite good spelling and see some horrible spelling on some websites, not your little spelling mistake but some really bad stuff. I sometimes do the odd mistake more so when i am very tired.

I'm with boorishid on this one
If someone could make this a tab bit clearer to me I would be very appreciative.
Just don't understand where the line is drawn??

In all of the international conventions/treaties as well as demestic laws from various countries regarding the protection of copy rights and intellectual property rights, EXCEPTIONS are always outlined. And always For Educational & Research Puppose is one of the top exceptions.
As far as I understand, Xda-Devs site is mainly a platform for developers to exchange research information. But seems we are lack of DISCLAIMERS to make it clear on nessecary cases.
Certainly 'common sence' is important for every poster to decide what to do.

What I have found out during my stay here is, well basically everything is allowed except cracks / warez.
Anyway M$ knows about this site and has not complained, that means ....

Can chefs add warez / cracks in their ROMs ???
Some how I feel they can!
Check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=531181
Although I don't know whether SPB Mobile shell / coreplayer come as standard package with Hermes or not

Addicted2xda said:
Can chefs add warez / cracks in their ROMs ???
Some how I feel they can!
Check this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=531181
Although I don't know whether SPB Mobile shell / coreplayer come as standard package with Hermes or not
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No,
I've Removed the links and sent a PM.
Dave

Poor community spirit among XDA cooks

I have noticed very poor community spirit amond many man cooks on XDA. For me, a community is about helping each other, and improving each others accomplishments. Many times, when even just trying to extract some manila files from a rom, or even decompilng a carrier rom, it just doesnt work. I presume this is because some cooks around here believe they are gods gift to this board (not community) because they lock roms. I can understand if you lock a program youi custom build, some low level mods, etc, but come on, a carrier rom.
I wanna thanks those who dont partake in this childish acts. If parts are used, then yeah of course the original cook deserves credit, and shall always be given credit. But people always ask why I dont post my roms here, this is why.

A similar topic has already been discussed here

ghettofreeryder said:
I have noticed very poor community spirit amond many man cooks on XDA. For me, a community is about helping each other, and improving each others accomplishments. Many times, when even just trying to extract some manila files from a rom, or even decompilng a carrier rom, it just doesnt work. I presume this is because some cooks around here believe they are gods gift to this board (not community) because they lock roms. I can understand if you lock a program youi custom build, some low level mods, etc, but come on, a carrier rom.
I wanna thanks those who dont partake in this childish acts. If parts are used, then yeah of course the original cook deserves credit, and shall always be given credit. But people always ask why I dont post my roms here, this is why.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally agree, and well said Ghetto!
You'll always find my ROMs unlocked.

Juicy47 said:
Totally agree, and well said Ghetto!
You'll always find my ROMs unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree as well.
I can see it from the cooks point of view in some cases... but common, you know how hard getting a sys and os can be if every rom you find that you may be able to get it from is locked. Getting the HTC rom updates are hard to find third party, and require a gsm handset serial number to download from htc.... which some of us dont have. so, i know my self have had difficulties finding stuff that i used to once be able to find very easily. Im usually pretty quiet here im not here to steal any ones glory some times all we want is a package or a newer camera app ect...

It is all about EGOs. I do not cook but am a software designer for a few decades.
If I went into ROM cooking and somebody took my ROM, added a few things- generally improved it and posted it under his/her name- fair play to them. It would be ideal if they added credits.
I can learn from the successfully modded ROMs some new tricks. If they locked the pimped up code, I would go furious since this is not on the equal terms.
Both things i.e. the credits and locking of ROMs can be dealt with by the moderators of this server but there is either a very little will to do so or the perceived benefits of this approach are too low to outweigh the risks (i.e. developers abandoning this forum)
Strangely most people here would be vivid advocates of the Open Source model yet the first thing which gets promoted is a closed source approach.
I personally believe that it would be a bit of pain to get the unlocked ROM requirement going plus would need more work on the policing side but in the long run it would benefit us all.

You guys make problems out of nothing.
THERE ARE a lot of open roms.
So ok. BUt now there is a cook that wants to present his locked rom.
Why not let him if he wants? Let them choose themselves. JUst don't download it, if its not good for you then leave it instead of continously making points in these topics.

What you will find is that the ROM is undumpable because the rgu and dsm files have been erased and compressed into a single package, thus removing around 200 files from the \Windows directory on your device, less files in \Windows means a faster responce from the file system.
Notice how accessing \Windows takes a longer time than other folders?
Most of the time this is the reason behind removing those files...not to protect a ROM, however we all know there are a minority of users who will palm stuff off as thier own creation which is detremental to the people who do the real work...sure if somebody wants help then they will get it from the majority.....its not about EGO at all.
Do you think olipro charges for his unlocker because of EGO? NO! Its because hes protecting his interests and also deserves recognition for his countless hours of hard work.

They spend their own valuable time making the ROMs so they can do as they please, it's your choice whether or not you install it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I know only two chefs here in the Diamond section protect their ROMs. The chefs who leave their ROMs open are in clear majority.
So, the community spirit seems pretty good to me.

His ROMs are locked, mine are open. Great spirit.

I don't cook roms, but as a linux user I care about Open Source and alike. So I'll post my meaningless 2 cents
Seems like senior members are for locked roms and charging for services, while members and junior members stand on the other side?
For the normal rom user, it doesn't really matter if the rom is locked or not, as long as roms are released. In my opinion though, releasing the roms under a GPL(-ish?) licence would make sure the original cook get the credits. Giving other cooks the possibility to look under the hood on your room, can in fact make it a better rom.
Do you think olipro charges for his unlocker because of EGO? NO! Its because hes protecting his interests and also deserves recognition for his countless hours of hard work
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now this, I strongly disagree on. IMO he would get much more respect if he shared his knowledge freely. There are countless examples of that in the world of GNU/Linux.
I think most ppl using XDA forums expect it to work like a open source community, and when they find out the cooks are protecting their roms and charging for services, they get a dissapointed, and need to whine a little.
Bottom line is, the cooks are free to do whatever they want with their roms. You get to use them freely on your device. You are free to support the cooks you want, so if you don't like locked roms etc...then use a rom from a cook that doesn't lock it.

His ROMs are locked, mine are open. Great spirit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
panosha just sh.. up and dont make me talk here. your only a repacker and stealer. swtos will confirm this. im also a cooker who had the idea leaving cooked roms unlocked. but after seeing people like panosha repack things call it shine on and release it as a own work i lost that philosophie very fast.
his greek roms are partly all stolen by swtos.
my 2 cent
greetings go out to the real cookers like dutty swift swtos and others...

alphazero said:
panosha just sh.. up and dont make me talk here. your only a repacker and stealer. swtos will confirm this. im also a cooker who had the idea leaving cooked roms unlocked. but after seeing people like panosha repack things call it shine on and release it as a own work i lost that philosophie very fast.
his greek roms are partly all stolen by swtos.
my 2 cent
greetings go out to the real cookers like dutty swift swtos and others...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, if you GPL'd it, and he broke the GPL, you could most likely ask the mods to remove his posts/account/rom from this and other forums.

Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
About this Open Source Philosophy:
Open Source is fun and a way to get some work done for specific problems.
I am totally no fighter for Open Source when it comes to developping good applications. Good work needs to get PAYED. One needs to take their TIME to work on it to make it good. Time needs INCOME, one must eat too you know.
I am 100% confident that FREE software will never have the quality of commercial variants, just for that reason.
With Linux the OS is free, but the better distributions are commercial also, and in one or other way 'locked'. Just as with good roms here Only here, we do not have to pay for them. Yet.
Go Open Source, but don't go FREE. Trigger people to get best out of them. Reward them. And let them keep identity.

Riel said:
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
About this Open Source Philosophy:
Open Source is fun and a way to get some work done for specific problems.
I am totally no fighter for Open Source when it comes to developping good applications. Good work needs to get PAYED. One needs to take their TIME to work on it to make it good. Time needs INCOME, one must eat too you know.
I am 100% confident that FREE software will never have the quality of commercial variants, just for that reason.
With Linux the OS is free, but the better distributions are commercial also, and in one or other way 'locked'. Just as with good roms here Only here, we do not have to pay for them. Yet.
Go Open Source, but don't go FREE. Trigger people to get best out of them. Reward them. And let them keep identity.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, lol! you have no idea have you. The BEST distros out there are free! Gentoo! Slack! Debian! C'mon dude
Anyways, yeah, Open Source != free per definition

Riel said:
Alpha, let it be then, why would you care anyway? However, to keep the honour to yourself, don't show PM's
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i would and will never show a private message i recieve here on public.
even if i could choose of hundreds =)
by the way panosha if you feel better i can tell you nearly every chef had that pm of me for wildberry.

Why do the moderators let Aplhazero persist with his insulting posts again and again totally unchecked?? Now he's making an as-yet unfounded allegation against another chef who from what I have seen is very helpful around here. Yet still nothing is done!
I find this bizzare considering Mods are so quick to react and stamp down on so called 'pointless' threads which are far less damaging imho.
Alpha needs to check his ego and stop treating people like they are beneath him.

i have a question, for the people who blame others for stealing and re-releasing under there own work..... how can you tell? i mean, if everything is as openly available as most of the guys seem to think it is. then couldn't they have just got all there stuff from the same source? or is it its not openly available, and the only place they could find it is your rom so you know they have stolen it? Stealing with the intent to take credit for some one elses hard work is not a good thing. but i do believe in sharing.
but if no one shares, that leaves little other options? as time goes by, it looks like things are slowly getting a little bit more closed, pretty soon nothing will be shared. and thats when i worry the community will take a crushing blow.

zaphyr said:
Well, if you GPL'd it, and he broke the GPL, you could most likely ask the mods to remove his posts/account/rom from this and other forums.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you cant GPL something that was basted on stolen software i think.
the base os, sys, anything taken from an HTC rom is stolen. Microsoft doesn't just hand out new sys and os files. and HTC doesn't call us all up when a new oem package is out on a device.
thats just the point i dont get. it the guys who consider them selves real cooks stole it from some where els. why ware they worries about some one stealing a package from them. i can understand if some one took there rom and just changed the version on it and re released it but, that not the idea of most of us ere. and if you can prove some one is a thief expose him to his followers if you can prove it. proof is key to me before pointing the finger.

Cheerz
Nice to read this *****fight. Some are gentleman and some are not. @the end we are all thieves.

Any lawyer's out there. Please read.

Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Now using that same theory if I wright a letter to HTC saying I don't agree to there terms and conditions, than wouldn't they then have to either supply me with a stock Android Rom minus there software, or provide me with a way to remove there software, by either giving me a way to load my own Rom built from source, or give me access to system partition to remove the said software.(see were I am going with this)
Anyway if someone with some legal knowledge could school me a little bit that would be great. Thanks.

Yes this will work. This is great..... FOR ME TO POOP ON!
binny1007 said:
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummm, no? Did you dream this? Does Microsoft sell computers?

Ummm..... that is not true maybe you should not post if have nothing relevant to say, by the way here is some reading for you.
Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund
Now back on topic

Calling in the Suits
Does the Incredible have an EULA on first boot? I am still waiting for mine so I cannot say, but I would assume when you sign up with Verizon, such rights are waved (esp. after the 30-day return period). I would assume the most they would do for you would be similar to Microsoft and give you a rebate in exchange for the device.
However, these are all assumptions on my part. I am friends with a lawyer who used to represent Olga.net (On-line Guitar Archives) when I worked with them. He managed to fend off the NMPA (kind of the music version of the MPAA) and MPA (a sister organization to the RIAA; focuses on publishing rights) for many years. Really the only reason OLGA is not running now is the admin providing the resources was told by his employer that they were no longer going to support the site once the take-down notices started to flood in and the words "possible lawsuit" were whispered.
I'll get in contact with him and post (possibly PM only) his reply, but you might also want to try and get in contact with someone at the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation), as this sounds right up their alley.

Yes on first boot you are asked to accept the EULA.

I think you are out of luck.
The phone is a phone first, a computer second. You can't buy the phone without the OS in it because Verizon won't allow a phone device that has not been approved on their network.
You didn't buy the phone from HTC, you bought it from Verizon. So any dispute with what you purchased is with Verizon, not HTC (Ie you can't buy the phone from HTC direct).
If you don't like Sense UI, don't buy a phone that comes with it. Your recourse which you had from the very beginning was to return the phone.
Not a lawyer...

I love sense but I'm just looking for some options.

I'll give you $1,000,000 if you actually do this. Why? Because it will never happen. No offense, but are you truly serious or are you really really high? Do you think if I bought a video game, I could decline the license agreement and demand they provide me the source code or something? Krelvin is trying to talk some sense into you, so listen to him. Just be patient and wait for root. It will happen soon enough.

Why didn't you just buy a phone with an android os without sense. ??

Verizon will just tell you to **** off. HTC isn't going to give you root access just because you deny the terms of service... Give it a shot though!

Just wait for Root...or return the phone and get a different one.
There, done deal.

binny1007 said:
I love sense but I'm just looking for some options.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just installed Launcher2 from Cyanogen 5.0.7 and said bye bye sense

binny1007 said:
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Now using that same theory if I wright a letter to HTC saying I don't agree to there terms and conditions, than wouldn't they then have to either supply me with a stock Android Rom minus there software, or provide me with a way to remove there software, by either giving me a way to load my own Rom built from source, or give me access to system partition to remove the said software.(see were I am going with this)
Anyway if someone with some legal knowledge could school me a little bit that would be great. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
flash your own rom. nobody stopped you.

Come on guys, give binny a little bit of respect on this, he isn't a n00b to the Android world and he doesn't dislike HTC or Sense, he is just thinking of possible ways for us Incredible users to get root. I did run this by my lawyer friend though and he basically repeated the line a few people have come up with (that it's really Verizon that you would have to deal with and it's highly unlikely that for any reason you would be able to force their hand).
However if you still want to pursue this, I am still recommending the EFF. To start a new "action" you can sign up here.

Didn't mean to come off as such an a-hole as I was kinda irritated that day ahha.
but anyways, if he can accomplish this (which is highly unlikely), I'll give him all kinds of props.
If he's willing to go through with it, by all means do it...but like others have stated, Verizon will most likely be quite unwilling...

DeeBG said:
Come on guys, give binny a little bit of respect on this, he isn't a n00b to the Android world and he doesn't dislike HTC or Sense, he is just thinking of possible ways for us Incredible users to get root. I did run this by my lawyer friend though and he basically repeated the line a few people have come up with (that it's really Verizon that you would have to deal with and it's highly unlikely that for any reason you would be able to force their hand).
However if you still want to pursue this, I am still recommending the EFF. To start a new "action" you can sign up here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not being disrespectful. I am being real. Binny is in dreamland if he thinks this will help/work/not be a waste of time. And no offense, but your lawyer friend didn't do that website much good as they are still shutdown, and if he successfully "fended" anyone off the website would be up and running, not shutdown with a notice about legal issues.

binny1007 said:
Ok I know when you buy a computer and if say you don't want Windows on it and its preinstalled you can deny the terms and conditions, and Microsoft will refund you the amount of money that windows cost.
Now using that same theory if I wright a letter to HTC saying I don't agree to there terms and conditions, than wouldn't they then have to either supply me with a stock Android Rom minus there software, or provide me with a way to remove there software, by either giving me a way to load my own Rom built from source, or give me access to system partition to remove the said software.(see were I am going with this)
Anyway if someone with some legal knowledge could school me a little bit that would be great. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's just that... figure this out before worrying about taking on EULA laws and the like.
there is not there, it is their, as well as than is not than it is then
I'm too uninterested to correct the rest of your grammar.

Thank you so much for correcting my grammar it was soooooo nice of you.
And I will make this clear my complaint would not be with VZW as they had no hand in anything software wise. I'm not going to feed into the trolls here. So please I ask if you have nothing productive to say than don't say it. There are 3 licenses that you are accepting, HTC's, Google's, and the open source licensing, if you accept the two of them and not HTC's than you should still be able to use you phone. That's the point I am trying to make here but thanks to everyone who felt the need to comment on this, and had nothing useful to say.

5377henry said:
It's just that... figure this out before worrying about taking on EULA laws and the like.
there is not there, it is their, as well as than is not than it is then
I'm too uninterested to correct the rest of your grammar.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WOW! your first post just to act like a butt.
seriously whats with all the snarly remarks people? binny asked a very straight forward question. to all those saying "get a different phone" verizon doesn't offer comparable android phone without sense, or "flash you're (thats for you 5377henry) own rom" we don't have root, hence the whole point of the question/thread.
anywho, i did not even know you could do that with windows, thanks for the info binny.
i have a feeling we would attain root before something like this could be played out through htc. i am baffled that they cut the option to go to regular android. not that i hate sense, i just like options...

MrGoodCat said:
WOW! your first post just to act like a butt.
seriously whats with all the snarly remarks people? binny asked a very straight forward question. to all those saying "get a different phone" verizon doesn't offer comparable android phone without sense, or "flash you're (thats for you 5377henry) own rom" we don't have root, hence the whole point of the question/thread.
anywho, i did not even know you could do that with windows, thanks for the info binny.
i have a feeling we would attain root before something like this could be played out through htc. i am baffled that they cut the option to go to regular android. not that i hate sense, i just like options...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lots of people don't know that you can do that with Windows. Witch is why I thought I would ask. I just don't know the legal aspect of it.

Can non-dev's help in getting Root?

What can us mere mortals do to help get root on the Incredible? Is there something that we should be on the watch for? Many of us, although not devs, have varying degrees of sophistication with this technology.
Check refurbished Inc's coming back with special manufacturer only software?
Watch for certain odd behavior on Inc?
Distributed computing crunch of some kind?
Release the email that was sent to me from an insider at VZW on how to root the Incredible (JUST KIDDING! They snail mailed it to me).
Seriously, I don't know what we can do as a group, but I for one would love to help.

The vetting process among the developer community here must be extremely close to the vest.
I have more than 30 years' experience developing applications, including business apps, middleware, communitcations, web, and mobile devices.
I offered a couple devs a couple of possible leads I found while snooping around. And the offers were either ignored or dismissed out of hand. Because I wasn't "anointed", I guess.

paulhoop said:
What can us mere mortals do to help get root on the Incredible? Is there something that we should be on the watch for? Many of us, although not devs, have varying degrees of sophistication with this technology.
Check refurbished Inc's coming back with special manufacturer only software?
Watch for certain odd behavior on Inc?
Distributed computing crunch of some kind?
Release the email that was sent to me from an insider at VZW on how to root the Incredible (JUST KIDDING! They snail mailed it to me).
Seriously, I don't know what we can do as a group, but I for one would love to help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Patience is all us "comoners" can have to help. I'm afraid that there's really nothing in your list that will help.
Ed Zachary said:
The vetting process among the developer community here must be extremely close to the vest.
I have more than 30 years' experience developing applications, including business apps, middleware, communitcations, web, and mobile devices.
I offered a couple devs a couple of possible leads I found while snooping around. And the offers were either ignored or dismissed out of hand. Because I wasn't "anointed", I guess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) Newer Kernel Exploits
Status: ???
2) Zip File Fuzzing (Bootloader overflow)
Status: ???
3) Root Level things running
Status: ???
4) Mount internal storage and modify OS
Status: ???
5) Trick from the Desire
Status: We need a signed ROM from HTC to get that to work.
6) Let's put an image on the SD and see if it will boot that
Status: No. It doesn't work
7) Trick from the Evo
Status: No. The Evo depends on some specific stuff that Incredible doesn't have.
8) Fastboot oem unlock
Status: Everyone and their mom tried, doesn't work
9) Flash a new image
Status: No, you and what root?
10)Shoryuken ptrace() exploit.
Status: No. It's been patched.
All of these and more have been tried multiple times by multiple people. If any of your suggestions are on this list then that is why they were ignored. If you truly think you may have a method with any validity that may get us somewhere then irc.freenode.net, ##incredibleroot is where you'll find some of the unrevoked team and some other talented people. Please don't join and ask about root or progress every 1/2 hour either cause that gets old quick.
You got to understand how locked down these devices are...if we don't get a leaked root rom like the Desire and the Evo (Toast's method, not unrevoked which relies on Sprint native software so it won't work on our inc's) root may take a VERY long time.

SoCalMiles said:
there's really nothing in your list that will help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So not even the leaked mail? haha.
Really my list was just a noob's attempt to ask, didn't really think that any of them were legitimate. I was looking for direction from more powerful beings in what to watch for. i.e. the leaked ROM you mention.
Felt like I needed to offer to help. I hate not being able to contribute.
Do folks think that this will be a cat and mouse game with HTC/VZW kinda like with the EVO and a patch being issued so quickly to close the first root method?

Ed Zachary said:
The vetting process among the developer community here must be extremely close to the vest.
I have more than 30 years' experience developing applications, including business apps, middleware, communitcations, web, and mobile devices.
I offered a couple devs a couple of possible leads I found while snooping around. And the offers were either ignored or dismissed out of hand. Because I wasn't "anointed", I guess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure that wasn't the case (well, depending on who it was... heh). A lot of methods have been tried already and the people coming up and trying new ideas really know the inner-working of the Android platform and how it interacts with the hardware. I could (and have =p) come up with some high-end/low-resource techniques for specific hardware (last worked with the iPhone 3GS/iPod Touch 3rd gen) including AA (almost got up to 4x =p), bit/bump mapping, dynamic lighting and other very boring things to see in code but are pretty looking when used.
Now if someone asked me tomorrow to root those 2 devices, I wouldn't have a clue where to begin. Now your situation may be different, if so don't be discouraged and start posting your ideas here. Now they may still be outright dismissed or ignored, but at least you will get credit for coming up with good ideas =).

SoCalMiles said:
You got to understand how locked down these devices are...if we don't get a leaked root rom like the Desire and the Evo (Toast's method, not unrevoked which relies on Sprint native software so it won't work on our inc's) root may take a VERY long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been wondering about this. Is it possible for a device to be created that is unrootable? Not saying the incredible is but I wonder if it will get to that point or is it like computers where there is no 100% secure computer system and there's always a way to get inside.
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

A smartphone is just a compact computer... I mean the Android OS is even a modified version of Linux, so there will always be ways/methods to crack the device somehow. However without insider information/data (and even sometimes with such data) we are all left on the outside, trying to find a way in that can be easily repeated among a vast userbase.

Idk how many of you had an Eris but the only reason the Eris got root is because some guy claimed to work for HTC and he posted a 2.1 Rom on xda, who knows the incredible may be the same way.
most of us want root but have no idea how to achieve it. I think our best chance is some inside help
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

I want to know how the hell the evo was rooted before it was even released, yet we are still waiting. It would seem us incredible owners are getting shafted. Now all I see is evo evo evo.
-------------------------------------
Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App

Close thread?
Since the Incredible has been rooted; perhaps this thread should be closed.
http://unrevoked.com/rootwiki/doku.php?id=public:adb_in_recovery

Dear HTC, can we have our phone back

Before you start to think I am about to scream "GPL, GPL, GPL," stop for a second, take a deep breath, and sympathize with the thousands of power users and developers who have been left in the dark and/or ignored in regard to their device being partially unlocked with a seeming false advertisement. This is an opinionated piece in the regard of actually getting what we asked for and were promised to receive.
Not long ago, users and developers alike relied heavily on hackers and logic to achieve S-OFF to get the full experience of their desire for a great(er) experience on their Android phone. Some people buy an overlay device like HTC with Sense, Motorola with Blur, and so on, knowing what entails when they get it, but they anticipate running a stock experience or a heavily optimized build from one of the developers in this community. Recently we took a moment to talk with ToastCFH and Dees_Troy from TeamWin, who are responsible for HTC Dumlock. HTC Dumlock makes the unlocked device further accessible for a few more phones.
Last week we purchased some T-Mobile One S units for our developers and one of them was chosen to go for a test drive and to try out HTC Dev Bootloader Unlock. This is where we got to know each other and a bit more about HTC's online utility, which nonetheless has disappointed thousands more than just a bit. I am going to let everyone know now: do not plan on just stopping at rooting this and calling it a day, I tried to remove bloat with Root Explorer and came to a brick wall of denial. I found out you also cannot flash custom kernels in recovery mode.
"What is affected in retrospect when I unlock?" Let me answer that: It actually cripples your phone. It's probably less risky to take a chance and go for an S-OFF method that could potentially brick your device. As per numerous reports, and some insight from ToastCFH and Dees_Troy, there is a plethora of issues with this process and many gripes and speculation just coming from myself.
A cobb without a Kernel: Flashing a kernel is similar to trying out walking on coals. You have to do the following (coming from ToastCFH at XDA):
fastboot boot recovery alternaterecovery.img
Here's some thought: If you flash a crap/test kernel that doesn't boot, not only can you not pull the battery you have to relentlessly use your power button to get yourself out of the mess to get the phone to shut off (HTC One series). The reason you can do it through "booting" recovery as opposed of using the one you flashed: The boot method is actually using the boot/temp partition, which in the end, is not really the boot partition.
HTC, why are you doing this? Aren't you supposed to be trying to deter users from chasing exploits and trying to gain S-OFF? It sure doesn't seem like it. From this perspective, it seems you will be are pissing off and running away potential customers instead. The image you see above is the warning you receive in HBOOT after unlocking the device via HTC Dev. Note that it doesnt say "unlocked" but a very menacing "Tampered," a word that carries a different set of connotations altogether.
All your system are belong to HTC: ROM Manager uses a script to replace your recovery while in Android. The slight issue is, it requires root. Root is the center of the development universe when it comes to ROMs, kernels, mods and the likes of the bunch. HANDS DOWN, most of the alterations you make to your phone while booted in Android utilize root and the system partition. This is not only a P.I.T.A., it can be a deal-breaker. I will get to that point in a bit. First, let's take a look: How do I tinker with something if the manufacturer tells me I can but in reality I can't? Conundrums. It's amazing: You cannot remove the bloat from your phone, you cannot replace the recovery and you sure cannot replace the boot image while booted in Android/Sense.
Radio killed the kernel dev star: Yes, radio. Those cool P*IMG.zip files you flash in HBOOT, that's out the window... Unless you get an RUU (ROM Update Utility) and go back to the stock firmware. With older HTC devices with S-OFF, you could slap a P*IMG.Zip (essentially a firmware/radio update in HTC's update.zip format) on the SD card and boot into HBOOT. It would check and flash it for you. That whole proces is gone; this entire process of being able to do this on the mobile side is now gone. You will now need a computer to flash the file.
To need or not to need... That is the question: Toast brings up another excellent point: If these measures have to be in place (maybe due to carrier request) why not provide the proper documentation to support the device? We're pretty sure when someone unlocks this device they understand they are giving up any firmware support from HTC.
Then why not give us documentation or utilities to flash fimware.zips from recovery like HTC does? When HTC was the proud Nexus device there was full support and documentation available on how to flash firmware on their devices. This made anyone choosing an HTC device blessed with knowing that their device was not only open and unlocked, but when flashing firmware that it was being flashed correctly to Google and HTC's standards. This code has now been moved out of recovery since right before the move to edify scripting and moved to vendor/htc/ (not arguing this choice as thats where it belongs from a maintaining point of view). But the problem is that vendor/htc is proprietary now. Which means Documentation and support for flashing firmware correctly is not available and left to developers of recoveries for the community to figure out. One would think if HTC was standing behind us that they would step up and give us a PROPER/OPEN/REAL unlock, or if they cant for the lame excuse of security concerns, then give us the documentation and utilities to flash the boot and firmware partitions properly. I mean really... what is there to lose there?
- ToastCFH
An excellent point, and most of you will probably agree with his bomb of logic. At the end of the day, he is right; the unlock method is crap and we find it more of a hinderance and crippling intent rather than a compliance to the developer community who has made them the number one development device for so long. Recently Samsung has taken the torch and led its dedicated developers with fulfilled promises and standards.
HTC, why would you do this? That is far too easy. Clarification, reason, justification, etc., it isn't needed. It's about doing the right thing. HTC has kept the proverbial sprinklers on and now the unlock tool is watered down. My advice for the power user/modder/dev is that this tool is essentially useless. We have been the number one spot for developer support by giving free devices to developers and UI designers to make the device even more fun and unique. We will continue to support, drive, and advocate open development on a supposedly open platform and follow those who make it what it is today. With that being said, it makes us skeptical in giving devices to people that HTC seems to have set a navigation route to Failure Avenue, and know that the developer on hand won't feel shorted. HTC, let us own our devices. Some love the hardware, some love the software, but in the end we love Android.
Lastly, GPL. It is is not made to stretch the maximum time available and take your time. It is probably a good suggestion to set up an HTC gitweb or something of the nature to ensure that when the device is available, the developers that you "support" so much can have free reign at improving your device and moving forward at their own pace. That making the final connection to the developer house, letting the user and developer free you from providing software support. Release the source, fully alert and vigilant. We know it takes time to clean code, but the One X (international) community could really use some tasty kernel source code right about now.
One last note: HTC may not be able to further assist with the firmware/software/OS once unlocked, but you can still support your hardware by giving some documentation on how to proceed with an unlocked device. Giving someone a flashlight with no batteries in a dark house isn't an ideal method of answering our call.
Sincerely,
Your Customer.
If you read this, please take a moment and support your developers and modders that enhance your phone life everyday, by tweeting, sharing or posting on Facebook the following quote:
" @HTC we want our phones back! http://tinyw.in/LNSn "
Thanks to everyone who has read and contributed to this piece.
****
My contribution.

I made it about 60% through and I still don't see s-off released. ;p

acer73 said:
Before you start to think I am about to scream "GPL, GPL, GPL," stop for a second, take a deep breath, and sympathize with the thousands of power users and developers who have been left in the dark and/or ignored in regard to their device being partially unlocked with a seeming false advertisement. This is an opinionated piece in the regard of actually getting what we asked for and were promised to receive.
Not long ago, users and developers alike relied heavily on hackers and logic to achieve S-OFF to get the full experience of their desire for a great(er) experience on their Android phone. Some people buy an overlay device like HTC with Sense, Motorola with Blur, and so on, knowing what entails when they get it, but they anticipate running a stock experience or a heavily optimized build from one of the developers in this community. Recently we took a moment to talk with ToastCFH and Dees_Troy from TeamWin, who are responsible for HTC Dumlock. HTC Dumlock makes the unlocked device further accessible for a few more phones.
Last week we purchased some T-Mobile One S units for our developers and one of them was chosen to go for a test drive and to try out HTC Dev Bootloader Unlock. This is where we got to know each other and a bit more about HTC's online utility, which nonetheless has disappointed thousands more than just a bit. I am going to let everyone know now: do not plan on just stopping at rooting this and calling it a day, I tried to remove bloat with Root Explorer and came to a brick wall of denial. I found out you also cannot flash custom kernels in recovery mode.
"What is affected in retrospect when I unlock?" Let me answer that: It actually cripples your phone. It's probably less risky to take a chance and go for an S-OFF method that could potentially brick your device. As per numerous reports, and some insight from ToastCFH and Dees_Troy, there is a plethora of issues with this process and many gripes and speculation just coming from myself.
A cobb without a Kernel: Flashing a kernel is similar to trying out walking on coals. You have to do the following (coming from ToastCFH at XDA):
fastboot boot recovery alternaterecovery.img
Here's some thought: If you flash a crap/test kernel that doesn't boot, not only can you not pull the battery you have to relentlessly use your power button to get yourself out of the mess to get the phone to shut off (HTC One series). The reason you can do it through "booting" recovery as opposed of using the one you flashed: The boot method is actually using the boot/temp partition, which in the end, is not really the boot partition.
HTC, why are you doing this? Aren't you supposed to be trying to deter users from chasing exploits and trying to gain S-OFF? It sure doesn't seem like it. From this perspective, it seems you will be are pissing off and running away potential customers instead. The image you see above is the warning you receive in HBOOT after unlocking the device via HTC Dev. Note that it doesnt say "unlocked" but a very menacing "Tampered," a word that carries a different set of connotations altogether.
All your system are belong to HTC: ROM Manager uses a script to replace your recovery while in Android. The slight issue is, it requires root. Root is the center of the development universe when it comes to ROMs, kernels, mods and the likes of the bunch. HANDS DOWN, most of the alterations you make to your phone while booted in Android utilize root and the system partition. This is not only a P.I.T.A., it can be a deal-breaker. I will get to that point in a bit. First, let's take a look: How do I tinker with something if the manufacturer tells me I can but in reality I can't? Conundrums. It's amazing: You cannot remove the bloat from your phone, you cannot replace the recovery and you sure cannot replace the boot image while booted in Android/Sense.
Radio killed the kernel dev star: Yes, radio. Those cool P*IMG.zip files you flash in HBOOT, that's out the window... Unless you get an RUU (ROM Update Utility) and go back to the stock firmware. With older HTC devices with S-OFF, you could slap a P*IMG.Zip (essentially a firmware/radio update in HTC's update.zip format) on the SD card and boot into HBOOT. It would check and flash it for you. That whole proces is gone; this entire process of being able to do this on the mobile side is now gone. You will now need a computer to flash the file.
To need or not to need... That is the question: Toast brings up another excellent point: If these measures have to be in place (maybe due to carrier request) why not provide the proper documentation to support the device? We're pretty sure when someone unlocks this device they understand they are giving up any firmware support from HTC.
Then why not give us documentation or utilities to flash fimware.zips from recovery like HTC does? When HTC was the proud Nexus device there was full support and documentation available on how to flash firmware on their devices. This made anyone choosing an HTC device blessed with knowing that their device was not only open and unlocked, but when flashing firmware that it was being flashed correctly to Google and HTC's standards. This code has now been moved out of recovery since right before the move to edify scripting and moved to vendor/htc/ (not arguing this choice as thats where it belongs from a maintaining point of view). But the problem is that vendor/htc is proprietary now. Which means Documentation and support for flashing firmware correctly is not available and left to developers of recoveries for the community to figure out. One would think if HTC was standing behind us that they would step up and give us a PROPER/OPEN/REAL unlock, or if they cant for the lame excuse of security concerns, then give us the documentation and utilities to flash the boot and firmware partitions properly. I mean really... what is there to lose there?
- ToastCFH
An excellent point, and most of you will probably agree with his bomb of logic. At the end of the day, he is right; the unlock method is crap and we find it more of a hinderance and crippling intent rather than a compliance to the developer community who has made them the number one development device for so long. Recently Samsung has taken the torch and led its dedicated developers with fulfilled promises and standards.
HTC, why would you do this? That is far too easy. Clarification, reason, justification, etc., it isn't needed. It's about doing the right thing. HTC has kept the proverbial sprinklers on and now the unlock tool is watered down. My advice for the power user/modder/dev is that this tool is essentially useless. We have been the number one spot for developer support by giving free devices to developers and UI designers to make the device even more fun and unique. We will continue to support, drive, and advocate open development on a supposedly open platform and follow those who make it what it is today. With that being said, it makes us skeptical in giving devices to people that HTC seems to have set a navigation route to Failure Avenue, and know that the developer on hand won't feel shorted. HTC, let us own our devices. Some love the hardware, some love the software, but in the end we love Android.
Lastly, GPL. It is is not made to stretch the maximum time available and take your time. It is probably a good suggestion to set up an HTC gitweb or something of the nature to ensure that when the device is available, the developers that you "support" so much can have free reign at improving your device and moving forward at their own pace. That making the final connection to the developer house, letting the user and developer free you from providing software support. Release the source, fully alert and vigilant. We know it takes time to clean code, but the One X (international) community could really use some tasty kernel source code right about now.
One last note: HTC may not be able to further assist with the firmware/software/OS once unlocked, but you can still support your hardware by giving some documentation on how to proceed with an unlocked device. Giving someone a flashlight with no batteries in a dark house isn't an ideal method of answering our call.
Sincerely,
Your Customer.
If you read this, please take a moment and support your developers and modders that enhance your phone life everyday, by tweeting, sharing or posting on Facebook the following quote:
" @HTC we want our phones back! http://tinyw.in/LNSn "
Thanks to everyone who has read and contributed to this piece.
****
My contribution.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Done
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using Tapatalk

Done

I would share it but its got to many bad grammatical mistakes that makes its a hard read plus doesn't specifically request things like S-OFF. The sentiment surely is right though.