I'm kind of angry that HTC chooses to do this I mean after all we all purchased this phone therefor we should have the right to do as we please with it, correct?Sure its not really getting anything done on the rooting scene but the least we can do is tell them we're dissatisfied with their closed approach to Android.
http://twitter.com/htc
http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc_bymail.aspx
HTC Headquarters
23 Hsin Hua Rd., Taoyuan 330,
Taiwan, R. O. C.
Tel: +886-3-3753252
Fax: +886-3-3753251
I assume its due to new apps such as: netflix, hulu, move rentals and other apps that require a lockdown. I don't think HTC would like to see their hard work (HTC Sense) on other devices lowering the need for upgrades: example, the two Incredibles if you install sense 2.0 or skyraider 4.0 the need for Incredible 2 lowers quite a bit. I plan on jumping on Incredible 2 just because of its design. It is exactly what I wanted in the first Incredible. I'm all up more for unlocked HTC phones
I sent them an email and got the following response...
Thank you for your feedback regarding the Incredible 2. Unfortunately I do not have information about whether the bootloader is locked or how it can be customized to allow you to install a custom ROM. Because we focus on supporting the software included on the device and assisting users with free technical support we are only able to support the aspects of the device as they are developed by ourselves and your carrier, in this case Verizon.
That said, however, we do value your feedback. You will see an invitation to provide our company with recorded, documented feedback in the signature of my email to you. The ratings at the top are your opportunity to rate my response to you and then there is a comment section that allows you to make your opinions known to HTC itself, rather than to simply the representative who corresponds with you. I would encourage you to submit your opinion there as well, even if you just copy and paste most of your initial email to us.
We track this feedback and it does make a difference in our product decisions. If it turns out the bootloader is locked down with a secure key or other method, your feedback using the survey system may convince the powers that be to change this in a future update.
In regard to your inquiry regarding an API for the Sense interface, any application or widget targeted for Android should work in HTC Sense, so you should be able to use the Android APIs for your development purposes and this will also allow your application to work on phones that do not run HTC Sense, such as competitor phones or even some of our devices like the G2. That said, there are additional resources where you can get information about developing on HTC and Android devices:
http://www.htcmobilitynow.com/ This is a site that allows you to request to partner with us for application development or suggest a business opportunity, if you would like.
http://developer.htc.com/ This URL contains kernel and GPL-covered source code for our devices. Source is generally published within 90 days of a product release but it normally does not take that long.
To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Sincerely,
Douglas
HTC
Want to see what others are saying? Have a question to ask other HTC fans?
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Pretty much just seems like a regular copy paste brush off response.
HTC has some very good reasons for locking devices down, and I don't blame them at all. Their setup is very nice for the average consumer.
I support OEMs locking their hardware in general, however I also support (and am active in) unlocking them. What they really need to do is find a workable solution, like enabling oem unlock.
tylerch said:
I'm kind of angry that HTC chooses to do this I mean after all we all purchased this phone therefor we should have the right to do as we please with it, correct?Sure its not really getting anything done on the rooting scene but the least we can do is tell them we're dissatisfied with their closed approach to Android.
http://twitter.com/htc
http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc_bymail.aspx
HTC Headquarters
23 Hsin Hua Rd., Taoyuan 330,
Taiwan, R. O. C.
Tel: +886-3-3753252
Fax: +886-3-3753251
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have seen a lot of boilerplate brush-offs in my life, and while that HTC rep wasn't able to help get anything done in some concrete form, the letter was not based on a template. Sure they were 2 or 3 paragraphs that sounded stock, but I am guessing (and was very surprised considering what I have seen from HTC on other occasions) that the letter took a longer than average amount of time to write... I do not think it would not be considered a brush off.
And it makes sense... If there is any industry right now which is being carefully watched because of the world's acknowledged impact of it on an individual's daily life, both professional and personal, it is mobile communication and the development thereof. There is an extraordinary amount of money to be made and lost here. HTC is a newcomer through good fortune and I doubt anyone expected them to be sitting next to motorola, samsung, LG, etc. 3 years ago. In this age of social media where 4000 people complaining on a Facebook page can change a corporate policy, HTC is not ignoring any group. And not one with the power we have.
Look at T-Mobile, while I still think their customer device is mediocre, as third place carrier, I have noticed a distinct catering to the "enthusiast" segment of android. Now this doesn't mean they are going to have every phone released sporting a wide open OS like the G1, but their phones are relatively easy to root (wake up Motorola!), and the caliber of their phones (design, cutting edge technology like dual core) is far and away better than the other carriers out there.
I am starting to ramble, but my point is this is a crucial time in an area that we happen to be a big part of. If you don't think the manufacturers or the carriers are keeping a close eye on this board's membership, or the number of people served by CM7, your wrong.. We have the power to turn the carriers and the manufacturers future business plans on their ear. (With early attempts at a "kitchen"... man, that had to make them tremble a bit.) And this enthusiast market is only going to snowball, even if not for true enthusiasts, then for all the people that just want someone to root and re-theme their phone. Trust me, they care.
EDIT: Bottom line, the OP is making a smart suggestion.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
I certainly expected them to be sitting were they are 3 years ago. 5 years ago, no. Hadn't heard of them yet.
Also that was not a stock brush off. Everytime I've contacted HTC I've been happily surprised with their answers. She told you what we need to do to change it so let's do it!
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
I agree with jcase that manufacturers and service providers have legitimate reasons for the locking of their respective devices.
One being the protection of their oem software as stated. Another is fraudulent device returns for devices bricked or otherwise rendered inoperable by something done at root level. Lastly the hot topic of rooted tethering and wifi hot spot which are paid services.
So that being said set aside your anger and look at it from their point of view.
I am a rooted user who takes full advantage of my devices potential. I hope that there is a solution in the not too distant future that will both protect the manufacturers and providers interests yet give us the option to modify our devices as we see fit.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
Why not just do what computer manufacturers have done for years? Have a recovery procedure. Or what the nook color did and always boot first off the sd card. Half of the reason that bricking occurs is as a result of circumventing the security. If there was a way to always boot off an sd card people could always restore it. No more bricked phones.. and everyone is happy.
Sent from my ADR6350 using XDA App
Are you guys serious? HTC has been around for ages (1997) theyre one of the pioneers in pda/smartphone and touchscreen technology. First windows pda, first windows based phone, first 3g cdma smartphone, first android smartphone and first 4g smartphone. They've been innovative when LG and Moto thought the razr and shine were bleeding edge lol. I had NO doubt they would have a seat upon high. ;-)
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
efaden said:
Why not just do what computer manufacturers have done for years? Have a recovery procedure. Or what the nook color did and always boot first off the sd card. Half of the reason that bricking occurs is as a result of circumventing the security. If there was a way to always boot off an sd card people could always restore it. No more bricked phones.. and everyone is happy.
Sent from my ADR6350 using XDA App
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HTC already does this, but many of us are dicking with the bootloader, which handles this. Once you mess with the bootloader, the possibility of bricking is very real.
Locking down the bootloader was Verizon's idea. Not HTC's. They would rather sell them unlocked. Only the carrier wants them locked. Just think about it and you will see why the manufacturers are forced to do so. There is no point contacting HTC. Please send such emails to Verizon. Please do bug HTC to sell unlocked boot loader devices on the net.
Sent from my thunderbolt
HTC first did this on a non carrier branded phone first. The whole "it is Verizon" argument is silly, it is a reaction to the industry and carriers as a whole.
Don't blame Verizon solely, HTC wants this.
Sent from my LG Revolution
jcase said:
HTC first did this on a non carrier branded phone first. The whole "it is Verizon" argument is silly, it is a reaction to the industry and carriers as a whole.
Don't blame Verizon solely, HTC wants this.
Sent from my LG Revolution
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I agree. It would make sense if the only locked ones were the VZW branded, etc.... but unbranded phones are also locked.
efaden said:
I agree. It would make sense if the only locked ones were the VZW branded, etc.... but unbranded phones are also locked.
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the incS has XTC support, and touchpro hooked raskal up with his verizon inc2 so lets pray we get support for the inc2!!!
jcase said:
HTC first did this on a non carrier branded phone first. The whole "it is Verizon" argument is silly, it is a reaction to the industry and carriers as a whole.
Don't blame Verizon solely, HTC wants this.
Sent from my LG Revolution
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Click to collapse
Actually the difficulties with rooting has not been carrier specific. In fact, the troubles started with the myTouch Slide on T-Mobile then the G2 on T-Mobile and now the Incredible 2 on Verizon, the Evo Shift on Sprint, and the Thunderbolt on Verizon.
Seems like this is more HTC than the specific carrier to me.
This is good news. HTC is reviewing their bootloader policy:
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-were-reviewing-our-bootloader-policy
Hopefully they'll let us unlock the bootloaders of phones they already released, like the Inc S and Inc 2.
finitybeyond said:
This is good news. HTC is reviewing their bootloader policy:
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-were-reviewing-our-bootloader-policy
Hopefully they'll let us unlock the bootloaders of phones they already released, like the Inc S and Inc 2.
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Was just about to post this! I hope they let us unlock the bootloaders.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk
And who says Facebook, Twitter, and other social media is completely useless
LowFire82 said:
And who says Facebook, Twitter, and other social media is completely useless
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Found this on the HTC Facebook page..
"There has been overwhelmingly customer feedback that people want access to open bootloaders on HTC phones. I want you to know that we've listened. Today, I'm confirming we will no longer be locking the bootloaders on our devices. Thanks for your passion, support and patience," Peter Chou, CEO of HTC
Hell yea I was just about to post that as well! I hope this means they will provide means to unlock currently locked phones.
Related
After contacting HTC regarding FroYo, I was told that the decision whether or not to offer it for devices is based on how they are weighing up the impacts on user experience.
As far as I am aware, FroYo will offer extreme performance improvements over previous builds, and I fail to see how it could negatively impact this.
As for Desire and FroYo, they did of course totally avoid the question and gave no specific response relating to the Desire in any way, nor did they confirm that they will offer it for any devices at all, merely that it is being
"considered" for "some devices" according to the impact "user experience".
As the title suggests, this is not about "if" or "when" but about what exactly they think could be affected in terms of "user experience".
'Introducing the new HTC User Exprience: Sense'
DarkMio said:
'Introducing the new HTC User Exprience: Sense'
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I don't htink they were directly to sense. The rep I spoke to mentoned sense, but mentioned this in a different context. I think maybe they may have meant performance wise, once they integrate sense, will the phones really be able to handle FroYo.
alias_neo said:
I don't htink they were directly to sense. The rep I spoke to mentoned sense, but mentioned this in a different context. I think maybe they may have meant performance wise, once they integrate sense, will the phones really be able to handle FroYo.
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Click to collapse
Obviously, Froyo would even run faster on a G1, because Froyo is just faster.
I think this means they'll thjnkk about upgrading for 6 months - then announce a delay.
I really shouldn't try to read too much into anything that HTC say about this.
Google's own devs have already gone on record to say that it is technically possible for a G1 to run Froyo (see here), but you can be almost 100% certain that there will never be an "official" port.
By being deliberately noncommittal, HTC can avoid accusations of reneging on promises, because they've thus far promised nothing.
Personally, I think it is reasonably certain that we will see Froyo on the Desire and the Legend in the relatively near future (I'm thinking end of August time frame).
I seriously doubt that any of their earlier phones will get an official update to Froyo, and that includes the Hero even though it is very similar hardware wise to the Legend.
Regards,
Dave
I think that HTC cannot loose their chance against Apple.
They cannot screw things up - Evo 4G flagship at Sprint probably will be the first with Froyo - otherwise people start buying iPhone 4G (seems Sprint is going to sell iPhone as well).
HTC Poland recently put their account on the facebook - they didn't expected that users will be with so negative feedback about their support and speed of software releases. I am not sure if such activities HTC did in other places, but phone market now is growing rapidly and if their dont release updates soon enough people like me will get Apple again
masi0 said:
I think that HTC cannot loose their chance against Apple.
They cannot screw things up - Evo 4G flagship at Sprint probably will be the first with Froyo - otherwise people start buying iPhone 4G (seems Sprint is going to sell iPhone as well).
HTC Poland recently put their account on the facebook - they didn't expected that users will be with so negative feedback about their support and speed of software releases. I am not sure if such activities HTC did in other places, but phone market now is growing rapidly and if their dont release updates soon enough people like me will get Apple again
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Click to collapse
Well, the lady I spoke to said they have "learned" a lot from the updates they have released recently and will carry this forward when releasing future updates. As for apple, nothing, and I mean nothing, on this earth would make me go back to apple.
why is this in the development section? You have three other areas to post this in besides development!
1wayjonny said:
why is this in the development section? You have three other areas to post this in besides development!
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Click to collapse
My bad, as I'm always developing or looking at development my bookmarks take me straight to dev section, I had entirely forgotten about the others.
MODS: Any change you could move this to general please?
I think you will almost certainly find that the "4G" in the iPhone 4G refers to the fact that it is the 4th iteration of the iPhone - not that it works on a 4G network.
Regards,
Dave
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Sent from my secret underground base, buried deep under a glacier in Iceland (the shop, not the country)
Dont apologise mate i thought your thread was interesting and informative
Dont appease these random trolls that think they moderate these forums! Let the mods do the moderating and we will do the grazing hahaha
The guy was a twat, he came on the thread where we are trying to port Froyo and said the same thing that this isnt a dev topic I mean it that isnt dev, then i will give up computers
Total waste of space!!!
JD
foxmeister said:
I think you will almost certainly find that the "4G" in the iPhone 4G refers to the fact that it is the 4th iteration of the iPhone - not that it works on a 4G network.
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You reckon?
Was there any evidence for this in the various tear downs that have popped up over the last month or so?
Suppose it would make sense from a business point of view. The world (and Europe in particular) isn't exactly overflowing with 4G networks right now.
While i dont always agree with what HTC say on this issue they do have a point with Froyo. If they launched an update tomorrow all hell would break loose. Half the apps in the market dont work with froyo right now, and people would happily swap out their SD card without realising it might mean they loose some apps that have moved.
The Nexus one is not the same beast, it is sold as a test bed in effect and users should expect issues, the Desire is a consumer device for the masses. HTC NEED to wait until the early issues are fixed otherwise they would be overwhelmed with support calls.
rovex said:
While i dont always agree with what HTC say on this issue they do have a point with Froyo. If they launched an update tomorrow all hell would break loose. Half the apps in the market dont work with froyo right now, and people would happily swap out their SD card without realising it might mean they loose some apps that have moved.
The Nexus one is not the same beast, it is sold as a test bed in effect and users should expect issues, the Desire is a consumer device for the masses. HTC NEED to wait until the early issues are fixed otherwise they would be overwhelmed with support calls.
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Click to collapse
I agree in part, but I don't think Google are trying to market the Nexus as a dev phone. I know it is, but unlike the G1 they want it to be a competing consumer device.
I see what you mean now about the FroYo problems, but, not everybody frequent these forums as we do, the solution woul dbe a simple instruction list with the update, saying moving apps to your SD card would of course mean they're not available if you remove it. And I thought apps were restricted in visibility to OS version? I know my hero couldn't see half the new stuff when it was on 1.5.
Still, you make a valid point, just as a Computer Scientist and Electronic Engineer, I refuse to accept these as valid excuses on HTCs part.
I'v seen smaller teams do harder work with better results, in less time using fewer resources.
seriously ... sense isnt that good why cant htc jsut put there apps on the market .... and give ppl stock 2.2 and the choice
Not a very well worded post, but I kinda agree. I'd like the option of not having some of the apps. Things like Friendstream and Peep just aren't as good as the alternatives out there.
It'd be great if the Sense UI and apps were installed, but they sold the apps on the Market (obviously providing them free of charge with phones), and allowed the option of uninstalling them.
Sure everyone has choice, if you don't like the sense UI, you can choose nexus one, or MOTO, or Samsung, or LG, or whatever... what I don't understand is why people buy HTC phones, if they don't like sense UI in the first place. I don't think HTC can force you to do so, hehe
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Sent by winx199 via his HTC Desire
I had the option of getting a Nexus or Desire, and opted for the Desire mainly because it meant paying less per month. Since I'm a student until the Summer, and don't have a job to go into yet, this was a big factor.
I was also (wrongly) under the impression that you could switch Sense off if needed, as was shown on pre-release models.
You can easily disable the sense home. I currently run both helix launcher and sense and can choose which when I press home or set a default. As for sense/no sense, I think for me, it makes my Android phones. Couldn't live without it, even with the great launchers out there.
-------------------------------------
Alias::NeO on HTC Desire
So one of Microsoft's big features for WP7 over WM is that OS updates can be sent out directly by MS to all models, eliminating the previous delays from device manufacturers and operators. The great benefit here is not only for all users getting access to all new OS features, but a really important aspect is limiting fragmentation of the platform for developers. I.e. Developers don't need the huge hassle of trying to support all types of hardware and OS to get the highest number of users for their app. This is what killed Windows Mobile, and ultimately is going to kill Android if you read the story about Angry Birds.
So how about a vote? Do you think that Microsoft will hold up to the promise that they will release the OS updates to all WP7 hardware at the same time?
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
markgamber said:
Will they? Who knows. But if they don't they will have effectively abandoned the smartphone market permanently because the number of people left who would believe a word they say about anything wouldn't be enough to sustain a small tech company. I can't imagine Microsoft is that stupid but they did abandon it once already.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wasn't once, Sidekick anyone?
I think that they will update all the devices at the same time and I think that all of the new WP7 devices have a good amount of sales and so they should update all of them.
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
blahism said:
I don't think you will see updates all at the same time, i think you will see them based upon carriers and headsets but "Around" the same time. I don't think MS would want to push an update all at once unless its just a core update and doesn't impact carrier requirements or device specific issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
indiekiduk said:
I think you raised 2 interesting points there. Say there is a device specific issue, does the manufacturer submit that to MS for inclusion in an update to that particular device? What if they don't bother? What if MS make a new feature in the OS that requires a new driver from the device manufacturer? If they don't bother then its deadlock, and in that case this situation is no better than with Windows Mobile of leaving all updates to the manufacturer. Personally I think MS are in big trouble here if they haven't thought this through completely...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If an OEM wants to push a device-specific update, they submit it to Microsoft and Microsoft will push it out after approval (the carrier may need to approve as well). Microsoft, of course, could potentially fix this themselves if the OEM refuses to fix it but I can't imagine that happening.
Microsoft has developed a vast majority of the drivers. Again, I just can't see Microsoft making a new feature that...
1. Relies on a driver and/or...
2. The driver isn't written by MS
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
If you consider how HTC does it, they add their custom features in an app. HTC has wanted to incorporate Sense into their WP7 offerings. But MS has not allowed it. Instead they compensate by adding Sense-like features to the HTC Hub. I believe this is the extent of any customization among various handset makers.
RustyGrom said:
They've thought this through pretty well. Some more explanation of the timing and carrier approval can be found here.
http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2010...-and-carriers-ability-to-block-those-updates/
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Click to collapse
So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
indiekiduk said:
So Paul Thurrott says that (to prevent fragmentation) if an operator/handset manufacturer blocks their devices from an OS update then they can't blog the next one and it's automatically sent out. That sounds absolutely mental!
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Click to collapse
I agree that it's definitely a bit strange. But let's just see how this works out in practice. In theory Android can get updates super fast and in theory the carriers can block iPhone updates. Microsoft is still controlling the process, not the OEMs or carriers. The carriers understandably don't want to run untested code on their networks. Microsoft is giving them the option to delay/block. If they abuse it, Microsoft could just give them the middle finger and release them directly. It sounds like the carriers are going to play ball. The ones that don't will certainly get a bad rap and could lose customers over it.
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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Click to collapse
Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
adesonic said:
We certainly do not want the mess that is the Android update process, with Google, the Carriers and the OEM's all having a say in when updates go out!
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Click to collapse
That's the kind of crap that killed WinMo for me. Three times with three different phones I ran into the problem of video "tearing". Three times I emailed Microsoft support, HTC support and AT&T support about the problem and three times they were all content to point fingers at each other. Microsoft says it was a problem with HTC's drivers. HTC says it was a problem with the carrier not approving whatever updates and AT&T says if you want to solve the problem buy this new phone. And I did that twice to find the latest and greatest had the same problem, no one actually did anything. What was worse was finding updates on HTC's site that I couldn't apply to my phone because they were tied to particular carriers and my carrier, of course, wasn't one of them. The worst kind of planned obsolescence. That was when I said the hell with WinMo and bought an iPhone and all that garbage went away. When it had a problem, I went to Apple. Period. Updates came from Apple. Period. And they've only recently stopped updating the original iPhone after how long? Apple cut out the carrier for a reason and has set the bar that Microsoft should at least have the decency to meet if not exceed if they expect to be taken seriously.
vetvito said:
Ugh no, Google phones get the update first and fast. As of right now Google has only one phone.
Its all the other Android phones that have this problem with OEMs, and carriers.
WP7 will be just like the Nexus One. All WP7 devices will get updated regardless of carriers. If your carrier wont allow the OTA update then just connect to Zune.
I also think the updates will be regional.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree things were safer for users with the Nexus one, but they've stopped selling it now for whatever reason. I'd love to find out why they decided to do that because that model was a major advantage. All new Android users are going to hit this issue which is what killed WinMo as stated by markgamber.
Also you can't really say what will happen with WP7 because it remains to be seen what will actually happen when its update time. Actually it won't be until the 2nd update we'll find out if people with the old models are screwed over. It'll actually be less of a big deal if Microsoft take 1 year between OS updates because most users will want new hardware anyway, however it could still be a major disaster if manufacturers blame MS for pushing out an untested OS upgrade that breaks thousands of phones. I expect there will be some exemption like hardware of over 2 years old does not get upgrades from MS, that would get them off the hook slightly.
I agree that Apple is great for the consumer, if there is any problem Apple fix it, they control the whole experience, anything you buy on the app store will work on hardware up to 2 years old. However for developers its not such a great picture. The app store just breaks even, Apple aren't interested in app developers being successful, they only built the app store because jailbreaks were doing it anyway, previously they only planned for javascript web apps, and if anyone tries to do anything innovative outside the restrictions of the SDK their app gets banned and they get threatened their developer account will be cancelled. However there was a some money to be made by some lucky people, and everyone else made at least more than building windows mobile apps in the old days. Anyway Apple make all their money from the hardware they don't need to make money from some 3rd party dev making a good app. Google also don't care about developers, the market place is terrible and its widely known that devs with apps on both platforms get like 0.3% of their sales on Android. But as with Apple, Google don't care about the developers either. With Android, Google attract phone manufacturers by offering an OS for free, which they used to need to pay MS $30 per license or whatever. And by having tons of phones out there, Google make a ton of cash from the ads in the built in apps google search, and google maps. They have no need to support developers, and if the platform becomes fragmented they don't care because as long as they sell more phones they make more money.
It remains to be seen what the point of the WP7 marketplace is to MS. My friend has the #1 shooter app and sells 1 a day so MS will be running the store at a loss. And if they need to give WP7 away for free to compete with Android for traction there really is no hope.
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
bowpay said:
You guys bring up some really great points. I am starting to think that the reason Apple stayed with At&t had something to do with updates.
To hopefully add on to this great discussion I think that the US carrier market is in for a real change soon. Every day I see prices coming down and carriers having more and more of the same features. Once carriers are handing out the exact same features it might not be that big of a deal to have MS release all updates. Other countries are way more competitive with their carrier choices and I think US will have to evolve because users demand it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just a bit of a correction:
iPhone stayed with AT&T on the domestic market, it is deployed across various providers on the international market.
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
Regardless of how it is made available I have heard that an update including copy /paste will be ready end Jan...
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a good point.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
robart76 said:
To be honest I'm very curious about the update process. It's not true that all WP7 devices have got the same features. At the moment I've got HTC Trophy on Vodafone and HTC HD7 on O2. The same system but different search providers in IE, different regional keyboards available, different system languages, different settings for adding email accounts etc.. So it seems like every phone has carrier specific rom and I believe carriers would like to keep it that way. It looks like current roms are miles away from one unified rom as we see on iPhone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only thing that matters is that a given program runs on all WP7 phones equally. That's where Apple currently excels and why Android has been called "fragmented". What they look like and what programs are included with a given phone on a given carrier don't matter.
Visit Groubal and sign the petition: http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
Retweet: http://twitter.com/#!/ibproud/status/52265679990169600
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/unlockmoto
UPDATE (14th June 2011):
We are now over the 10,000 mark.
I have now spoken with Motorola and gotten confirmation that Motorola plan to unlock every device that will get an update in the second half of this year. This will include maintenance & firmware updates, but is still subject to Carrier approval.
The promising sign is that Verizon has already allowed Motorola to unlock a device on their network, the Xoom, which utilizes the unlockable/re-lockable model that Motorola intends on using across their devices.
I'm still looking to work with Motorola in the coming months to help see if we can make this a smooth process for Motorola and the community.
You can read the article here:
http://ausdroid.net/2011/06/14/an-u...witter&utm_campaign=Feed:+ausdroid+(Ausdroid)
Please share this where you can and keep it alive. I will continue to work with Motorola to see if we can get this thing torn wide open.
UPDATE (26th April 2011):
We are now at ~8,700 mark.
Motorola has now responded to me, stating that they are looking at unlocking bootloaders across their devices late 2011.
The article for the story can be found here:
http://ausdroid.net/2011/04/26/the-little-aussie-taking-on-motorola-u-s/#more-8184
We're still seeking clarity around whether this will be for current devices or only future devices.
I couldn't have gotten this far without the support of everyone here. You guys and girls have been a huge support and help me turn this snowball into a wrecking ball.
Please share this where you can and keep it alive. I will continue to work with Motorola to see if we can get this thing torn wide open.
Previous Update (4th April 2011):
We are now at ~7600 mark.
We're starting to slow down from our initial boom, so I have now set up a Facebook page to see if we can wrangle in some supporters that don't use Twitter or XDA.
I will need your help getting this out there. So share the facebook page where you can.
I'm also looking to see if anyone is interested in helping me Moderate the page. Please PM if you are.
Original Post:
Hi All,
I have created a Groubal (online petition) to get a response from Motorola on it's bootloader policy.
>>This petition started for the Atrix, but I made sure that it was for Motorola's overall Bootloader Policy. I have reached 200 signatures in 2 weeks, but now believe it's time to expand this out of the Atrix space and into the larger Motorola Dev community.
Just signed the petition.
It could be me but non of your links work
How could you sign the petiton dedraks?
spamnco said:
It could be me but non of your links work
How could you sign the petiton dedraks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the heads up on that. I'll be more careful when copying and pasting links.
Let's try this:
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
spamnco said:
It could be me but non of your links work
How could you sign the petiton dedraks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use this shor link: http://4by.in/4
Not that it'll make any difference but your petition is more likely to be taken seriously if comments like that of 'rich fraley' weren't included.
Signed, at length...
Step666 said:
Not that it'll make any difference but your petition is more likely to be taken seriously if comments like that of 'rich fraley' weren't included.
Signed, at length...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, agreed. I tried seeing if I could at least censor the comment, but no dice.
Thanks for you're support guys. I've always been a big fan of the saying "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
Famous idea. You got the sign.
i have signed
Not to kill the cause... but the issue isnt really with motorola... Isnt it with the service providers who would rather have the bootloaders on the phones locked so they can sell us services we could install for free... ie Wi-fi Calling, Tethering..
I think Motorola's hands are tied.. their customers are the service providers.
Would it make more sense to harass t-mobile and the likes over this?
Signed as well.
ketonkss4 said:
Not to kill the cause... but the issue isnt really with motorola... Isnt it with the service providers who would rather have the bootloaders on the phones locked so they can sell us services we could install for free... ie Wi-fi Calling, Tethering..
I think Motorola's hands are tied.. their customers are the service providers.
Would it make more sense to harass t-mobile and the likes over this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On all phones that have locked and encrypted bootloaders, I don't think there's been one that couldn't be rooted. Once rooted, you have access to all the Tethering and WiFi Calling apps out there. So it could be the case, but all unlocking the bootloader does is let you use custom kernels that form the base of alternative roms. So bloatware be damned, it can removed fairly quickly and without even touching the bootloader.
It would be more for warranty claims, that's why the padlock picture on the very first screen's the way to go. That way if a phone is damaged due to modification, the carrier/manufacturer can turn you away due to voided warranty.
signed the partition to
i am looking into the legal side of the locked bootloader to see if theirs any loop holes in locking a phone when the manufacture is part of the open handset alliance
but i think the fastest way of the bootloader being unencrypted is to put up a cash reward for the person that unlocks it.
maybe if we can raise £1000 it might spur someone on to go the extra mile
ketonkss4 said:
Not to kill the cause... but the issue isnt really with motorola... Isnt it with the service providers who would rather have the bootloaders on the phones locked so they can sell us services we could install for free... ie Wi-fi Calling, Tethering..
I think Motorola's hands are tied.. their customers are the service providers.
Would it make more sense to harass t-mobile and the likes over this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So why is my unlocked/un-branded Defy that is in no way tied to any network also cursed with a locked bootloader?
And if the networks are demanding it, how come not every manufacturer is crippling their handsets in this way?
This is a decision Motorola have made, no-one else.
#UnlockMoto
Thanks :-D
You can also join the #UnlockMoto campain and spread the word on social media networks like Twitter as well as on modding forums and such.
Start by joining the #UnlockMoto Campain for Motorola Unlocked Bootloaders! here: http://twb.ly/UnlockMoto.
Then read: http://bit.ly/UnlockMotoPage
done, signed
signed!!!
Just signed.
adlx.xda said:
Thanks :-D
You can also join the #UnlockMoto campain and spread the word on social media networks like Twitter as well as on modding forums and such.
Start by joining the #UnlockMoto Campain for Motorola Unlocked Bootloaders! here: http://twb.ly/UnlockMoto.
Then read: http://bit.ly/UnlockMotoPage
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for posting dude, i've been sending out a tweet for the 2 causes.
Retweet:
http://twitter.com/#!/ibproud/status/50306686350655488
The DMCA want to make it illegal for us to root or jailbreak phones, tablets and gaming consoles. If this happens then we lose the ability to customize, fix bugs, and correct security issues on our devices that we pay money for. Xda developers will go away , and so will software innovation. Think about what we will lose Cyanogenmod, Miui, Juggernaut, Beastmod all of it gone and so will the money developers make selling root apps on the market this is important. If you think this is silly tell Steve Kondik AKA cyanogen hes the one who brought this to light for many people.
the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF)
https://www.eff.org/pages/jailbreaking-not-crime-tell-copyright-office-free-your-devices
Do some homework before blowing this off this is serious! Device manufacturers claim Root/jailbreaking violates Section 1201 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which carries stiff penalties.
Are you seriously concerned about this? They can't stop us, and if ever we need to send our devices back we just return to stock...simple as that.
Yes, they can't stop us. But the current position on rooting and jailbreaking is only a temporary exemption from the DMCA. This exemption needs to be periodically renewed or it will expire and we will be subject to he DMCA which makes it easy to argue we are breaking the law. That alone would probably have a chilling effect on the rooting communities as the unofficial support from manufacturers dries up. I doubt Samsung will openly support a community perceived as breaking the law.
That said... yes, we need to speak up and help the larger rooting/jailbreaking community to renew this exemption. If we don't speak up, it will die and the FTC will not renew the exemption.
iLeopard said:
Are you seriously concerned about this? They can't stop us, and if ever we need to send our devices back we just return to stock...simple as that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well the question really is if providers have the ability to accurately see what your phone is running and will they be forced to block our service if the DMCA threatens to sue the actual companies.
The real concern here isn’t about our ability to root/jail break our OWN devices or not. It’s about control! These scumbags along with the a**holes that support SOPA and PIPA simply want to keep us in check so they can shove their BS down our throats for the price of whatever they want.
If this happens then no one would ever upgrade phones and the market would take a big hit. We true rooter would aways stay on old phones to keep root.
xile6 said:
If this happens then no one would ever upgrade phones and the market would take a big hit. We true rooter would aways stay on old phones to keep root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd rather have a 100% stock sII than a modded up g1
anyway if google and the manufacturers want us not to root they will remove the ability to let us.
Smartphones = computers. Its legal to do whatever you want with a computer so long as you do not commit cyber crime.
Desktop pc -> laptop -> notebook -> netbook -> tablet -> smartphone
All these devices are the same... the only difference between them is the size & spec. They are all essentially computers.
If you don't support this by educating yourself and then registering your comments with the US Copyright Office within the next 8 days, like the Software Freedom Law Center has, what do you think will eventually happen to websites like xdadevelopers? Making jailbreaking/rooting illegal would apply to all instances, on devices both old and new. So you would be liable if you used such a device, (although it would be difficult to catch everyone), disseminated information on how to do this to your device, (goodbye all websites that help folks root), or sold services or software that helped someone root their device.
And tri4life's comments are accurate. With these kinds of laws in place, service providers would want, or may be forced to, develop systems which could tell if your smartphone is rooted and then turn off service, and likely put you into a queue for a visit from an "RIAA type" lawsuit. BTW, the "lock-in AppStore you can't change the OS" model is coming to personal computers as well. So not only is this a stand against this behavior on the smartphone front, but also in case this starts to creep into the PC world, as well. The Software Freedom Law Center comments go into some interesting details on this.
If you don't think it's serious than you should actually read the law that's in question here. For fun, you can skip down to the end where it describes the civil and criminal penalties that apply if the exemption is not in place. So not only do we need to support this strongly now, we need to work to make this exemption permanent.
Good Luck..
jordanishere said:
Smartphones = computers. Its legal to do whatever you want with a computer so long as you do not commit cyber crime.
Desktop pc -> laptop -> notebook -> netbook -> tablet -> smartphone
All these devices are the same... the only difference between them is the size & spec. They are all essentially computers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not entirely true. Some parts of all those devices might contain firmware that is copyrighted and encrypted. The DMCA would make it illegal to circumvent that firmware encryption. The only reason it's legal right now is because of the FTC exemption who ruled it's OK if we're not breaking any IP copyrights.
IMHO, SOPA/PIPA are all expansions on this kind of heavy handed lawmaking and is driven by the RIAA and MPAA. They've been going after 8 year olds and grandmothers just because they'll probably settle and pony up even tho they didn't do anything wrong. But don't misunderstand me. Piracy of IP is a big issue and should be dealt with but siphoning granny's bank accounts and making it illegal to mod your devices is not the way to do it.
We should be asking why we still need these laws if they can still go for an off-shore target like MegaUpload. I think they already have the tools they need and should stop legislating what I do with and to my technology. The scary thing is SOPA/PIPA are NOT DEAD... just tabled for now. I'd bet (not much) that once it's out of our recent memory they'll pass it so fast it'll be law before we can even fight it.
All this recent laws worry me more and more that we are loosing what so many fought and die for over the decades, it's being forgotten that it is By the People for the People not By the People for a few.
"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
Patrick Henry
why in the world would android continue to be open source then? as Well, HTC allows rooting of devices pretty easily, As well as samsung has their new open to the public Dev programs, so their probably gonna follow HTC with open rooting. I really doubt Android phone manufacturer's will let it go on for very long if it did end up being illegal. Why else does anyone else buy android phones? I think they know that.
xile6 said:
If this happens then no one would ever upgrade phones and the market would take a big hit. We true rooter would aways stay on old phones to keep root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sammy has been kicking out Android phones with unlocked boot loaders from the get go (IN YOUR FACE HTC), so rooting and customizing is almost a given from the manufacturer, but not from the carriers. If it becomes illegal, then it becomes a slippery slope for all of us!
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
lawalty said:
Sammy has been kicking out Android phones with unlocked boot loaders from the get go (IN YOUR FACE HTC), so rooting and customizing is almost a given from the manufacturer, but not from the carriers. If it becomes illegal, then it becomes a slippery slope for all of us!
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/26/dmca-update-makes-new-phone-unlocking-illegal/
This makes me really sad... thanks op for bringing this up to attention. Not being able to root an Android device sucks a lot of fun outta it all.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
It was just ruled that it is not illegal to Jailbreak an iphone, tablets may be a different story though. I haven't heard anything regarding android devices.. I would assume it falls under the same category.. Either way it's not gonna stop anyone from doing it
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda premium
"Every generation needs a new revolution" -Thomas Jefferson
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Here is a guide for those who may be confused:
Rooting/Jailbreaking:
Smartphones - YES
Tablets - NO
Unlocking
If your phone was purchased prior to January 2013 - YES
New Phone - NO
Phones purchased after January 2013 can be unlocked with carrier's permission
Unrelated:
Blind people can now use DRM stripping software to enable read-allowed function on eBooks purchased legally. However, to supply blind people with the software necessary to do so violates the "trafficking" provision under the rule, and is illegal.
What is not clear....
Carrier unlocking or bootloader unlocking...
Sent from my SGH-I747 using xda premium
Carrier unlocking will be illegal, unless carrier approval.
C. Wireless telephone handsets – interoperability with alternative
networks
Computer programs, in the form of firmware or software, that
enable a wireless telephone handset originally acquired from
the operator of a wireless telecommunications network or
retailer no later than ninety days after the effective date of this
exemption to connect to a different wireless
telecommunications network, if the operator of the wireless
communications network to which the handset is locked has
failed to unlock it within a reasonable period of time following
a request by the owner of the wireless telephone handset, and
when circumvention is initiated by the owner, an individual
consumer, who is also the owner of the copy of the computer
program in such wireless telephone handset, solely in order to
connect to a different wireless telecommunications network,
and such access to the network is authorized by the operator of
the network.
Bootloaders fall under the purview of jailbreak/root:
B. Wireless telephone handsets – software interoperability
Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to
execute lawfully obtained software applications, where
circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling
interoperability of such applications with computer programs
on the telephone handset.
sdlopez83 said:
What is not clear....
Carrier unlocking or bootloader unlocking...
Sent from my SGH-I747 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC can give a generic response to a single user, but can they do the same to 1000s of users?
I think not. It's time to tell them what we think as a group.
We, the undersigned, are formally requesting that HTC consider extending end users the ability to turn on/off the platform security on their phones (S-OFF) preferably through a method that also permits full access to the phone's software partitions (For example: "APX/NvFlash" mode on the Tegra platform). This would be a further development on the current "Bootloader Unlock" being provided on the domain htcdev.com for certain devices. Such a feature, if granted would greatly ameliorate the esteem developers and non-developer users have for HTC for its relationship with its customers.
Collectively, we also wish to make it clear that we acknowledge the risks involved with such a feature and understand that HTC is not liable for any faults caused through software modifications carried out by the end user. HTC reserves the right to refuse warranty repair on this basis providing sufficient evidence of user-induced damage is present. We are requesting that if HTC are to respond positively to this feature request that they would also make it clear that within the terms of their limited warranty and with the statutory rights of the consumer undisturbed they will not invalidate the limited warranty for instances of faults clearly arising from manufacturing errors. We would also request that any such statement would be clear in its terms without resorting to ambiguous terminology such as "may".
We also wish to state that we are aware of HTC's carrier agreements which may make such a feature impossible to implement on customised devices sold by certain carriers. With this in mind, we wish to make it clear that we are requesting such privileges only for devices that are sold as "sim-free" or by carriers who do not actively oppose such features.
Sincerely,
The undersigned customers of HTC
View signatories here: http://goo.gl/9a1pzhttp://goo.gl/uSkOg
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Give your support here.
For those concerned about how this will work, once we reach a sufficient number of signatories I will send a secure copy of the signatory list (With the serial numbers de-obfuscated for authentication) to HTC.
Add the link to your signatures and spread it far and wide. The more of us there are, the louder we are.
This isn't only for the One X. It's for all owners of HTC devices running Android. Spread the link far and wide.
I'm pretty sure they already know that thousands, possibly millions, of people want s-off. They just don't care.
That's the point.
They know it and they can ignore it because no one attempts to contact them. If one person asks for S-OFF they'll reel off the usual generic nonsense about security. If a few thousand ask for S-OFF they'll have to give something a bit more substantial.
they have made their decision already. im letting someone buy mine next week when i have pics and a different phone. good luck with that though.
Have you locked out the spreadsheet?
SB13X said:
Have you locked out the spreadsheet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah. For security concerns. There's a HTML page that updates every 5 minutes with selected fields from the spreadsheet. The link is actually:
http://goo.gl/9a1pz
I've changed the OP to reflect that.
Thanks just making sure it was still going Going to get my Desire and Desire HD owning brothers to register tomorrow and link back to here added to my signature
HTC will not give us S-OFF, they have customers as well, and those customers (telecoms) don't want their users to have too much freedom. This includes access to the radio partition, allowing users to unlock handsets freely. This topic is a waste of time.
Rekoil said:
HTC will not give us S-OFF, they have customers as well, and those customers (telecoms) don't want their users to have too much freedom. This includes access to the radio partition, allowing users to unlock handsets freely. This topic is a waste of time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People can already unlock their phones for a pittance (€5-10) online. Buying an unlock code is much easier for the average person to do and use than turning off their phone's platform security.
If you think this topic is a waste of time, I recommend you follow your advice and stop wasting your time and go do something else like complain.
I'd sign, but don't want to list my serial number as I don't want HTC to void my warranty.
Sentinel196 said:
I'd sign, but don't want to list my serial number as I don't want HTC to void my warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would they void your warranty for just making a feature request? Especially considering your serial number won't have been entered on htcdev.com
@ OP
Would you like your petition signed by number of people or number of devices?
Since there might be alot of people with multiple HTC devices and serials to spare, that might give a higher count.
People. But... that said, if you have more than one device just type in their serial numbers separated by a space or comma e.t.c.
At the end of the petition, i'll count the serial numbers and tally the number of devices and then send a list of names and the petition to HTC. If they ask for authentication of the signatures, i'll give them the list of serial numbers (Without any names attached).
abc27 said:
People. But... that said, if you have more than one device just type in their serial numbers separated by a space or comma e.t.c.
At the end of the petition, i'll count the serial numbers and tally the number of devices and then send a list of names and the petition to HTC. If they ask for authentication of the signatures, i'll give them the list of serial numbers (Without any names attached).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, too late for that now, already signed with my One X. Got 4 more HTC devices tho, so your choice, I can pm you my name so you can delete me and I resign or I can add them to my GF, when she signs up.
Sent from my rooted HTC Quadcore Beast
Emmure said:
Right, too late for that now, already signed with my One X. Got 4 more HTC devices tho, so your choice, I can pm you my name so you can delete me and I resign or I can add them to my GF, when she signs up.
Sent from my rooted HTC Quadcore Beast
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Add them with your GF. Handiest solution.
I submitted and should of typed my full name, oh well I provided enough information. I saw someone accidently used their email address in the model textbox, haha. Thanks for creating this petition, I just posted on HTC's official Facebook wall regarding HTC One X s-off and emailed them on their website.
TS just wanted to be famous, he got no friends in real life
??
Got my name down :beer:
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
That sucks that HTC still locking boot loaders & no s-off the!!! The only way to really make them listen is don't buy there devices!!! Or Motorola device just get a Nexus or a Samsung device!! Sammy does lock down there phones like the others bring your phones back & either get a G-Nex, Galaxy S3 or wait for the New Nexus coming out in like 6 months with Jellybean goodness!! :thumbup:
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using xda premium