Update to Jelly Bean via ODIN - Samsung Galaxy Nexus

i just wonder is there any ODIN software version that can flash the new JB update. here's my phone information :
BASEBAND : I9250XXLA2 , BUILD NUMBER: IMM76K.19250XWLD2.Android version: 4.0.4 . I used to go to www.sammobile.com for samsung firmware update and flash using ODIN for my previous android galaxy phone, but i cant find any version of ODIN that works to flash the JB. anybody have the answer? thanks in advance.

No one has packaged it up for Odin yet, because there hasn't been a need. We have a Nexus device, which means that we can use fastboot, which is just as easy as Odin, but safer than Odin.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Like Efrant said, use Fastboot. Don't mess with Odin there's no need.

thanks..how safe is using fastboot? does it involve command prompt? because im really not good at that. can you give me link and simplify info so i may use that method to update my nexus. thanks in advance

gothickah0 said:
thanks..how safe is using fastboot? does it involve command prompt? because im really not good at that. can you give me link and simplify info so i may use that method to update my nexus. thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Use the toolkit to root and unlock boot loader. Install CWM or TWRP. After that, everything else is easy. Plenty of videos on YouTube as well that can help you.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium

gothickah0 said:
thanks..how safe is using fastboot? does it involve command prompt? because im really not good at that. can you give me link and simplify info so i may use that method to update my nexus. thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it requires the command line. Its extremely safe if you're capable of looking at a guide and copy/pasting commands.
mackster248 said:
Use the toolkit to root and unlock boot loader. Install CWM or TWRP. After that, everything else is easy. Plenty of videos on YouTube as well that can help you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, stop recommending toolkits please.

gothickah0 said:
thanks..how safe is using fastboot? does it involve command prompt? because im really not good at that. can you give me link and simplify info so i may use that method to update my nexus. thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Follow the steps in the "flash" link in my signature to flash takju imm76i, then follow the steps in the update" link to go to 4.1.1 from 4.0.4.
It may seem complicated, but it is really not.
I don't recommend using a toolkit -- you won't likely learn anything at all.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

thanks guys. i will try to use the command line 1st. and if its too confusing,i will use the toolkit. so i have to root my nexus 1st and install custom boot recovery? which means the download mode will be replaced by other custom boot recovery? if i do that, will my phone receive OTA via google next time? or do i have to recover back to its original state? im so noob at this..

thanks efrant i have click link given. it really helped. i will follow the steps. i would press 1000x thanks button for both of you guys but it seems that i can't..lol

And you all wrong, Odin package is available
But not at sammobile but at xda. I've downloaded the package but never used it. Easily done using fast boot commands.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1586807

gothickah0 said:
thanks..how safe is using fastboot? does it involve command prompt? because im really not good at that. can you give me link and simplify info so i may use that method to update my nexus. thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
fastboot is the standard way of flashing for Nexus devices, it can be considered safer than ODIN, the instruction is in the sticky of this Q&A section.

atifsh said:
And you all wrong, Odin package is available
But not at sammobile but at xda. I've downloaded the package but never used it. Easily done using fast boot commands.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1586807
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
efrant : i dont understand flash method 2 number 6..how do you open cmd in same folder? thanks in advance
aftish : is that method as easy as usual? ( one pakage install)? thanks in advance

gothickah0 said:
efrant : i dont understand flash method 2 number 6..how do you open cmd in same folder? thanks in advance
aftish : is that method as easy as usual? ( one pakage install)? thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't used it. I wanted to learn ADB and it seems pretty easy.
But its from chainfire so its gonna be safe, just read the thread.

atifsh said:
And you all wrong, Odin package is available
But not at sammobile but at xda. I've downloaded the package but never used it. Easily done using fast boot commands.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1586807
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He was asking for a Jelly Bean re-pack, not an ICS repack...
gothickah0 said:
efrant : i dont understand flash method 2 number 6..how do you open cmd in same folder? thanks in advance
aftish : is that method as easy as usual? ( one pakage install)? thanks in advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Open the folder, right-click in the folder and select "Open Command Prompt Here" or what ever it is. Or just go to Start->Run and type cmd.exe in the box. Then navigate to your directory by typing cd name-of-directory. For example, if your files are in C:\junk, type cd junk
The prompt should then be C:\junk

efrant said:
He was asking for a Jelly Bean re-pack, not an ICS repack...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My bad!

what if i right click the .img file and open it with cmd and type the command. does it work? and one more thing, once i have install cwm do i have to update the cwm if google release android update? thanks

download the file from here and it 100% WORK :http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=30089044#post30089044

Related

where has fastboot gone?

hi guys!
I'm completely new to the forum but I didn't find the introduction section like in other forums, so sorry if I first didn't present myself there!
I just got a galaxy nexus and I'm using a mac.
I was able to unlock it and now I would like to root it in order to install the Android Revolution HD ROM and all over the web the developer team says to root the phone using fastboot. The problem is that all the links redirect to the modaco page with the first actual link and this takes you to a filesonic page which is down for the moment...
I guess this is caused by the recent sopa and pipa...
What am I supposed to do? is there any other way to download it?
every rooting guide I found talks of using fastboot...
thanks!
Do you have the android sdk installed?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Pretty sure those links have been down for a while.. check the dev section for other ways to root.
El Daddy said:
Do you have the android sdk installed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I do, why?
joshnichols189 said:
Pretty sure those links have been down for a while.. check the dev section for other ways to root.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But since the developers say that you ned a gnex rooted with fast boot I thought I had to use that method in order to use their rom. So I can use any Method I want to root it?
If you've unlocked the bootloader then you have already used fastboot so just use the fastboot commands to flash CWM and then use that to flash the root package. Get the latest Superuser package from here:
http://goo-inside.me/superuser/Superuser-3.0.7-efghi-signed.zip
mrc87 said:
But since the developers say that you ned a gnex rooted with fast boot I thought I had to use that method in order to use their rom. So I can use any Method I want to root it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fastboot is not a program you should download. It is the menu that appears wat your GN when you start up your phone with Volume up + Volume Down + Power button. You should however download the appropriate files for unlocking and rooting etc. See other threads on what those files are...
If you installed the android sdk then it should be in the platform tools folder.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Ok thanks guys I'll give it a try when I get home!

ota update issue

Hi guys I'm trying to get my nexus updated to JB. I am on 4.0.4 rooted using the toolkit. I have flashed stock recovery back to the phone using toolkit. I'm getting the attached error. Any ideas anyone?
Thanks
step 1) STOP USING A TOOLKIT!
step 2) http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895
corkie1 said:
Hi guys I'm trying to get my nexus updated to JB. I am on 4.0.4 rooted using the toolkit. I have flashed stock recovery back to the phone using toolkit. I'm getting the attached error. Any ideas anyone?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well first of all, I definitely don't recommend you using toolkit. Using it has higher chance of bricking your phone.
It seems like you might have to boot into the clockworkmod recovery and from there, flash the zip. It's faster than the way and also doesn't give you those kind of headache
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using xda app-developers app
Hi guys when I say toolkit its the specific gnex toolkit. I thought this was a well received method for rooting - no?
Are you sure you flashed the right stock recovery for your phone?
Ya definitely flashed right stock recovery. It's very easy using the toolkit.
corkie1 said:
Ya definitely flashed right stock recovery. It's very easy using the toolkit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so is fastboot
fastboot flash recovery nameofrecovery.img
I've used the toolkits and fastboot on 3 different gnex's and not had problems either way. If you fastboot incorrectly as well it's possible to brick your phone right?
wisniphi said:
I've used the toolkits and fastboot on 3 different gnex's and not had problems either way. If you fastboot incorrectly as well it's possible to brick your phone right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well yeah if you fastboot the wrong recovery, but if you typo the command, it errors and wont flash it.
The OTA failed not because of your recovery but because of /system/usr/keylayout/generic.kl not being stock or missing.
You can either find that file and push it back and then run the OTA hoping that's the only file you modified.
Or flash the stock JB image following the link Zepius posted in the 2nd post.
I used this thread to help me update to JB when the OTA wasn't showing up for me (I was impatient).
wisniphi said:
[snip]
If you fastboot incorrectly as well it's possible to brick your phone right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope. Odin yes. Fastboot no.
OP: And as El Daddy said you (or one of your root apps) prob changed something related to your keyboard, so you need to replace that file with the stock one.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
I can't agree more! This is literally the third straight post I've read with an issue that started with 'I'm rooted using X toolkit...'
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
El Daddy said:
The OTA failed not because of your recovery but because of /system/usr/keylayout/generic.kl not being stock or missing.
You can either find that file and push it back and then run the OTA hoping that's the only file you modified.
Or flash the stock JB image following the link Zepius posted in the 2nd post.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hiya - thanks - I browsed to the location and found a generic.kl.bac file - renamed this rebooted and the OTA went through no problems

[Q] Help to fix my phone

I used a video to unroot my phone and now it will not come out of boot mode, I turn it on it acts like it is booting up but never does just stays in the same position. and when I try to go into fastboot mode I get an error, it shows an android laying down and a red triangle over him how do I fix this? PLEASE HELP
follow this exactly as its written: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895
I will try this, but I am not sure that the computer is reading the phone, I can get odin to work but it is not helping I tried putting stock files using odin but same thing. when i tried cmd and fastboot devices it brings up nothing
when I plug my phone in my computer does not recognize it, now what do I do?
Zepius said:
follow this exactly as its written: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
did everthing step by step, I am able to see the device in my device manager, but when I get to the part where I put it in bootloader and and type fastboot devices it does not recognize it. any suggestions?
pamelak38 said:
did everthing step by step, I am able to see the device in my device manager, but when I get to the part where I put it in bootloader and and type fastboot devices it does not recognize it. any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to install the fastboot driver.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Petrovski80 said:
You need to install the fastboot driver.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cannot turn my phone on to put it on usb debugging, could this be my problem? and how do I install fastboot driver I thought I had it with sdk tools
pamelak38 said:
I cannot turn my phone on to put it on usb debugging, could this be my problem? and how do I install fastboot driver I thought I had it with sdk tools
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you are booted into bootloader but a "fastboot devices" does not list your device, it's almost always caused by having installed either no driver at all or the wrong one. Use the naked driver, follow the link in my signature to find it.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Petrovski80 said:
When you are booted into bootloader but a "fastboot devices" does not list your device, it's almost always caused by having installed either no driver at all or the wrong one. Use the naked driver, follow the link in my signature to find it.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok I got it up and running! My only concern is I did every step but the radio step failed every time, is this a problem?????
THANK YOU SO MUCH, I HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM THIS!!
pamelak38 said:
Ok I got it up and running! My only concern is I did every step but the radio step failed every time, is this a problem?????
THANK YOU SO MUCH, I HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM THIS!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lte radio? Anyway if your connection is ok I'd say it's not an issue.
Good you figured it out.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
still cant get into recovery mode
can anyone help, I got the phone back to where I can get into it, but if I try to go into recovery mode I still get the dead android with the red triangle and can anyone tell me where to find a lte radio
pamelak38 said:
can anyone help, I got the phone back to where I can get into it, but if I try to go into recovery mode I still get the dead android with the red triangle and can anyone tell me where to find a lte radio
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you see is the stock recovery. Android will flash it back automatically even after you've flashed a custom recovery. To prevent this, you must either rename/delete /etc/install-recovery.sh OR rename/delete /system/recovery-from-boot.p.
LTE radios are in the factory images. Read this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895
Petrovski80 said:
What you see is the stock recovery. Android will flash it back automatically even after you've flashed a custom recovery. To prevent this, you must either rename/delete /etc/install-recovery.sh OR rename/delete /system/recovery-from-boot.p.
LTE radios are in the factory images. Read this: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1626895
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I have never had to rename/delete,ect before, can you help walk me thru that, I know I am asking a lot but I would sure appreciate it
pamelak38 said:
Ok, I have never had to rename/delete,ect before, can you help walk me thru that, I know I am asking a lot but I would sure appreciate it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have root? In that case it's a matter of launching your file manager.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Petrovski80 said:
Do you have root? In that case it's a matter of launching your file manager.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I have root, now what do I need to do?
pamelak38 said:
Yes I have root, now what do I need to do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Navigate to the folder /etc with a file manager. Remount with RW rights (root explorer has a convenient button for this) and rename the file install-recovery.sh to install-recovery.sh.bak.
Then reflash a custom recovery. This time it will stick.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Petrovski80 said:
Navigate to the folder /etc with a file manager. Remount with RW rights (root explorer has a convenient button for this) and rename the file install-recovery.sh to install-recovery.sh.bak.
Then reflash a custom recovery. This time it will stick.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got it back to stock and locked, THANK YOU so much you are awesome!!!!

Returning to stock using a Mac.

Can someone please let me know how to do this. i have search everywhere and no one says anything. they only provide a link but it does not provide step by step nor links to do this. my Gnex is unlocked but not rooted. I would like to go back to stock so that i can update to JB. Thank you in advance.
colomob said:
Can someone please let me know how to do this. i have search everywhere and no one says anything. they only provide a link but it does not provide step by step nor links to do this. my Gnex is unlocked but not rooted. I would like to go back to stock so that i can update to JB. Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if you're only unlocked, and not rooted, have custom recovery/ROM or anything, you are completely stock. Just unlocked bootloader... OTA has nothing to do with unlocking bootloader. Also root doesn't stop OTAs. Just FYI... Only flashing custom ROM, custom kernel or custom recovery or a change to a system partition stops the OTA.
kyokeun1234 said:
Well if you're only unlocked, and not rooted, have custom recovery/ROM or anything, you are completely stock. Just unlocked bootloader... OTA has nothing to do with unlocking bootloader. Also root doesn't stop OTAs. Just FYI... Only flashing custom ROM, custom kernel or custom recovery or a change to a system partition stops the OTA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and thats where my problem comes. i cant find a stock rom. im on a custom rom.
colomob said:
and thats where my problem comes. i cant find a stock rom. im on a custom rom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ohhh ok... But you're not rooted? Strange...
Anyways, here is the link. Whenever efrant tells you to either "fastboot" or "adb", just put ./ in front of it. That's the command for Mac and Linus
kyokeun1234 said:
Ohhh ok... But you're not rooted? Strange...
Anyways, here is the link. Whenever efrant tells you to either "fastboot" or "adb", just put ./ in front of it. That's the command for Mac and Linus
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i found that way but im an idiot i guess. i read it and re read it and i dont understand it.. :/
any way someone can simplify that and post it here?
colomob said:
i found that way but im an idiot i guess. i read it and re read it and i dont understand it.. :/
any way someone can simplify that and post it here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
what are the parts you dont understand?
that will guide you through flashing an official google factory image. you on gsm? yakju or takju, your choice. cdma? only vzw gnex is supported.
Sent from my i9250
bk201doesntexist said:
what are the parts you dont understand?
that will guide you through flashing an official google factory image. you on gsm? yakju or takju, your choice. cdma? only vzw gnex is supported.
Sent from my i9250
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im on sprint..
anyways i believe i have everything that the guide asks to have, including the ADB and fastboot for mac. i downloaded the update that he asks to get. i have boot.img, bootloader.img,radio-cdma.img, radio-lte.img, recovery.img and system.img....
or anyone have the stock Rom i can flash and ether flash the update or get it OTA???
colomob said:
anyways i believe i have everything that the guide asks to have, including the ADB and fastboot for mac. i downloaded the update that he asks to get. i have boot.img, bootloader.img,radio-cdma.img, radio-lte.img, recovery.img and system.img....
or anyone have the stock Rom i can flash and ether flash the update or get it OTA???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you can use that guide for toroplus (i.e., Sprint) devices as well if you have the images. But since you don't have the userdata image (and therefore you skip that step), you may need to boot CWM and wipe /data and /cache, but only if you experience a bootloop.
So in recovery I have to flash each image? That's the part I don't get.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
colomob said:
So in recovery I have to flash each image? That's the part I don't get.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You cannot flash image files on any recoveries. You need to do those in fastboot mode using command prompt.
colomob said:
So in recovery I have to flash each image? That's the part I don't get.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not at all what I said.
Follow the guide. But for the userdata image (which you don't have), boot into recovery and wipe data.
I finally did it!! If anyone needs help let me know. PM me.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app

how to root pixel xl easy?

Hey guys I want to root my new pixel xl ,I update my pixel ota ,I tried rooting my pixel with chainfire method but my phone went into a bootloop..is there a easy way to do this??
I need a guide on how to do it from scratch btw my bootloader is unlocked..thanks guys!
ronnyking35 said:
Hey guys I want to root my new pixel xl ,I update my pixel ota ,I tried rooting my pixel with chainfire method but my phone went into a bootloop..is there a easy way to do this??
I need a guide on how to do it from scratch btw my bootloader is unlocked..thanks guys!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel-xl/development/root-supersu-t3490156/post69368660
Just a thought?
Sent from my Google Pixel XL using XDA Labs
I was hoping like video or something anyway you think I can do it with the skipsoft toolkit?
ronnyking35 said:
I was hoping like video or something anyway you think I can do it with the skipsoft toolkit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see why not, I prefer to do it myself but the feature of rooting is within the tool kit so you can give it a go!
Sent from my Google Pixel XL using XDA Labs
Not much easier than this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel-xl/how-to/guide-how-to-unlock-root-flash-pixel-xl-t3507886
Steps 1, 2, 3 - done.
ronnyking35 said:
I was hoping like video or something
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've never watched it, but there is a video here.
https://www.androidexplained.com/pixel-root/
markp99 said:
Not much easier than this:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/pixel-xl/how-to/guide-how-to-unlock-root-flash-pixel-xl-t3507886
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think I'm going to just boot TWRP and skip actually installing TWRP at this time. I'll probably use the latest SR 5 for root. Otherwise, steps 1-3 look like what I'm planning on doing to root.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/apps/supersu/2014-09-02-supersu-v2-05-t2868133
Simply
1- unlock bootloader
2- install TWRP
3- Flash root zip file from TWRP
yeah i was trying to root first lol my bad thank you for your support. one more question though after installing ex kernel 1.00 it boots back to recovery every time i tell it to boot to system. is that a compatibility issue?
I'm having a issue,when I put the commas for some reason it just tell me it can't me loaded ,invalid argument...im trying to do it like this video but not success...https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MDddSaptTok
Btw I also uploaded a picture of my problem
ronnyking35 said:
I'm having a issue,when I put the commas for some reason it just tell me it can't me loaded ,invalid argument...im trying to do it like this video but not success...https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MDddSaptTok
Btw I also uploaded a picture of my problem
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at you're command. It needs to be C:\. You have it backwards.
Still having issue Now not such file
ronnyking35 said:
Still having issue Now not such file
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Needs to be capital C. It's case sensitive.
Where is your twrp IMG file located on your computer?
Because I'm guessing it's NOT at the root of your C drive.
Yeah wish there was a full tutorial. I'm pretty rusty. Haven't rooted in 3 years.
CZ Eddie said:
Where is your twrp IMG file located on your computer?
Because I'm guessing it's NOT at the root of your C drive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey man i tried with the capital C and no luck,the file is at C: ,I also changed name to see it helps still not luck I'm guessing that the root of C:
Btw I restarted pc and luck
ronnyking35 said:
Hey man i tried with the capital C and no luck,the file is at C: ,I also changed name to see it helps still not luck I'm guessing that the root of C:
Btw I restarted pc and luck
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have the right name of the IMG in the command line. Type "fastboot boot" without quotes and press space, then drag the IMG into the command line and press enter. You should boot into TWRP no problem
Okay, put the twrp IMG into the same folder where your fastboot is located.
Then shift-right click anywhere in that folder and select the option to open a command prompt from there.
Then type "fastboot boot twr" and after you type twr, just press the "tab" key to auto-complete the rest of the filename.
Then press enter.
OK I GOT A workaround using the support toolkit Now my problem is I transfered over the superuser.zip file with the permanent twrp file....but I can't find it all all when i do a temporary trwp boot...all i see file with bunch of letter and numbers...for some reason I can't see those file in twrp...i boot the .img file using skipsoft toolkit but tried various way for me to flash the recovery permanently and the root file but no luck...this been getting more tuff over the years I remember when I had a s3 ,it was easy Now is a bunch of steps
Anyways I hope Ya can help me figure this out I'm frustrated with this already
CZ Eddie said:
Okay, put the twrp IMG into the same folder where your fastboot is located.
Then shift-right click anywhere in that folder and select the option to open a command prompt from there.
Then type "fastboot boot twr" and after you type twr, just press the "tab" key to auto-complete the rest of the filename.
Then press enter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there auto root method where I just plug and play?
ronnyking35 said:
I was hoping like video or something anyway you think I can do it with the skipsoft toolkit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep it is simple with the toolkit, used it for mine, super easy.
Just make sure you take your time and read what the toolkit is telling you, because it shows you the order in which things need to happen
---------- Post added at 09:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------
ronnyking35 said:
Is there auto root method where I just plug and play?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep in the toolkit, it downloads all you need, all you system images, root packages (the latest), it auto boots your phone when it needs to get into ADB or fastboot, as per my comment above, just follow what it tells you in each window. It is so noob proof, I had no problem using when coming from Sony phones where the methods couldn't be more different and complicated

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