Related
I was not expecting any more donations, it was intended to be a release to those that had already donated. I intended to let things die down on here before a public release here and my last public release here. Then everything was blown out of proportion and people felt that they were obligated to donate in order to receive it. I wanted it to be released for those that already had donated as a thank you for your support and that I would publicly release in about a week.
I can not help that people make assumptions, this is not my fault. I can not help it that Midget and JasJamming (AKA CRUSTEL) have to play games. It was done so I could decide if I wanted to publicly release or not because of recent events. If it would not have been here it would have been on my site.
So those that still feel as if I am "charging" for a M$ product so be it, I can not help how you perceive what my intentions were. The rom will be released here it is just a matter of when, and will be my final release on xda. All future releases will be on my site where I am not under the scrutiny of biased individuals.
Just as he said
I donated to Custel a few days ago. I had no expectations as I have donated to others as well. A short time later I received a PM with his beta. I did not ask for it and he did not request more donations. He only said for me to try it, not distribute and report back. I think he is being unfairly criticized. If others got the impression that he was requiring a donation then IMHO they are wrong.
I appreciate the hard work of the many talented pros on this and other sites. You have taken this gear we call a phone to a new level. Getting into pi**ing matches does not further the cause in the proper fashion.
I truly have no horse in the race here. I just want everyone to know that from my experience Custel was always above board.
Mark
nuff said
Nicely done, Custel. I've always had a feeling that you are a man of intellect and integrity, and I never doubted your sincerity, nor your intelligence when it comes to resale of M$ property.
I think you are owed an apology (yeah, wait for that), and recognition that you were mature enough to come back here and explain your intentions.
I wish you all the best luck with your new (and pretty slick) site, and with all your future endeavors.
Best regards,
-Paul
CUSTEL said:
I wanted it to be released for those that already had donated as a thank you for your support and that I would publicly release in about a week.
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Honestly, that is how I read your intentions to begin with. It's what ensued thereafter that made things appear 'underhanded' and perhaps get blown out of proportion.
While it's admirable to say that you 'weren't expecting any more donations' (and I take you at your word that you weren't), you should have backed that up with not accepting any more donations nor giving anyone but prior donors access to your pre-release until such time as you made a public release, wherever that may be.
That said, every indication was (and still is) that those who donate will be given access to your ROM and until that point is cleared up, your actions will remain questionable and under debate.
You do good work, CUSTEL. Don't let it be sullied by some silly scandal.
vp3G said:
Honestly, that is how I read your intentions to begin with. It's what ensued thereafter that made things appear 'underhanded' and perhaps get blown out of proportion.
While it's admirable to say that you 'weren't expecting any more donations' (and I take you at your word that you weren't), you should have backed that up with not accepting any more donations nor giving anyone but prior donors access to your pre-release until such time as you made a public release, wherever that may be.
That said, every indication was (and still is) that those who donate will be given access to your ROM and until that point is cleared up, your actions will remain questionable and under debate.
You do good work, CUSTEL. Don't let it be sullied by some silly scandal.
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Good Point, from this point on those that donate to receive will not be given access to it.
CUSTEL said:
Good Point, from this point on those that donate will not be given access to it.
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Glad you see as such. Yep, that's all you needed to do to put the brakes on this mess.
Custel the Best
It is unclear to me exactly what happened, and that isn't important. What is important is the deterioration of XDA-Developers. Some of the best cooks are leaving. If this trend continues, what kind of place will be left.
Custel - I will continue to run 2.5, it is almost the perfect ROM for me. Please try to work this out. Maybe some of the moderators will see what is happening.
Mark
And as far ass JazJaming and we know how the rest of his clan is i wouldn't worry too much about them, They know your work is good and thats what makes them mad. They know you have a short temper and they try to piss you off in every way they can I just hope that some of the few good Mods left on this forum will try to clean up some of the favoritism that has plagued this forum. If you leave the forum i wouldn't blame you and i would probably do the same
Good luck to you man, and keep up the great work you do for all the nerds and n00bs out there
not to sound like a d***
Custel - You can call requesting money for access to your work anything you want... call it donating if you desire but please understand that others will call this the way they see it. My personal opinion is that I will call a bird a bird and when someone requires a "donation" before granting access then they are "selling" it. Of course, these are just the words that I choose to use. /shrug
Despiadado1 said:
Custel - You can call requesting money for access to your work anything you want... call it donating if you desire but please understand that others will call this the way they see it. My personal opinion is that I will call a bird a bird and when someone requires a "donation" before granting access then they are "selling" it. Of course, these are just the words that I choose to use. /shrug
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Would you like a quarter?
Sounds like the right thing to do - BTW Syndicate looks good with the 'n' in it.
gregross said:
Sounds like the right thing to do - BTW Syndicate looks good with the 'n' in it.
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LOL smartass, hey it was made at 4am so yea... lol
CUSTEL said:
LOL smartass, hey it was made at 4am so yea... lol
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He he - the (syndicate) site looks great -hopefully all of this drama slows down soon ...
misfitflt said:
It is unclear to me exactly what happened, and that isn't important. What is important is the deterioration of XDA-Developers. Some of the best cooks are leaving. If this trend continues, what kind of place will be left.
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XDA-Developers isn't about cooking ROMs. It is our work that makes ROM cooking possible. For each and every device, we first take it apart and build tools to unlock CID and SIM. We do this at great risk to our expensive new devices. When finished with this part of our work, we have allowed the flashing of other operator ROMS. Then we begin to decode the ROM image itself and build the tools to manipulate it. Finally, we unlock the bootloader and make it safe for the masses to flash.
When this happens, chefs appear and custom ROMs are produced. Bickering and fighting occurs. N00bs are bashed. Yet XDA-Developers are mostly done at this point. Go back through the older device forums and find out what folks like Buzz Lightyear went through. It's a repeated cycle.
My hat is off to the Hermes XDA Developers: pof, Des, OliPro, Tadzio, Bepe, mun_rus. I shake my head in wonder at these folks as I use their tools and hard won knowledge to perform XIP grafts on my latest Hermes ROM.
XDA developers are application gurus too and we provide critical fixes/patches. I'm a part of this as are folks like SuperDave and ViJay555.
Hermes is at EOL. Be happy to know that we will once again begin taking apart the next big device. We are looking forward to Kaiser and the next set of challenges.
XDA developers won't die when the Chef's star fades with their devices. We will be doing what this site is all about: making your next device better.
why is everyone arguing? i thought everyone had a common goal!!
things will be much better when certain people get of there high horse I believe. the n00b bashing is almost a given I'm sure that will never change.
austinsnyc said:
things will be much better when certain people get of there high horse I believe. the n00b bashing is almost a given I'm sure that will never change.
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Must we remind you of your first few posts?
@Sleuth: A really nice, concise synopsis...it should be stickied as a solo post ... a motto ... a mission statement.
I've only been 'round these parts for a few months now, and have barely learned how to make use of the end-parts of this EOL, and I am forever grateful for the wonderful experience. I've learned some things, hope to learn more, and am enjoying the ride.
I thank you and all the geniuses on your list. This site is amazing! A real tribute to what this Internet thing could be. An educational tool and repository for historical knowledge. Better than any library ... bringing that knowledgebase first to our homes and businesses, and now, to the palms of our hands.
But I digress (15 hours of work will do that to you).
Thank you for that last post...I really enjoyed it after a very stressful day.
Kindest regards,
-pvs
pvs said:
@Sleuth: A really nice, concise synopsis...it should be stickied as a solo post ... a motto ... a mission statement.
I've only been 'round these parts for a few months now, and have barely learned how to make use of the end-parts of this EOL, and I am forever grateful for the wonderful experience. I've learned some things, hope to learn more, and am enjoying the ride.
I thank you and all the geniuses on your list. This site is amazing! A real tribute to what this Internet thing could be. An educational tool and repository for historical knowledge. Better than any library ... bringing that knowledgebase first to our homes and businesses, and now, to the palms of our hands.
But I digress (15 hours of work will do that to you).
Thank you for that last post...I really enjoyed it after a very stressful day.
Kindest regards,
-pvs
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I second that!! im very new here too and pvs is right, this place is better than a library!!
bennec83 said:
I second that!! im very new here too and pvs is right, this place is better than a library!!
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Never said i was never a n00b myself or an angel
Does pretty much suck that everyone is leaving Xda though
Hey guys (mostly the senior/mod/admin folks, but anyone feel free to chime in). Could XDA implement vBulletin's (I think there is an official plugin/option... I may be wrong about this though; I cannot say for sure since I am not an admin on any site that uses vBulletin, $user = phpbbWhore reputation system? If it's not built into the latest version of the code, I'm sure there is a 3rd party plugin available from VBulletin's official site (I know of at least a few of those that exist and would help if needed).
My thought behind this is that sometimes someone posts some really useful information and adding a reply that says something like "+1 thanks!" almost seems like a waste of a post to me (I really dislike "filler"/OT threads, but I still want to give the person credit). However if I was able to give a person a point (+) or if someone was just being a jerk for no reason (-), I think more people would take the time to think before they posted. Plus, since we know "post count" mean nothing in terms of someone being a helpful person or not, this would allow new users to spot trustworthy/reliable folks.
My only qualm is that I don't know if XDA as a whole is mature enough to use this kind of system responsibly, but I have faith that any real abusers could be weeded out fairly quickly. I think it would be cool to at least trial run this. Thanks for your time .
Hi DeeBG,
Yeah, it's good idea generally, thou i'd prolly advocate XDA going a step further right off the bat, and implementing a point trading system as a supplement to the donate buttons, especially for those without easy access to paypal credit.
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
Cheers.
Reputation is built into vB, looks like they opted to turn it off. Good thing, every forum I've been a part of / admin'd, it's been abused.
I7redd said:
Reputation has issues when someone on the fringe of the group is battered down for being different. Like imagine someone says "Let's make an iPhone section!". They might lose a years reputation in like a day. At least with a point trading system you're dealing with actual assistance or virtual services, rather than base emotional responses or crowd bullying.
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The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it? So your reputation cannot get worse, but only better.
I7redd said:
I'm still learning about XDA's donate system, which seems fairly arbitrary or opaque. Maybe someone can explain how well that system is working out so far.
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It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
Well there are really two types of systems. One is where you can give a thumbs up or thumbs down on a comment (sometimes represented by a [+] or [-] sign), and then there is the "Thanks" system, as seen on such sites as http://androidforums.com.
I agree that the first system can and sadly usually is abused (I think I saw it work well on one private torrent site I used to belong to a long time ago). There is a somewhat "pack mentality" that some users can fall into, whether someone is "outed" (falsely or not) for being an abuser of the forums or sometimes members are found "guilty by association".
I would like to see at least a "Thanks" system in place, again the folks at androidforums.com (which I'm sure at least some of you are also members at or at least have been directed to a post there before) have this successfully working within their vBulletin-powered site and would happy to help XDA admins if needed (not that I don't have faith in the XDA site owners/coders, you guys are pretty awesome yourselves =p). Of course I would be happy to lend my ~10 years of PHP/MySQL/etc experience to the process if it'd help.
I would start a public poll, but I think it's really in the interests of the site owners (also they can probably setup a more wide-spread poll than I can if they want public opinion).
Your friend in code,
DeeBG =)
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
Captainkrtek said:
I think it would be good to show appreciation to other users but It would be abused knowing that you can knock down someone's reputation (last thing we need is more flaming)
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Yeah, that's why I think a system where you can ONLY give thanks would be cool. Again, forum admins, let me know if you need any assistance getting it up and working (it shouldn't add a performance performance hit to the backend database/system... the php code would be very light and the mysql db would maybe grow a few hundred kB since users without thanks wouldn't have any data).
Developer Bidding...
Livven said:
The reputation system only works through "thanks", doesn't it?
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Still open to cheating using multiple accounts to "Thank" themselves here and there and everywhere.
It's perhaps harder to gain anything with requests from yourself, and gifting points to yourself, while offering up public solutions. Thou i wouldn't put it past someone to try.
It's not much of a system - you can donate directly to xda, which will help cover costs of running the servers, or you can donate to individuals (like me ) whose work you like.
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Hmm... There seems to be a growing trend on XDA towards "donation requests" or "developer bidding" in certain forums. (see Xperia x10 Froyo request topic for example).
It involves people collectively posting that they will each donate a small amount to their favorite cause. (Android on Samsung Wave being another good example)
The current running tallies of offered donations is also interesting idea, thou there is some concern that those who have offered to donate $10 or $20 dollars will actually do so once the developers have done their magic.
Again, the opaque or arbitrary nature of hidden donations is a problem here.
Without going as far as escrow payments system (for requests that could likely need time limits and a refund), a basic "pre-paid" point system should work pretty well. For instance, once a task is completed the points could then be traded back for paypal dollars, completing the "circle of trust".
Any other ideas on this?
(or is there already an active "services" marketplace here somewhere that i've perhaps overlooked?)
I've been a fan of this site for a long time. I don't post too much, but I have gained much information here. This site has been an invaluable part of my Android hobby. I own 5 Android phones and a Motorola Xoom tablet, and thanks to XDA they are all rooted with custom roms and I use each one confidently. This site is full of great information and helpful people.
However, as of late, XDA seems to be putting out a bad vibe to many of its users. I personally see this stemming from the fact that users are expecting far too much. Everyone feels entitled to everything, on their own terms. They make demands of developers that will benefit only themselves. Instead of helping new members find the info they are seeking, they'd rather berate and belittle them publicly. The act superior to anyone asking a question. And on and on(trying not to write a book here). I am watching as developers that have contributed so much be treated with little or no respect until they don't even want to be a part of XDA anymore. I am seeing new members being scared off by elitist, rude "veteran" members. Overall, more and more people are wanting to distance themselves from XDA.
We cannot blame the site admin or mods, though i do hope to see them push the site in a different direction soon. It is on our back, the users of XDA. We are XDA. We need to remember that the devs are doing what they do for free, and for Android as a whole, not us as individuals. What happened to the great sense of community with Android. IMO, that was one of the best aspects of being involved with Android. There is much more I could say, but I think the main points are made and you can fill in the blanks. I hope to see Android become a community again, where users help one another, don't expect everything to be tailored to them specifically, and share a bit of both gratitude and empathy.
I agree with you, but sadly I do not see Xda changing for the better anytime soon. Maybe not at all. The majority of the blame does lie with us, the users. But, the admin and mods must also take some of that blame, as they have allowed the current trend to continue as long as it has
sent using a black and Decker toaster oven and two wire coat hangers
abn75 said:
I agree with you, but sadly I do not see Xda changing for the better anytime soon. Maybe not at all. The majority of the blame does lie with us, the users. But, the admin and mods must also take some of that blame, as they have allowed the current trend to continue as long as it has
sent using a black and Decker toaster oven and two wire coat hangers
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Dude we get it, we understand your not happy, we are working on this so give us some time to work through the issues and quit berating us and maybe try helping us by offering solutions to the problems you see.
Ehh, what do you expect with family plans and children with phones? The smart phone demographic over the last 4 years has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just seen as a business tool, but rather the hip new gadget to have. So when you widen the scope and age of users the arrogance and lack of respect is increased and certainly magnified.
good day.
JimmyMcGee said:
Dude we get it, we understand your not happy, we are working on this so give us some time to work through the issues and quit berating us and maybe try helping us by offering solutions to the problems you see.
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Are you a mod or admin? I'm assuming so by the wording in your post. Noone was berating anyone, especially the mod/admins. I said they weren't to blame, and the poster below me said users are most responsible. This was a post to call attention to an issue, and try to get forum members back into a more community oriented manner, and to NOT react like you did by sounding angry, snide, and pointing fingers.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
chopper the dog said:
Ehh, what do you expect with family plans and children with phones? The smart phone demographic over the last 4 years has changed so dramatically. It's no longer just seen as a business tool, but rather the hip new gadget to have. So when you widen the scope and age of users the arrogance and lack of respect is increased and certainly magnified.
good day.
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Good point indeed.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
andr0id23 said:
Are you a mod or admin? I'm assuming so by the wording in your post. Noone was berating anyone, especially the mod/admins. I said they weren't to blame, and the poster below me said users are most responsible. This was a post to call attention to an issue, and try to get forum members back into a more community oriented manner, and to NOT react like you did by sounding angry, snide, and pointing fingers.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
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No Sir I appreciate your Post. abn has been complaining about our inaction for a while and we ARE looking to improve and it just gets a little old hearing the same complaint over and over when you are working to make this a Quality Forum everyone, including us, wants it to be. I do apologize for my perhaps over-reaction, but it is hard to be constantly beat up on. Yes, us Mods/Admins do deserve some blame. But we have recognized it and we are trying to resolve the issue.
We all just do our best.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
you need to consider that back in its earlier days, XDA was all about this lil' group of people with WinMo devices learning to rip their mobile OSes apart. as the site grew in size and popularity, more devs came in along with more end-users who feed upon the products of their kitchen. once the android explosion began, there was no other way around the fact that a multitude of users would flood in where as the number of devs coming in would be far smaller.
i still remember just over a year back when i got to cooking my own WinMo ROM the community was growing but there were still devs around where ever you looked ready to guide and help around but now that the site's more popular than ever people flock here expecting miracles and are not disappointed either. it's so addictive that you have to stick around for more. but sadly the number of devs don't grows as fast as their end-user counterparts. that's why you see this problem today. we need the newer member to be willing to learn on their own, being patient with the progress of other devs and most importantly...READING.
just my two cents.
Open tech forums are always ripe for attrition due to many reasons.
The question here is, do we cater to the users or do we cater to the developers? It's pretty obvious that without developers, XDA wouldn't be much of anything.
It's my opinion that the 'elitist' attitude which you speak of from the senior members is something that SHOULD be done, as their point is to protect the developers from being inundated with trivial questions and not detailed bug reports.
Kyphur, another XDA Moderator, had this to say back in 2008 (in a similar thread) when we were a bit smaller, and it still holds true:
kyphur said:
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
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I think that there are problems here at XDA that are there partially because of the rather loose rules we have set in place.
Sure, the internet, like most places in our society, is one that is supposed to promote freedom of speech. But there is a monumental difference between debating and being immature. A large proportion of the members here grown adults, but it really, really doesn't seem anything remotely close to that quite a lot of the time. Quite a lot of "you ****ing prick"s and the like being thrown about between members. Quite frankly, it's ridiculous, like a bunch of rather scummy 13 year olds.
Part of that does seem to come from the allowance of swearing on the forums; not saying don't swear, because believe me, I'm the last person who'd say that...but I don't on here, merely because it's not the swearing or inappropriate language itself that causes the problem, but the behaviour that naturally comes with it. Many forums are banning the discussion of provocative topics such as Mac vs. PC, iOS vs Android etc. Obviously, this being a mobile device forum, that can't be done here, but there needs to be some moderator control over that. All because people can't help but be immature about it...
That's the worst bit of it.
As for developer vs. end-user, just look at the market now, as well as what the developers here are doing. Smartphones are now more accesible, and the variety between the OSs at their core is much smaller than it used to be. The developers are working hard to make the process of rooting, jailbreaking, any kind of software modification easier for the more technically inept user.
Developers can't expect this forum to stay a developer community if they are going to make their creations so easy to use So experienced users need to accept that XDA has now moved away from being what it's used to be. They need to try and be accomodating to less technical users.
However, the biggest problem here now are probably newer users. They simply don't read or search. Answers are having to be repeated over and over again, even when everything is in the OP...many users need to spend time reading, and they'll realise that a lot of the answers aren't even technical; just a bit of common sense and logical thinking and you'll get the answers you'll need.
In a way, a simple way of post once, sticky once, force end users to read it, and we'll get somewhere.
A lot of good posts here. I tried to word my OP carefully as to not point fingers. Or at least not to lay blame on any one group of people. And I can't claim to know the whole story as while I own a handful of Android devices, that is only but a small part of this site as a whole. I don't come close to visiting all the forums. I really like XDA. From what I see, it is one of the rare sites where thread, where i frequent, often stay on topic. This is due in part to the mods, and in part to the users directing newer members by telling them this isn't the right place to post, linking to an appropriate thread, or just giving a quick answer. However, it's when people start getting angry and calling other people out for not knowing something, being rude, blah blah blah, that I am seeing more of. If all someone has to say is "use the fu**ing search", or "wrong spot noob", there is really no reason to post anything at all. That isn't helping anyone. There are better ways of going about it.
And I think we all have to admit, the days of only the more technical users rooting and modding are coming to an end. Devs are making it easier, one click methods are popping up all over the place, everything is automated, etc. People no long need to learn what is going on when they root their devices. While I enjoy having that knowledge and using the abd method of rooting when there is a one click available, others certainly will not, and they often don't need to. Maybe this isn't the best decision in many of our eyes, but tt is a reality now. More and more people are hacking/modding/rooting every day, and many of them have not even used a command line. I mean hell, there is even an "adb for dummies program" that will install and set up adb for you in one click now!
Again, not point fingers, but I am saddened to see so many people arguing, so many snide, rude responses, people being so demanding and self-serving, and devs leaving the site. I realize that the site is bigger than ever, and that mods do this for free and don't want to waste time being "rudeness police". I don't have all the answers, just something Ive noticed for awhile now. Glad to hear the mods are working on it as well as they can. I know they don't want to see developers leaving. Let's face it, some of these developers have quite a following! Also, sorry they have to hear the same complaints over and over again, but, as I said, I'm glad they are looking into it(if there is even anything that can be done, and I thanks the mods, admin, devs, and users for making this such a great place to learn and share!
I am one million percent in agreement with this topic, but I think the blame is not xda per se... Now, this is MY OPINION, but the problem is as mentioned before, our current society... I said something similar on aamikam's MikG thread on the Evo forum, this is the result of the 21st century, where technology has made mankind do anything anywhere anytime with only a click, and the kids and teens of today are raised in this world of now, so is in their nature to have that state of mind, "I want this now"; and I know this is not all the world, but in general, this is the new way of life on this century, the age of now...
We can also blame the new parents of this era, the average parent now is in their mid 20s to 30s, low 40s and in general, are allowing their kids more privileges and liberties than they had just because "at your age I couldn't do it, but I'll let you do it, not like your grandpas who didn't allowed me do anything at all" and so on and so forth...
Anyway, just wanted to say something about this, good nite all..!
We all know one of the biggest gripes about Windows Phone is the lack of a few key apps. I know that I frequently contact a few companies to let them know that I am looking forward to a Windows Phone version of their existing apps and I’m sure others do as well. So companies get a smattering of requests from some users here and there.
Just wondering if perhaps we focus on one or a few particular apps at a time with many people emailing, tweeting, comments on Facebook etc in a sustained way to let them see that there is actual interest from a large number of users in the Windows Phone community. Who knows, maybe if there is enough noise, some of them will rethink their stand.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but seemed like good place to see what people think.
Thoughts?
Bad idea. Software business works by different way. No one cares about your tweets or fb posts or forum noise - it's just a children game.
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
willp2 said:
I agree that it may not make a difference, however companies often do actually listen to what people are saying. If it sounds like there is a demand, some companies who have been on the fence, may well pull the trigger and make something happen.
I've had luck getting companies to do things when I ask publicly that they wouldn't do when I asked privately. So it seems like getting more people asking publicly may well help in some instances.
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Other than XDA, if you also post this on WPCentral forum, you will get much much much better and enthusiastic response for such requests. There is a list of app-requests somwhere in this forum too, if you wanted a place to pick apps-in-demand from.
I'm afraid you are mistaken. Companies are "listening" their marketing stuff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Neither facebook posts nor tweets can change company budget, marketing strategy or development roadmap. In fact, the most companies are controlled by the intelligent and informed people, so you may be sure they already knew about WP7 platform
P.S. Let me guess: you've never worked in software industry, don't you?
Thanks for the comments on WPCentral forum, good point. More regular users over there.
sensboston - You made my point exactly. Companies are listening to marketing staff, investors and personal CEO/chairman opinions. Those people, especially the marketing types pay attention to what the outside world is saying. If they see noise about a particular topic, it gets their attention.
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
Not that it matters or even relevant to what I'm talking about here, but I've been in the software industry for over 20 years.
willp2 said:
For instance, if that company releases a new version of an app that has big problems, they'll hear about it first from all those social sources and they will generally try to react quickly to quite down the noise.
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It's a completely different case. Yes, I agree - huge noise/rumors about critical bug in popular app/software can push (some) companies to force fix or workaround immediately (good example is a Nokia representatives, who's - I believe - are monitoring XDA forums daily)
But porting app to the different platform (especially to WP7!) is very complicated. Most primary titles are written on C++ and uses native code/API calls. "Porting" C++ code to C#/Silverlight isn't just "porting"; it's much more close to complete rewrite. Also WP7 platform support means an additional tier of Q&A and etc. and so on (if you are really worked more than 20 years in industry you can easily extend these requirements).
100 or even 1000 facebook posts and forum requests can't show you a real app demand but statistics can. Unfortunately WP7 market share currently is too small (at the end of 2011 it was about 2%).
I thought there was a similar thread already, but if not then perhaps we can do that. I heard a company saying, they'll port it to windows phone if they enough demands.
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
willp2 said:
I do get that it's not a trivial task.
Again I was really just getting at the many companies who are already considering moving to Windows Phone but are on the fence.
As we know more and more apps are being ported every week so many companies already have been thinking about, planning or are already doing it. In some cases a little public pressure may at least confirm to them that people are interested and perhaps move things along.
lamborg - sorry if someone else already brought this up in another thread, I did search around first.
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I am not sure either but I think I have seen a similar thread, Anyway, if that cannot be found.
BTW it was I think Draw Something which said about the enough demand.
Maybe try crowd funding
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
rbrunner7 said:
Maybe this is an area where crowd funding could help.
I mean, people can make noise about want for a particular WP7 app as much as they like, but at the end of the day somebody has to pay for development, in some way, either directly or indirectly.
A successful crowd funding campaign for an app would probably prove much more that there really is demand than just so many Facebook postings.
Of course there is also the danger that such a campaign fails miserably and shows that there isn't real demand, just a very vocal but small minority wanting the app...
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Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use, let alone donate to some fund for the possibility of an app being ported.
Standard contractor rates for a software engineer are about $100 to $150 per hour. Salaried devs make less, but the cost is close to the same for companies because of benefits packages. So, 1 day of dev time for 1 developer is going to cost around $1000. My guess is a crowd fund would not even reach $100. But even if $10000 were collected, that would only cover a team of 5 for 2 days. And, 5 days for 20 business days would cost $100000. And this is is exactly why companies have been slow to bring apps over. It's expensive.
The other aspect is that although the syntax is similar in C#, Java, and C++; there are enough differences to make it less than a simple task to just switch over. Most devs with experience have been doing either C# or Java or C++. Most have not been doing all 3. This means paying money and taking time to get the existing devs trained or hire additional devs and transfering domain knowledge to them. Both have costs. (Note: iPhone is Objective C, which is different, but also has similarities. Same issues though)
Many companies just don't have the resources to spend when the return on investment is not short term. Long term as more consumers buy Windows Phones, it will be more economically viable for companies to invest in porting the applications.
JVH3 said:
Guarantee this would not get noticed. Most users on the site don't even donate to the devs that post apps here that they use
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He-he... Most users on the site are too lazy, greedy and irresponsible not even for donation but just for vote and review published here on XDA apps And some are so ungrateful that they forget just to say "Thanks"... Don't tell me about donations: I've collected money for Cotulla, for the Samsung's first freedom ROM for WP7... From hundreds of Focus owners here only 13 or 14 people are donated.
As for your arguments: it's 100% true for an adult professionals but of course not for 12-14 years old teens who "has over 20 years of software industry experience"
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
rbrunner7 said:
Yeah, I am myself a professional developer at day time, and I know how much it costs my company to employ me
But still, I think not all hope is lost. Some people may read this thread and just maybe change their attitude against devs that offer "free" things a little to the better - good that we talked about it, then!
And as I program in my free time anyway, just for fun, even a crowdsourced 1000 dollars could nudge me in a direction that I would not take otherwise, and people get the app they like. Of course only if the right APIs and server permissions are there to build it in the first place which of course is not always the case - many apps can only be built by the companies who own the corresponding server infrastructure.
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Not to be discouraging, but it is pretty unlikely to get $1000 in donation from users here. It you look at the weather city editor that I wrote (link to thread in signature) for Windows Mobile, I got maybe close to $500 in donations from the time I created it through the entire time I worked on it, supported it, and enhanced it. I created it because I needed it and turned it into more than I needed so others could easily use it. The donations came from maybe 20 to 30 users. It was downloaded by well over 10000 users.
If looking for money as the reward, you are much better off paying Microsoft the $100 and putting the app on the marketplace and charging a dollar or making it be ad supported.
You'll still get respect for making cool things and posting them here, but it's not going to make you rich. It's a great place to learn and get some experience making apps though. Lots of people are willing to help if you get stuck on something.
It's a nice thought but, in reality it wont work
I thought about doing this too...
If you got everyone to attempt to do it, it might but, if you only get 50 people to do it(and that would be a lot in a fourm to request something they might not be interested in) that is a little bit compared to their marketplace with iOS or Android.
I personally really want Cut the Rope but, after posting a handfull of times on their facebook page and even emailing customer service, no luck
At the DerbyCon hacker conference this past weekend, a buddy and i were asked to give a presentation about unlocking and modding of Android phones. Naturally, it's well below the level of most folk here, but if you have a friend who is interested in this topic they might get a lot out of this video...
Roamer & Deviant - Welcome to NinjaTel, Press '2' To Activate Your Device Now
youtube [dot] com [slash] watch?v=gz4w1kS1fHs
(i don't post here often, i just read... so i can't make a direct link)
... our original idea was just to claim a table in the hotel bar and offer to show people how to tweak their devices, just giving a helping hand in case newbies were apprehensive. Due to a last minute speaker cancellation, we were tapped to turn this into a full-on presentation. So, i rapidly put together slides and we grabbed a few spare devices and off we went.
The main crux of what we hoped to do with this presentation (which is NSFW, by the way) was convince newbies that it's not very hard or risky to do this. People should not be afraid to try.
This talk is geared towards the HTC One V because hundreds of them were given away at this past summer's DEFCON conference (which, if you don't know about that, google and read up on the Ninja Networks. it was amazing!)
So, perhaps someone will enjoy it. If it convinces just one more new person to try hacking their Android devices, mission accomplished.