Develop Bugs

[APP] Lemon v1.3.0.1

Lemon
MODERN BROWSING
FEATURED
Massive Overhaul - completely rewritten to optimize the code and unify the overall interface
OTA Updates - updates require little to no user interaction
Security - hide and lock the browser with the touch of a button
Privacy - browsing history is only stored locally and can even be automatically deleted on exit
Auto Complete - suggests words depending on your history
Screenshot - nothing special, but you may take HD screenshots right within the browser
Notepad - notes that save automagically
Open Source - the source has now been released
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NEW
Privileges Fixed - no longer runs needs to run in administrator mode thanks to @SixSixSevenSeven
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BUGS
Outdated Browser Component - this browser is based off IE7 on some computers
Mishandles Links - links that open in a new window or tab will most likely open in your default browser
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lemon has been abandoned for quite some time now and I have removed the screenshots and download links. I am considering coming back to this project in the near future when I have time to put Windows on my MacBook. Until then, however, you may play with the source.
Source // Website

Maybe post some screenshots, or possibly a download?

netham45 said:
Maybe post some screenshots, or possibly a download?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the recommendations Just uploaded 3 screenshots and added a download link towards the bottom.

Nice start. No go on RT.

cx1 said:
Nice start. No go on RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wonder why this is not working on the RT.. I wish I had this device to test some things on. Anyways, this build was focused on 4.0 .NET framework made in visual studio 2012 for windows 8 Desktop. Thanks for trying.
EDIT: Problem is with the installer, download the ZIP below it and use that. I will try to find a fix for the installer. Sorry for the inconvenience.

mellowdev said:
I wonder why this is not working on the RT.. I wish I had this device to test some things on. Anyways, this build was focused on 4.0 .NET framework made in visual studio 2012 for windows 8 Desktop. Thanks for trying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try targeting 4.5 for Windows RT.

netham45 said:
Try targeting 4.5 for Windows RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just updated to .NET 4.5

Nope will not run on RT unless I'm doing something wrong?

THEBIG360 said:
Nope will not run on RT unless I'm doing something wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hmm, any errors being displayed? Or just not opening?
EDIT: Problem is with the installer, download the ZIP below it and use that. I will try to find a fix for the installer. Sorry for the inconvenience.

You would need to target "Any CPU" in the .NET code, and recompile any third-party x86 libraries that you are using to target ARM, and it would probably work then. Most (although not all) of the system libraries on Win8 are also on Windows RT, and (at least in the case of .NET libraries), the ones that aren't can sometimes be brought over from a Win8 box anyhow.

GoodDayToDie said:
You would need to target "Any CPU" in the .NET code, and recompile any third-party x86 libraries that you are using to target ARM, and it would probably work then. Most (although not all) of the system libraries on Win8 are also on Windows RT, and (at least in the case of .NET libraries), the ones that aren't can sometimes be brought over from a Win8 box anyhow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At the moment, I am trying to get geckoFX 15 and xulrunner 19 added to the project so I do not have to use the default WebBrowser component given in Visual Studio. If you would like, I could send you the source and maybe you could help porting to Windows RT and adding geckoFX? Btw after v1.0 this will be Open Source to all Thanks for all the support guys.

Works now thanks, scrolling is a little hitchy how ever its a great start. On another note would it be possible to make the onscreen keyboard auto pop up?
Will the flash be optimized, the browser is really fast. Its just the flash side of things that is buggy.

Seems to bypass the Flash whitelist on Windows RT. That's quite handy.

Re: [APP] Lemon Browser v0.9.7.3
I can surely attempt the auto pop up on screen keyboard, also the glitchy scrolling will be fixed soon. Thanks
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium

Just FYI: a web browser requiring Administrator to run is absolutely unacceptable. Browsers should run with extremely limited permissions (lower than standard user, ideally) rather than elevated permissions. I fixed this by hand-editing the .EXE file's embedded manifest to run AsInvoker (rather than RequireAdministrator). You should change the manifest in VS. Preferably, the whole thing would run in a low-IL sandbox the way IE does, and/or use some other sandboxing technique.
Also, there's little reason, especially for RT-targeted builds, to use Debug unless you include the source files and expect people to use them when reporting bugs. Release builds are typically smaller and faster.
Finally, could you get this to use a somewhat less awful rendering engine than IE7? I don't mind using Trident in general, but IE7 is archaic and awful. How do you justify "faster than Chrome" on a browser that can't even pass Acid2, much less run a modern speed benchmark? Gecko would be awesome, though I don't believe anybody has managed to port it to RT yet so that would be x86-only at first.
There are other things I'd like to see, ranging from simple UI conventions (double-clicking the tab bar, tapping Alt to show the menu bar, etc.) to some significant security issues (loading mixed content - that is, HTTP content on an HTTPS site - is a potentially serious risk).

Re: [APP] Lemon Browser v0.9.7.3
I appreciate the feedback, about the debug, i honestly did not even think about that, its just much faster to update using the debug folder. I will make it the release build next time. Next - about the admin permissions - Unfortunately this is needed to enable the temporary download of version.txt (allows OTA updates). And I was not planning on targeting the RT at all. I simply made this on my windows 8 laptop and released to the public for however they would like. I am now working on a 3D FPS though and will be releasing the code to this very shortly. And for the IE7 subject, I tried using firefox component but it does not allow the "LoadComplete" sub. Simply put, I do not know how to do 'if web page loaded' do this. I need this feature so i can load favicons etc. Please understand that this was made < 1 week ago. I highly appreciate all the comments though because I can not even begin testing all of these. Plus with school and other activities I do not expext this to be a huge project. Just simply a fun project (focused on gui) to add to my projects. Thanks again
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium

No worries on the Debug/Release, just a tip.
The admin thing, though... that's a serious problem. If the problem is just downloading a file, download it to the local application data folder instead of the install directory. If auto-updating is desired, make a separate updater that runs as Admin, and have the browser launch the updater program when it detects an update.
That said, though, admin is only needed if the browser is "installed" to a location where Admin is required to write. Programs installed in (for example) the user profile don't require this. In fact, on machines where the user *can't* get Admin (think about computers at a school, library, or office), the fact that it can install and run without requiring admin is a major advantage.
I understand that this is a side project for you, and I applaud you for hobby programming and sharing it with us, that's fantastic to see. I also do quite like the GUI, although I find it a bit bare-bones at the moment. Additionally, you getting it to work on RT is fantastic. However... I cannot in good conscience recommend using a web browser that sets the state of environment security back by nearly seven years. The web is an extremely hostile "place" and we've learned many lessons over the years. one of the critical ones is that web browsers are simply too easy to attack for them to be trusted; the only safe way to use one is to assume it will be compromised, and run it in a suitable contained environment. Microsoft did his with the IE7 Protected Mode on Vista betas in 2006, but even on XP it was possible to run IE as a non-Admin.

Re: [APP] Lemon Browser v0.9.7.3
I will admit chrome will always be my favorite browser Just wanted to throw something visually appealing together though after seeing all the horribly designed ones on youtube lol. If anyone would like the source just email me. The code is (slightly cluttered) but OCD friendly. everything labeled and named properly. If someone would like the source, i recommend also downloading the android holo icons from their site. That is what I am currently using and this allows identical pre-made light / dark icons.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda premium

Hello !
really thank for this build ! :good:
A question:
Can you integrate a download manager which allow us to download files with screen off but which avoid the complet stand-by state of the tablet during the download ?
Because with IE it's impossible to download something with the Surface screen OFF.
It could be a really cool feature, and the only browser which allow that ! :highfive:
@+
*********_
Edit:
Oh......
Your browser yet intagrate this feature !
Cool... Now I can download big files with screen Off !
I love you

samco08 said:
Hello !
really thank for this build ! :good:
...
Cool... Now I can download big files with screen Off !
I love you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks! I appreciate that aha. Major update (kinda lol) will be released soon. Have to work on Mango Tools first (I might toss a thread up on this tool) but this can be found on my site mellowdev.net It just allows you to easily perform ADB commands on android phone. Anyways right after this I will work on v0.9.8! Hoping to add lots of cool, unique features to give this browser an edge. I know that speed means a lot and I have received many complaints on using the IE7 component. However my focus at the moment is to add features. Web browsing for most is just type in words and search. I want this to be so much more. So anyways aha thanks again. Love the support here!

How "limited" is Windows RT compared to regular Windows 8?

I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?

Deusdies said:
I've been thinking of getting a tablet and I've been eyeing the Windows 8 tablets. Honestly, I like Android, but all of their tablets disappoint (I don't want a Nexus tablet or an iPad for that matter).
I keep hearing that RT marketplace is very small, that there are only "a few apps", etc. Is this true? I am not a heavy app user, plus I'll always have my phone (LG G2 btw, and it's amazing).
I use W8 on my desktop and I like it - but that's obviously the "full" version. I would also like to ask for a tablet recommendation (Nokia 2520 looks FANTASTIC by the way). I don't want to give more than $500 for a tablet, so then generally RT tablets come to mind. My only other requirement is at least a full HD screen. What would you suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well if its for your criteria of a full Desktop you are right - you can't do this with Windows RT, thus with no RT tablet. But as im using my Surface as a thin client, remoting my home pc or my server for all the stuff i can't do on my tablet it's quite wonderful. And the Windows Store has been incresing ever since, last week i reset me tablet and did some serious store browsing to get up to date with available apps and i probably couldn't find anthing that's not there - development environment and compilers excluded of course. But as far as i can see - not knowing your area of expertise - there is everything you would need to get a basic start, though some apps will cost a dollar/euro or two. Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
As for the Nokia 2520, it definitely looks good! Haven't actually seen this one come up, looks promising.
To sum it up: if what you like is the new Modern UI interface you can definitely go with an RT tablet for there are plenty of apps available. For the desktop that's a whole other story, as I've described (jailbreak/ported apps) - if you are willing to compromise, you will get another added benefit from this cool piece of hard- and software.
The decision which RT tablet to use should be yours i guess, there are quite a few out there, but in a matter of usability I deem them all to work the same.
Greetings,
Fasin

The app market you can check out on your full windows 8 machine no problem. I do personally think its a bit limited.
Windows RT is for all intents and purposes windows 8 running on ARM instead of x86 processors. This does bring a few limitations, and then microsoft impose 2 more.
ARM and x86 processors are rather obviously not compatible. x86 programs cannot run on ARM and vice versa normally (you could emulate an ARM CPU on x86 and vice versa but thats slow).
Most "metro" apps are compiled in both ARM and x86 versions. There are a few which are not for whatever reason. But most should be available in both stores. The vast majority of metro apps use C# or VB.net anyway which dont output native ARM or x86 machine code and instead use .NET bytecode (the .NET runtime is present on both windows 8 and windows RT). VLC is the only major exception I can think of right now, although that hasn't been publicly released yet and ARM is planned (right now its x86 only).
Just about all desktop software for windows is x86. It won't run on ARM. If its open source it may be portable however the only compiler capable of targetting Windows RT is MSVC whereas alot of software can only be built in alternative compilers. There is a list (already linked in the post above) of software which people have managed to recompile for Windows RT.
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Whether the RT is suitable or not depends on your needs. If all your going to do is surf the web, well its full blown internet explorer 11 not some sucky mobile browser, it even has flash (but not java, which you should not confuse for javascript. However iOS and android dont have java either).
You get full RDP support in windows RT. So you can view the screen of and interact with your real windows 8 desktop remotely on the tablet. In the ported apps section for jailbroken devices there is also VNC which does the same thing but is cross platform unlike RDP which is supposed to just be windows (however there is an RDP server for linux too so if you have a linux machine, install the RDP server, remote access it on non jailbroken RT device no problem).
You get microsoft office. Its missing plugins and macros. But otherwise, its a full office suite. Its more than android or iOS have.
Being close enough to normal windows, you get a full file browser which supports network mapped drives and USB etc as you do on your desktop. Android can have file browsers, but they usually arent as good as a desktop file browser. iOS doesnt have a file browser at all.
With the file browser you have support for USB storage. Got some photos on a memory stick, plug it in, you can view them. iOS cannot do this. Some android phones can, some can't (your LG should be able to).
True there are not as many apps as iOS or android. But both iOS and android had low apps counts when they first released and according to what little public data there is, windows after 1 year is about on par with both android and iOS app counts after 1 year. It takes time (but will it take too long is a better question)

Thank you both very much. Very well thought out responses. I was debating between getting the Dell Venue 11 Pro (full Windows 8) or the Nokia 2520 being as that they're the same price, but I have honestly been convinced to get the RT version.
Fasin said:
Whatsmore, there is the 8.0 jailbreak, if you are willing not to go to 8.1 yet (don't know if the surface 2 gets delivered with 8.1 and you would need to downgrade) - in this case there are already a lot of ported desktop apps available.
Jailbreak and ported apps can be found here:
Jailbreak
Ported Desktop Apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. My. Gott.
I had no idea that this even existed. I think this is pretty much what settles it - I'm definitely getting an RT. Notepad++? Python? 7-zip? Amazing! Vielen dank!
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then 2 microsoft imposed restrictions.
Drivers. Although windows tablets all have full USB host abilities, you do of course require drivers for all USB devices you want to use. Windows are not allowing 3rd party drivers on ARM, so if your USB device isn't listed on their compatibility chart it won't work. Mice, keyboards, USB storage, some printers and even the xbox 360 controller work.
Desktop requiring signed binaries. This is a major restriction which serves no purpose. All software run on windows RT must have a digital signature attached which will be checked before execution. If the signature is missing it won't run it. For store apps this isn't a problem as signing the app is part of the release process. However microsoft don't want us to use the desktop on windows RT devices, they havent released any way to add the signature to software running on the traditional desktop. MS Office, internet explorer and all the other software that runs in desktop mode and is preinstalled on RT has been signed because microsoft wrote it and have the tools to do so. We don't. There is a jailbreak which can remove this restriction and enable people to run desktop applications (either written in .NET or compiled for ARM) but it doesn't work on windows RT 8.1 which the lumia tablet and surface 2 have (they cannot be downgraded to 8.0). An 8.1 jailbreak is coming soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, that truly is an odd restriction. Perhaps they just want people to use Windows Store more and more? But from this thread it seems that Jailbreak "fixes" a lot of issues - and I didn't even know this existed until now (admittedly I wasn't into the Windows 8 on mobile devices a whole lot until now).
Yep, I think my only pseudo-concern is now gone. Thank you again both, and Nokia 2520 - here I come!

Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.

BestBuy will have Surface RT for $200 in Black Friday. I'd like to buy one since it is such cheap and I can play with some ARM Win32 programs.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Well, the jailbreak isnt out for 8.1 and is still more limited than the bay trail in the venue 11. But its one of those things that can only go uphill from here.
My personal choice would be the venue. But thats me, not you. I do a fair bit of programming and use alot of software that just plain isnt available on RT. And I think thats the point, different devices suit different people in different ways.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
I've just read Engadget's review of Nokia 2520, which is overall positive. But I thought it would be much better than the Surface 2, and apparently (according to their review), it isn't. In fact, I thought it will have a better battery life, while in fact it has worse.
As a student I also get a 10% discount on Surface only, and I have a $25 Microsoft Store gift card that I got eons ago, so that brings the total cost for a Surface 2 down to ~$370, which is phenomenal.
It's still in between Nokia 2520 and Surface 2...

Deusdies said:
I do quite a bit of programming myself (both personally and for my work), but I can never picture myself programming on a tablet (or even a tablet/keyboard combo). That's just not what I'm getting the tablet for.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.

ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do program on a laptop with a 14" 1366*768 display. I have used much higher resolution displays though and it is certainly alot better.

ThorburnJ said:
To be honest even a laptop is less than ideal - if you're used to working on a multi-monitor desktop setup then a laptop will feel restrictive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep... I do all of my programming on a desktop. At work 3 monitors, at home 1, but 27". So, yes, tablet is just for movies, some games, etc.

It is possible to emulate some x86 programs on RT's ARM processor, however often it will be slow. Most desired programs won't run through emulation (including utorrent, VLC, Steam, etc)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934

Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?

Rakeesh_j said:
Doesn't Microsoft forbid metro apps from having native binaries?
If so, how would you ever write something like a wii emulator on today's hardware? It would be way too slow. Perhaps two decades from now?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
No...
Many "metro" apps are normal C/C++ compiled natively for the processor itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.

Rakeesh_j said:
Oh. Then what was with MS's comments that they deliberately wanted to make metro apps limited? They can't just mean in terms of being sandboxed? You can still sandbox without sacrificing utility; Android does that quite well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
trying to start flamewars again...

SixSixSevenSeven said:
trying to start flamewars again...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, it's very much on topic. If the goal was to start a flame war, then the OP beat me to it a long time ago.

Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Kindly point out something an android app can do which a windows app cannot (there are some, I personally wanted to use a certain feature but until 8.1 could not, yeah 8.1 added loads more features)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Apps requiring root do not count as root is a device modification much the same way modified RT devices can do more.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't really see it that way. Just issue an 'oem unlock' command to the device and you're golden. RT devices however by design forbid doing anything like that.
That said, the ultimate limitation in RT comes from this: RT won't run any app unless MS explicitly greenlights it. A lot of the more interesting apps (to me anyways) are ones that companies like MS and in some circumstances even Google wish didn't exist at all, like ad blockers, being able to tether without carrier permission, etc. Even so, not all of these require root and there's nothing stopping you from using them on Android.

Rakeesh_j said:
Honestly I don't know as I've never published any apps and I've only done very small scale development for my own uses. I'm just going by MS's commentary on where they think they went wrong with their 8 strategy, in which they indicate that they believe making apps limited in scope wasn't a mistake (effectively they believe that their marketing was the reason for RT's failure, and that it will be easier to market 2 OSes instead of 3.)
I do know however that you see some pretty complex applications on Android whereas I haven't seen anything on RT hasn't already been done better in a web browser. In fact, I've seen web browsers do things that RT will not, take for example that version of battlefield which runs in Firefox and Chrome (RT could technically do that, granted.) The most complicated emulator available for RT is for snes, which also can be done in FF and Chrome: http://www.b81.org/~tjw/smw/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Then if you don't know, then why are you claiming it to be so poor in comparison to android? What apps *are available* doesnt dictate what apps the system is capable of.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Two things:
Comments I've heard from developers
And most importantly, Microsoft's own comments
SixSixSevenSeven said:
In 8.0 the biggest issues were lack of low level interfaces to peripherals and instead being limited to high level wrappers provided by WinRT. In 8.1 there are now WinRT wrapper classes to raw USB and bluetooth, both of which were absent in 8.0. Besides that, there isn't any OpenGL, but there is DirectX which android doesnt have and serves the same purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That later bit is more of a reason to not want RT. Virtually every platform out there uses OpenGL. The number of devices that use directx exclusively make up such a small percentage of the marketplace that it almost may as well not even exist. Android wouldn't gain anything at all by having it (really, no developer out there has ever said "I'd port to Android if only it supported directx,") and it really hurts that RT/WP don't have it. For this reason, any developer who says that they'll only use DirectX is shooting themselves in the foot. Microsoft is doing exactly that - too many games developers said they probably wouldn't ever bother porting anything to RT/WP because they don't want to spend all of the money on porting because the revenue gained is almost guaranteed to not be worth it. Sure, some game engines now support it, but that doesn't solve the problem of backporting their own customizations and additions to the base engine.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
WIndows 8 apps are perfectly capable of hosting a first person shooter such as battlefield, there is a massive difference between it being incapable and simply not been done (actually there are FPS games, but they are more inline with the crap you see on android).
Your battlefield example is entirely bull**** either way as you seemed to be arguing for android whereas android doesnt have battlefield either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's probably because you missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with whether or not battlefield is an FPS. The point is that I've seen web browsers do more impressive things than RT apps. Battlefield is merely an example of why even Chrome is more valuable to me than RT.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Even if microsoft ditched windows RT, the store is part of windows 8. It would still be present. Windows RT is just an ARM port of windows 8. WinRT is the so called "sandbox" store apps run in and is present on both operating systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You aren't telling me anything new here. Microsoft has done something similar more than once and we've already seen the results: It'll just go derelict and then eventually deprecated but still kept around.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if MS created an app store for win32 apps similar to what apple is doing with OSX. Their current store model is just a flat out knockoff of the ios app model (contrast to the play store model where each publisher is at their own discretion, and some people still wonder why android/play is by far more popular than the rest) so they may as well go all the way with it.

[Q] Surface RT Android App Help!!!!

Hi Guys
I am after a Android app that I use and I really need which is called Mobile CMS. I want to know is there a way to install Android apps on the Surface RT and run. I connect to my work cameras using my IP address and port number to connect to my DVR.
or if they is any other software I can use for what im looking for?
Your help is much needed
Thanks
Steve

"Is there any way"? No. Why would you even think that? Can you install iOS apps on Android? No!
"any other software"? I don't know. There's a number of protocols used for those types of connections. You may even be able to just use a web browser; RT (unlike recent versions of Android) supports Flash, and some of those cameras let you view their feeds in the browser using Flash.

GoodDayToDie said:
"Is there any way"? No. Why would you even think that? Can you install iOS apps on Android? No!
"any other software"? I don't know. There's a number of protocols used for those types of connections. You may even be able to just use a web browser; RT (unlike recent versions of Android) supports Flash, and some of those cameras let you view their feeds in the browser using Flash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Iv tried using the web browser but it doesnt want to open it. Its just a blank page with a grey X on the corner of the page meaning it doesnt allow to view the image.

Probably needs a different plugin then, like Silverlight or Java. RT supports Flash, but no others. That's too bad.
Just checking: is your Surface up to date? *VERY* old RT firmware would not run Flash by default on most sites.
Anyhow, if you know what protocol it uses for video streaming, you can probably find an app in the store that understands it and can display the feed.

GoodDayToDie said:
Probably needs a different plugin then, like Silverlight or Java. RT supports Flash, but no others. That's too bad.
Just checking: is your Surface up to date? *VERY* old RT firmware would not run Flash by default on most sites.
Anyhow, if you know what protocol it uses for video streaming, you can probably find an app in the store that understands it and can display the feed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it up to date. i just really need this app or anything on the lines that im looking for that can connect to my DVR.

Anyone else have a idea... Something??

You've had the only answer possible with the information given.
What is the DVR in use?
The forums for the DVR in question would be able to help better.
The only other possible answer: buy an android device

[Q] Windows surface RT.

How's everyone doing?
I bought a Surface RT during last Black Friday and i have been using it mainly for school. I just found out there was a jailbreak and i guess this whole world of mods. Just wondering what kind of things can a normal computer gamer and medical student gain by jailbreaking? What additional features do you get?

Windows RT cannot run desktop applications normally for 2 reasons.
Firstly it uses an ARM architecture processor commonly used in phones and tablets whereas your normal laptop or desktop uses an x86 architecture processor. The 2 are not compatible, same way my A+ blood is not suitable for a B- recipient (as far as my limited medical knowledge is concerned anyway).
Secondly, unlike windows 8, windows RT features digital signature enforcement. In order to confirm whether a piece of software is legitimate or malware it requires microsoft to add a digital signature to the executable. If the signature is missing or invalid then it won't run it. Apps you download from the windows store will come with this signature so its not a problem there. Unfortunately there is no way to obtain a certificate for desktop applications available to us at this time so only microsoft office, internet explorer and the other built in desktop programs that came preinstalled have the required certificate.
The jailbreak removes the signature checking on windows RT 8.0 only, it does not function on RT 8.1. Black friday is not a thing here so I have no idea when you got the tablet, it could have come with 8.1 rather than 8.0 in which case you can get an 8.0 recovery image and "downgrade" the device again. That solves the second issue and allows us to run software not authorised by microsoft.
The first issue. I don't know how much you know about software development but normally you take a human readable file(s), run it through a compiler and that spits out the executable binary. Of course existing software that you can just hop online and download or pull from a CD will have a binary for x86 processors not ARM. Microsofts C/C++ compiler with support for windows RT is available though so we can at least get binaries which will run on the Surface RT (and other RT devices). Downside, in order for us to port this software to RT it has to have the human readable source code available and that source code needs to work in microsofts compiler, if either of those requirements is not met then there is nothing we can do for a port.
If you are running the 8.0 version of RT rather than RT 8.1 then you can obtain the jailbreak tool from here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092158
A list of applications which have been ported to RT can be found here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092348
So what do you gain as a medical student/gamer by jailbreaking? The ability to run the software in the list above, that is it (and if I was to pick up an RT device that would be highly important to me, but thats me, not everyone)

SixSixSevenSeven said:
A list of applications which have been ported to RT can be found here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2092348
So what do you gain as a medical student/gamer by jailbreaking? The ability to run the software in the list above, that is it (and if I was to pick up an RT device that would be highly important to me, but thats me, not everyone)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't consider myself a serious gamer, but the jailbreak gives me three game-related things that I use occasionally. First is Quake. I never actually played through the whole game back in the day, so I'm finally doing that on my Surface, which I think is really cool. Mouse not required so I can pretty much play it wherever (unlike Quake 3, which I've also played on it occasionally). Second is DOSbox, as I occasionally pull out some old games like Duke Nukem when I'm bored. Last is the super Nintendo emulator snes9x. Yes I know there is also a store app version, but it got pulled for while, so I like the knowledge that the desktop version is mine to keep.
Past that there are some very helpful desktop utilities that I use, KeepPass2 (password safe) I use for both personal and work passwords, so to have it on my Surface is awesome, and since there is also a subversion client, I can even check out the work safe directly using my Surface. And of course Putty.
Basically I would not have bought my Surface RT if it weren't for the jailbreak. And I will also not upgrade to 8.1 if a jailbreak isn't available. There are too many things I would rather do on the desktop, even on RT.

domboy said:
I wouldn't consider myself a serious gamer, but the jailbreak gives me three game-related things that I use occasionally. First is Quake. I never actually played through the whole game back in the day, so I'm finally doing that on my Surface, which I think is really cool. Mouse not required so I can pretty much play it wherever (unlike Quake 3, which I've also played on it occasionally). Second is DOSbox, as I occasionally pull out some old games like Duke Nukem when I'm bored. Last is the super Nintendo emulator snes9x. Yes I know there is also a store app version, but it got pulled for while, so I like the knowledge that the desktop version is mine to keep.
Past that there are some very helpful desktop utilities that I use, KeepPass2 (password safe) I use for both personal and work passwords, so to have it on my Surface is awesome, and since there is also a subversion client, I can even check out the work safe directly using my Surface. And of course Putty.
Basically I would not have bought my Surface RT if it weren't for the jailbreak. And I will also not upgrade to 8.1 if a jailbreak isn't available. There are too many things I would rather do on the desktop, even on RT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you that sounds amazing. Yea I use it mainly doing work at a clinic, but there is always downtime throughout the day. Playing some Old school quake/snes would be tight. for SNEs are the roms all on there or can you just download everysingle one you want? also do you need a controller?

Redistributing ROMs is generally considered at least technically illegal, and thus against XDA rules. That said, I'm guessing you have them or can find them. No idea if it works with a controller (in general, Windows RT supports controllers, but no guarantee on app compatibility through something like DOSbox or an emulator).
There's one other advantage of Jailbreak that 6677 didn't mention: you can run an x86 emulation layer that (very slowly) allows running (a small number of) normal x86 programs. A few old games, like Heroes of Might and Magic 3, are known to work with it. It won't run anything very new or fancy - for example, even really old versions of Firefox don't work, although their installer will run - but sometimes something that hasn't been tested before is tried, and works out.
Something to consider about DOSBox: a lot of the games on GOG.com are 16-bit games that run in DOSBox. If you extract the DOSBox disk image and configuration and bring them over to the tablet, you can run them using the RT port of DOSBox as well.

egyptionsr2buff said:
Thank you that sounds amazing. Yea I use it mainly doing work at a clinic, but there is always downtime throughout the day. Playing some Old school quake/snes would be tight. for SNEs are the roms all on there or can you just download everysingle one you want? also do you need a controller?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everything I mentioned I do with the Surface keyboard, and I've got the type keyboard. The Surface itself can make use of an Xbox360 controller, but I've never tried to configure it in snes9x. A quick search on Google looks like people have used the X360 controller with snes9x on regular Windows, so it may work. I know the store version (snes8x) can use, as I tried it briefly once. I just don't usually have my controller with me, so using the keyboard is much more convenient. The store version has touch controls, but that is really tricky to use when you need precise movement in a game.
ROMs are not bundled with the snes emulator, but that's typical in the emulation world. I don't want to go into too much detail since it's against forum policy, but again, Google it a bit as it's pretty easy to find info on the subject.

[Q] Full Windows 8.1 or 10 (x86, not WinPho) on Asus ZenFone 2

I know this question will come with some confused comments and answers... so Ill ask the question and qualify my question with some examples why I am asking and of what I am not asking.
Question: What is the likelihood of getting/shoehorning Full x86 Windows 10 (or 8.1 until 10 releases) onto this phone?
Qualifying statements:
1. I am not asking about Windows Phone OS at all. Everyone knows Microsoft screwed the pooch during their shift from Windows Mobile 6.5 to Windows Phone 7 then again from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8. That is why so many of us jumped ship from Microsoft's Phone offerings over to Android in 2010. This is 5 years later and Microsoft might be able to get some market share back, but only if they pull their head out of their a$$....
2. (Example of irrelevant answer... Why do you want full Windows when there is Win RT or WinPho???lol!!!!LMFAO!!!! TrolllFACE!!!)
There are plenty of usage cases to justify full x86 Windows on a mobile device. Microsoft and Intel are pushing on the tablet market but for some reason they have not begun to crack the phone market with Full WinTel.... Simply put, If someone is willing to pick up a Windows 8.1 x86 tablet with 1GB or 2GB of RAM for $200 or $300 bucks then they should be ok picking up a similar device with 4GB of RAM and the ability to make calls.
3. (Another example of irrelevant answer...But Android!!!! It rulz!!!)
First off I am an avid android user. We started with My wife and I getting the EVO 4G in 2010, then EVO 3D in 2011 (I know...), then Note 2 in 2012, and My wife switching out the Note 2 for the Huawei Ascend Mate 2 last year. Im holding on to my Note 2 for the final stretch with its 9300 mAh Zero Lemon battery. All phones we've gotten have been rooted and customized by me. I use Bluestacks and/or Andy OS on all of my Windows PCs and have owned several Android Tablets. In short I prefer Android over Windows phone and iOS and whatever else is out there... Now in saying that, I feel a full Windows device in a phone with sufficient processor and RAM would be able to run Windows as its main OS and Android as an emulator to satisfy my Android needs.

Very well put, I'm also interested in this.
Sent from my MT2L03 using Tapatalk

Also interested in this!

I think this needs Microsoft's direct support. IMHO these are some blockades the community will be met with:
1. Since Android uses a boot.img as stage2, some work have to be done for the boot image to be able to chainload Windows. Vanilla installation goes out of the equation.
2. Figuring out how to chainload a proprietary OS properly is, well, hard.
3. It seems like the device uses some special Intel modem and wireless chipset. Porting won't be easy (Look at Intel PRO...)
4. Although 5.5in is GIGANTIC for a phone, maybe explorer or metro won't be able to fit in it?
5. Onboard storage is lackluster to host a full desktop Windows.
6. Windows doesn't even have a dialer.
But generally, this is a great idea! Being able to run x86 apps on a phone, oh the feels!

I'd be very interested if it would run full x86 or x64 Windows! However as stated, I doubt that will happen.
Even then it would be a bit limited and the main issue I would imagine to be space. The screen is quite small for a 1080p window to display on. I'd want to probably run a 720p res for larger buttons and such, might fit a bit better.
Perhaps if you could have it all run off a memory card, but then it would be rather slow to boot and cache stuff?

Here check out this small presentation. Something could be possible with the virtualization extensions that intel processor has.

This totally depends on :
- how well Asus releases the source code.
- Bootloader unlockable or not, i.e. ways to work around the secure boot.
I tried similar things on Lenovo K900 which is running Z2580. Lenovo's open source release was just horrible since even building the kernel was difficult due to lack of info.
I was able to eventually built the kernel with KVM enabled, but was having trouble signing the kernel for the bootloader.
Just force loading the kvm.ko was not successful either since the stock kernel had some feature missing required by KVM.
I would be interested to work on this phone again if we can form a group.
kazuken said:
Here check out this small presentation. Something could be possible with the virtualization extensions that intel processor has.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

chinabull said:
This totally depends on :
- how well Asus releases the source code.
- Bootloader unlockable or not, i.e. ways to work around the secure boot.
I tried similar things on Lenovo K900 which is running Z2580. Lenovo's open source release was just horrible since even building the kernel was difficult due to lack of info.
I was able to eventually built the kernel with KVM enabled, but was having trouble signing the kernel for the bootloader.
Just force loading the kvm.ko was not successful either since the stock kernel had some feature missing required by KVM.
I would be interested to work on this phone again if we can form a group.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure we can start a group on slack.com
some other things that also come to my mind:
wine for x86
docker for x86
debian chroot
wine already has some ARM support

This would likely be much easier... Notice the 'high end' system reqs?
http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/operators-and-oems
I think the biggest problem for Windows would be wrestling with the PowerVR-based gpu.. Those stupid things are usually a roadblock in just about every interesting project..

kazuken said:
sure we can start a group on slack.com
some other things that also come to my mind:
wine for x86
docker for x86
debian chroot
wine already has some ARM support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for ressurecting this old thread but you would definitely be able to run Linux X86 on chroot. Then through wine you'd be able to run a lot of windows apps. Only issue is that performance would be low *unless* you'd output the GUI to android's framebuffer (FB0) which would require a kernel supporting this (outputting to framebuffer) which in turn would need Asus releasing the kernel sources so that to bake FB support.
So yeah it's all doable even with relatively good performance and by outputting the image (through MHL or chromecast) into the big screen would give us a X86 PC on the go. In fact I'd prefer it from running windows X86 natively because then you'd be losing calls and notifications... Imagine your *phone* running all your PC's software (well almost all as wine often has issues). You can buy one of those 128gb micro sds and your "phone" would have plenty of space for your (PC) data...

Stevethegreat said:
Sorry for ressurecting this old thread but you would definitely be able to run Linux X86 on chroot. Then through wine you'd be able to run a lot of windows apps. Only issue is that performance would be low *unless* you'd output the GUI to android's framebuffer (FB0) which would require a kernel supporting this (outputting to framebuffer) which in turn would need Asus releasing the kernel sources so that to bake FB support.
So yeah it's all doable even with relatively good performance and by outputting the image (through MHL or chromecast) into the big screen would give us a X86 PC on the go. In fact I'd prefer it from running windows X86 natively because then you'd be losing calls and notifications... Imagine your *phone* running all your PC's software (well almost all as wine often has issues). You can buy one of those 128gb micro sds and your "phone" would have plenty of space for your (PC) data...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried it out. you can get GNUroot and GNUroot wheezy x86 on play store. I was able to get fluxbox with tightvncserver running (though no apps, but was able to get an image in vnc) i am now going to try lxde and then see if nomachine 4.0 will work. wine should be able to run photoshop cs2.

kazuken said:
I tried it out. you can get GNUroot and GNUroot wheezy x86 on play store. I was able to get fluxbox with tightvncserver running (though no apps, but was able to get an image in vnc) i am now going to try lxde and then see if nomachine 4.0 will work. wine should be able to run photoshop cs2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Problem with running your gui on a VNC server is that it is slow. It's (far) easier to setup though.
On my android machines I prefer to (basically) output an X Server window on the (machine's) frame buffer. You get real time performance (almost the same as if you had installed the OS natively), plus you get sound which is useful if one wants to run sound and video editing software (or plainly listen to music ). It's (quite) harder to setup but it has all been streamlined lately by a play store app named linuxdeploy (IIRC it has added X86 distros support lately).

Yeah... Don't use vnc, use xserver-xsdl . It's in the app store. Best Android X server. In your chroot, export DISPLAY=:0 after starting it up.
Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using XDA Free mobile app

ycavan said:
Yeah... Don't use vnc, use xserver-xsdl . It's in the app store. Best Android X server. In your chroot, export DISPLAY=:0 after starting it up.
Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a great solution too! Hadn't thought to recommend it. It's easy to setup too.
Still outputting directly to framebuffer instead of an xserver app is quite faster (even than that!). But I'd expect the Xserver-XSDL performance to be quite good too.

OMG, this is SO interesting. I have been looking forward to put windows desktop in my phone since ages. Virtualization never let you go any further than Winxp. But now, this is another story. I am thinking of getting one of my own to help with the testing
Keep it up guys!

I ran photoshop cs2, via xserver xsdl, takes a while to load but eventually does, but its very hard to drag windows via xserver xsdl. i tried with vnc and was able to open a picture taken from the zenfone's camera and adjust levels. its alot easier to use a physical mouse and keyboard. but here are some screenshots of it running all on the android. it took brute force to create the x with the paintbrush and to drag a window. I ran it at 720p, also at 1080p. photoshop loads a lot quicker using xserver xsdl vs vnc.

You can change mouse settings when you start up xserver-xsdl. By default it's set up like the screen is a laptop touch pad.
The other thing you might want to try is a different Windows manager. I prefer fvwm2 since it's very light.
Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using XDA Free mobile app

*irrelevant reply alert*
This takes me back to running Linux on the Windows-based XDA Exec. Those were the days.
Anyway, this is a great idea and you're finding some interesting workarounds, but I think you should be looking to get Windows to run natively. Sure, it doesn't have a dialler, but I'm sure someone can hook something up - especially if the interface is anything like the old Voice Modems from when we could only get our internets at 56kbps. (You kids don't know you're born! In my day, etc)
Meanwhile, in the Enterprise world where we try to reduce the costs of people having a whole processor each that they carry around with them, we're looking at using PCoIP to deliver a PC experience on a tablet. Sure, it's a little laggy (we're talking milliseconds on WiFi, though) but you get a lot of processing power, and if you're using Amazon you'll get NVidia rendering too. That's more for workstation graphics - CAD etc, rather than gaming. But then, if you're looking at installing Windows on a Phone, you're probably not going to be trying to play GTA5 on it.
Again, this reply is irrelevant because I realise you probably don't want to shell out $20-$40 per month on a virtual machine with a full Office suite. Plus, it's less fun to play with and not quite as much of an achievement to have set up something that works out of the box.

Native Linux 64 bit maybe, you get a much better OS, customizable, better resources management, open source, faster and waste less battery plus you can create your own mobile friendly interface just like Ubuntu Touch. Someone said it might be possible to port dialer, modem and other driver's concept since android is linux based. Microsoft is a handicapped development private code and as linux creator affirmed, its therefore a crappy OS lol There is steam on linux and it can run OpenGL games faster with the same hw due to uncluttered OS.
The hardest part will be GPU acceleration.

aziz07 said:
Native Linux 64 bit maybe, you get a much better OS, customizable, better resources management, open source, faster and waste less battery plus you can create your own mobile friendly interface just like Ubuntu Touch. Someone said it might be possible to port dialer, modem and other driver's concept since android is linux based. Microsoft is a handicapped development private code and as linux creator affirmed, its therefore a crappy OS lol There is steam on linux and it can run OpenGL games faster with the same hw due to uncluttered OS.
The hardest part will be GPU acceleration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The .Net Framework is already Open Source. It's likely Windows 10 will go Open Source at some point. It's said to be the "last version of Windows" - probably similarly to the way MacOS X hasn't been replaced with MacOS XI. (There will still be a market for desktops when we have 128bit CPUs, and they won't just stick with the same 64bit kernel.)