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Hi all,
I'm just a junior member and have no autual authority in the XDA-Developers Community so I hope this is the right place to put this thread. Moderators, please move it if I've got that wrong. I've just read this thread in the Development and Hacking forum:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=425167
and it raised some concerns in my mind which could present some fairly serious threats to the nature of this forum (i.e. developers' willingness to get involved). Here's a copy of what I posted, entitled "We NEED to see the bigger picture":
OK, I have read through this thread fairly quickly and I have some observations and some suggestions to make. Let me say that I am more of a “user” than a developer but I have made a few very small contributions on XDA-Developers. Please check my stats if you want to. Let me also say that I always look at the “bigger picture” in these situations.
Unfortunately what has happened to A_C over S2U2 is a consequence of capitalism. Businesses exist for the purpose of making money and extending their business. It is not so much a matter of trust or character but that the very purpose of a business is to make money and nothing else. The situation we’ve been presented with does however raise some concerning issues.
There are technicalities and more technicalities which people will continue to use to make money out of products and items of value they did not produce themselves. I don’t think anything we can say to businesses will prevent them doing this. For all the arguments we can present, they will have others and there would be little we can do to stop them TRYING to use freely developed software in this way. Businesses will have more money than we have to promote “their” products, and as we’ve already seen, unless we have a pro-bono lawyer, they will have more money for to defend their business and sales through the law and search engine optimisation (which is a very big business by the way!).
The point I am trying to make is that while this may be an isolated incident right now, there’s nothing to stop this happening again and again. We may well have “lost” A_C despite all the genuine and heart felt encouragement directed towards him so it seems to me that if we want to protect what we have, an environment where developers feel free to develop software for themselves and “us” with our support, we need to do more. What can we do?
We do have two critical factors on our side:
1) Community
2) Technical Expertise
Community - A community has a much greater power to change it’s destiny than any one individual – as demonstrated by the unfortunate situation A_C finds himself in. If we all pull together, or even just those of us more committed to this community, we will be able to overcome much more than we currently realise.
Technical Expertise – As stated above, I am not a developer but I am convinced that there is more technical ability available to this community than many software businesses could pay for with their entire budget, or even turnover.
I believe we must make use of these two strengths or suffer the consequences.
My basic suggestion is that a working group is set up from developers who contribute to this community with the sole purpose of writing a code which can be inserted into any ROM or software which clearly states that the software/ROM has been developed free of charge, and that if the “customer” has paid for it then they should ask for a refund and contact XDA-Developers to report the licence violation and receive the full free version of the software. Once developed this code can then be made available, with instructions, to any new developers who start to submit work to the community so that they don’t fall foul of the same experience as A_C.
Additionally could this code be hard coded into the software/ROM so that unscrupulous software sales companies can’t take it out (I.E. not just a .gif or .jpg splash that can be changed or removed)?
As this is a forum, the next step would be for people to share their views on these suggestions and we’ll see what happens!
Best wishes to A_C – hope you’re not feeling too bad.
I’m going to post this in the general forum as a new thread if there’s not one there already.
andrew-in-woking
I hope that this thread will engender some constructive discussion and lead to a better community for all of us.
Best wishes,
andrew-in-woking
the problem with adding code, is that it adds bulk. the classic example is Cubase audio software, where it is estimated that 50% of cpu power can be wasted in it constantly checking it's protection; and even this has been cracked by geniuses, though i think they have since 'retired' from the scene. anyway, i digress. with space at a premium with phones, getting into copy protection, nag screens, etc. is removing that space. plus from own experience and feedback from users, nag screens and reporting fraud options will get ignored. as 9 times out of 10 they have seeked the software out through unscrupulous sources. add to that, a developer has spent months streamlining their code, only to bolt on some fugly security, kinda depressing.
i dont think there is or will ever be a clear cut solution to copyright im afraid, i mean, look at windows lol.
I had no idea this was happening. Thanks for the heads up.
badaas said:
the problem with adding code, is that it adds bulk...
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I think the OP's suggestion is a good one. It doesn't need to be anything complicated or over the top. Simply text in the About screen will suffice.
I.e.
Help>>About>>"Widget v.1.xx, Developed on XDA-Forums as FREEWARE - If you've paid for this please report the seller to the proper authorities"
i think adding in the freeware statement would be a plus i think if A_C decided to add it in down at the buttom when you first start up S2U2 where it states what verison this is and A_C name would be a good time to have it scroll. If there were some way to have it keep marqueeing while the program is running or for it to do it when the screen wakes up i think as users of A_C's product it wouldn't affect me seeing this because the programs are just that great
Hi guys before some hours Microsoft announce a $5000 competition where they call us to submit and vote an idea for a windows phone 7 which will take place on the real devices with all others Microsoft apps free...
No development skills needed!!! you should just text your idea and describe it correctly and your idea will instantly complete other ideas for the best place. The inventor of the 1st idea will be prized $5000 for a nice holiday...
check out mine...
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43237689
have a nice day...
Andy
check out mine
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43241829
its so you can send & receive text & voice messages to & from the xbox to the phone
edit: dont forget to vote..for mine that is
nice idea
nice idea, do you do interesting my idea?
An Open Letter to Smartphone Users from the founders of appubator, inc.
appubator, inc. Suggests That Users Think Twice Before Participating In Microsoft 'App' Contest
This week, Microsoft announced a contest called "Hey Windows Phone, I Need This App". This contest offers a $5,000 prize to the person whose idea for a new Windows Phone application receives the most votes from the general public.
We at appubator, inc. want to suggest that people think twice before participating in this contest. While a $5,000 prize sounds attractive, there are many drawbacks to your participation.
1) Your great idea for a new smartphone app is no longer yours and out in the open for people to copy.
2) Microsoft is only commiting to develop one mobile app from the hundreds or thousands submitted.
3) No matter how successful your idea is, you will not participate in the revenue that your app provides above the $5,000 prize.
4) Your idea is limited to a single smartphone platform. More than 80% of US smartphone users are on other devices than Windows Phone and you're now missing the opportunity to make money from an app idea for those platforms.
We'd like to suggest instead that you visit our website at appubator.com. appubator develops new mobile apps for the leading smartphone platforms based on ideas submitted from the general public. Unlike the Windows Phone contest:
1) appubator allows you to keep control of your 'app ideas' by keeping them confidential. Just register at www.appubator.com and securely submit your idea to our evaluation team where it remains yours regardless if it is accepted for development.
2) appubator will develop as many apps as there are commercially viable ideas submitted. With appubator, we develop a significant % of the apps that are submitted (not just one as MS suggests in their contest). We've had over 300 submissions so far and have 35 apps under contract / development.
3) While appubator cannot pay $5,000 upfront to one lucky winner, we fund 100% of the app's development and sign a contract that gives each submitter 30% of future revenues.
4) We look to release apps based on approved ideas for all major smartphone platforms in addtion to Windows Phone. This increases the chances for the app to succeed and generate more money for you.
The Microsoft contest is certainly fun and a great way to see your name in lights.
On the other hand, if you'd prefer to have more control of how your ideas are used and want to make real money from the exploiding economy around mobile software and smartphones, be sure to come and visit apppubator at www.appubator.com.
thanks
thanks igolfchip i will take a look...
thank you all
thank you all who supported me (rank 32 of 264)
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedt...spx78x253Fbidx253D40032x2526scidx253D538x2526
keep voting...thank you all
That submission system is horrible, in every way possible.
I think that the one who developed it was TRYING to make is as bad, irritating and un user-friendly as possible.
Why the **** would you block the browsers back function AND open in new tab function. Also, the UI makes no sense at all. It took me several minutes to realize that there actually was a way to step back to the enteries list.
And. The idea at first place is horrible. Who the **** would use that?
a lot of people apparently. I found it pretty confusing as well...anyway heres my idea
~style~
sorry re did the link
style1 said:
a lot of people apparently. I found it pretty confusing as well...anyway heres my idea
~style~
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Click to collapse
you link doesnt lead to your idea try redoing it plz...thanks
Location based reminder
How about a Location based reminder application? it should be really usefull
Support my Idea
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43312565
thats a great idea, similar the the Else phone prototype I've been playing with for the past couple days.
~style~
igolfchip said:
appubator, inc. Suggests That Users Think Twice Before Participating In Microsoft 'App' Contest
This week, Microsoft announced a contest called "Hey Windows Phone, I Need This App". This contest offers a $5,000 prize to the person whose idea for a new Windows Phone application receives the most votes from the general public.
We at appubator, inc. want to suggest that people think twice before participating in this contest. While a $5,000 prize sounds attractive, there are many drawbacks to your participation.
1) Your great idea for a new smartphone app is no longer yours and out in the open for people to copy.
2) Microsoft is only commiting to develop one mobile app from the hundreds or thousands submitted.
3) No matter how successful your idea is, you will not participate in the revenue that your app provides above the $5,000 prize.
4) Your idea is limited to a single smartphone platform. More than 80% of US smartphone users are on other devices than Windows Phone and you're now missing the opportunity to make money from an app idea for those platforms.
We'd like to suggest instead that you visit our website at appubator.com. appubator develops new mobile apps for the leading smartphone platforms based on ideas submitted from the general public. Unlike the Windows Phone contest:
1) appubator allows you to keep control of your 'app ideas' by keeping them confidential. Just register at [removed] and securely submit your idea to our evaluation team where it remains yours regardless if it is accepted for development.
2) appubator will develop as many apps as there are commercially viable ideas submitted. With appubator, we develop a significant % of the apps that are submitted (not just one as MS suggests in their contest). We've had over 300 submissions so far and have 35 apps under contract / development.
3) While appubator cannot pay $5,000 upfront to one lucky winner, we fund 100% of the app's development and sign a contract that gives each submitter 30% of future revenues.
4) We look to release apps based on approved ideas for all major smartphone platforms in addtion to Windows Phone. This increases the chances for the app to succeed and generate more money for you.
The Microsoft contest is certainly fun and a great way to see your name in lights.
On the other hand, if you'd prefer to have more control of how your ideas are used and want to make real money from the exploiding economy around mobile software and smartphones, be sure to come and visit apppubator at [removed - new user].
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I think the main point of this Microsoft initiative is to allow regular users (not power enthusiasts) to get their ideas out and there and iterate in a community fashion. Already, I've been threads pop up on the site, with people contributing new features and fleshing out applications. Sure, the idea gets out there and is essentially public domain, but if the user truly believes in the idea, perhaps someone else, not necessarily Microsoft will pick it up.
Appubator sounds like a pretty neat business model, but the apps that do get submitted seem to go into a deep, dark hole. There's no visibility into how the final application will develop from the initial kickoff idea. And to play devil's advocate, there's little to stop you from 'rejecting' an idea, only to come up with another application that is but a variation on a theme. I am in no way saying that you have, or will do this.
Both models are valid, I'd just like to throw a somewhat counter-argument out there for people to consider as well. No offence intended at all, Appubator!
anaadoul said:
How about a Location based reminder application? it should be really usefull
Support my Idea
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43312565
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Hey lol, your idea is like mine!! hahaha its the same concept! only problem is that I put it first XD
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43302578
chuck232 said:
I think the main point of this Microsoft initiative is to allow regular users (not power enthusiasts) to get their ideas out and there and iterate in a community fashion. Already, I've been threads pop up on the site, with people contributing new features and fleshing out applications. Sure, the idea gets out there and is essentially public domain, but if the user truly believes in the idea, perhaps someone else, not necessarily Microsoft will pick it up.
Appubator sounds like a pretty neat business model, but the apps that do get submitted seem to go into a deep, dark hole. There's no visibility into how the final application will develop from the initial kickoff idea. And to play devil's advocate, there's little to stop you from 'rejecting' an idea, only to come up with another application that is but a variation on a theme. I am in no way saying that you have, or will do this.
Both models are valid, I'd just like to throw a somewhat counter-argument out there for people to consider as well. No offence intended at all, Appubator!
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Click to collapse
Thanks for replying to my posts! No offense taken at all.
You bring up few interesting points and since this is out in the public, I'd like to clarify a few things:
appubator isn't intended for power users. Its more for the 'average joe' who uses smartphones and might have a great idea but no understanding or resources to make it happen. By submitting an idea and our current high rate of approvals, they have a real chance of their app making its way to market.
As for your 'black hole' comment, we've worked hard to build a system that's based on secure submission of the idea and to provide timely feedback to the user. When submitted, we score the idea (which the user can see) and look to provide approval / rejection for most ideas within 30 days.
Your point about rejecting then doing variations is the farthest from our minds. We don't believe our business will work f we did not treat submitters fairly and regard their submissions with the highest levels of integrity. There's actually been a case where we independently had an idea prior to a submission, but to ensure that there were not concerns, we recognized the submitter's idea anyway and executed our rev. share agreement.
Basically, we at appubator think that throwing all these ideas out into the public domain is wasteful. There would likely be a dozen or more commercially viable concepts within and folks have better odds of making their $5,000 by working with appubator or other app development houses than this contest.
This is my idea, please comment, thanks!
heres my Automotive/nav App
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp?pbb_qsi=43443148&=PP_EntryDetail_538_PPIMEMAIL_PPIMEMAIL
Weather Alarm for Windows Phone
How about supporting my idea?
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp?pbb_qsi=43456444&=PPIMEMAIL
Weather Alarm is an app that checks your current location via my location service and then checks accuweather or other weather service for upcoming weather changes.
Just before the regular alarm clock ring time, the weather alarm checks the weather. If the forecast is significantly different from what it was the last couple of days, the screen flashes at the time of the alarm notifying the user of clothing/accessories he/she must carry for this day (ie. take the umbrella, take a hat and sunglasses, take water with you, take your coat, use non slippy shoes, wear sun lotion etc.)
How do you find my idea? If you like it, please follow the above link. Don't forget to click on that green button on that page saying: "Vote for this entry"
Thanks so much for your support!!!
Dimitris.
I'm supporting everyone who posts here. I truely hope someone from XDA wins. Microsoft owes its existence to this site, we've been fixing WM since forever, give us some love. I honestly think we should all get together, choose the best idea and have everyone we know vote for that one idea. We might be salting the waters but its for a good cause.
~style~
Halo4WP7
Created this one before the job posting for MS Game Studios for Mobile was even found. Now that we know there's a chance, let's boost it higher!
windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43474572
Just a reminder to all members deciding to vote for the ideas in this thread...
You can vote once per day until the end of the competition, ie July 8th, 2010.
So if you want to support us (and if you have the time of course while checking out XDA developer forums ), you can click on each of our idea links on this thread once a day.
Here is my idea for the Weather Alarm app..
http://www.windowsphone7.com/ineedthisapp/?pbb_qsi=43247062&=PBB_ineedthisapp_538_PPIMEMAIL
Thanks!
Dimitris.
PS: Don't forget to click on the green "Vote for this Entry" button of the idea pages
I just thought I'd start this thread to ask other developers about their opinion on the matter.
I spent many hours across several weeks reverse engineering the Samsung Galaxy S flashing protocol and then programming, testing and distributing Heimdall as open-source software.
Based on bandwidth consumption Heimdall has been downloaded anywhere between 2000 and 8000 times (depending on whether the source or binaries were downloaded). I have received no more than eight donations, a very sincere thank-you goes out to those eight people! Let's assume that 25% of the total number of downloads were repeat downloaders, so we have somewhere between 1500 and 6000 unique users. So only 0.134-0.534% of users actually donate. Those sorts of donation rates are barely able to cover the cost of bandwidth, if at all.
I know there are a lot of people out there who consider themselves avid supporters of open-source and open-source software. I wouldn't necessarily call myself one of those people, however I do believe there is definitely a time and a place for open-source software, Heimdall being a perfect example.
I also know a lot of people who distribute ROMs, apps, tools, mods etc. are hobbyists who do what they do in their spare time, and the community should be very thankful of that. As for myself, I work as a independent software/games developer, not particularly the most monetarily rewarding profession around.
As much as we do enjoy releasing free software for the community, it is difficult for developers such as myself to justify the work involved when there is little to no return, after all the bills need to be paid somehow.
My question is this, is it possible for developers releasing open-source software directly to the community, not large corporations, to make a living off their work? Furthermore, how do we encourage community members to give back to developers who have donated their time to the community?
Can't you use Google Code instead for hosting? or SourceForge? all provide free bandwidth IIRC.
Don't expect any donations as a rule, if you are expecting profit then either use ads on your website or charge.
I would have thought the primary reason for developing OSS on your phone is to improve the product you originally bought.
Cheers,
MiG
If you want free hosting, I can hook you up at http://www.sgscompilebox.dreamhosters.com/ that I'm paying for anyway for z4mod. Unlimited bandwidth/space. Offer goes out to anybody who wants to host anything for the SGS.
EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question: No, I don't believe it's possible to make a living off making 3rd party open source tools that only a fraction(technical users) of a device's users will use. If you want to make a living off open source, the best bet is through a company such as Canonical, or by creating applications focused at casual users with as much potential marketshare as possible. Or do what most people do: get a regular 'closed' job, and do open source stuff as a hobby.
MiG- said:
Can't you use Google Code instead for hosting? or SourceForge? all provide free bandwidth IIRC.
Don't expect any donations as a rule, if you are expecting profit then either use ads on your website or charge.
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I don't think you fully understand what I'm trying to discuss. The bandwidth costs are fairly negligible, especially if I'm approximately able to cover the costs with just eight donations. A developers time however is substantially more expensive, and in some ways the effort and intention is priceless
I'm not expecting profit as such, nor do I particularly wish this discussion to center around myself (I'm just using my statistics as an example). I'm just curious to know whether people think it is possible to be a "sustainable" open-source developer who contributes software directly to a community? As opposed to large open-source products targeted towards large corporations who pay technical support contracts.
I'm also not a big fan off stuffing ads down the throat of my user-base. Also, in this particular context I seriously doubt that sort of approach would work, especially if third-party free hosting (sourceforge, github etc.) is used.
MiG- said:
I would have thought the primary reason for developing OSS on your phone is to improve the product you originally bought.
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Not necessarily. In my particular case I've simply released a tool to further enable the community to do something that other users (myself included) could already do, in some capacity or another.
For most developers releasing open-source software isn't so much about improving something they own. It's more about providing something for a community to use and benefit from without constraints. It's not unreasonable to ask the community to support you in return. After all there is nothing that forces developers to ever release the software they develop, unless you've used GPL code which is another matter entirely.
MiG-, based on your answer I'm assuming you're saying, no you do not think it's possible, which is definitely a perfectly valid answer to questions I've asked. Although I would definitely love to hear what more community members, particularly developers, have to say about the topic.
RyanZA said:
If you want free hosting, I can hook you up at http://www.sgscompilebox.dreamhosters.com/ that I'm paying for anyway for z4mod. Unlimited bandwidth/space. Offer goes out to anybody who wants to host anything for the SGS.
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Bit of topic.. you can host roms?
DocRambone said:
Bit of topic.. you can host roms?
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Until someone stops me, sure.
RyanZA said:
EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question: No, I don't believe it's possible to make a living off making 3rd party open source tools that only a fraction(technical users) of a device's users will use. If you want to make a living off open source, the best bet is through a company such as Canonical, or by creating applications focused at casual users with as much potential marketshare as possible. Or do what most people do: get a regular 'closed' job, and do open source stuff as a hobby.
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I agree with pretty much everything except the part about targeting casual users in order to make money. In my experience technically inclined users, who have an appreciation for a piece of software, are substantially more likely to donate that casual users who lack the knowledge of the work involved. Of course selling software is something that can be more easily achieved when targeting a casual user base, especially if they know nothing of piracy. However it is generally not possible to sell "open-source" software directly.
Benjamin Dobell said:
I agree with pretty much everything except the part about targeting casual users in order to make money. In my experience technically inclined users, who have an appreciation for a piece of software, are substantially more likely to donate that casual users who lack the knowledge of the work involved. Of course selling software is something that can be more easily achieved when targeting a casual user base, especially if they know nothing of piracy. However it is generally not possible to sell "open-source" software directly.
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Of course it is. Why do you think all of these app stores and market place etc is all catching on? You're never going to get rich off it, but putting up a popular open source application with an advert (and the option to turn it off even) should be able to bring in a pretty good revenue! Social networking seems to do the best for these types of apps.
Also, you'd probably want to diversify if relying on ad money - one banner ad in 25 open source apps, with 100K users each could easily reach a lot of money. And it should be possible to crank out a simple, well made open source app that serves a definite purpose in under 3 months. So with some time investment, in a couple years you'd be able to live off it. No different from closed sourced apps when you you use advertising.
Most important thing though is to make something that
1) the average user understands what it does
2) does the job as simply as possible
3) actually helps the user
4) has as wide a potential market as possible
You could look at firefox as the ultimate in this type of thing.
This is all a lot of work though, I'm sure, and if you're after money, a regular desk job is almost guaranteed to work out better.
RyanZA said:
Of course it is. Why do you think all of these app stores and market place etc is all catching on? You're never going to get rich off it, but putting up a popular open source application with an advert (and the option to turn it off even) should be able to bring in a pretty good revenue! Social networking seems to do the best for these types of apps.
Also, you'd probably want to diversify if relying on ad money - one banner ad in 25 open source apps, with 100K users each could easily reach a lot of money. And it should be possible to crank out a simple, well made open source app that serves a definite purpose in under 3 months. So with some time investment, in a couple years you'd be able to live off it. No different from closed sourced apps when you you use advertising.
Most important thing though is to make something that
1) the average user understands what it does
2) does the job as simply as possible
3) actually helps the user
4) has as wide a potential market as possible
You could look at firefox as the ultimate in this type of thing.
This is all a lot of work though, I'm sure, and if you're after money, a regular desk job is almost guaranteed to work out better.
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Click to collapse
Agreed, I mostly meant that it's difficult to "sell" open-source software. If your software is truly open-source then users are likely to download it, compile it and then redistribute it for free, which is sort of reasonable given that it's meant to be open source.
However advertising in a free application is slightly different than selling an application and it does have a lot more potential to succeed. However depending on what you mean by "putting up a popular open source application" I might have moral issues with that. Unless the popular application is your own or you've substantially modified (added a UI etc) to an existing piece of open-source software. Although a lot less likely to happen if your app is free, if it is open-source there is still the chance someone else will distribute it for free, unless of course the non-code assets aren't open.
I definitely do believe that at the moment it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to live off the type of open-source software I initially described. It's a bit saddening though to realise how massively one falls short, hopefully this will change in the future.
About those donations. If I would use it, I would probably donate.
I worked my a** of for the community, providing ROMs and kitchens for 3 years for the HTC S710 and S740 and I got about 4 or 5 donations over that period of time. Sometimes it get's very frustrating, but hang in there, it's worth it after all (there would be no WM 6.5 on the Vox or the Rose without me (dare I say that ), but I wanted it anyway, so I made it and just released it for others as well)!
PS: SAP r3 is open source and it sells veeeeeery good
I think the community can recognize such invaluable work & devote a part of their donations to them, if they are using his software & really think its worth.
I think however small percentage it could be, it would make the developer feel wanted & make him continue devoting his valuable time.
I just read an article either today or yesterday regarding a conference of software developers for android community, & when one developer went to the podium & said he is earning a steady $1-$2 per day, people actually laughed. He retorted, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD. Android hasn't penetrated the markets YET like iPhone. So awareness & earnings are still low.
BTW, a nice GUI would change everything.
Just my 2 cents worth.
PS : In continuation to RyanZA's talk, I would like to mention that if you think you have something worth using, MAKE A LOT of noise about it. THAT's how people notice, use & donate. No one can understand a software's worth until you tell them. Like some WWii prime minister said, if you want the world to understand what you are telling, tell it like you are telling a donkey.
Ben, I think you need to differentiate between recognition, fame & money. Ideas are many have you tried http://www.ideaken.com/ ?
Benjamin Dobell said:
Agreed, I mostly meant that it's difficult to "sell" open-source software. If your software is truly open-source then users are likely to download it, compile it and then redistribute it for free, which is sort of reasonable given that it's meant to be open source.
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Most companies "built on open-source" provide binaries, and real support for those binaries, and earn a living from that. In an enterprise environment giving support can earn a lot of money (mainly because a lot of companies have policies to only use software/hardware that has decent support). On my last job we had to use a really crappy software, just because the (really) good alternative didn't had a support center in our country.
For the casual users: the marketplaces + ads are a good place to start. If you manage to create something that casual users will use, then it might pay of. Those users don't actaully care about the software being FOSS or not. Actually there aren't many people who care how free an application really is (except for most people working in IT or similar)
If bandwidth is an issue then host it over megaupload and such, problem solved.
ragin said:
BTW, a nice GUI would change everything.
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And give users the ability to think they are actually a power user. Most people here at xda can't write even simple scripts, but they do want to try out new and experimental stuff. (on the other hand there are a lot of users who want things that just work, for them give a simple gui saying: "DO DA STUFF")
EarlZ said:
If bandwidth is an issue then host it over megaupload and such, problem solved.
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I hate when people upload source code to megaupload. There's github, code.google.com and sf.net. sf.net is although quite old now, the other too are still great when it comes to hosting FOSS stuff.
Github is even nicer since they've added a big "Download" button for the end users.
how important is the SDK for you in general? If the windows SDk was bad, would you develop application for another mOS?
Do you think the SDK has an impact on the quality of you apps? Does it has an impact on your performance as a developer?
You need the SDK to develop on the phone. How important it is is kind of irrelevant since your motivation on developing on the platform tends to have little to do with the SDK.
Blackberry has one of the worst SDKs but if it became an insanely popular platform we would be developing for it, despite the SDK.
pillsburydoughman said:
You need the SDK to develop on the phone. How important it is is kind of irrelevant since your motivation on developing on the platform tends to have little to do with the SDK.
Blackberry has one of the worst SDKs but if it became an insanely popular platform we would be developing for it, despite the SDK.
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I have to disagree completely, especially if you consider how corporations would act. Many companies have to consider the tradeoff between the profits that are to be made, how it will affect the viewpoint of the Company and the cost of developing an application. If Blackberry has a very bad SDK and therefore the costs of developing an application are a lot higher and the resulting applications will cause negative remarks of the company, because of bad quality, then no Company in their right mind will consider making an application for Blackberry. If on the other Hand a Company says the SDK for Windows phone is very good, and therefore they can cheaply make a good application, it will very quickly cover it's own costs, improve the supported platform and have a positive effect on their public representation.
From a Hobbyist Point of view a good SDK will attract especially beginner developers but will also cause existing developers to spread a good word on the product.
From an end user perspective a good SDK will result in cheaper applications that will on average have a better quality, thus offering a better user experience and all in all a happier user who will recommend that platform to other users, thus increasing the size of the platform, attracting new developers, who further attract more customers, ...
That's all well an good but in reality that's not how it works. Very few companies make their own apps, they come to places like ours to get it done for them.
They don't care about how difficult it is to make, that's what they pay us for. If they want an app we create an app simple as that. We used to make BB software, now android and iphone are all the rage.
To give you an example windows phone 7 has one is the best sdks out there but no one is asking for windows phone apps (or windows 8 for that matter). It's irrelevant, if a company wants an app done they target the one with the biggest base and largest set of customers wanting to pay for said app. Hence iphone. Once the market share for WP grows it will attract more companies.
Yes, but you would for instance charge more for an app written in c++ and win32 for the simple reason that it costs you more time to write it. The more expensive an application is to make the less likely it would be for it to make itself profit. A larger market share is another but not the only factor of Profit. Windows Phone currently has a very small market share, thus often making it uninteresting because redeeming the costs is more difficult. Yet Windows Phone has still managed to attract a huge amount of developers, infact it managed to reach the 50000 app mark in less time than iOs did even though it was basically the last to enter the game thus meaning it had the most competition to deal with and it's user base is/was quite small.
Thanks you both for your replies. I appreciate your comments.
Regards
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
lapucele said:
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
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Click to collapse
just realised this may be the wrong subforum to post the above question. Could this thread be moved?
lapucele said:
just realised this may be the wrong subforum to post the above question. Could this thread be moved?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
There's always the cydia market place which I hear is still fairly profitable...up until recently I wasn't even aware that is was a paid market place, I had always been of the impression that it was a hackers market for people who 1) mod their device tweak it like us android users 2) jailbroken (but stock and no alternative to iTunes) 3) People who pirate apps.
However i have learned that it has quite a following an even some developers release on both iTunes and Cydia.
Anyway just my thoughts. I am in contact with a developer that is into the whole cydia thing so if you have any questions you want answers for give me a holla
James
Jarmezrocks said:
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
There's always the cydia market place which I hear is still fairly profitable...up until recently I wasn't even aware that is was a paid market place, I had always been of the impression that it was a hackers market for people who 1) mod their device tweak it like us android users 2) jailbroken (but stock and no alternative to iTunes) 3) People who pirate apps.
However i have learned that it has quite a following an even some developers release on both iTunes and Cydia.
Anyway just my thoughts. I am in contact with a developer that is into the whole cydia thing so if you have any questions you want answers for give me a holla
James
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wow thanks for the heads up! i've heard varying stories too. i totally didn't think of the 3rd party app stores.
lapucele said:
wow thanks for the heads up! i've heard varying stories too. i totally didn't think of the 3rd party app stores.
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Click to collapse
Just thought I'd mention as I only heard yesterday, but the newest edition of the app store for Apple is called AppCake for Apple. Apparently Apple is now going about systematically shutting down every 3rd party non-apple owned store including the non so legitimate suppliers of of Apple after market hardware products. That means everyone with anything that connects to an apple product that isn't apple or made by apple is a target. Geeese they don't let up do they? Developers mention that Apple will never be able to shut them down :silly: that they can and will do what they like with their iDevices cause they own them.
Oh and other thing to look out for if you go to Apple/iTunes, is this company Lodsys who are world renowned for being patent trolls who are systematically targeting individual developers for breaches in copy right for, get this......'in app purchasing' they claim that they invented it and are now suing several developers from iTunes (them personally) for using the iTunes supplied SDK for in app purchasing. Apple is doing the right thing and trying to defend these developers but the World IP org and US patents office can't do a god damned thing about it until things hurry up and get pushed through a ballot of senators to have groups like them shut down. Until then they are working their best and fastest with trying to sue as many people as they can! Unfortunately for most its a loosing battle as they don't have the money or resources to fight these bastards so they end up paying up. In an new interview I heard one company claimed it was cheeper to settle for 100K out of court than what it was to commit to defending them selves even though this group targeting them was 100% wrong.
But not meaning to scare you...or anything just keeping you filled in. Me personally I would write them a letter saying 4 words on one line followed by 4 words on a second line "Go f*%# your self" "See you in court" and go seek one of my dad's barrister friends to do it no win no fee. Screw that. I would be flaunting that I have in app purchasing sayin come at me bro
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/app-developers-lodsys-back
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/hey-patent-trolls-pick-someone-your-own-size
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/...t-patent-trolls-and-not-going-take-it-anymore
Jarmezrocks said:
Actually I clicked on here thinking myself that this was for "application porting" as I came from the front page, and then it wasn't till I saw you replied to your own thread with the above that I realised? I think there is a bug in the forums, not you posting in the incorrect location?
Anyway to discuss your topic, I have recently downloaded all the necessary stuff to do as you are considering. One thing to be careful of is the fact that Apple from my understanding will give you their wrath if they find out.
Apple software is ONLY to be run on Apple hardware, If they find out (and they have their ways from what I have heard) you instantly banned for life. I guess nothing stopping you starting again, but remember your app is pulled and you kind of couldn't get away with releasing it under a different name account again later on without them knowing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No you guys are right. This is for porting apps across platforms, but people seem to confuse it with ROM porting.
Q. I know pretty much zero about iOS, and generally have always been anti apple. Are you trying to say that using something like j2 on lets say a virtual box on windows, is somehow a detectable and bannable offense in apple land? It's late and i might be just be misreading, but would like to know.
Mostly because i picked up a job on an Android app, and have been talking a bit about putting the app out for iphones after I finish up the android version, but don't really know where to begin.
out of ideas said:
No you guys are right. This is for porting apps across platforms, but people seem to confuse it with ROM porting.
Q. I know pretty much zero about iOS, and generally have always been anti apple. Are you trying to say that using something like j2 on lets say a virtual box on windows, is somehow a detectable and bannable offense in apple land? It's late and i might be just be misreading, but would like to know.
Mostly because i picked up a job on an Android app, and have been talking a bit about putting the app out for iphones after I finish up the android version, but don't really know where to begin.
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Click to collapse
My Research and Understanding
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. To run Apple in a VM is in breach of their TOS and Usage policy. It also entitles them to seek prosecution also; so not just a ban from iTunes. Going by Apples past history I wouldn't put it past them? Although now with Tim Cook in charge of things I think Apple is going about things a bit more differently now? For better or worse (people had their opinions of Steve Jobs - personally I disliked him but did appreciate his success and achievements for what they stacked up to be, personal opinions aside it takes a great person to do such) Apple is starting to become a bit more valued in collaborations as this is what Tim Cook always wanted working for Apple that he was never able to have whilst Steve was the master of the helm. Tim Cook was more about getting the job done and sharing. Steve's ongoing vendetta litigations were not Tim Cooks choice and/or advice. He didn't want such things from what I have read? More recently his involvement in legal matters has been observed as retracted and no confronting; he has proceeded to do these actions as part of Steve Jobs dying wishes and nothing more.
As far as I can tell he wants to nothing more than to get things out of the way and over and done with so that he and his company can move on.
My thoughts on this as an observer in the mobile tech industry is that I think Apple has dropped the ball a bit, and it is probably far too little far too late. However with a company with that much money behind it? There's only speculations about what holds in the future of Apple? They are certainly not going away or going to fall in to ruins that's for certain.
What I mean is that, yes there has been a heap of legal stuff seen by Apple and most of it very negative, but my feeling is that this won't be the case here on into the future, so the likelihood of facing a court for breach of Terms of Use are likely to be very small. I am sure that editing a build.prop is considered a breach of Google's TOS for use of a device in their Playstore?
Suggestions
My suggestion is to give it a try I have had some issues setting up my VM but have got all the necessary resources including all the software. I have just become too busy and it is not high on the priority list at the moment. I wanted to try gain an understanding of how Apple detects it's visitors. I mean iTunes is cross platform Windows and Mac (There is no release for Ubuntu or Linux AFAIK? only Wine type hacks) I know when I visit the iTunes webpage I am automatically prompted to download a Windows installer package. So they must have some form of automatic detection? Being that the likes of Virtualbox uses a shared internet connection I would speculate that you would need to choose the correct adapter settings so that your VM is seen to be a running physical machine and not a able to be identified as a shared connection or virtualised connection?
I didn't get this far as my installation has many issues. I still have the VM though for future interest. Feel free to PM me if you give it a try and don't succeed and I am happy to share what things I discovered in my problem solving.
Understanding Limitations for Cross Platform Mobile Development
As for the porting to OS's I believe there are many offerings around now that provide developers with a cross platform arrangement. Essentially only the UI resources need to change and then that plugs into a framework structure for your application to run in. You compile the code individual applications that are specific to the platform but you ARE able to develop your main code independent of the platforms. Languages such as Flex or Rubi on rails are going to be your best bet from my research?
Things You Should Consider
1. Single code repository
2. Individual application frameworks - compilation of application runtime for independent OS type
3. Limitations are stipulated and governed by what is allow at the lowest possible denominator. i.e. You can only build code into your single code repository that can accessed by the functionality of both(or all) platforms. What I mean is that there is no use building a single code repository that uses a function that is limited on one platform and not the other, another example is restrictions dictated to you by the likes of such companies like Apple. They have a strict guidelines and what is potentially available to you may not be in its context. Just because certain functionality is available to you in the Apple platform and you have even seen it in use on Apple devices does not necessarily mean that you can build and release it. In it's context Apple may not like what you are doing with your app and not approve it.
Your single point of code and it entirety has just shrunk in functionality to both devices now. So be careful and Anticipate what you might think the outcome is for your Application facing such scrutinisation and what it could possibly mean for your project as a whole?
On this note I have heard of developers making scripts and add-ons for their said central repository that allows them to restrict things ats compile time. For instance having greyed out selections in menus and a toast like notification to users like "Sorry this functionality is only available to Android users" and things like that.
Hope this helps contribute towards people considering on such ventures. Do your research. Find out what types of apps have been rejected from being published and find the reasons for why?
lapucele said:
Wondering if it's worthwhile before I invest time in creating a Mac OS X VM + Xcode to port my android apps to iOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will check it in next week