Develop Bugs

Camera Noise :(

I've seen threads saying you don't buy a phone for its camera, but the noise from the Touch Pro 2's camera is unbelievable! Attached are 3 pictures, one from the Touch Pro 2, one from the Touch HD, and one from the Touch Diamond 2.
All were shot at default settings, at 3m pixels, in well lit indoor light, then selectively cropped and magnified by 200% to highlight the noise levels. The Pro 2 even shows an enormous amount of noise outside in bright light!?

try to set the ISO as low as possible.. 100 for example

Does anyone know if the problem with the camera is hardware or just a poorly made camera driver? as I have had a 3.2 mp phone camera before and it seemed to take better pics.... Strange dont you think?

digicams
well, without going too much into the physics of camera sensors, some rule of thumbs:
- the smaller the CCD sensor (for same resolution), the smaller the pixels, the greater the noise!
- you cannot build a good camera without good optics / lenses. usually, mobile phone cams have very poor lens quality - don't expect anything
- you can correct noisy pictures to some extent by post-processing (can be done by the cam HW itself or by SW) but you'll loose details.
consequences:
- if you want to shoot nice photos, buy a digital camera
- if you still want to shoot photos with your mobile, make sure light conditions are bright!

shadixs said:
try to set the ISO as low as possible.. 100 for example
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I've tried that, and whilst outdoor pictures in good light are ok, indoor ones at 100 ISO come out blurry because a higher ISO speed is needed.

terta said:
well, without going too much into the physics of camera sensors, some rule of thumbs:
- the smaller the CCD sensor (for same resolution), the smaller the pixels, the greater the noise!
- you cannot build a good camera without good optics / lenses. usually, mobile phone cams have very poor lens quality - don't expect anything
- you can correct noisy pictures to some extent by post-processing (can be done by the cam HW itself or by SW) but you'll loose details.
consequences:
- if you want to shoot nice photos, buy a digital camera
- if you still want to shoot photos with your mobile, make sure light conditions are bright!
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I understand all of this, but I'm merely showing the difference between 3 "similar" HTC devices, where two are "acceptable" and one seems to exhibit an enormous amount of noise?

as you also wrote, "similar" in quotemarks...
- we don't know which camera HW is mounted in the devices (there can be cams from different OEM vendors even in the very same type of device depending on production series)
- we don't know what post-processing software (with which settings) is used...
I'm not surprised at all by the miserable quality
/edit: sorrily, I cannot see the so-called EXIF info in the pics (the forum engine cuts this out), from which we could see the parameters with which the images were taken (eg. which ISO sensitivity was applied, etc.)

what is the difference between eis 2.0 in pixel camera and old one in nexus 6p ?

i saw in google pixel specs that include EIS 2.0 " electronic image stabilizer " , and does not include OIS " optical image stabilizer " , so i have nexus 6p is it mean that i have old version of EIS ?
what is the version of EIS in nexus 6p and what is the deference between two and can recorde 4k with EIS ?
the answer will decide to buy pixel or not , because video recording important to me .
thank you in advance

ali8383 said:
i saw in google pixel specs that include EIS 2.0 " electronic image stabilizer " , and does not include OIS " optical image stabilizer " , so i have nexus 6p is it mean that i have old version of EIS ?
what is the version of EIS in nexus 6p and what is the deference between two and can recorde 4k with EIS ?
the answer will decide to buy pixel or not , because video recording important to me .
thank you in advance
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From what I've gathered the stabilization in the 6p is purely software based.
On the pixel however, Google has tied the camera to the gyroscope. The gyroscope polls 200 times a second to stabilize the image. So while it doesn't have Ois, it's not just software on the pixel.

scandalousk said:
From what I've gathered the stabilization in the 6p is purely software based.
On the pixel however, Google has tied the camera to the gyroscope. The gyroscope polls 200 times a second to stabilize the image. So while it doesn't have Ois, it's not just software on the pixel.
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tigercranestyle said:
^^^ what this guy said, though i thought i heard it polled the gyroscope 2000/second. looked around, but can't remember where i read/heard it. but yeah, @ali8383, 6p is strictly software based while pixel is sw/hw.
also the nexus 6p couldn't use eis to record 4k. the pixel can.
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Thank you for explaination

Could the 6P not poll its gyro also given the software?

B3501 said:
Could the 6P not poll its gyro also given the software?
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Probably doesn't have the CPU power to handle everything needed... kind of how HDR+ is way better on the Pixels. That, or Google is pulling shady moves and purposely hindering past devices to push new product.

I don't know what they are using for stability, but I did notice the pictures from the Pixel phones were much more sharper and detailed. Check out this video I made of a real world camera test on youtube. I got to play with the actual phones a few days before they came out and this was the first things i checked out. Just google techplughd. Thanks

This might help (go to minute 28)
https://www.dpreview.com/news/9782565306/google-launches-pixel-and-pixel-xl-smartphones
EDIT...the video in the link isn't set to the right time, I will tell you what time the video stabilization is shown.

4redstars said:
This might help (go to minute 28)
https://www.dpreview.com/news/9782565306/google-launches-pixel-and-pixel-xl-smartphones
EDIT...the video in the link isn't set to the right time, I will tell you what time the video stabilization is shown.
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thank you i watched the video again and understand now how it works .

Even when it seems a nice feature, the lack of OIS is still a sin in 2016 and for the price they pretend to charge.
Besides this, pinging the gyroscope 200 times per second is still more expensive (in terms of processing) than just add the proper hardware.
I don't believe this kind of stabilization could be better than normal EIS, so I'm staying skeptical until I see real conditions videos.

Here's a really good explanation of OIS vs EIS and being a current Nexus 6p user lowlight has been phenomenal so I'm excited about the Gyroscope and don't even care about not having OIS really.
https://9to5google.com/2016/10/10/g...firms-that-eis-will-still-work-with-4k-video/

I have a guess why no OIS, think this , without a OIS Gyroscope data perfectly match how camera lens moves, and software can pull the data out to correct the image, with OIS, the data from Gyroscope doesn't match the lens move any more, the EIS can only use the data from the camera to do stabilization which is less effective (cost more CPU and worse result). Some prople may argue OIS hardware can do the work, to be honest, OIS can offset some hand shake during low light taking pics, but during video recording, that little OIS can offer very little help smooth out the image, which actually not worth losing the ability to actually use Gyroscope to correct the image which can create more stable image. and Consider the pixel size of the camera is very large, much larger than even note 7, the low light shutter speed is actually fast enough so OIS really can't make much difference here. I use GS7 and I do notice taking low light pics take longer expose time, but google claim the pixel phone doesn't, which proves what I am guessing here. Let's see some real life test before jump to a conclusion, OIS is good, unless it is a big rig or on a big camera. On a phone, we just pick whatever works.

Does the Pixel have any sort of non-software based image stabilization for photos? (Gyroscope stabilization has only been mentioned for videos).

4redstars said:
Here's a really good explanation of OIS vs EIS and being a current Nexus 6p user lowlight has been phenomenal so I'm excited about the Gyroscope and don't even care about not having OIS really.
https://9to5google.com/2016/10/10/g...firms-that-eis-will-still-work-with-4k-video/
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jeffonion said:
I have a guess why no OIS, think this , without a OIS Gyroscope data perfectly match how camera lens moves, and software can pull the data out to correct the image, with OIS, the data from Gyroscope doesn't match the lens move any more, the EIS can only use the data from the camera to do stabilization which is less effective (cost more CPU and worse result). Some prople may argue OIS hardware can do the work, to be honest, OIS can offset some hand shake during low light taking pics, but during video recording, that little OIS can offer very little help smooth out the image, which actually not worth losing the ability to actually use Gyroscope to correct the image which can create more stable image. and Consider the pixel size of the camera is very large, much larger than even note 7, the low light shutter speed is actually fast enough so OIS really can't make much difference here. I use GS7 and I do notice taking low light pics take longer expose time, but google claim the pixel phone doesn't, which proves what I am guessing here. Let's see some real life test before jump to a conclusion, OIS is good, unless it is a big rig or on a big camera. On a phone, we just pick whatever works.
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There is no "data" from OIS, is just a mechanical system in order to compensate any movement made bu the user. The compensation is immediately and there is no need to process anything, and that's why is the preferred for most of the people. Besides, OIS help a lot with low light pictures and even when the Nexus 6P was really capable, the addition of OIS could have make a formidable experience in camera.
https://youtu.be/l5d2F6nP5MY?t=25s
EIS can't help with pictures, is only used for video, and even when it does somehow the job, the results are not so good, and it tends to have a lot of jelly effect. When you have OIS available, you can also make it work in conjunction with EIS and the results are awesome. Another point for the OIS is that it works with all resolutions, while EIS is dependant on the resolution and the processing power.
You can think this: best smartphone's cameras are the ones which include OIS, and they present really decent results even in low light. OIS helps you both in photo and video, while EIS is only for video.
I changed some months ago from a phone with OIS to one that doesn't have it, and I can say it's a world of difference in detail, even when the second one has better camera in paper, and when you mix the OIS and EIS, you get a really nice stabilized video without having to sacrifice much.
sabesh said:
Does the Pixel have any sort of non-software based image stabilization for photos? (Gyroscope stabilization has only been mentioned for videos).
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Exactly my point, Google is presuming about its new camera and its new stabilization, but most of the people take more photos than videos the whole time, and as far as I know, OIS is the only way to proper "stabilize" when taking pictures. Besides this, I would love to see manual controls and long exposure in this camera to see how good it does considering the lack of OIS and see if it's on pair with other smartphones.

Galaxo60 said:
Even when it seems a nice feature, the lack of OIS is still a sin in 2016 and for the price they pretend to charge.
Besides this, pinging the gyroscope 200 times per second is still more expensive (in terms of processing) than just add the proper hardware.
I don't believe this kind of stabilization could be better than normal EIS, so I'm staying skeptical until I see real conditions videos.
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But think about it. OIS is usually requested due to it performing better in low light conditions and stabilize the video (it's not to prevent blurry pictures). Google opted to go with a larger sensor that has a larger pixels, which in turn offer much better performance in low light. They then stabilized the camera with the gyroscope to prevent the jelly effect during recording. It's just a different take on the camera that will probably work just as well. Even better maybe.
Google has stated that the camera has a special core dedicated to it. Meaning processing power isn't lost at all.

scandalousk said:
But think about it. OIS is usually requested due to it performing better in low light conditions and stabilize the video (it's not to prevent blurry pictures).
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Wrong, OIS help you a lot by taking pictures in low light condition with a long exposure and prevent the blurry pictures, and that's why is a really nice adition to have.

Galaxo60 said:
Wrong, OIS help you a lot by taking pictures in low light condition with a long exposure and prevent the blurry pictures, and that's why is a really nice adition to have.
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Longer exposure time means that the camera is able to capture more light... Guess what else captures a lot more light? The large 1.55 micron pixels that the pixel phone has.
Taking pictures in the dark results in more noise, not blurred pictures perse.

With the f2.0 aperture, the pictures will have less depth vs a f1.7/1.8 aperture. Is that correct?
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

scandalousk said:
Longer exposure time means that the camera is able to capture more light... Guess what else captures a lot more light? The large 1.55 micron pixels that the pixel phone has.
Taking pictures in the dark results in more noise, not blurred pictures perse.
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I agree with you in these points, but the Nexus 6P has the same camera and still produces some unexpected results time to time, so if Google nailed it with this, I think many people would be happy.
This is some test in low light, and it seems focus is still messed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbLZq52fVQM

Galaxo60 said:
I agree with you in these points, but the Nexus 6P has the same camera and still produces some unexpected results time to time, so if Google nailed it with this, I think many people would be happy.
This is some test in low light, and it seems focus is still messed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbLZq52fVQM
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The Nexus 6P does not use the same camera as the Pixel phones. It's a different sensor. Although both phones have 1.55 micron pixels. The Nexus 6P also doesn't use any hardware based stabilization like the Pixel phone either.
And while focusing didn't happen in that videos. It's a single instance where OIS wouldn't have made a difference since the Nexus 6P did focus.
The best thing to do is just wait and see. I'm sure Google will give us something stellar.

scandalousk said:
The Nexus 6P does not use the same camera as the Pixel phones. It's a different sensor. Although both phones have 1.55 micron pixels. The Nexus 6P also doesn't use any hardware based stabilization like the Pixel phone either.
And while focusing didn't happen in that videos. It's a single instance where OIS wouldn't have made a difference since the Nexus 6P did focus.
The best thing to do is just wait and see. I'm sure Google will give us something stellar.
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This looks pretty nice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oftbNhz8fU

Hdr, Hdr+ Hdr+Enhanced

Still not sure what is the best option, hdr+ enhanced definitely takes the longest to process but which do you guy's think is the best image?
Edit, have no idea why xda has rotated the 1st image as all three were taken in portrait mode, (not portrait camera mode)

I did some test and it seems that hdr+ enhanced protect the highlights more,so higher dynamic range.
Seem like google hdr and normal hdr combined.

Yeah it does seem like that, the clouds don't look right with no hdr at all, but with hdr+ hdr enhanced they look better, makes me wonder if this camera would have got as high reviews if it wasn't for Google's hdr modes ?

I think the software what stand here,i see lot of phones with same camera sensor but they got different quality because of the software.
What makes me disappointed about sony's phones is the bad software they use for their cameras, and the fact that most of our phones have sony's sensors.
So the software is a game changer and google has the perfect example.

gm007 said:
I think the software what stand here,i see lot of phones with same camera sensor but they got different quality because of the software.
What makes me disappointed about sony's phones is the bad software they use for their cameras, and the fact that most of our phones have sony's sensors.
So the software is a game changer and google has the perfect example.
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Yes it does seem true, most of the latest sensor's seem to be very similar, Google's software is the best and the pixel 1 and 2 are very good examples of it, without hdr doesn't look much different to my s8+ to be honest.

RAW capture in Nokia Camera | My Google Camera opinion.

Recently I got my Nokia 6.1, well first thing I did was download Arnova's Google camera and Potter's Night Sight Google Camera.
Maybe it's me buy I wasn't able to find RAW capture in default camera app. Need help with this because I liked stock camera features.
as for Google camera, both cameras with Super photo settings, I noticed high amount of noise. Check photo corners
Both in night sight and HDR+ modes, so I'm sticking with stock camera, and using Gcam HDR+ only for selfies. Disappointed.

In poor light conditions, dslr-s also have noise in the final image, so you can't expect miracles from a sensor, that is as big as needle pin, compared to APS-C or FF sensors, which have way more area for gathering light. Combine that with the poorer high ISO performance, the lack of long exposure time, and the lack of variable aperture - I'm really amazed what the computational technology of GCam ports are capable of doing in low light, HANDHELD!!! Today I made some tests, and with nightmode I got results, that would require a tripod for my camera to make an image with comparable quality.
Stock camera doesn't have RAW support and RAW doesn't "eliminate" noise - on the contrary - in some situations, GCAM copes better than me in editing the noise out and preserving the detail (I do it in lightroom).
So for now, GCam with nightmode is quite a thing, given the limited hardware of every smartphone camera.

bo6o said:
In poor light conditions, dslr-s also have noise in the final image, so you can't expect miracles from a sensor, that is as big as needle pin, compared to APS-C or FF sensors, which have way more area for gathering light. Combine that with the poorer high ISO performance, the lack of long exposure time, and the lack of variable aperture - I'm really amazed what the computational technology of GCam ports are capable of doing in low light, HANDHELD!!! Today I made some tests, and with nightmode I got results, that would require a tripod for my camera to make an image with comparable quality.
Stock camera doesn't have RAW support and RAW doesn't "eliminate" noise - on the contrary - in some situations, GCAM copes better than me in editing the noise out and preserving the detail (I do it in lightroom).
So for now, GCam with nightmode is quite a thing, given the limited hardware of every smartphone camera.
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Well I am photographer myself and I understand what you said, but in my case even with ISO100 and 3 sec shutter with tripod final image has artifacts not noise. I noticed that even in daylight, somehow after phone
restart I got less of that, so possibly it was software bug.
So far I tested Footej Camera and Momento Pro Camera both of same allow saving in RAW , however they don't support long shutter speed above 1 sec.
FV-5 camera also is good, saves RAW format and also is pretty well.
As for Google Cam, I use it for selfies, they are a lot detailed, for video I recommend Cinema 4K , you get decent quality with 200mbps bitrate (sample)
And software stabilisation in that software is quite decent, make sure you shoot in 1080p for stabilisation to work.

I tested with lightroom camera, and sadly, I should agree with you, but I don't think it's a software bug. It's either the capability of the sensor (reason one for the short maximum long exposure time), or just fast overheating of the sensor (less plausible).
I've seen a comparison between pixel 3 night mode vs a7riii camera - it's amazing, and has nothing in common with the noise in 6.1. And this makes me think of a third reason - as this program is a port, it might have special algorithm for cleaning the noise of the pixel sensor, which doesn't work for ours. This theory can be checked by asking someone to take a comparable long exposure with pixel 3 in dng, with a third party program.

Will ported GCam take advantage of the S20 Ultra hardware?

Hello,
I have a silly question but I am very curious about it so I thought I would ask the experts .
Would a ported Google Camera take advantage of the S20 Ultra hardware or would it produce exactly the same photos as on Pixel? For example, would the Portrait mode improve for photos from the rear camera since S20 Ultra has ToF sensor and Pixel doesn't?
Or would pictures in general improve assuming there would be pixel binning from S20 Ultra and Google's HDR+?
Thank you for your insight

Rule of thumb is GCAM will always increase quality, Historically a custom build would need to be built and will most likely need root to take advantage of all 3 cameras. Most likely it will only be main cam.

Enigma_cpl03 said:
Rule of thumb is GCAM will always increase quality, Historically a custom build would need to be built and will most likely need root to take advantage of all 3 cameras. Most likely it will only be main cam.
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So essentially while one could use GCam in certain situations it would never be a 100% replacement of the Samsung camera app, right? That's a shame, from the S20 Ultra reviews the picture quality (HDR) looked quite inconsistent which is not something I ever experienced with my Pixel, hence the idea of using GCam with S20.
I was especially curious about portrait mode from the rear camera with ToF which my Pixel doesn't have -> hopefully improved object separation, and Night Sight (if pixel binning is done on hardware level + software processing from Google).

I'm guessing pixel binning is done on hardware, so you'll only get 12MP photos from the main sensor using GCam. Historically only the main sensor + wide angle are exposed via camera2 API by Samsung, so those lenses will likely work fine. Remains to be seen if telephoto is exposed as well, GCam on that hardware zoom could be dope.

kvell36 said:
I'm guessing pixel binning is done on hardware, so you'll only get 12MP photos from the main sensor using GCam. Historically only the main sensor + wide angle are exposed via camera2 API by Samsung, so those lenses will likely work fine. Remains to be seen if telephoto is exposed as well, GCam on that hardware zoom could be dope.
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Pixel binning is done on the SW side. You can't change the size of the sensor hardware wise. It's always a 108mp sensor, and the SW bins it down to 12mp.

VZTech said:
Pixel binning is done on the SW side. You can't change the size of the sensor hardware wise. It's always a 108mp sensor, and the SW bins it down to 12mp.
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Well yea it's done in the software but I mean to GCam it'll likely show up as a 12MP sensor due to the firmware Samsung will bake into the ROM, meaning for our purposes it's essentially at hardware level. In their camera app the default is 12MP so that will likely be the format exposed. You see this with the selfie cameras in current Samsung phones which are 10MP but cropped to 6.5MP by default, and that's the only resolution we get in 3rd party apps.

kvell36 said:
Well yea it's done in the software but I mean to GCam it'll likely show up as a 12MP sensor due to the firmware Samsung will bake into the ROM, meaning for our purposes it's essentially at hardware level. In their camera app the default is 12MP so that will likely be the format exposed. You see this with the selfie cameras in current Samsung phones which are 10MP but cropped to 6.5MP by default, and that's the only resolution we get in 3rd party apps.
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I'm no expert, but I'm not sure this is the case. Guess time will tell.

Do you know if Samsung offer some custom camera SDK?
I mean Camera2 May be insufficient for the 108mp nonabinning sensor. Your average demosaic algorithm will make pitiful mess out of it.
So I think anything but dedicated software will make mess out of the camera.
Ideally one would like to set different exposure timing for the 9 sub pixels and do some weird maths to get large sensor like dynamic range for example. That is what is hot about this sensor. Running stupid software written for regular 12m sensor is waste.

I just took some photos at Best Buy, dont think Gcam is needed. Pics looked really good.

My original comment hurt someone's feelings. I have edited it because of that.

_Dennis_ said:
But, all the reviews are crap and you canceled your phone.....
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Why are you a wiseasz? I said i was going to return it, if it wasn't any good. Your post is is unnecessary.

My original comment hurt someone's feelings. I have edited it because of that.

plant_ said:
So essentially while one could use GCam in certain situations it would never be a 100% replacement of the Samsung camera app, right? That's a shame, from the S20 Ultra reviews the picture quality (HDR) looked quite inconsistent which is not something I ever experienced with my Pixel, hence the idea of using GCam with S20.
I was especially curious about portrait mode from the rear camera with ToF which my Pixel doesn't have -> hopefully improved object separation, and Night Sight (if pixel binning is done on hardware level + software processing from Google).
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In my opinion, it is way too early to put much stock in any reviews being done on the S20 Ultra camera. It is so early - only a few handsets out right now - more will be shipped this week - and like most past samsung devices, Updates that improve and often fix issues that were discovered pre launch or even post launch, will surely address the issues (most if not all) that have been raised by these early reviews.
Bottom line, Samsung is putting a lot into the success of this phone and most of that success will be driven by it's camera. You can be sure that Samsung will do everything possible to make it the best that it can be. IMHO.

Is there currently a version compatible with the s20 ultra?

Eckono42 said:
Is there currently a version compatible with the s20 ultra?
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try Urnyx05-v2.3
https://www.celsoazevedo.com/files/android/google-camera/f/changelog1016/
I tested previously on a demo unit (snapdragon); the main (12mp) and ultrawide lenses seemed to capture and save images; tele lens did not toggle though

Thanks I sure will.

I think if eventually will, the level of functionally ported over will be a different thing.